When Father Doesn't Know Best, Part 2
Republished, with permission, from Voice magazine, Sept./Oct 2011. Read Part 1.
Child discipline and the Bible
Once upon a time Father knew best, and once upon a time we allowed Him to teach us how to parent. In Deuteronomy 8:3, God acknowledges humbling Israel and allowing them even to go hungry (of course, only to a point), calling it parental discipline (Hebrew yaser, LXX Greek paideusai) in Deuteronomy 8:5. Solomon counsels his reader not to reject the Lord’s discipline (same Hebrew and Greek roots as in Deuteronomy 8) and reminds that the Lord reproves those He loves, “as a father the son in whom he delights” (Prov. 3:11-12). Solomon suggests. further, “reproofs for discipline are the way of life” (Prov. 6:23b), “whoever loves discipline loves knowledge” (Prov. 12:1), and “a wise son accepts his father’s discipline” (Prov. 13:1a).
Not only does Solomon communicate the importance of discipline, but he also relays an important method, saying, “He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently” (Prov. 13:24), and “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him” (Prov. 22:15). He adds, “Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you beat [or smite] him, he will not die” (Prov. 23:13). From these contexts it is easy to see that Solomon is not advocating cruelty and physical damage. Rather, in no uncertain terms Solomon portrays physical discipline as an expression of love for the purpose of training and fostering growth—and according to Solomon, it has to hurt.
In addition to discussing purpose and method, Solomon also expresses the urgency of parental discipline: “Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death” (Prov. 19:27); “You shall beat him with the rod and deliver his soul from Sheol” (Prov. 23:14). Solomon contends that if a parent is not disciplining forcefully (causing pain) and intentionally (with love and for growth), that parent is sentencing his child to walk a path endangered by stupidity (Prov. 12:1b), poverty and shame (Prov. 13:18a), self loathing (Prov. 15:32a), straying from knowledge (Prov. 19:27), foolishness (Prov. 22:15), and even premature death (Prov. 19:18; 23:14).
Wow. Those are strong words, indeed. Surely, we can’t take Solomon seriously right? Jesus acknowledged the great wisdom of Solomon (Matthew 12:42), and the writer of Chronicles tells us from where this wisdom came, and consequently why we must take Solomon seriously:
God said to Solomon, “Because you had this in mind, and did not ask for riches, wealth or honor, or the life of those who hate you, nor have you even asked for long life, but you have asked for yourself wisdom and knowledge that you may rule My people over whom I have made you king, wisdom and knowledge have been granted to you. And I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings who were before you has possessed nor those who will come after you.” (2 Chron. 1:11)
Particularly notable to me, considering the occasion of this article, is that last phrase: “…nor those who will come after you.” While this is a specific reference to forthcoming kings of Israel, nonetheless, I wonder if Jose Longoria would consider his statement to have a greater weight of wisdom than Solomon’s teachings on discipline. I must strongly commend Judge Longoria for his desire to ensure that children are protected in accordance with the law. He is probably familiar with many cases in which children have been greatly harmed by parental irresponsibility and cruelty. For example, a Texas man was recently arrested for allegedly causing the death of his two year old daughter by a spanking episode (Fox News, viewed 10/3/2011). Still, I must consider Judge Longoria to be strongly mistaken in his consideration of how such protection should be accomplished: eliminating spanking altogether. His statement certainly is incompatible with the biblical concept of discipline.
Of course, the biblical data on parental discipline is not limited to the Hebrew Bible, but is also prominent in later Scripture as well. Paul exhorts fathers, “do not provoke your children to anger; but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord” (Ephesians 6:4). In this passage Paul employs the same Greek term, translated discipline, as is translated by the LXX of Moses’ and Solomon’s admonitions. In this context we discover that discipline is part of a three-pronged parental approach that additionally includes instruction (the non-painful aspect of teaching) and an acute sensitivity on the part of the parent to avoid the potential provocation that can so easily accompany the instructive and disciplinary processes.
The writer of Hebrews further indicates that discipline is foundational to the relationship of parent and child, that the human parent-child relationship illustrates the relationship between God and His children, and that though discipline is sorrowful, its results are joyous. The words are poignant and worth repeating here:
It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (Heb. 12:7-11)
Finally, Christ proclaims, “Those whom I love I reprove and discipline” (Rev. 3:19a). Ultimately, our discipline comes from Him and serves His purposes. We understand from these passages that discipline is a correction and pruning process that usually (if not always) requires at least some degree of pain, is always to be conducted in love, and is never intended to punish but always to instruct. We also understand that God as our Father models this discipline in our own lives and we are called to be receptive and teachable, even submissive to our Heavenly Father as the Creator who best knows how we should be trained and what best causes our growth.
How should we respond?
So, how should we respond when our society concludes that Father doesn’t know best? While of course I lament the continual erosion of religious freedom in this country, knowing from history the terrible oppression that is the inevitable result, it does not seem we are called presently to revolution, rebellion, or retreat. Perhaps two simple suggestions can help us to deal biblically with these challenges.
First, I suggest that we consider and appreciate that we do indeed have a place in the public square. And as such we can be influential in the shaping of society, and that we must keep in mind that this seat at the public discourse—be it a privilege or a right—should not be viewed as our primary role. We may, as individual members of the body of Christ, heavily influence public policy from time to time and we must be grateful to be part of a society in which an aspect of submission to government is in the shaping of that very government.
We must not take these things for granted, and we should not fear giving voice in the public square. Still, we must realize that Jesus didn’t die and rise again to save society. He died and rose again to save people. The means to revitalizing society is not broad political or humanly derived theocratic agendas. These have historically given rise to their own forms of oppression (as human solutions are always tarnished with sin and imperfection). But rather the means to revitalizing society involves the person-to-person sharing of the love of Christ and individual conduct in the manner He prescribes. If society is to be biblically moral in its ideas and conduct (and we know that it will never be fully so until God Himself ushers in eternity, making an end of sin), it will be so only by the grace of God and through the collective influence of Godly men, women, and children on people.
We must not forget that the disciples were called fishers of men, not fishers of societies and nations. God will deal with societies and nations. Ultimately they are accountable to Him. Ours is not to judge them or to hold them to an ethical standard under which they have never been placed. Remember, only believers are commanded to conduct themselves in godliness, while unbelievers are commanded to believe in Him for new life. Why would we expect unbelievers to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit whom they do not have? Still He calls us as His children to demonstrate His character to those around us. It seems that we should be socially active and responsible, but not obsessive. Our priorities must be in order.
Second, I suggest we consider the example of Daniel, who was above reproach (Dan. 6:5), and who had a habit of praying with windows opened and kneeling, facing Jerusalem (Dan. 6:10). When those trying to destroy him were successful in putting forth a law forbidding prayer to all but King Darius (Dan. 6:8-9), Daniel did not alter his course—he continued doing what he had done previously (Daniel 6:10). He did not incite revolution or conspire against the king nor against the officials who set out to harm Daniel. He did not rebel by becoming any more outspoken. Nor did he retreat by hiding or discontinuing his habitual prayer. Instead, he was steady in maintaining prayer and also in fulfilling his duties to the king inasmuch as was possible, in light of the king’s edict. When the two finally conflicted, Daniel unhesitatingly continued his service to God despite its freshly minted illegal status.
When consequences came, just as before, Daniel did not resort to revolution, rebellion or retreat. Instead he submitted to the king, accepting the consequence (death) for his actions (Dan. 6:7,12,17). When King Darius saw how righteously Daniel had behaved, and how God protected Daniel, Darius could do naught but glorify God and decree that men should treat Daniel’s God with requisite honor (Dan. 6:26-27).
Daniel’s goal was not to reform his society, but to obey God. Yet God used Daniel’s righteousness and obedience also in a way that had a remarkable impact on the society in which Daniel lived. When the law of the land decreed that Father didn’t know best, Daniel maintained his conviction to the contrary. Daniel had his priorities straight. What about us?
Christopher Cone Bio
Christopher Cone (ThD, PhD) is the President of Tyndale Theological Seminary and Biblical Institute, pastor of Tyndale Bible Church and author and editor of several books.
Thanks for taking up this topic. Well articulated… and there is a great need for that these days.
Much of the evangelical discussion on parenting approaches in the last few years has employed a grace argument… that parenting should mirror God’s grace to sinners, therefore traditional methods are not appropriate, etc.
But the instructive purpose of discipline really defeats that line of argument. There is no inconsistency at all between grace and the use of pain as a way of teaching. Nor is there any inconsistency between grace and firm boundaries.
[Cone] We understand from these passages that discipline is a correction and pruning process that usually (if not always) requires at least some degree of pain, is always to be conducted in love, and is never intended to punish but always to instruct.That last point is especially important and I’m not sure I had seen it clearly before.
Much of the evangelical discussion on parenting approaches in the last few years has employed a grace argument… that parenting should mirror God’s grace to sinners, therefore traditional methods are not appropriate, etc.
But the instructive purpose of discipline really defeats that line of argument. There is no inconsistency at all between grace and the use of pain as a way of teaching. Nor is there any inconsistency between grace and firm boundaries.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
The author seems to be equating painful discipline with PHYSICALLY painful discipline. Discipline can be painful without it being physically painful.
I’ve never NEEDED to spank my children. (I spanked the elder two a few times years ago, but in retrospect it was not necessary.) I do not spank my children, but I discipline them daily. I am being obedient to God and a loving parent with firm boundaries.
If spanking were declared illegal, I would be obeying both my heavenly Father and my civil authorities; it is not an either-or decision.
I’ve never NEEDED to spank my children. (I spanked the elder two a few times years ago, but in retrospect it was not necessary.) I do not spank my children, but I discipline them daily. I am being obedient to God and a loving parent with firm boundaries.
If spanking were declared illegal, I would be obeying both my heavenly Father and my civil authorities; it is not an either-or decision.
Rachel, it is important to pay attention to the scriptures. Discipline on the back of the fool requires physical discipline. Failure to spank equates to a failure to love. Your children have needed to be spanked, you just chose an alternate route. Obedience to God needs to reign over your cultural trappings.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
When did they need to be spanked? How in the world can you know that they “needed” a spanking?
I do not argue that the disciplining of children (as Christopher wrote) “usually (if not always) requires at least some degree of pain.” I might disagree somewhat and suggest that discipline always “requires at least some degree of pain” appropriate to the offence.
However, is the primary intent of the Solomonic proverbs or of it’s instruction in the epistle to the Hebrews that discipline must necessarily be physically painful? Yes, painful; but physical pain?
Just to clarify, I have used - and believe strongly - in physical discipline as sometimes necessary. For example, if my children hit each other, I spanked them. Hitting automatically deserved spanking; that was non-negotiable (as was lying). Another time, they talked disrespectfully, however, instead of spanking, I applied some soap to their mouths, which did the trick. They, at least, thought twice how to respond to me.
However, there was at least one time in one situtaion where spanking was not working and I had to cease. Looking back, I regret having used that form of discipline at that time. There were other times another form of discipline would have sufficed. We forget, at times, that discipline is required when the intent is rebellion, an outright refusal to obey.
Like many other issues, the Bible does not thoroughly provide us with all the answers to discipline (wish it did); and many important issues are left out, e.g. how to specifically apply discipline and what, if anything, should be done before or after its administration.
The Bible does afford a general principle to follow when faced with the disobedience of children. Discipline them. How and in what form that discipline should take is left up to what loving creativity God implanted in our minds through grace…as long as, I believe, some manner of pain is involved.
However, as I write this, I would question, what other kind of pain is appropriate to discipline? Emotional? Mental? Spiritual? Are these types of pain appropriate and loving acts of discipline? Or, does such pain amount to child abuse?
Maybe the writers did intend to require the necessity of the pain to be physical if only because it, when properly administered, has no lasting affect as do the other forms mentioned. And, if “soap in the mouth” can be construed as resulting in physical pain, I guess I have not stepped outside the Scriptural requirement for correcting disobedience.
A question not discussed, at least, in length is when does discipline crosses the line into abuse? I think the Bible provides some general rules to avoid child abuse when disciplining but specific instructions are left out.
Just things presently in mind as I read the article. I’d appreciate knowing what others think.
(Just for the record, my children have grown to be beautiful Christian women of whom I am proud to be called their father and in joyful eagerness say they are my daughters.)
However, is the primary intent of the Solomonic proverbs or of it’s instruction in the epistle to the Hebrews that discipline must necessarily be physically painful? Yes, painful; but physical pain?
Just to clarify, I have used - and believe strongly - in physical discipline as sometimes necessary. For example, if my children hit each other, I spanked them. Hitting automatically deserved spanking; that was non-negotiable (as was lying). Another time, they talked disrespectfully, however, instead of spanking, I applied some soap to their mouths, which did the trick. They, at least, thought twice how to respond to me.
However, there was at least one time in one situtaion where spanking was not working and I had to cease. Looking back, I regret having used that form of discipline at that time. There were other times another form of discipline would have sufficed. We forget, at times, that discipline is required when the intent is rebellion, an outright refusal to obey.
Like many other issues, the Bible does not thoroughly provide us with all the answers to discipline (wish it did); and many important issues are left out, e.g. how to specifically apply discipline and what, if anything, should be done before or after its administration.
The Bible does afford a general principle to follow when faced with the disobedience of children. Discipline them. How and in what form that discipline should take is left up to what loving creativity God implanted in our minds through grace…as long as, I believe, some manner of pain is involved.
However, as I write this, I would question, what other kind of pain is appropriate to discipline? Emotional? Mental? Spiritual? Are these types of pain appropriate and loving acts of discipline? Or, does such pain amount to child abuse?
Maybe the writers did intend to require the necessity of the pain to be physical if only because it, when properly administered, has no lasting affect as do the other forms mentioned. And, if “soap in the mouth” can be construed as resulting in physical pain, I guess I have not stepped outside the Scriptural requirement for correcting disobedience.
A question not discussed, at least, in length is when does discipline crosses the line into abuse? I think the Bible provides some general rules to avoid child abuse when disciplining but specific instructions are left out.
Just things presently in mind as I read the article. I’d appreciate knowing what others think.
(Just for the record, my children have grown to be beautiful Christian women of whom I am proud to be called their father and in joyful eagerness say they are my daughters.)
Thanx, all, for reading and for your comments. I have a few additional thoughts in light of your comments:
(1) Aaron, thank you for noting a pivotal aspect of the article - Biblical discipline is never punishment. Rather, it is shaping. That reality has significant implications for how discipline is handled, and you identified one important one.
(2) Rachel, actually I am not suggesting that all discipline must be physically painful (remember my discussion of the three-prong approach), though I am suggesting that the Biblical model focuses inarguably on physical pain. Our Heavenly Father utilizes other kinds of pain in discipline, but we do not have His all knowing perspective, and thus I find it quite telling that He focuses so much on the physical aspect for us. Further, you focussed primarily on your experience in your comment, and we have to remember that experience doesn’t set our theology - only God’s word does. I will mention my experience, not to set doctrine, but rather to illustrate how Biblical discipline has worked in my home: We have found that initially we had to spank our first daughter fairly often (from our perspective), but that with consistency came learning. Now, even though our daughters are still very young, we find that we rarely have to spank them, because they now generally have submitted, teachable and godly attitudes. In short, in our experience (which is not the authority on anything - only God’s word is), we have observed that the Biblical model works well for developing godly children.
(3) James, important reminder that submission to the Biblical data is critical. It is both authoritative and sufficient (2 Tim 3:16-17). Interestingly, some children may learn the important lessons of submission and respect earlier than others, and may thus need less discipline. So, while I am cautious about anyone who leans more heavily on experience than the Biblical direction, I would admit that it is (theoretically, at least) possible to have children who need very little discipline. For example, our youngest daughter learns by listening and observing, so we only have to spank her very rarely - but she knows it (spanking) is always an option. She is learning that she prefers submission to physical pain. This is the desired result, I believe, of Solomon’s discipline: for a child to learn that submission and respect results in great wealth (of course, not necessarily the monetary kind) and that rebellion and disrespect generally leads to dire consequences and pain - sometimes even physical death.
(4) Nbanuchi, you raise some excellent issues. Especially your question regarding “What other kind of pain is appropriate to discipline?” As you noted, I believe physical pain (always in moderation and love, of course) is the least “damaging” of the kinds you mentioned. When we move past that we step near the realm of manipulation and the kind of exasperation Ephesians warns about. While we can’t say that the Bible limits discipline to physical pain, we can say that the Bible sets a pattern that focuses on physical pain. The idea is that discipline can do its work quickly, so that the learner can understand that learning by listening is the better way (than having to be disciplined). Biblical discipline is to teach submission and respect, and to render the child ready to receive the truths that God has for him/her.
Thanx again for reading and for your comments!
cc
(1) Aaron, thank you for noting a pivotal aspect of the article - Biblical discipline is never punishment. Rather, it is shaping. That reality has significant implications for how discipline is handled, and you identified one important one.
(2) Rachel, actually I am not suggesting that all discipline must be physically painful (remember my discussion of the three-prong approach), though I am suggesting that the Biblical model focuses inarguably on physical pain. Our Heavenly Father utilizes other kinds of pain in discipline, but we do not have His all knowing perspective, and thus I find it quite telling that He focuses so much on the physical aspect for us. Further, you focussed primarily on your experience in your comment, and we have to remember that experience doesn’t set our theology - only God’s word does. I will mention my experience, not to set doctrine, but rather to illustrate how Biblical discipline has worked in my home: We have found that initially we had to spank our first daughter fairly often (from our perspective), but that with consistency came learning. Now, even though our daughters are still very young, we find that we rarely have to spank them, because they now generally have submitted, teachable and godly attitudes. In short, in our experience (which is not the authority on anything - only God’s word is), we have observed that the Biblical model works well for developing godly children.
(3) James, important reminder that submission to the Biblical data is critical. It is both authoritative and sufficient (2 Tim 3:16-17). Interestingly, some children may learn the important lessons of submission and respect earlier than others, and may thus need less discipline. So, while I am cautious about anyone who leans more heavily on experience than the Biblical direction, I would admit that it is (theoretically, at least) possible to have children who need very little discipline. For example, our youngest daughter learns by listening and observing, so we only have to spank her very rarely - but she knows it (spanking) is always an option. She is learning that she prefers submission to physical pain. This is the desired result, I believe, of Solomon’s discipline: for a child to learn that submission and respect results in great wealth (of course, not necessarily the monetary kind) and that rebellion and disrespect generally leads to dire consequences and pain - sometimes even physical death.
(4) Nbanuchi, you raise some excellent issues. Especially your question regarding “What other kind of pain is appropriate to discipline?” As you noted, I believe physical pain (always in moderation and love, of course) is the least “damaging” of the kinds you mentioned. When we move past that we step near the realm of manipulation and the kind of exasperation Ephesians warns about. While we can’t say that the Bible limits discipline to physical pain, we can say that the Bible sets a pattern that focuses on physical pain. The idea is that discipline can do its work quickly, so that the learner can understand that learning by listening is the better way (than having to be disciplined). Biblical discipline is to teach submission and respect, and to render the child ready to receive the truths that God has for him/her.
Thanx again for reading and for your comments!
cc
Tyndale Theological Seminary & Biblical Institute 800.886.1415 [email protected] www.tyndale.edu
[RachelL] The author seems to be equating painful discipline with PHYSICALLY painful discipline. Discipline can be painful without it being physically painful….Christopher has already answered this but a little different POV.
When did they need to be spanked? How in the world can you know that they “needed” a spanking?
Rachel, your questions seem to assume that using physical pain is a drastic measure or even an inherently bad thing that has to be justified. You’re certainly not alone in seeing it that way. But where does that idea come from?
We could as easily ask, why does the pain of discipline have to be non-physical? The Proverbs don’t seem to be worried about that.
If we all look back on our experience growing up, what we find is that pain (physical and non physical, both) is one of the most powerful learning tools in life. We learn not to touch hot things. We learn to be careful with sharp things. We learn to walk slowly on ice. On it goes.
Eventually, many learn to be wiser in how they handle relationships, to be wiser with money, to finish what they start, to keep their commitments, etc.
So why the anxiety about physical pain administered by a parent? Well, we all know why. Because unloving and/or foolish parents/other adults have so often abused the trust and responsibility God has given them. But then, where is the real problem? Is it physical vs. non-physical or is it wise and loving parent vs. foolish and unloving parent? I think locating the problem in the latter best answers to all the biblical principles.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
This attitude is present in the language of everyone in this conversation. The only people who do not appear to have this attitude are those parent who spank for EVERY infraction … and no one here seems to be advocating that. Every SI discussion involving spanking generally has several people who say that they use many forms of discipline (loss of privileges, time outs, physical restraint, etc.) and that they reserve spanking for specific acts/sins. Why would spanking be “reserved” for specific acts if it is not considered “above and beyond” to use physical pain?
Rachel, your questions seem to assume that using physical pain is a drastic measure or even an inherently bad thing that has to be justified.
Further, you focussed primarily on your experience in your comment, and we have to remember that experience doesn’t set our theology - only God’s word does.I agree. My comment focused on my experience because when I apply God’s word to my parenting — when I diligently discipline and teach my children — then I do not need to spank them. Are you suggesting that I should spank them occasionally just in case? If my children are learning well without spanking, why would I use it? If your answer is “because it’s Biblical” then you also need to tell me exactly WHEN it’s Biblical to spank them instead of teaching them. The problem with that is that I do not see any specific “Spanking is the proper response to these behaviors” statements in the Bible.
Rachel,
Thanx for your follow-ups and considerations…I will offer a few more observations:
(1) I am not arguing in the article or in these comments that physical discipline is the only means of discipline, only that it is the Biblical centerpiece of discipline. (Again, please recall my discussion in the article of the three-prong approach).
(2) Regarding your question “If my children are learning well without spanking, why would I use it?” I would suggest that it would be difficult to “apply God’s word to parenting” without utilizing the central means of discipline prescribed in God’s word. I don’t doubt your commitment, nor do I doubt the effectiveness of your parenting approach, I am simply wondering if it is altogether applying God’s word to parenting.
(3) Further, I wonder if you have considered that there are specific lessons intrinsic to physical discipline that might not be communicated in any other way. (Perhaps an example: If you have ever seen the rebellious spirit in a child melt away when the exertion of physical force [spanking on the bottom] requires them to admit that he/she cannot win, and that he/she is not the authority in the situation -the resulting broken and gentle spirit is a beautiful thing to see…).
(4) In Solomon (especially), “spanking” is the proper response to foolishness. That is a broad term, but the Biblical prescription is fairly straightforward. Any specific manifestation of foolishness would be Biblical warrant for physical discipline.
(5) Finally, if foolishness is not (any longer) present in the heart of a child, that is the point when I would cease from physical discipline. That transition takes place at different times for different kids, and I would count you blessed if your children have at a young age made that transition.
In any case, thanx so much Rachel, for the feedback and thoughtful responses…may God bless you as you continue encouraging your kids to walk in Him!
cc
Thanx for your follow-ups and considerations…I will offer a few more observations:
(1) I am not arguing in the article or in these comments that physical discipline is the only means of discipline, only that it is the Biblical centerpiece of discipline. (Again, please recall my discussion in the article of the three-prong approach).
(2) Regarding your question “If my children are learning well without spanking, why would I use it?” I would suggest that it would be difficult to “apply God’s word to parenting” without utilizing the central means of discipline prescribed in God’s word. I don’t doubt your commitment, nor do I doubt the effectiveness of your parenting approach, I am simply wondering if it is altogether applying God’s word to parenting.
(3) Further, I wonder if you have considered that there are specific lessons intrinsic to physical discipline that might not be communicated in any other way. (Perhaps an example: If you have ever seen the rebellious spirit in a child melt away when the exertion of physical force [spanking on the bottom] requires them to admit that he/she cannot win, and that he/she is not the authority in the situation -the resulting broken and gentle spirit is a beautiful thing to see…).
(4) In Solomon (especially), “spanking” is the proper response to foolishness. That is a broad term, but the Biblical prescription is fairly straightforward. Any specific manifestation of foolishness would be Biblical warrant for physical discipline.
(5) Finally, if foolishness is not (any longer) present in the heart of a child, that is the point when I would cease from physical discipline. That transition takes place at different times for different kids, and I would count you blessed if your children have at a young age made that transition.
In any case, thanx so much Rachel, for the feedback and thoughtful responses…may God bless you as you continue encouraging your kids to walk in Him!
cc
Tyndale Theological Seminary & Biblical Institute 800.886.1415 [email protected] www.tyndale.edu
(3) Further, I wonder if you have considered that there are specific lessons intrinsic to physical discipline that might not be communicated in any other way. (Perhaps an example: If you have ever seen the rebellious spirit in a child melt away when the exertion of physical force [spanking on the bottom] requires them to admit that he/she cannot win, and that he/she is not the authority in the situation -the resulting broken and gentle spirit is a beautiful thing to see…).
Christopher, I enjoyed your article—thank you so much! Your number 3 point really speaks to me at a very foundational level. As a mother with young children, at certain times, I find myself shying away from spanking for whatever reason (tiredness, laziness, busyness, etc.) and often resort to a different form that appears to be just as effective, forgetting that my privilege as a parent is to influence the heart and not just the behavior. I’m reminded through this that only God-breathed Words from the Creator can authoritatively speak to what influences the heart; trusting, ultimately that God is the One ultimately effecting it however He pleases. The pragmatic side of me wants to only go so far as to what seems/appears to be working making experience the trump card vs. God’s Word. I Sam. 16:7 stuff.
I also wonder if the article could have addressed a part about forgiveness and reconciliation as part of the discipline process? I understand the main idea was to speak directly to physical discipline, as outlined in Scripture, but a part of me, as I was reading it, was convicted. Too often, I look to the discipline aspects of Scripture, but neglect the reconciliation process and how we have the opportunity to teach our children (throughout the entire discipline/teaching process), not just about the consequences of sin, but more importantly, the payment in full.
Just thinking out loud, really. I’m very thankful for the article!
Blessings, Kim :)
Christopher, I enjoyed your article—thank you so much! Your number 3 point really speaks to me at a very foundational level. As a mother with young children, at certain times, I find myself shying away from spanking for whatever reason (tiredness, laziness, busyness, etc.) and often resort to a different form that appears to be just as effective, forgetting that my privilege as a parent is to influence the heart and not just the behavior. I’m reminded through this that only God-breathed Words from the Creator can authoritatively speak to what influences the heart; trusting, ultimately that God is the One ultimately effecting it however He pleases. The pragmatic side of me wants to only go so far as to what seems/appears to be working making experience the trump card vs. God’s Word. I Sam. 16:7 stuff.
I also wonder if the article could have addressed a part about forgiveness and reconciliation as part of the discipline process? I understand the main idea was to speak directly to physical discipline, as outlined in Scripture, but a part of me, as I was reading it, was convicted. Too often, I look to the discipline aspects of Scripture, but neglect the reconciliation process and how we have the opportunity to teach our children (throughout the entire discipline/teaching process), not just about the consequences of sin, but more importantly, the payment in full.
Just thinking out loud, really. I’m very thankful for the article!
Blessings, Kim :)
Wish you’d chime in here about the use of the Proverbs particularly. I don’t agree with all of Mike’s conclusions personally as I have stopped using corporal punishment in my parental relationship with my children, but he does make some very valid points about applying the rod Proverbs to equal 1) spanking 2) of children. I’ll quote from his sermon here:
[quote-Mike Durning’s sermon] The rod would be the absolute worst case scenario for the absolute worst case offense. And we don’t know that the rod in Proverbs is near as big and brutal as the one in Singapore.
Here’s the 2nd thing you need to know.
Most of the people who try to use the Bible to justify child abuse choose some rather unfortunate translations of these verses. Many of those who espouse things we call abuse are from the King James Version Only crowd. For example…
Look again at the verses in Proverbs [on screen]
In each of these verses, the Hebrew word that the King James Version translates as child is a word that should almost always be translated “youth”, with reference to young folks typically from ages 16-24, roughly. There are some exceptions, like when referring to “Jewish royalty” – people like Moses, Samson – the word can be applied to infants. But generally speaking, it applies to older teens and young adults. So, the majority of the verses that refer to the rod are with reference to ages far above small children. I’m not saying that’s always the case, but it’s a pattern that’s strong enough that it should give us pause.
In fact, the Jewish rabbis of ancient times frequently admonished people not to apply any verses about the rod to children before the age of 10.
By the way, that Hebrew word that means “young adult” crops up in a variety of Bible stories in the King James Version that you’ve heard told a little off. Remember the children who got attacked by bears when they mocked the prophet Elisha? Young adults. Elisha was being accosted by an angry mob of teens and young adults. Not teased by 9 year olds.
Here’s another thing you need to know. Some of the verses that involve “the rod” have been terribly misunderstood, I suspect.
Take Proverbs 23:13-14.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
I know of one preacher who preaches that if you are not beating your child until that child has bruises, you are not following the Bible. Never once does he put the word “child” in the Hebrew word context of a young adult. Never once does he explain that “the rod” includes the whole range of disciplinary options for the parent.
And when he preaches it, he says something like this…
“Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. [read mockingly].
“See, parents, your child may scream like you’re killing them. But they’re not going to die. Let them scream. Let them cry.
“Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
“Parents, if you don’t beat the devil out of your children, they will end up in Hell.”
What is the result of preaching like that? Well, ask two men who are now in prison for years in Texas, after beating a child almost to death to get the devil out of him. It’s the result of the preaching they grew up with.
What is Proverbs 23:13-14 talking about? Well, first, let’s hear it in another translation.
Prov. 23
13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
Note the change, almost certainly correct in this case, where the Hebrew word sheol is rendered “death” instead of “hell”. Read that way, he is saying if you punish your older teen or young adult with the rod, he won’t die – in fact, you’ll save his soul from death.
Here’s what I think is going on here.
In the Old Testament law, there was provision for an ultimately defiant young adult, wild, evil, drunken, violent, disrespectful. In extreme cases, the young adult might be executed.
So I’m reasonably certain that what’s in view here is quite literal: if you had a young adult who is so defiant and so wicked as to be in danger of that kind of penalty, you may have to take the matter very seriously, and provide serious punishment to correct that person before the town elders decided to execute him.
It’s important to remember it was a different culture. Many times the family patriarch was responsible for the sons well into what we would call adulthood.
Think of David’s son Amnon, who sexually assaulted his sister.
Think of David’s son Absalom, who stirred up a rebellion that cost thousands their lives.
Think of Jacob’s sons who murdered a whole village.
And not a sheriff in range for 1300 years.
Yes, the rod was appropriate in some extreme cases. And those guys still didn’t use it.
I say all that to say this: Do not let anyone tell you that the Bible says you should be beating your 9 year old.
There is a place for spanking, administered correctly, not in anger, with explanation, when necessary. Particularly, for defiance. Sure. But the Bible is not a Child Abuse manual, and Christ would not make you a child abuser.
That’s not to say that corporal punishment is not in your toolbox. It’s just to remind you that there are limits. Do not forget that God loves children, and promises judgment to those who do not care for them properly.
[quote-Mike Durning’s sermon] The rod would be the absolute worst case scenario for the absolute worst case offense. And we don’t know that the rod in Proverbs is near as big and brutal as the one in Singapore.
Here’s the 2nd thing you need to know.
Most of the people who try to use the Bible to justify child abuse choose some rather unfortunate translations of these verses. Many of those who espouse things we call abuse are from the King James Version Only crowd. For example…
Look again at the verses in Proverbs [on screen]
In each of these verses, the Hebrew word that the King James Version translates as child is a word that should almost always be translated “youth”, with reference to young folks typically from ages 16-24, roughly. There are some exceptions, like when referring to “Jewish royalty” – people like Moses, Samson – the word can be applied to infants. But generally speaking, it applies to older teens and young adults. So, the majority of the verses that refer to the rod are with reference to ages far above small children. I’m not saying that’s always the case, but it’s a pattern that’s strong enough that it should give us pause.
In fact, the Jewish rabbis of ancient times frequently admonished people not to apply any verses about the rod to children before the age of 10.
By the way, that Hebrew word that means “young adult” crops up in a variety of Bible stories in the King James Version that you’ve heard told a little off. Remember the children who got attacked by bears when they mocked the prophet Elisha? Young adults. Elisha was being accosted by an angry mob of teens and young adults. Not teased by 9 year olds.
Here’s another thing you need to know. Some of the verses that involve “the rod” have been terribly misunderstood, I suspect.
Take Proverbs 23:13-14.
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
I know of one preacher who preaches that if you are not beating your child until that child has bruises, you are not following the Bible. Never once does he put the word “child” in the Hebrew word context of a young adult. Never once does he explain that “the rod” includes the whole range of disciplinary options for the parent.
And when he preaches it, he says something like this…
“Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. [read mockingly].
“See, parents, your child may scream like you’re killing them. But they’re not going to die. Let them scream. Let them cry.
“Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
“Parents, if you don’t beat the devil out of your children, they will end up in Hell.”
What is the result of preaching like that? Well, ask two men who are now in prison for years in Texas, after beating a child almost to death to get the devil out of him. It’s the result of the preaching they grew up with.
What is Proverbs 23:13-14 talking about? Well, first, let’s hear it in another translation.
Prov. 23
13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
Note the change, almost certainly correct in this case, where the Hebrew word sheol is rendered “death” instead of “hell”. Read that way, he is saying if you punish your older teen or young adult with the rod, he won’t die – in fact, you’ll save his soul from death.
Here’s what I think is going on here.
In the Old Testament law, there was provision for an ultimately defiant young adult, wild, evil, drunken, violent, disrespectful. In extreme cases, the young adult might be executed.
So I’m reasonably certain that what’s in view here is quite literal: if you had a young adult who is so defiant and so wicked as to be in danger of that kind of penalty, you may have to take the matter very seriously, and provide serious punishment to correct that person before the town elders decided to execute him.
It’s important to remember it was a different culture. Many times the family patriarch was responsible for the sons well into what we would call adulthood.
Think of David’s son Amnon, who sexually assaulted his sister.
Think of David’s son Absalom, who stirred up a rebellion that cost thousands their lives.
Think of Jacob’s sons who murdered a whole village.
And not a sheriff in range for 1300 years.
Yes, the rod was appropriate in some extreme cases. And those guys still didn’t use it.
I say all that to say this: Do not let anyone tell you that the Bible says you should be beating your 9 year old.
There is a place for spanking, administered correctly, not in anger, with explanation, when necessary. Particularly, for defiance. Sure. But the Bible is not a Child Abuse manual, and Christ would not make you a child abuser.
That’s not to say that corporal punishment is not in your toolbox. It’s just to remind you that there are limits. Do not forget that God loves children, and promises judgment to those who do not care for them properly.
Anne
1. If you truly love your children, it isn’t too late to adopt a biblical method of discipline for them. Failure to spank is a failure to love. Argue that point with God if you don’t like it.
2. I appreciate your posts on this discussion because they so clearly contrast the explicit words of scripture. They provide a contrast that is helpful on so many levels. I have personally benefited from them.
3. Sadly for Mike’s deplorable theology, he isn’t limited to only one verse to wrench out of context. In fact, he is doing to Prov 23 exactly what he is telling others they shouldn’t do to their children. That poor verse. Jack Bauer thinks that verse got tortured a lot by Mike.
1. If you truly love your children, it isn’t too late to adopt a biblical method of discipline for them. Failure to spank is a failure to love. Argue that point with God if you don’t like it.
2. I appreciate your posts on this discussion because they so clearly contrast the explicit words of scripture. They provide a contrast that is helpful on so many levels. I have personally benefited from them.
3. Sadly for Mike’s deplorable theology, he isn’t limited to only one verse to wrench out of context. In fact, he is doing to Prov 23 exactly what he is telling others they shouldn’t do to their children. That poor verse. Jack Bauer thinks that verse got tortured a lot by Mike.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Rachel, I’m not ganging up on you (sorry for my NY phraseology) but I just thought I’d like to share some onservations
However, let’s not make any mistake about it: spanking is a teaching tool.
Now I am not advocating that you ought to spank your children but I am suggesting that we should not discount spanking totally as though it were anathema; but leave room for it’s profitable use as a tool to teach our children God’s love.
Not that I’m an expert in parenting…
[Rachel L.] Why would spanking be “reserved” for specific acts if it is not considered “above and beyond” to use physical pain?Personally, I don’t think physical spanking ought to be used as the last measure or just in drastic cases. However, I do believe the punishment ought to fit the crime. Each parent needs to determine that for themselves. In my case, if one of my children hit another, that called for automatice spanking. If they lied, automatic spanking. However, if they stole gum from the kitchen drawer when I told them not to, there would be some form of discipline but not spanking. Then, again, if it was discerned that they took the gum out of purposeful disobedience, I believe spanking is appropriate, not as an equal measure of the infraction itself as to its intent.
[Rachel L.]…tell me exactly WHEN it’s Biblical to spank them instead of teaching them…Spanking is teaching. The question may not be when we ought to spank them but does the infraction call or deserve spanking? It may be Biblical to spank but, unfortunately, the Bible doesn’t necessarily list how, when, and for what - except in general terms - spanking is to be administered.
However, let’s not make any mistake about it: spanking is a teaching tool.
Now I am not advocating that you ought to spank your children but I am suggesting that we should not discount spanking totally as though it were anathema; but leave room for it’s profitable use as a tool to teach our children God’s love.
Not that I’m an expert in parenting…
Re: Mike Durning’s sermon.
That was an enlighteing and good word! In my opinion, it seemed well balanced in opposition to both polar extremes between child neglect and child abuse.
That was an enlighteing and good word! In my opinion, it seemed well balanced in opposition to both polar extremes between child neglect and child abuse.
The idea that use of the rod is the worst case scenario is not apparent at all in the book of Proverbs, nor is it in Heb. 12.
Rather, we’re encouraged to see pain as pain and not be afraid to use it. Personally, I think the “rod” is likely intended as a metaphor for pain in general and that Proverbs sees and makes no distinction regarding physical or nonphysical.
Speaking from my own experience: I’d prefer physical pain to emotional in most cases if I had a choice. So I think the assumption that literal use of the rod is more drastic than other kinds of pain is … pretty questionable.
That said, there are multiple possibilities here:
Rather, we’re encouraged to see pain as pain and not be afraid to use it. Personally, I think the “rod” is likely intended as a metaphor for pain in general and that Proverbs sees and makes no distinction regarding physical or nonphysical.
Speaking from my own experience: I’d prefer physical pain to emotional in most cases if I had a choice. So I think the assumption that literal use of the rod is more drastic than other kinds of pain is … pretty questionable.
That said, there are multiple possibilities here:
- physical is more severe than other kinds of pain
- emotional and other kinds of pain are more severe than physical
- physical and “other” kinds of pain are roughly equal in “severity” and we need to choose what seems wisest in a particular case
I lean toward “c,” though I think it’s normal for a loving parent who has any empathy at all for his kids to feel more reluctant to use physical pain than other kinds of pain. And if two options appear to be equally suitable for instruction and correction, I do choose the one that hurts me less as the parent.
But why do we (most of us—including me) feel instinctively more drawn to use of pain that is not physical? I’m not sure I know the answer to that. It may be in part because the fact that we are causing pain is less directly evident to us (our causing of pain is more subtle). It may be that children hide their nonphysical pain more. I don’t know. But nonphysical pain is real pain and we shouldn’t think that it doesn’t count.
Much appreciate sjknoble’s reasoning on this…- Only God can really shape a child’s heart
- If we do what God instructs us to do as parents, we can trust that God will do as He deems wise and good
- God instructs us to use pain in discipline, physical pain not excepted
- Therefore, we should parent in this way as a method of reaching a child’s heart
But I really want to go back to a point I made earlier: there is no substitute for virtuous parents. Much of the thought out there these days seems to be a search to find an approach to parenting that will prevent abuse as though an approach can solve the problem of lack of wisdom, love and courage in the parents. That’s a vain dream. I really believe that wise, good, loving and courageous parents will be pretty effective using just about any method because—consciously or otherwise—they will use pain carefully, judiciously.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[skjnoble]I found the title to Kim’s post interesting. In psychology, Behavior Modification is achieved through externally imposed pain/rewards. Most Christians I know shy away from the idea of Behavior Modification when discussing parenting because it focuses on externals (though Aaron’s Rewards article yesterday did discuss the idea of it). There is the very real concern that children can/will become just BETTER AT HIDING THEIR SIN instead of showing it to us and thereby giving us the opportunity to help them address the sin in their lives. Disciplining through conversation, setting limits, making them comply with hand-over-hand help … all of these things do a much better job of showing us our children’s hearts and allowing us to guide and direct. This is the heart of “You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.” It is teaching and leading by example in a constant, living-life manner.
Christopher, I enjoyed your article—thank you so much! Your number 3 point really speaks to me at a very foundational level. As a mother with young children, at certain times, I find myself shying away from spanking for whatever reason (tiredness, laziness, busyness, etc.) and often resort to a different form that appears to be just as effective, forgetting that my privilege as a parent is to influence the heart and not just the behavior. I’m reminded through this that only God-breathed Words from the Creator can authoritatively speak to what influences the heart; trusting, ultimately that God is the One ultimately effecting it however He pleases. The pragmatic side of me wants to only go so far as to what seems/appears to be working making experience the trump card vs. God’s Word. I Sam. 16:7 stuff.
Spanking encourages the child to sneak and lie IN ORDER TO AVOID PAIN. Spanking focuses on externals. Spanking does not have some mystical ability to make what happens to children’s bottoms affect their hearts. Yes, I know you will quote Proverbs to me here. The Proverbs are not talking about spanking as we use the term. The Proverbs are talking about using a LARGE STICK to beat THE BACK of a YOUNG MAN. If you quote Proverbs, do so honestly. If you aren’t comfortable using a large stick, ask yourself why you are willing to ignore scripture. If you choose to beat your child’s bottom instead of his back, ask yourself why you are willing to ignore scripture. If you stop using spankings for discipline at the age that the Proverbs say to beat your son, ask yourself why you are willing to ignore scripture. If the answer is, “Everyone knows you aren’t supposed to hit them on the back or use a stick that will give them bruises or spank past the age of 12!” then you are adhering to cultural understanding of spanking, not Biblical application of the Proverbs.
One can choose to spank without a Biblical basis to do so. As a matter of fact, one SHOULD choose to spank without claiming the Bible MANDATES it. It does not.
Rachel, to claim the Bible does not mandate spanking is to ignore so much of what it says about discipline. Instead of coming up with clever ways of getting around scripture, why not simply submit to God’s revelation? God knows better than you and has informed us how he wants us to train up our children. Heb 12 helps us to know God’s attitude toward spanking his children.
Failure to spank is a failure to love and it communicates a relationship less than parent and full child. Who are those who aren’t spanked? Talk about opting for culture…
Failure to spank is a failure to love and it communicates a relationship less than parent and full child. Who are those who aren’t spanked? Talk about opting for culture…
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Spanking encourages the child to sneak and lie IN ORDER TO AVOID PAIN. Spanking focuses on externals.1. ANY discipline could do this. Spanking doesn’t have some mystical ability to teach kids to sneak and lie.
2. Spanking only focuses on externals if it is not accompanied by verbal correction.
This last point might be what is causing so much confusion for you. You aren’t to just spank and not teach. Discipline involves both, not either/or. Spanking for what is wrong and teaching and encouragement to do what is right. This communicates to the child the proper method of dealing with sin. This is in fact exactly what God did in Christ and continues to do in us.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
[James K][Bolding mine]
This last point might be what is causing so much confusion for you. You aren’t to just spank and not teach. Discipline involves both, not either/or. Spanking for what is wrong and teaching and encouragement to do what is right. This communicates to the child the proper method of dealing with sin. This is in fact exactly what God did in Christ and continues to do in us.
But if I am able to teach without spanking (and I am), why are you insisting that I also spank? Why “must” discipline involve both?
Even in spanking families, discipline does not involve both every time; it is the very rare parent who spanks for every infraction. Why “must” spanking be involved sometimes for learning to take place?The idea that use of the rod is the worst case scenario is not apparent at all in the book of Proverbs, nor is it in Heb. 12.I don’t think I’ve ever said that spanking is for a “worst case scenario.” I’m saying, “I don’t have to use it to teach my children.” I have said that most families that use spanking seem to use it for SPECIFIC types of disobedience or sin. I do not know how they determine which sins are spank-worthy. I do not know if they would consider these sins more egregious than others, though certainly I hear language like “the punishment fitting the crime” which would lead one to believe that “bigger sins” result in “bigger punishments.”
Rather, we’re encouraged to see pain as pain and not be afraid to use it. Personally, I think the “rod” is likely intended as a metaphor for pain in general and that Proverbs sees and makes no distinction regarding physical or nonphysical.
Speaking from my own experience: I’d prefer physical pain to emotional in most cases if I had a choice. So I think the assumption that literal use of the rod is more drastic than other kinds of pain is … pretty questionable.
The behavior of most spanking parents leads me to believe that they consider spankings to be “more drastic than [non-physical] pain.” The spanking families I know will verbally correct a child who is using unacceptable language/tone. They do not spank them for the first infraction. They reserve spanking for continued disobedience or for infractions that are considered egregious based on the family’s values (lying, defiance after clear instruction, etc.).
If you think that spanking should NOT be “reserved” for some specific acts, you should take that up with spanking families. It is a point that does not apply to my family.And if two options appear to be equally suitable for instruction and correction, I do choose the one that hurts me less as the parent.I believe that this is because we are aware that:
But why do we (most of us—including me) feel instinctively more drawn to use of pain that is not physical?
1. Physical pain is something we as parents are IMPOSING and we are aware that our judgment is imperfect. Physical pain can also lead to abuse if we are not careful. Any action that can result in harm if care is not taken will naturally have its usage curbed rather than encouraged.
2. Emotional pain that comes from logical and natural consequences is much more productive for learning, otherwise we wouldn’t transition to these methods as children reach the teen years.
3. Hurting others physically (in non-medical contexts) is considered wrong, so it is unnatural to MAKE yourself hurt someone who is small and defenseless.
Wow…these postings express alot of sensitivity and strong opinion on the subject. Much was said. Although, I’m rushed at the moment, I hope to gather some observations and share them.
Let me just say that to totally disregard corporeal punishment as a viable disiplinary teaching tool, irrespective if one chooses to use it or not, is throwing out the baby with the bath water (as the old addage goes).
We also ought to remember, corporeal punishment is not foolproof neither is any form of discipline a automatic guarantee that you will obtain the desired results, that is, a child who grows up to love Christ.
For an overall observation on discipline, Aaron caught it best when he says that “there is no substitute for virtuous parents.”
But, more on all this later…hopefully.
Let me just say that to totally disregard corporeal punishment as a viable disiplinary teaching tool, irrespective if one chooses to use it or not, is throwing out the baby with the bath water (as the old addage goes).
We also ought to remember, corporeal punishment is not foolproof neither is any form of discipline a automatic guarantee that you will obtain the desired results, that is, a child who grows up to love Christ.
For an overall observation on discipline, Aaron caught it best when he says that “there is no substitute for virtuous parents.”
But, more on all this later…hopefully.
Just to clarify, I was referring to the post with Mike Durning’s view in it…. that was his term.
But “worst case scenario” is far better than “no case scenario.”
To exclude spanking entirely, one has to make a case that the Bible excludes it. Anybody who wants to do that has a tough row to hoe and I don’t envy him.
A few quick and random points…
Getting the actual Scripture in front of us can really help cut through the fog that sometimes descends in these kinds of discussions.
But “worst case scenario” is far better than “no case scenario.”
To exclude spanking entirely, one has to make a case that the Bible excludes it. Anybody who wants to do that has a tough row to hoe and I don’t envy him.
A few quick and random points…
- The argument that we should not use physical pain because it trains kids to hide sin better fails because that also describes non-physical pain—indeed any kind of discipline. (Just realized James already made this pt.)
- Consequences: when it’s your policy in your home to handle certain kinds of offenses with spanking, the spanking is a consequence.
- If it is discipline in any meaningful sense, the non-physical kinds of pain are just as parent inflicted as physical pain. Unless we’re talking about parents sitting back and just allowing whatever consequence naturally happens, the pain is an intentional result of what a parent does.
- Hebrews 12 and all the rod passages of Prov. cannot really make sense unless there is intentional use of unpleasant consequences by parents.
Getting the actual Scripture in front of us can really help cut through the fog that sometimes descends in these kinds of discussions.
Heb 12:7–11 NKJV 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.It’s gotta be pretty hard to read that in a way that doesn’t see a “painful discipline is what loving parents do” line of reasoning there.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Why do many non-spankers assume physical pain is worse than emotional pain?
I believe that parenting and discipline is the responsibility of each individual family and that we must apply the Scripture according to our firm persuasion in our minds, But the argument that spanking leads more quickly to abuse doesn’t sit right with me (maybe I am not getting it). As a pastor I have seen young adults whose lives are messed up because their parents abused them emotionally and mentally, but never laid a hand on them.
My personal anecdote, when I was a child I would have rather received a spanking than any other form of discipline. I felt a closeness to my Father when I saw the tears in his eyes as he spanked me. When he wept with me after the spanking while we hugged and how that after the spanking, it was over; I felt our relationship was restored. But sometimes he didn’t spank me and he glared at me, he gave me the silent treatment, he wouldn’t speak to me. (I admit that was very rare and I don’t regret how he raised me, no parent is perfect). The first with the physical pain had a beginning and an end and a restored relationship. The latter made him seem petty and angry at me. I interpreted anger more with emotional discipline than I did with physical discipline. Just my experience…maybe only useful to me.
I believe that parenting and discipline is the responsibility of each individual family and that we must apply the Scripture according to our firm persuasion in our minds, But the argument that spanking leads more quickly to abuse doesn’t sit right with me (maybe I am not getting it). As a pastor I have seen young adults whose lives are messed up because their parents abused them emotionally and mentally, but never laid a hand on them.
My personal anecdote, when I was a child I would have rather received a spanking than any other form of discipline. I felt a closeness to my Father when I saw the tears in his eyes as he spanked me. When he wept with me after the spanking while we hugged and how that after the spanking, it was over; I felt our relationship was restored. But sometimes he didn’t spank me and he glared at me, he gave me the silent treatment, he wouldn’t speak to me. (I admit that was very rare and I don’t regret how he raised me, no parent is perfect). The first with the physical pain had a beginning and an end and a restored relationship. The latter made him seem petty and angry at me. I interpreted anger more with emotional discipline than I did with physical discipline. Just my experience…maybe only useful to me.
and here I am…
Just a couple points: If anyone is really, honestly interested in thinking about something from various perspectives, you could skim through this webpage—it’s an overview of punitive (punishment-focused) parenting and permissive parenting.
http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id25.html
The issue of spanking itself is simply the Christian crux of the punitive paradigm. That is why it often becomes the central focus in these types of discussions. But really, it is reflective of a mindset.
Building a spanking theology and ritual from Proverbs and Heb 12 is simply very bad hermaneutics. Spanking as we are discussing it here is an a-biblical or extra-biblical topic. It is not a holy or God-sanctioned activity. The Bible does not directly address it. This is very hard for many in our circles to even consider because it is so ingrained in our theology and even our in our view of God.
I think, personally, Christian parents are free in the Lord to spank or not. The Bible does not say directly one way or the other. It should not be spiritualized. This is when it creates problems for families.
Putting the rotten tomato guard back up now …
Just a couple points: If anyone is really, honestly interested in thinking about something from various perspectives, you could skim through this webpage—it’s an overview of punitive (punishment-focused) parenting and permissive parenting.
http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id25.html
The issue of spanking itself is simply the Christian crux of the punitive paradigm. That is why it often becomes the central focus in these types of discussions. But really, it is reflective of a mindset.
Building a spanking theology and ritual from Proverbs and Heb 12 is simply very bad hermaneutics. Spanking as we are discussing it here is an a-biblical or extra-biblical topic. It is not a holy or God-sanctioned activity. The Bible does not directly address it. This is very hard for many in our circles to even consider because it is so ingrained in our theology and even our in our view of God.
I think, personally, Christian parents are free in the Lord to spank or not. The Bible does not say directly one way or the other. It should not be spiritualized. This is when it creates problems for families.
Putting the rotten tomato guard back up now …
Anne,
I think this will be my final post in this discussion, just due to time restraints, but I want to make three quick mentions:
(1) Please recall that my article expressly describes discipline (including spanking) as non-punitive. That is critical. Until parents realize they are never to punish their children, but rather are to instruct and discipline, this issue will remain muddy.
(2) Thanx for your observations. Always good to see someone who is concerned with hermeneutic matters, as methodology in interpreting the text as absolutely foundational. I have written a hermeneutics textbook [Prolegomena: Introductory Notes on Bible Study and Theological Method] , that (among other things) stresses the importance of literal grammatical-historical hermeneutics and the study in the original languages. I apply those principles in deriving the assertions regarding physical discipline that I discuss here. But then again, of course, you shouldn’t take my word for it - you should hold me accountable to the text itself. I appreciate your attitude and courage in that, even if I disagree with your conclusions…
(3) Perhaps in the very near future I will write an article for this website (if the Editor is interested in such an article) on a Biblical Theology of Discipline, which will show the exegetical work (in Hebrew and Greek) leading to the conclusions that physical discipline is indeed mandated in the Bible, thus providing the simple answer to the question: “Why should I spank my kids?” I will propose the idea to the Editor, and if he has interest I will write the article. Then you can review it and consider whether or not it is an accurate handling of the text.
Thanx again, all for reading and commenting. I hope and pray the article was helpful, feel free to contact me anytime at [email protected].
Thanx again, also, to the Editor for giving me the opportunity to fellowship with you all in this context…
cc
I think this will be my final post in this discussion, just due to time restraints, but I want to make three quick mentions:
(1) Please recall that my article expressly describes discipline (including spanking) as non-punitive. That is critical. Until parents realize they are never to punish their children, but rather are to instruct and discipline, this issue will remain muddy.
(2) Thanx for your observations. Always good to see someone who is concerned with hermeneutic matters, as methodology in interpreting the text as absolutely foundational. I have written a hermeneutics textbook [Prolegomena: Introductory Notes on Bible Study and Theological Method] , that (among other things) stresses the importance of literal grammatical-historical hermeneutics and the study in the original languages. I apply those principles in deriving the assertions regarding physical discipline that I discuss here. But then again, of course, you shouldn’t take my word for it - you should hold me accountable to the text itself. I appreciate your attitude and courage in that, even if I disagree with your conclusions…
(3) Perhaps in the very near future I will write an article for this website (if the Editor is interested in such an article) on a Biblical Theology of Discipline, which will show the exegetical work (in Hebrew and Greek) leading to the conclusions that physical discipline is indeed mandated in the Bible, thus providing the simple answer to the question: “Why should I spank my kids?” I will propose the idea to the Editor, and if he has interest I will write the article. Then you can review it and consider whether or not it is an accurate handling of the text.
Thanx again, all for reading and commenting. I hope and pray the article was helpful, feel free to contact me anytime at [email protected].
Thanx again, also, to the Editor for giving me the opportunity to fellowship with you all in this context…
cc
Tyndale Theological Seminary & Biblical Institute 800.886.1415 [email protected] www.tyndale.edu
and before you write, I would suggest you read the works of Clay Clarkson (Heartfelt Discipline, chapter on Rethinking the Rod) and ask Mike Durning (member here) for his research notes. Actually, I can mail you the Clarkson book, if you want, to look over.
I know Tedd Tripp does some gymnastics to redefine “punitive” and why spanking is not punitive, but his particular approach is not logical. He basically just says, because it’s Biblical, it can’t be punitive… .
I have foudn that this issue goes very deeply into the heart of major theological doctrines, like the depravity of man and stuff like that. I may elaborate later, but this is probably not the time.
Look forward to your article and further discussion. I’m pretty sure they will want to publish it.
I know Tedd Tripp does some gymnastics to redefine “punitive” and why spanking is not punitive, but his particular approach is not logical. He basically just says, because it’s Biblical, it can’t be punitive… .
I have foudn that this issue goes very deeply into the heart of major theological doctrines, like the depravity of man and stuff like that. I may elaborate later, but this is probably not the time.
Look forward to your article and further discussion. I’m pretty sure they will want to publish it.
Kim, did I break it down accurately? The reason this resonates with me so much is that corrective/instructive pain is so often represented as behavior modification and set against reaching the heart as though we have to either go for the heart or use pain…. and not both. So the debate is often framed incorrectly from the start.
Yes, Aaron. That, I believe, is the framework for a good booklet for young mothers. The right, biblical philosophy on how to teach and discipline their children. IMO, this is not only the Scriptural thought process, but also helps relieve some of the burden and guilt young mothers can feel, at times. Often times, we get mixed signals, many from well-meaning people. We’re told we’re supposed to be teaching and disciplining according to the bible’s guidelines in order to influence the heart, but are sometimes admonished for behavior modification along the way. That’s a tough pickle to be in. How does one live that out in daily life? Is it possible to influence the heart without behaviorally modifiying? Of course, none of us doing this perfectly, but having a correct biblical philosophy surely helps.
For our household, my husband and I see both in Scripture. As you said, Aaron, they are not set in conflict with one another, but work together. Isn’t that what a “new self” and “transformed life” and “bearing good fruit” etc. are all about, a supernaturally, behaviorally modified life? And isn’t that the real mark of genuine believe: a changed, sanctified(ying) life? So, while our children are unbelievers and we can’t actually change the heart, we believe that the tools and resources God has given to us (read: commands us to do) work in harmony to achieve both ends, all the while trusting in a sovereign Lord.
I think the pitfall is when behavior modification is an end: a well-trained, well-rounded individual which is the world’s goal for their greater good. But, of course, why would we think the world could speak to either?
Appreciate your thoughtful breakdown.
Blessings, Kim :)
Yes, Aaron. That, I believe, is the framework for a good booklet for young mothers. The right, biblical philosophy on how to teach and discipline their children. IMO, this is not only the Scriptural thought process, but also helps relieve some of the burden and guilt young mothers can feel, at times. Often times, we get mixed signals, many from well-meaning people. We’re told we’re supposed to be teaching and disciplining according to the bible’s guidelines in order to influence the heart, but are sometimes admonished for behavior modification along the way. That’s a tough pickle to be in. How does one live that out in daily life? Is it possible to influence the heart without behaviorally modifiying? Of course, none of us doing this perfectly, but having a correct biblical philosophy surely helps.
For our household, my husband and I see both in Scripture. As you said, Aaron, they are not set in conflict with one another, but work together. Isn’t that what a “new self” and “transformed life” and “bearing good fruit” etc. are all about, a supernaturally, behaviorally modified life? And isn’t that the real mark of genuine believe: a changed, sanctified(ying) life? So, while our children are unbelievers and we can’t actually change the heart, we believe that the tools and resources God has given to us (read: commands us to do) work in harmony to achieve both ends, all the while trusting in a sovereign Lord.
I think the pitfall is when behavior modification is an end: a well-trained, well-rounded individual which is the world’s goal for their greater good. But, of course, why would we think the world could speak to either?
Appreciate your thoughtful breakdown.
Blessings, Kim :)
Anne, Chris is talking about doing a complete exegetical research work in the original languages throughout the Bible. You are pushing a book. Think about it.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Oh, James, dare I speak to you? Clarkson’s book is also an exegetical/hermeneutical treatment of the Bible. If Chris wants to write about this, he should be aware of other treatments.
I hope my friend *tulipgirl* doesn’t mind me posting some of her thoughts, but she does such a good job at putting into words what people mean by “grace” parenting. http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2011/10/on-the-pearls-and-parenting-… This post has some good insights.
Like, this is what I mean when I say it is a paradigm shift, not just about spanking:
;)
I hope my friend *tulipgirl* doesn’t mind me posting some of her thoughts, but she does such a good job at putting into words what people mean by “grace” parenting. http://www.tulipgirl.com/index.php/2011/10/on-the-pearls-and-parenting-… This post has some good insights.
Like, this is what I mean when I say it is a paradigm shift, not just about spanking:
Our children are part of the Covenant, and I believe Christ has already suffered the punishment for their sin on the Cross. I do not need to “punish” them when they do wrong. I do need to discipline them, disciple them, help them see their sin and repent, as well as help them learn the “rules” of living in polite society… . Nor do I see any command in the Bible for parents to punish children for their sin–I do see many commands to disciple, discipline, teach, love, train and chastise.I don’t get into a lot of covenant theology personally, but I do want to treat my kids in accordance to God’s grace to us.
I no longer punish my children. Christ has borne the punishment for their sins on the Cross. I do enforce boundaries and discipline my children.
Whether or not it [a particular parenting method] “works” is in large part determined by how you define “works.” My goal is to help my children become the people God has created them to be, with an emphasis on them relying upon God’s grace for their daily living. I want to help them learn to recognize their sin and turn to God in repentance. I want to model for them what it looks like to lean into God when we are struggling.Anyway, those are some of the deep theological shifts I have gone through in how I view childrearing, and there are many, many more changes. Like, for example, realizing that the days I read my bible, pray, don’t get mad at anyone, and cook a nice dinner, I’m just as much living by and dependent on God’s undeserved goodwill towards me as on the days when I dont read my Bible, yell at my kids, and don’t get dinner fixed… .
;)
I think playing word games muddies waters that are already murky enough. Is there really a difference between “enforcing boundaries” and “punishment” and “consequences”? No - there isn’t. Try telling some guy in jail that he isn’t being punished- society is just “enforcing boundaries”. Ditto a child being sent to their room for a ‘time out’. All of those terms describe what is happening - they are not mutually exclusive nor do they cancel each other out. Children need to understand that, and Scripture gives us a variety of ways to teach this principle to our children, one of which is the literal, physical rod.
Any form of discipline can become abusive when taken to extremes. Spanking can become a brutal beating. ‘Time outs’ can become a cruel banishment. Words can wound and even cripple. Even something as insidious as a withdrawal of affection violates Scripture and damages a child. Acting as if spanking is the only action that could ever lead to abuse is dishonest.
Certain terms and beliefs can affect how we teach/train/disciple unregenerate and regenerate children. Christ’s atonement doesn’t negate an eternity in Hell for youngsters old enough to understand the Gospel and reject Him, and we need to be careful that we do not inadvertently lead a child to believe they are saved, when in fact they have NOT received God’s grace through faith in Him. We should not allow children to think that God’s wrath and vengeance towards unrighteousness is negated by His grace, or vice/versa.
Wickedness is not an entity, or some misty floaty thing separated from humanity- by one man sin came into the world, and death, both physical and eternal, was the result of that sin for all mankind thereafter. I understand what we are trying to convey when we say that we ‘hate the sin and love the sinner’, but the two are spiritually intertwined until God performs a spiritual circumcision… also a God-ordained physically painful process perpetuated on babies in order to do nothing else but prove a point.
I agree with the author’s advice about how to respond in the public arena and keeping our priorities straight. There’s quite a bit said from some of today’s IFB pulpits about prayer and Bibles being taken out of public schools, media attacks on family and fatherhood- but that’s just a Godless society being Godless. Preaching and teaching should expound Scripture and address what is going on in the church, in the lives of the individuals in the pews- blasting society gets lots of response from the ‘Amen’ corner, but what does that do to equip the saints? IOW, if you are getting meat and potatoes from the pulpit, and chewing on it daily at home, you aren’t going to be so tempted to dumpster-dive the world’s Chicken McNuggets. The church’s appetite, generally speaking, is far too accustomed to and satisfied with junk food.
Any form of discipline can become abusive when taken to extremes. Spanking can become a brutal beating. ‘Time outs’ can become a cruel banishment. Words can wound and even cripple. Even something as insidious as a withdrawal of affection violates Scripture and damages a child. Acting as if spanking is the only action that could ever lead to abuse is dishonest.
Certain terms and beliefs can affect how we teach/train/disciple unregenerate and regenerate children. Christ’s atonement doesn’t negate an eternity in Hell for youngsters old enough to understand the Gospel and reject Him, and we need to be careful that we do not inadvertently lead a child to believe they are saved, when in fact they have NOT received God’s grace through faith in Him. We should not allow children to think that God’s wrath and vengeance towards unrighteousness is negated by His grace, or vice/versa.
Wickedness is not an entity, or some misty floaty thing separated from humanity- by one man sin came into the world, and death, both physical and eternal, was the result of that sin for all mankind thereafter. I understand what we are trying to convey when we say that we ‘hate the sin and love the sinner’, but the two are spiritually intertwined until God performs a spiritual circumcision… also a God-ordained physically painful process perpetuated on babies in order to do nothing else but prove a point.
I agree with the author’s advice about how to respond in the public arena and keeping our priorities straight. There’s quite a bit said from some of today’s IFB pulpits about prayer and Bibles being taken out of public schools, media attacks on family and fatherhood- but that’s just a Godless society being Godless. Preaching and teaching should expound Scripture and address what is going on in the church, in the lives of the individuals in the pews- blasting society gets lots of response from the ‘Amen’ corner, but what does that do to equip the saints? IOW, if you are getting meat and potatoes from the pulpit, and chewing on it daily at home, you aren’t going to be so tempted to dumpster-dive the world’s Chicken McNuggets. The church’s appetite, generally speaking, is far too accustomed to and satisfied with junk food.
Anne,
1. Children are NOT part of the covenant until they are saved.
2. Christ vicarious bore the wrath of God upon Himself. No Christian is under the threat of condemnation (Rom 8:1). This does not rule out God’s “mastigoo” (punish, scourging, flogging). God’s dealing with us in grace includes necessary correction of wrong, not simply encouragement to do what is right.
2 Tim 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
All of these elements are necessary to equip to do what is right.
So the “grace” method you are advocating is actually not grace. It is a perversion at worst and misunderstanding at best.
If you wanted to deal with your children the way God would, then you will love your children enough to spank them. Your paradigm shift is obvious. Just let the scriptures inform you rather than culture or yet another person trying to be more clever than God.
1. Children are NOT part of the covenant until they are saved.
2. Christ vicarious bore the wrath of God upon Himself. No Christian is under the threat of condemnation (Rom 8:1). This does not rule out God’s “mastigoo” (punish, scourging, flogging). God’s dealing with us in grace includes necessary correction of wrong, not simply encouragement to do what is right.
2 Tim 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
All of these elements are necessary to equip to do what is right.
So the “grace” method you are advocating is actually not grace. It is a perversion at worst and misunderstanding at best.
If you wanted to deal with your children the way God would, then you will love your children enough to spank them. Your paradigm shift is obvious. Just let the scriptures inform you rather than culture or yet another person trying to be more clever than God.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
[Susan R] I think playing word games muddies waters that are already murky enough. Is there really a difference between “enforcing boundaries” and “punishment” and “consequences”? No - there isn’t. Try telling some guy in jail that he isn’t being punished- society is just “enforcing boundaries”. Ditto a child being sent to their room for a ‘time out’. All of those terms describe what is happening true - they are not mutually exclusive nor do they cancel each other out. Children need to understand that, and Scripture gives us a variety of ways to teach this principle to our children, one of which is the literal, physical rod.It is tremendously important that we distinguish between punishment and discipline. The entire doctrine of salvation hinges on this distinction.
Punitive or penal measures exist in the context of law and seek to redress grievances. It is what Aristotle called rectificatory (διορθωτικός) justice. It is not the person being corrected, but the wrong. It is settling the score:
The law looks only at the nature of damage, treating the parties as equal, and merely asking whether one has done and the other suffered injustice, whether one inflicted and the other has sustained damage. Hence the unjust being here the unequal, the judge endeavors to equalize it: inasmuch as when one man has received and the other has inflicted a blow, or one has killed and the other been killed, the line representing the suffering and doing of the deed is divided into unequal parts, but the judge endeavors to make them equal by the penalty or loss he imposes, taking away the gain.This idea of rectificatory justice is the foundation of the (originally Calvinist) doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement. It is expressed most clearly in the terms of covenant theology. Adam was charged with perfect obedience; his the successful completion of his charge was to result in immortality and blessedness for himself and all his descendents. The penalty was death, both for himself and all his descendents. He failed. Jesus, however, as a second Adam, perfectly kept the law, winning the reward of Adam. In order to apply that reward to anyone, though, he had to remove the curse caused by the first Adam. His death is the penal substitution for Adam’s sin. This grounds the doctrine of twofold justification: both the forgiveness of sin and the imputation of Christ’s active obedience. Justice is served. (Even those post-Calvinist Protestants who don’t subscribe to classical covenant theology should still be able to recognize the punitive underpinnings of the atonement and justification.)
Discipline or training is connected to the Greek word παιδεια (paideia). It concerns the formation of children. It is the process by which a child, under the guidance of tutors, develops physically, mentally, and socially into a well-formed adult. As such, it is primarily a positive thing. A common Greek phrase is παιδεια και τροφη (discipline and nurture). Now, paideia in the Greco-Roman world was not always what we would consider gentle today. However, it was non-punitive. The goal of discipline is not to redress wrong but to encourage positive growth. Why do basketball coaches make their players run sprints? Because they offended the coach, and he seeks satisfaction for the wrong done against him? No! So they will be quicker.
The life of the believer under sanctification is not penal. It cannot be. God does not have any more wrongs to right. Yet, he exercises discipline toward his people. God never acts toward his children except for their training in righteousness. Satisfaction for wrong or redress for grievance never enters into the equation. That said, both the Bible and life experience makes it clear that paideia is not always pleasant, and it involves measures that we certainly would not choose for ourselves. Punishment and discipline may sometimes look similar, but they are always distinguishable by the intention behind them. Because the intentions behind them are different, it does mean that there is much more flexibility in paideia than in punishment. One of my former pastors used to say that if you want to parent punitively, then you have to punish every single wrong. To do differently would be to miscarry justice. After all, God does not just pass over any sin. Every single wrong (at least for the elect) was accounted for in the atonement; every single penalty paid.
Now, corporal punishment is not necessarily punitive. Anne realizes this, since she said that parents are free to spank; she would not say parents are free to parent punitively. However, I think that she is right in thinking that much spanking, and probably other forms of punishment as well, arise from the parents’ mistakenly pursuing a punitive paradigm. That’s a shame; these are truths about our salvation that ought to be influencing the way we live our lives.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
Bro. Charlie- I agree that there is a deeper understanding of God and one’s place in eternity that can be had in the dynamics of the parent/child relationship.
To better explain my point, here are 3 scenarios (the Reader’s Digest Condensed Version and totally on the fly):
A child is wigging out and:
*the parent is exasperated, and instead of dealing with the misbehavior, sends the child to their room to get them out of their sight.
*the parent knows that the child hates to be alone, and in their anger vindictively sends the child to their room.
*the parent spends time verbally addressing the misbehavior and explaining the consequences, and believes the best solution at that time is for the child to spend some time alone in their room.
What is the difference between these three scenarios? The motive/intent of the parent. The first is sloth, the second is vengeance, and the third is teaching/training. This is not determined by the actions of the child, and technically not determined by the form of discipline. However, because of the demeanor of the parent, each of these children will learn a different lesson from this scenario. The parent’s attitude determines whether or not correction is punitive or an act of discipling as much as the method itself.
Regardless of how you ‘enforce boundaries’ with young children, they do not view a thwarting of their desires as being anything other than punishment. Older children can reason the ‘cause-effect’ aspect of consequences for misconduct, but they will still view a removal of privileges as being punitive because that is how our flesh perceives it. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to learn to love correction.
In any case, the behaviors and attitudes that the parents model will be the main teaching tool in the life of the family, and that is why it is problematic to view discipline as being all about the methods and not about the people involved, and why attempting to stigmatize spanking as being inherently punitive while granting inherent ‘grace’ to other methods of ‘enforcing boundaries’ or ‘experiencing consequences’ is just word games.
To better explain my point, here are 3 scenarios (the Reader’s Digest Condensed Version and totally on the fly):
A child is wigging out and:
*the parent is exasperated, and instead of dealing with the misbehavior, sends the child to their room to get them out of their sight.
*the parent knows that the child hates to be alone, and in their anger vindictively sends the child to their room.
*the parent spends time verbally addressing the misbehavior and explaining the consequences, and believes the best solution at that time is for the child to spend some time alone in their room.
What is the difference between these three scenarios? The motive/intent of the parent. The first is sloth, the second is vengeance, and the third is teaching/training. This is not determined by the actions of the child, and technically not determined by the form of discipline. However, because of the demeanor of the parent, each of these children will learn a different lesson from this scenario. The parent’s attitude determines whether or not correction is punitive or an act of discipling as much as the method itself.
Regardless of how you ‘enforce boundaries’ with young children, they do not view a thwarting of their desires as being anything other than punishment. Older children can reason the ‘cause-effect’ aspect of consequences for misconduct, but they will still view a removal of privileges as being punitive because that is how our flesh perceives it. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to learn to love correction.
In any case, the behaviors and attitudes that the parents model will be the main teaching tool in the life of the family, and that is why it is problematic to view discipline as being all about the methods and not about the people involved, and why attempting to stigmatize spanking as being inherently punitive while granting inherent ‘grace’ to other methods of ‘enforcing boundaries’ or ‘experiencing consequences’ is just word games.
I’m not sure he’s still keeping up w/the thread, so I’ll give him an invite via email. I think a thorough study at the exegetical level would be most most welcome.
Often, talk of paradigms is a way of winning a debate before it occurs. If somebody succeeds in framing the question as a choice between two options, for example, they can easily paint the option that is not theirs in a sinister/inferior light.
If you think about it, you can see how easy this is to do… imagine that the question is a big piece of pie and your answer to it is a sliver an inch or two wide at the end. If you can lump all the other answers together, all you have to do to reject them is find the worst elements in the rest of the pie. This is easy to do because the rest of the pie is so large.
To use another analogy, suppose you want to prove that retrievers are the best dogs. You could frame the debate as follows: “Which are best, retrievers or non-retrievers?” If readers don’t notice what you’ve done, they’ll be open to this kind of argument:
See the fallacy? But this sort of argument works well for folks who already suspect that retrievers are best, fear that non retrievers are bad, or have some other kind of tilt toward the conclusion.
Someone who is coming at the question from even ground—or has a non-retriever that is great (beagle maybe) finds the argument wholly unpersuasive.
So in anti-spanking lit., look for framing tricks. (They don’t necessarily do it deceitfully… probably not. It’s just that when you already want to believe something it’s easy to not notice that your argument is unsound)
Often, talk of paradigms is a way of winning a debate before it occurs. If somebody succeeds in framing the question as a choice between two options, for example, they can easily paint the option that is not theirs in a sinister/inferior light.
If you think about it, you can see how easy this is to do… imagine that the question is a big piece of pie and your answer to it is a sliver an inch or two wide at the end. If you can lump all the other answers together, all you have to do to reject them is find the worst elements in the rest of the pie. This is easy to do because the rest of the pie is so large.
To use another analogy, suppose you want to prove that retrievers are the best dogs. You could frame the debate as follows: “Which are best, retrievers or non-retrievers?” If readers don’t notice what you’ve done, they’ll be open to this kind of argument:
- non retrievers have been bred for fighting (true of pit bulls)
- non retrievers tire easily (true of pugs)
- non retrievers constantly drool (true of some types of hound)
See the fallacy? But this sort of argument works well for folks who already suspect that retrievers are best, fear that non retrievers are bad, or have some other kind of tilt toward the conclusion.
Someone who is coming at the question from even ground—or has a non-retriever that is great (beagle maybe) finds the argument wholly unpersuasive.
So in anti-spanking lit., look for framing tricks. (They don’t necessarily do it deceitfully… probably not. It’s just that when you already want to believe something it’s easy to not notice that your argument is unsound)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer] It’s just that when you already want to believe something it’s easy to not notice that your argument is unsoundThese are true, true words. This is often what leads to eisegesis.
… is that I don’t ever have to spank, or do anything intentionally painful in training my children.
That option would be…
Ro 5:3–5 ESV Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Jas 1:2–4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
That option would be…
- Less painful for me
- More socially acceptable
- More academically acceptable
- Legally safer
- Easier to depict as gracious
Ro 5:3–5 ESV Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Jas 1:2–4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Christopher Cone] Perhaps in the very near future I will write an article for this website (if the Editor is interested in such an article) on a Biblical Theology of Discipline, which will show the exegetical work (in Hebrew and Greek) leading to the conclusions that physical discipline is indeed mandated in the Bible, thus providing the simple answer to the question: “Why should I spank my kids?” I will propose the idea to the Editor, and if he has interest I will write the article. Then you can review it and consider whether or not it is an accurate handling of the [email protected].Personally,. I would love to read an article like that. I hope SI would encourge Chistopher to do it and place it on th sit. As a mattter of fact, a book no the theology of discipline wuld be even better.
I grew up using James Dobson’s practical advice on disciple…actually, only read one or two books. They have been a great help. But a Theology of Discipline is, as I see it, a great need; I do not know of any book that has approached discipline from the way Christopher proposes to write an article.
[Aaron Blumer]… is that I don’t ever have to spank, or do anything intentionally painful in training my children.I am here to testify that this is not true. I could count on one hand the people I know personally who have chosen not to spank. I am swimming against the stream. Do you all think I enjoy these discussions? Like James dumping his hate and scarcasm all over me? …
That option would be…But I don’t get to have it that way. The grace of God teaches… and we know that this teaching includes pain.
- Less painful for me
- More socially acceptable
- More academically acceptable
- Legally safer
- Easier to depict as gracious
Ro 5:3–5 ESV Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Jas 1:2–4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Grace to you, James. I once was you. If not for God’s hand, I would be the same, same way. My sinful person is the same as yours.
I think the idea of pain is distracting us. I find pain very useful and very painful. My children experience pain. Life is full of it. I don’t inflict it upon them through spanking. But it is painful for them when I say, no I’m sorry, you can’t have another cookie, when I tell them they have to brush their teeth and hair when they don’t want to? Life is painful. Being sinful is painful.
But there is a huge, enormous difference between punitive and grace parenting, and Charlie is trying to explain it. It is all about our salvation. It is, for example, me being on the same team as my children, not seeing our negative interactions as a “battle of wills” that I “must win.” But seeing that both my children and I are sinners, that we both struggle with our sin natures daily, and we are thankful for grace—that Christ took our punishment and curse on the cross (Isaiah 53)—that I can come along side them and help them unto obedience though imperfectly.
… I love You, God, and I see every day more and more how much You have done for me and come alongside me most gently and lovingly to forgive my sins and clean me from all unrighteousness. Teach me to love my children as You love me.
so do I discipline/correct/punish (whatever you want to call it) a repentant child even if they’ve broken an obvious rule?
Anne, I don’t think you should blame God for your views. He gave us his views, which are ignored and explained away by you.
While you see sarcasm from me, I am really expressing concern over your erroneous views of God and his grace. You don’t deal in substance. I gave you the greek word in Heb 12 and its definition. This is how God deals with us. So in your closing when you say
As for being once like me, I hope you aren’t anything like me. Our goal is Christlikeness. If you are talking about my view of spanking, then I hope one day you come back to a reality based form of parenting as set forth in the Scriptures rather than culture and convenience.
While you see sarcasm from me, I am really expressing concern over your erroneous views of God and his grace. You don’t deal in substance. I gave you the greek word in Heb 12 and its definition. This is how God deals with us. So in your closing when you say
I love You, God, and I see every day more and more how much You have done for me and come alongside me most gently and lovingly to forgive my sins and clean me from all unrighteousness. Teach me to love my children as You love me.you fail to take in all of what God said and how he deals with us. You have a distorted view so naturally your method will be distorted. He has taught us how to teach and love our children. Failing to spank fails to do both.
As for being once like me, I hope you aren’t anything like me. Our goal is Christlikeness. If you are talking about my view of spanking, then I hope one day you come back to a reality based form of parenting as set forth in the Scriptures rather than culture and convenience.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
[handerson] so do I discipline/correct/punish (whatever you want to call it) a repentant child even if they’ve broken an obvious rule?I woudn’t “punish” my child. As far as discipline (as teaching), I think it really depends on the child and the situation. What is the purpose of the teaching if the child is already repentant? There may be consquences that have naturally arisen from the situation, and I would probably not nix the natural outcomes and might try to put myself in the place where I bear it with the child. I think it’s a complex decision actually, one where the parent needs to be aware of the child’s personal struggles and spiritual condition. Maybe there would be certain situations where I’d nix the consequences somewhat or at least help lighten them if I felt like the child was too discouraged spiritually. I think that God doesn’t always deal with us negatively when we sin, if you know what I mean. He might insert a positive experience to help encourage us in some way.
I was recently having a conversation with a woman in our church. She’s divorced/single mom, and at one point a few yrs back commited adultery. She was talking about how overwhelmed she was by God’s love to her when it is so undeserved. (And I said, even when we think we’re deserving it, we’re really not ;) ). She said, after I repented from that sin, one week later my son repented and was saved. God didn’t punish me; He blessed me… . . I have been thinking about that.
James, I need to go back to not acknowledging you ;) You make my point. God bless you and your children!
Hi Anne, I have no doubt you have studied this out quite a bit and are fully convinced in your mind what you (and your husband) have decided for your household, in the way of Deut. 6, teaching and discipline, is what is best for your children. What a rarity these days. Women who will interact and engage the mind for the most important of matters, and what God calls us to do. Too many of us spend time and resources on everything, but… what a blessing to know other women around the country are working toward an eternal end! :)
Honestly, I haven’t interacted with you, personally, on this matter because I haven’t read Clarkson’s book so I’m completely ignorant (besides some of these postings here) on what he believes or who he even is. I had never even heard of him until this website.
Personally, I find it hard to ignore passages like Heb. 12:6, where the writer uses the word “scourge” (NASB) which appears 6 other times in the Greek directly relating to physical scourging of the disciples or Jesus Himself. Please, please correct me if I’m wrong. I understand the subject of that word is God Himself, but He is the One Who sets Himself up as the example there, so it is hard for me to ignore. There are others, but I have no doubt you and Clarkson have worked through many, if not all of those passages.
The encouragement I hope I can give to you is in response to when you said this:
I could count on one hand the people I know personally who have chosen not to spank. I am swimming against the stream.
I found this statement interesting. Assuming the people you “personally know” are Christians, your church family, leaders in your church and other like-minded, saved individuals; swimming upstream is not always a good thing. Again, assuming “your crowd” is a base of solid, loving, Christ-like Christians, like you, then be careful of swimming upstream from them. Not to say we all don’t have our convictions or feel like a salmon at times, but in my case, the folks I “know personally” are ones, who if they are practicing something I’m not, then I’m the one who is going to check and double check my own heart/mind/conclusions/standards/Scripture interpretations. If they are swimming one way, and I’m swimming the other way, particularly in such a practical matter, then I need to rethink some things through Scripture, alone. These are the people I trust with every area of my life, because they serve and are regenerated by the same God. If the people I personally know tell me I’m “the odd man out” I better heed quickly. I don’t want to be innovative or a trailblazer or a pioneer when it comes to Scripture. I want to sink into the background and be as patterned as I can be within the crowd I hang around knowing their (and my) desire is to be conformed to Christ’s image. (Heb. 13:7 stff) After all, we’re a body, and in my case, our church body functions very well, by God’s grace.
Isn’t this what Paul commands Titus to teach? Older women are to teach the younger women how to love their children and be a good worker at home. If the majority of older women have come to the conclusion that spanking is commanded, then my response as a younger woman is to humbly recheck my understanding of Scripture, alone, if I disagree. The implied command in Titus 2:3-5 to younger women is we are to be teachable learning from these older women.
I can understand if these Sharper Iron guys aren’t swaying or persuading you (sorry guys—I mean no disrespect) because frankly, I’m not always convinced either, and I have no doubt many of things I write here are just plain silly to them (rhetorical statement). :) But surely, the people I personally know have great influence on me when it comes to biblical application. These are people I know, trust and serve me without hypocrisy. Their God is my God and their study of Scripture is where I get most of my sharpening (sorry Aaron).
In fact, the only group I want to swim upstream against are the people who succumb to cultural temptations and worldly ways: Acts 5:29 stuff. In my limited knowledge, it is actually the “spankers” who are swimming upstream—and speaking for myself—it is a whitewater, rocky swim.
I hope this helps as you (and I!) continue to walk this journey of desiring to grow and mature into biblical-minded women.
Blessings, Kim :)
Honestly, I haven’t interacted with you, personally, on this matter because I haven’t read Clarkson’s book so I’m completely ignorant (besides some of these postings here) on what he believes or who he even is. I had never even heard of him until this website.
Personally, I find it hard to ignore passages like Heb. 12:6, where the writer uses the word “scourge” (NASB) which appears 6 other times in the Greek directly relating to physical scourging of the disciples or Jesus Himself. Please, please correct me if I’m wrong. I understand the subject of that word is God Himself, but He is the One Who sets Himself up as the example there, so it is hard for me to ignore. There are others, but I have no doubt you and Clarkson have worked through many, if not all of those passages.
The encouragement I hope I can give to you is in response to when you said this:
I could count on one hand the people I know personally who have chosen not to spank. I am swimming against the stream.
I found this statement interesting. Assuming the people you “personally know” are Christians, your church family, leaders in your church and other like-minded, saved individuals; swimming upstream is not always a good thing. Again, assuming “your crowd” is a base of solid, loving, Christ-like Christians, like you, then be careful of swimming upstream from them. Not to say we all don’t have our convictions or feel like a salmon at times, but in my case, the folks I “know personally” are ones, who if they are practicing something I’m not, then I’m the one who is going to check and double check my own heart/mind/conclusions/standards/Scripture interpretations. If they are swimming one way, and I’m swimming the other way, particularly in such a practical matter, then I need to rethink some things through Scripture, alone. These are the people I trust with every area of my life, because they serve and are regenerated by the same God. If the people I personally know tell me I’m “the odd man out” I better heed quickly. I don’t want to be innovative or a trailblazer or a pioneer when it comes to Scripture. I want to sink into the background and be as patterned as I can be within the crowd I hang around knowing their (and my) desire is to be conformed to Christ’s image. (Heb. 13:7 stff) After all, we’re a body, and in my case, our church body functions very well, by God’s grace.
Isn’t this what Paul commands Titus to teach? Older women are to teach the younger women how to love their children and be a good worker at home. If the majority of older women have come to the conclusion that spanking is commanded, then my response as a younger woman is to humbly recheck my understanding of Scripture, alone, if I disagree. The implied command in Titus 2:3-5 to younger women is we are to be teachable learning from these older women.
I can understand if these Sharper Iron guys aren’t swaying or persuading you (sorry guys—I mean no disrespect) because frankly, I’m not always convinced either, and I have no doubt many of things I write here are just plain silly to them (rhetorical statement). :) But surely, the people I personally know have great influence on me when it comes to biblical application. These are people I know, trust and serve me without hypocrisy. Their God is my God and their study of Scripture is where I get most of my sharpening (sorry Aaron).
In fact, the only group I want to swim upstream against are the people who succumb to cultural temptations and worldly ways: Acts 5:29 stuff. In my limited knowledge, it is actually the “spankers” who are swimming upstream—and speaking for myself—it is a whitewater, rocky swim.
I hope this helps as you (and I!) continue to walk this journey of desiring to grow and mature into biblical-minded women.
Blessings, Kim :)
Hi, Kim,
Now, those are really good observations that I would like to mention. I have, I think, two friends I’ve actually met in real life who also don’t spank, I think for theological reasons. Oh, maybe three. I have quite a few online acquaintances who have been led by the Lord into this theological understanding of grace, salvation, depravity, etc., and how it applies to our children. And several of them are actually from Bob Jones, where I graduated! Several came out of the woodwork a few months back when I did a piece on Tedd Tripp’s book here on SI.
About our church, oh my, at 35, I feel like I am the older woman ;) My kids are the oldest ones in church. I don’t try to make this much of an issue for example at the mommy group we have. My pastor is my husband, and our other pastor has read, in Russian, an extended letter I wrote to another pastor in town here about this whole issue and other things, and he agrees with it. I was just thinking a few days ago how thankful I am that the *spank more, spank harder* mentality is not a part of our church. We don’t expect perfection from each other, we try to share our struggles, things that worked in our relationships, and try very hard not to judge each other because we are all different in our approaches to mothering and our kids personalities and needs.
Oh, I did remember that we have some elderly ladies in our church, but they really don’t talk about childrearing except for loving on our kids as they can at service times. The elder pastor’s wife, I actually am not sure—she teaches us many things, but childrearing is not one subject she has talked a lot about b/c usually when she’s teaching, it’s to everyone, and only a few of us have kids. We did just do a women’s conference on Freedom for Mothers by Denise Glenn for moms, but we did it as applicable to all women.
My mom read the paper I wrote for SI a few months back about Tedd Tripp’s book, and she thought it wonderful. She added that the NIV Commentary says the same things about the rod passages that Clarkson is saying—it applies to older children. My parents did spank us, but it wasn’t often. As far as I know, I think all my other siblings spank their kids. We just accept each other and don’t make issues of it.
About Hebrews 12, it really helps me to remember that the context is persecuted Christians, not disobedient Christians. Like, if you put yourself in the shoes of the Iranian pastor in prison now (in the filings section), and read Heb 10:32-12, it seem to fit into that context as very encouraging to those who are suffering for Christ’s sake.
I was pondering this whole thing today, and it really occurred to me that spanking is actually just a peripheral issue, a symptomatic issue. The real issues are our own understanding of our total depravity, the extent and nature of salvation, what grace means, our unerstanding of obedience, and stuff like that. I feel like I write very stutteringly on here because it is so hard to put into words. Charlie knows how to do it better than I, and I’m thankful for that. But I am trying to wrap words around it, however frustratingly and imperfectly ;)
Now, those are really good observations that I would like to mention. I have, I think, two friends I’ve actually met in real life who also don’t spank, I think for theological reasons. Oh, maybe three. I have quite a few online acquaintances who have been led by the Lord into this theological understanding of grace, salvation, depravity, etc., and how it applies to our children. And several of them are actually from Bob Jones, where I graduated! Several came out of the woodwork a few months back when I did a piece on Tedd Tripp’s book here on SI.
About our church, oh my, at 35, I feel like I am the older woman ;) My kids are the oldest ones in church. I don’t try to make this much of an issue for example at the mommy group we have. My pastor is my husband, and our other pastor has read, in Russian, an extended letter I wrote to another pastor in town here about this whole issue and other things, and he agrees with it. I was just thinking a few days ago how thankful I am that the *spank more, spank harder* mentality is not a part of our church. We don’t expect perfection from each other, we try to share our struggles, things that worked in our relationships, and try very hard not to judge each other because we are all different in our approaches to mothering and our kids personalities and needs.
Oh, I did remember that we have some elderly ladies in our church, but they really don’t talk about childrearing except for loving on our kids as they can at service times. The elder pastor’s wife, I actually am not sure—she teaches us many things, but childrearing is not one subject she has talked a lot about b/c usually when she’s teaching, it’s to everyone, and only a few of us have kids. We did just do a women’s conference on Freedom for Mothers by Denise Glenn for moms, but we did it as applicable to all women.
My mom read the paper I wrote for SI a few months back about Tedd Tripp’s book, and she thought it wonderful. She added that the NIV Commentary says the same things about the rod passages that Clarkson is saying—it applies to older children. My parents did spank us, but it wasn’t often. As far as I know, I think all my other siblings spank their kids. We just accept each other and don’t make issues of it.
About Hebrews 12, it really helps me to remember that the context is persecuted Christians, not disobedient Christians. Like, if you put yourself in the shoes of the Iranian pastor in prison now (in the filings section), and read Heb 10:32-12, it seem to fit into that context as very encouraging to those who are suffering for Christ’s sake.
I was pondering this whole thing today, and it really occurred to me that spanking is actually just a peripheral issue, a symptomatic issue. The real issues are our own understanding of our total depravity, the extent and nature of salvation, what grace means, our unerstanding of obedience, and stuff like that. I feel like I write very stutteringly on here because it is so hard to put into words. Charlie knows how to do it better than I, and I’m thankful for that. But I am trying to wrap words around it, however frustratingly and imperfectly ;)
This disagreement is like so many between Christians. Each of us thinks that we (and those who believe as we do) are interpreting the Bible “correctly.”
I do not enjoy these discussions and would avoid them except that I was once a young mother who felt the Holy Spirit leading her toward gentle discipline. I read the Bible; I argued with what the Holy Spirit was teaching me. I resisted going against the beliefs that I had been taught … and yet God kept drawing me away from spanking my children. God (not The World) showed me how to discipline in this way.
I only enter these discussions for other mothers with whom the Holy Spirit is leading down this path. I enter these discussions and state what God has taught me and the reality that you can be a “Bible-believing” Christian and not spank. I am one. I enter these discussions for the silent readers who are being told that Christian parents MUST spank … that to do otherwise is ignoring scripture and being disobedient to God. Is spanking really such a fundamental to the faith? Is it? If you believe so, that’s fine. However, do not hear the Holy Spirit whispering in your heart to gently and tenderly discipline your children and allow others to tell you that His voice is the voice of The World or of Satan.
I do not enjoy these discussions and would avoid them except that I was once a young mother who felt the Holy Spirit leading her toward gentle discipline. I read the Bible; I argued with what the Holy Spirit was teaching me. I resisted going against the beliefs that I had been taught … and yet God kept drawing me away from spanking my children. God (not The World) showed me how to discipline in this way.
I only enter these discussions for other mothers with whom the Holy Spirit is leading down this path. I enter these discussions and state what God has taught me and the reality that you can be a “Bible-believing” Christian and not spank. I am one. I enter these discussions for the silent readers who are being told that Christian parents MUST spank … that to do otherwise is ignoring scripture and being disobedient to God. Is spanking really such a fundamental to the faith? Is it? If you believe so, that’s fine. However, do not hear the Holy Spirit whispering in your heart to gently and tenderly discipline your children and allow others to tell you that His voice is the voice of The World or of Satan.
[Anne Sokol]Anne, I think James does use overly provocative language at times… probably not helpful. But you also don’t seem to be commenting on point. That is, I’ve made some assertions and supported them but you don’t seem to be addressing the substance much.
I am here to testify that this is not true. I could count on one hand the people I know personally who have chosen not to spank. I am swimming against the stream. Do you all think I enjoy these discussions? Like James dumping his hate and scarcasm all over me? …
Grace to you, James. I once was you. If not for God’s hand, I would be the same, same way. My sinful person is the same as yours.
I think the idea of pain is distracting us. I find pain very useful and very painful. My children experience pain. Life is full of it. I don’t inflict it upon them through spanking. But it is painful for them when I say, no I’m sorry, you can’t have another cookie, when I tell them they have to brush their teeth and hair when they don’t want to? Life is painful. Being sinful is painful.
But there is a huge, enormous difference between punitive and grace parenting, and Charlie is trying to explain it. It is all about our salvation. It is, for example, me being on the same team as my children, not seeing our negative interactions as a “battle of wills” that I “must win.” But seeing that both my children and I are sinners, that we both struggle with our sin natures daily, and we are thankful for grace—that Christ took our punishment and curse on the cross (Isaiah 53)—that I can come along side them and help them unto obedience though imperfectly.
… I love You, God, and I see every day more and more how much You have done for me and come alongside me most gently and lovingly to forgive my sins and clean me from all unrighteousness. Teach me to love my children as You love me.
(Some things that are not in dispute: that sin is painful, that parents should avoid battles of wills—and do everything they can to foster a close nurturing relationship rather than an adversarial one, that saying “no” involves some pain of disappointment on the child’s part, that parenting should be gracious, that Christ took our punishment on the cross, etc. I don’t think anybody here is in favor of viewing parental discipline as punishment—though I agree with Susan that kids are likely to see it that way and only slowly come to understand what’s really going on.)
So, I’m curious. In your view…
- Does God graciously use pain to teach and train His children or not?
- Does Heb. 12 refer to parents using painful discipline and assume that there is nothing wrong with that?
- If not, what is the point in the writer of Hebrews using the analogy?
- Is there a difference between punitive and instructive?
- Was the use of spanking and the like standard practice in Christian homes until recent times?
- Does society and/or academia view it as a valid part of good parenting?
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
No- not a washing machine. Although front loaders are awesome. But again with the front loading the discussion by referring to non-spanking as ‘gentle’ and ‘tender’, which by proxy appears to be an attempt to characterize spanking as inherently unloving, unkind, and even violent. Also, trying to discount those who believe that spanking is shown to be an important teaching tool in Scripture as making spanking a ‘fundamental’ of the faith.
What is fundamental is obedience to God’s commands, patterns, and principles, whether we are comfortable with them or not, regardless of what society considers valid, or which direction everyone is swimming.
What is fundamental is obedience to God’s commands, patterns, and principles, whether we are comfortable with them or not, regardless of what society considers valid, or which direction everyone is swimming.
[Susan R] No- not a washing machine. Although front loaders are awesome. But again with the front loading the discussion by referring to non-spanking as ‘gentle’ and ‘tender’, which by proxy appears to be an attempt to characterize spanking as inherently unloving, unkind, and even violent. Also, trying to discount those who believe that spanking is shown to be an important teaching tool in Scripture as making spanking a ‘fundamental’ of the faith.So, you are asserting that Christians should view spanking as loving, kind, non-violent, tender, and gentle?
What is fundamental is obedience to God’s commands, patterns, and principles, whether we are comfortable with them or not, regardless of what society considers valid, or which direction everyone is swimming.
How could I describe my parenting without offending you?
Rachel and Anne, part of the difficulty you both are facing is that you keep blaming God for leading you to do things contrary to His word. When you heap on top of that the fact that you both go against explicit Scriptural mandates, well some people just find such comments as out of place among those who would agree with this from the Statement of Faith:
1. The plenary Divine inspiration of the Scriptures in the original languages, their consequent inerrancy and infallibility, and as the Word of God, the supreme and final authority in faith and life.
I find your arguments and statements to be no different than telling someone God led you to stop going to church. They are so obviously false.
1. The plenary Divine inspiration of the Scriptures in the original languages, their consequent inerrancy and infallibility, and as the Word of God, the supreme and final authority in faith and life.
I find your arguments and statements to be no different than telling someone God led you to stop going to church. They are so obviously false.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Hi Rachel, I’m beginning to see maybe where you and I might disagree and it would start before the spanking vs. non-spanking issue. It starts with your question:
However, do not hear the Holy Spirit whispering in your heart to gently and tenderly discipline your children and allow others to tell you that His voice is the voice of The World or of Satan.
I’m quite sure the Holy Spirit only speaks through Scripture in the same way Christians are only led by Scripture. So if I can be fork-tongued for a moment, while I (not intentionally) may have dissed some of the guys here on SI in a previous post on this thread, I can assure you I am every bit blessed by the rigorous discussion and healthy engagement many of these (well-trained, well-educated) men engage in when it comes to sola scriptura. The Holy Spirit only leads by and through Scripture. It is a divine, objective commentary and not subjective to a Jeremiah 17:9 desperately sick heart. So many men on here trust this fact which is why I am blessed to read the articles and comments.
Matt. 4:4, But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’” (NASB) My understanding is that God-breathed words (or words that proceed out of the mouth of God) are only found in Scripture and because the canon is closed, nothing else can be added or taken away regardless of how genuine we believe our experiences to be.
I, too, don’t enjoy confrontation, but want to comment for those “silent audience members” of Christians—certainly a noble cause you have undertaken.
Blessings, Kim :)
However, do not hear the Holy Spirit whispering in your heart to gently and tenderly discipline your children and allow others to tell you that His voice is the voice of The World or of Satan.
I’m quite sure the Holy Spirit only speaks through Scripture in the same way Christians are only led by Scripture. So if I can be fork-tongued for a moment, while I (not intentionally) may have dissed some of the guys here on SI in a previous post on this thread, I can assure you I am every bit blessed by the rigorous discussion and healthy engagement many of these (well-trained, well-educated) men engage in when it comes to sola scriptura. The Holy Spirit only leads by and through Scripture. It is a divine, objective commentary and not subjective to a Jeremiah 17:9 desperately sick heart. So many men on here trust this fact which is why I am blessed to read the articles and comments.
Matt. 4:4, But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’” (NASB) My understanding is that God-breathed words (or words that proceed out of the mouth of God) are only found in Scripture and because the canon is closed, nothing else can be added or taken away regardless of how genuine we believe our experiences to be.
I, too, don’t enjoy confrontation, but want to comment for those “silent audience members” of Christians—certainly a noble cause you have undertaken.
Blessings, Kim :)
[Rachel L.]You are not offending me, Rachel, and you are not accountable to me for how you parent your children. What we are discussing here is ‘what are the Biblical guidelines for parents’, not ‘what Rachel thinks is best’. I am not the least bit interested in how you parent. I am objecting to spanking being characterized as inherently cruel and violent.[Susan R] No- not a washing machine. Although front loaders are awesome. But again with the front loading the discussion by referring to non-spanking as ‘gentle’ and ‘tender’, which by proxy appears to be an attempt to characterize spanking as inherently unloving, unkind, and even violent. Also, trying to discount those who believe that spanking is shown to be an important teaching tool in Scripture as making spanking a ‘fundamental’ of the faith.So, you are asserting that Christians should view spanking as loving, kind, non-violent, tender, and gentle?
What is fundamental is obedience to God’s commands, patterns, and principles, whether we are comfortable with them or not, regardless of what society considers valid, or which direction everyone is swimming.
How could I describe my parenting without offending you?
God is loving and gentle, and yet He still scourges His own using circumstances like sickness and death and captivity and famine and opening the earth to swallow people live into the pit. Is God always ‘non-violent’?
What’s more, spanking can be gentle, loving, and nonviolent, used by a parent who is teaching and training their child, not acting in frustration and anger.
Kim,
I’m not entirely sure I understand where our disagreement starts. Could you elaborate?
In the above post you seemed to be implying that I was led astray by the Holy Spirit whispering in my heart, but I’m not entirely certain that is our point of disagreement. I will assure you that nothing that was “whispered” to me was counter to scripture as I (and many people more learned than I) read it. The fullness of the grace of the gospel has actually been revealed to me on this journey. I completely agree with Anne’s statement:
I’m not entirely sure I understand where our disagreement starts. Could you elaborate?
In the above post you seemed to be implying that I was led astray by the Holy Spirit whispering in my heart, but I’m not entirely certain that is our point of disagreement. I will assure you that nothing that was “whispered” to me was counter to scripture as I (and many people more learned than I) read it. The fullness of the grace of the gospel has actually been revealed to me on this journey. I completely agree with Anne’s statement:
I have found that this issue goes very deeply into the heart of major theological doctrines
Discussion