A Tale of Two Colleges
This week brings fascinating news from two colleges. The two institutions are facing almost opposite situations, and the contrast between them is both remarkable and illustrative. Because change occurs constantly, Christian organizations are constantly required to apply their principles to new situations. Cedarville University and Faith Baptist Bible College provide a clear contrast in terms of how new applications might take place.
The school that is now Cedarville University started out as a Bible institute in Cleveland. During the early 1950s it acquired the name and campus of Cedarville College, formerly a Presbyterian school. For many years, Cedarville College staked out its identity as a fundamentalist, Baptist institution. Under the leadership of James T. Jeremiah, it was one of the flagship schools identified with the Regular Baptist movement.
In 1978, Paul Dixon became president of the college. He brought with him a vision to make Cedarville into a world-class university. Regular Baptists, however, had neither the numerical nor the economic strength to fulfill his dream. Dixon needed a larger constituency and broader appeal, and in pursuit of these goals he began to downplay some of the distinctives that Regular Baptists thought important. There was a softening of ecclesiastical separation as the platform featured a broader variety of evangelicals. There was an increasing openness and even friendliness toward the more current trends in popular culture. There was even a shifting of the criteria for faculty selection. By the early 1990s, Cedarville professors were putting themselves publicly on record for their (belated) support of the Equal Rights Amendment—legislation that was almost universally opposed by conservative Christians of all sorts.
As Cedarville broadened its appeal, it experienced growing tensions with Regular Baptists. These tensions came to a head when, at the end of Dixon’s tenure, Cedarville formally identified with the Southern Baptist state convention in Ohio. Under the new president, William Brown, the university refused to endorse the Statement of Purpose of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, a requirement for partnering institutions. For both these reasons, the GARBC terminated its partnership with Cedarville in 2006.
The divorce was ugly, at least on the Cedarville side. Since the GARBC national conference was held in Michigan that year, Cedarville supporters were transported by busloads to try to overwhelm the vote. At one point some threatened to rush the platform if a particular parliamentary ruling did not go their way. In the end, however, the association had the votes to remove Cedarville from partnership.
Shortly thereafter, scandal erupted on campus as a couple of the most conservative tenured professors were terminated suddenly. Alarmed constituents formed watchdog groups and began to spread word of theological aberrations. Most Cedarville constituents found these charges difficult to believe, but the university continued to show signs of movement away from its fundamentalist roots. In an attempt to reassure conservatives, in 2011 the university adopted white papers dealing with creation, with justification, and with divine omniscience.
The situation, however, continued to deteriorate. In 2012, a professor was fired for teaching that the opening chapters of Genesis were non-historical. Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.
In response, the board placed the philosophy major under review and indicated its intention to end the program. In October, President Brown tendered his resignation, followed by a key vice president in January 2013—many believed under pressure from the board. In response to concerns that Cedarville might be moving in a fundamentalist direction, board chairman Lorne Sharnberg was quoted as saying that Cedarville “isn’t moving anywhere. We’re staying right where we’ve always been.” Ironically, these are the very words that the Cedarville leadership used to say when it was moving away from fundamentalism.
While these events have been taking place at Cedarville, Faith Baptist Bible College has been facing a difficult decision of its own. The school long ago staked out a position that was traditionally dispensationalist, strongly Baptist, and conservative in its appropriation of contemporary popular culture. It has required its students to become members in churches that share these commitments.
Through the years, one of the congregations that allied itself with Faith was Saylorville Baptist Church. Dozens of students and several staff are members at Saylorville, and in many ways (for example, its commitment to evangelism) Saylorville models values that Faith shares. Over the years, however, Saylorville has adopted an increasingly contemporary ministry, and it has recently dropped the word Baptist from its name. As Saylorville has made these moves, Faith has felt considerable pressure to soften its commitment to its principles and to broaden its appeal.
Decades ago, one of the presidents of Faith Baptist Bible College (David Nettleton) argued that when Christians disagree, they must either limit their message or limit their fellowship. This past week, Faith’s board made the decision to stand by its message and allow its fellowship to shrink. Students and staff will no longer be permitted to join Saylorville Church.
This may represent the hardest decision that the administration and board at Faith has ever made. They are not angry with Saylorville. They love its pastor and its staff, and they believe that Saylorville is in some ways a good model. They are not denouncing the church, but they are separating from it at one level. They are making this move because, if they do not, their principles will be obscured. They are aware that the decision will be costly.
Cedarville and Faith represent opposite approaches to the application of principles in changing situations. Cedarville committed itself to wider influence and was willing to sacrifice principles in order to obtain it. Faith has committed itself to maintain its principles, and it is willing to accept narrower influence in order to uphold them. Both have responded to change, but they have responded in opposite directions.
Granted, sometimes Christians hold mistaken principles that they ought to revise. Simply to abandon principles in favor of increased influence, however, is a devil’s bargain. Once principles have been obscured, they become very difficult to clarify. Both Faith and Cedarville will face some unhappy constituents. Cedarville’s will be unhappy because their school’s position is not clear. Faith’s will be unhappy because their school’s is. The difference is this: no one is attracted to obscurity and uncertainty, but some may be attracted to a clearly stated position when it is consistently maintained.
Christ Jesus Lay in Death’s Strong Bands
Martin Luther (1483-1546), translated by Richard Massie (1800-1887)
Christ Jesus lay in death’s strong bands,
For our offenses given;
But now at God’s right hand he stands
And brings us life from heaven;
Therefore let us joyful be
And sing to God right thankfully
Loud songs of hallelujah. Hallelujah!
It was a strange and dreadful strife
When life and death contended;
The victory remained with life,
The reign of death was ended;
Holy Scripture plainly saith
That death is swallowed up by death,
His sting is lost for ever. Hallelujah!
Here the true Paschal Lamb we see,
Whom God so freely gave us;
He died on the accursed tree—
So strong his love!—to save us.
See, his blood doth mark our door;
Faith points to it, death passes o’er,
And Satan cannot harm us. Hallelujah!
So let us keep the festival
Whereto the Lord invites us;
Christ is himself the Joy of all,
The Sun that warms and lights us.
By his grace he doth impart
Eternal sunshine to the heart;
The night of sin is ended. Hallelujah!
Then let us feast this joyful day
On Christ, the Bread of heaven;
The Word of grace hath purged away
The old and evil leaven.
Christ alone our souls will feed,
He is our meat and drink indeed;
Faith lives upon no other. Hallelujah!
Kevin T. Bauder Bio
This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, who serves as Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
William D
Seminary takes a guy out of the context of real life on life ministry, extracts him to a classroom and then puts him back into real ministry like taking a guy out of a battle field, flying him 50,000 feet above the battle for training and then putting him back on the ground.
Surely you are being sarcastic here … There is no conservative seminary in the world that teleports you away from the local church, imprisons you into a classroom, then parachutes you back into local ministry after studies are over. Seminary is academic instruction designed to complement the practical, hands-on discipleship which should be taking place in the local church. Your characterization of Seminary is absolutely incorrect. You are either being sarcastic or are significantly misinformed.
James K
If the church is not training up the faithful men, they think they can ship them off to a school to do it for them. It is cheaper for the church that way I suppose. However, they then get into these disputes about whether a school answers to the churches or if the schools answer to the dollar.
James, I understand what you’re saying. I think many people here are on the same page as you. The church is where the rubber meets the road. The Seminary is where you get academics - the church is where theory becomes reality. If you can’t translate theory into reality in front of real, flesh and blood people, you will have a difficult time in ministry.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I agree, Tyler. That sure wasn’t my experience in Bible college or seminary.
-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Dan Burrell][Kevin T. Bauder]I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.
Kevin
…but it is statements like this that make me glad that I no longer identify with the vast majority of contemporary fundamentalists. There is also a surreal resemblance in Kevin in this post and his replies compared to the article last week involving Ketchum that reminds one of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So very confusing. And absolutely ludicrous.
And disappointing.
And unfortunately, typical.
smh
Maybe you missed this section of his article:
The situation, however, continued to deteriorate. In 2012, a professor was fired for teaching that the opening chapters of Genesis were non-historical. Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.
In response, the board placed the philosophy major under review and indicated its intention to end the program. In October, President Brown tendered his resignation, followed by a key vice president in January 2013—many believed under pressure from the board. In response to concerns that Cedarville might be moving in a fundamentalist direction, board chairman Lorne Sharnberg was quoted as saying that Cedarville “isn’t moving anywhere. We’re staying right where we’ve always been.” Ironically, these are the very words that the Cedarville leadership used to say when it was moving away from fundamentalism.
I think that what Bauder is saying is that he’d rather have his kids in an environment hostile to Christianity (Catholic or secular) than immerse them in some kind of “Jesus light” school where lip service beliefs are practiced in chapel while the professors tear apart the faith under the guise of ‘Christian academia’. It was only last year that Cedarville fired professors for teaching principles contrary to God’s word, so why should I think that things are getting any better?
Personally, I’d MUCH rather have my kids in a school where Christianity is looked at askance than immerse them in “lip service faith”.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[TylerR]Online education is a blessing for folks who are established in life and can’t uproot and go to a brick and mortar school. I’ve been married 10 years, have three kids and a mortgage.
This has been my experience as well. On-line seminary education has been a blessing to both me and my church.
[TylerR] Seminary is not “necessary,” but it is very helpful. I’m a deacon at my church, and we called a Pastor with “only” an MA from a hard-right fundy school to be our Pastor. He is a good man and is studying for his MDiv now. His preaching has gotten better once he started his MDiv. School helps - deny it all you want. He admits his preaching has gotten better. I have never had a Pastor with anything but a BA. They have all been good men who loved the Lord. They would have handled the Word better if they had more education.
At this point, I lean toward seminary being necessary because it is so helpful. A good seminary education will provide a man the tools to better exegete, study, and teach God’s Word. A good seminary education will provide a man the tools to identify, expose, and correct theological error within and without his congregation. I’ve attended churches where the pastor is ill-equipped to do either, and that was reflected in his preaching and in how he dealt with sin / error within the church. Like Tyler said, these pastors were all good men who loved the Lord, but they were not equipped to properly exegete God’s Word, and yes, that includes not knowing the original languages.
As for missionaries, I am thankful that there are men like Dr. David Alan Black (http://www.daveblackonline.com/blog.htm) who are not only top-notch NT Greek scholars but who are also passionate missionaries who spend considerable time and money traveling and teaching believers in third-world countries. May his tribe increase!
As for Cedarville, I have family members who work there and who have decided to keep a low profile during this latest spat. Jay mentioned that Cedarville is paying lip service to Christianity, but there are still many good, godly folks who work there and who don’t. But that being said, I attended a fundamentalist college during my undergrad that I would also describe as paying lip service to Christianity. So, it’s not necessarily doctrinal purity that is the problem.
Larry, that might be true in many cases, but in the countries that are closed to American missionaries, it is often most effective to bring Christian leaders from those countries to the US for schooling so they can return and educate people in their homeland.
There are a lot of ways to do it both in country and out of country, and I am familiar with a number of these closed country types of ministries. That’s one reason I said, “most likely should not come.” There are always various things to be considered, and those leading it should consider a variety of issues.
JVDM… You asked, “Are you saying that Dr. Bauder is confusing, absolutely ludicrous, disappointing and typical because he would rather his kids learned piety instead of impiety? I’m having trouble following what you’re saying.”
My response: No. I only used adjectives, not nouns. I was calling him nothing. I was describing the statement in question. You’ll need to explain to me how a kid will learn “piety” at a state school or Catholic school better than at a Christian school and of course, I’ll need some basis — either empirically or Biblically — that would support your explanation.
Jay…I missed nothing. Read it all. More than once. The fact remains that Kevin’s statement was typically and ludicrously an over-reaction to what is, without question, a concerning series of events. Concerning, yep. Problematic, again, yes. Reason to pull my kids and put them in the hellholes of the statist university systems of this country….you have got to be kidding. And yes, I find such mindless rhetoric disappointing and quite surprising coming from someone of the generally disciplined pen of Kevin Bauder. (Such statements are usually found originating from the likes of firebrands like me.)
There is no evidence that such a move would benefit the student in any way nor is there any that would indicate that staying at a place with the examples in question in place would harm the students. Let’s not do anecdotes, because I can counter-match anyone’s student for student. I find the statement quite ridiculous, not to mention typical of the over-the-top declarations of those that Kevin just castigated the week before.
Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com
Writes this..
“The fact remains that Kevin’s statement was typically and ludicrously an over-reaction to what is, without question, a concerning series of events”
Then writes:
“Reason to pull my kids and put them in the hellholes of the statist university systems of this country”
Doesn’t that overstate the the state university system or understate hell, a bit?
It was only last year that Cedarville fired professors for teaching principles contrary to God’s word, so why should I think that things are getting any better?
Um…because they fired the professor that denied a literal Adam and Eve. That in itself is an improvement because he did not hold to their statement of faith.
Over the years, I’ve learned to be careful how I go about judge Christian institutions of higher learning from a distance because I’ve seen so much window dressing take place. When Cornerstone U was Grand Rapids Baptist in the 1980’s, the rules bred some of the worst rebellion that I ever experienced in my life because so many of my classmates were forced to attend the college by their fundamentalist Baptist parents. Half of the young men that were music majors in my class with me are now practicing homosexuals. The spiritual thermometer was at an all time low when I attended there. Yet when I traveled on gospel music teams to recruit students and connect with churches, they were all given the impression that God was really doing things at Grand Rapids Baptist College and should continue supporting the institution.
When I came back as an adjunct prof teaching urban ministry fifteen years later when it was Cornerstone U, I was blown away by the passion that so many students had for Christ. Christian students actually wanted to attend Cornerstone and many were growing in their faith in Christ. Yet a few years later, I felt that there were some profs that were giving lip service to Cornerstone’s statement of faith and lifestyle statement and it seemed as if they were drifting theologically. It was starting to impact the students as well as many flirted with the emergent church and so many were enamored with Rob Bell. Then when Dr. Stowell became president, due to some decisions that he made, it returned to become more conservative theologically and these professors are now gone. Yet at the same time, they relaxed the rule that its professors were able to drink alcohol in moderation. By the way, I don’t necessarily have a problem with that decision under the current administration. However, I am much more concerned down the road when inevitably someone else becomes president of the Cornerstone who isn’t as much of a spiritual leader as Dr. Stowell.
Barry….as one who spends a lot of time on college campuses of various kinds, I believe the term “hellhole” was wholly accurate.
Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com
[TylerR]Surely you are being sarcastic here … There is no conservative seminary in the world that teleports you away from the local church, imprisons you into a classroom, then parachutes you back into local ministry after studies are over. Seminary is academic instruction designed to complement the practical, hands-on discipleship which should be taking place in the local church. Your characterization of Seminary is absolutely incorrect. You are either being sarcastic or are significantly misinformed.
Hi Tyler,
Ya, I’m being a little sarcastic, but do Seminaries really have a personal mentoring in the midst of local church ministry? Most Seminaries are not local church based.
Speaking for Maranatha - they are not local church based. That being said, any student is accountable to themselves and to God for their faithfulness (or lack thereof) to a local church. Seminary requires attendance in a local church, but short of putting tracking devices on students how can this really be enforced without some degree of mature, personal accountability?
Lousy and uncommitted students go to Seminary, who have little to no relationship with Christ. Great students go to Seminary, who will eventually be used of God for great things.
To put it rather bluntly - Seminary does not exist to babysit students. They should have left diapers and pullups behind their freshman year at Bible college. Seminary gives more advanced academic training in God’s Word to furnish men to handle it better. The extent of involvement in the local church is the student’s responsibility. There is, after all, a heart issue to worship that cannot be legislated or mandated (Deut 10:16; Rom 2:29).
Does a Christian educational institution have to be church-based? I’ll admit I haven’t done too much thinking on this, and I don’t have the time to do so now! My knee-jerk opinion is that neither side of the aisle will guarantee orthodox doctrine. I didn’t care about it at all when I applied to Maranatha. I agreed with their doctrinal statement, they had an excellent reputation in fundamentalist circles, I liked what I saw when I visited campus. My approach here was admittedly very pragmatic, but there you have it. I’m already embedded in a local church. It wasn’t an issue for me. It still isn’t it. Perhaps I’m being naive, but I just don’t care whether an institution is tied to a local church. I care about their doctrine.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Piety apart from faith in Christ is worthless. There is no eternal value in piety for the sake of piety.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
[TylerR]Seminary requires attendance in a local church, but short of putting tracking devices on students how can this really be enforced without some degree of mature, personal accountability?
To put it rather bluntly - Seminary does not exist to babysit students. They should have left diapers and pullups behind their freshman year at Bible college. Seminary gives more advanced academic training in God’s Word to furnish men to handle it better. The extent of involvement in the local church is the student’s responsibility. There is, after all, a heart issue to worship that cannot be legislated or mandated (Deut 10:16; Rom 2:29).
I guess this is where I have a different philosophy from most of “Christendom” type churches. Baby sitting isn’t what I’m talking about. I’m talking about discipleship which is what the church is commissioned to do. All theological training, counseling and plain ol’ Christian growth is to be done within the mission of “disciple-making” as the point. We as Christians were never meant to be left on our own to only be personally responsible and unaccountable for our own spiritual growth and health. A Christian by definition is to be a member of a mutually edifying community(IE The local Church). I know that everyone here would agree with that last sentence, but how seriously does the church take this? When a guy is called to preach and teach, the church ships him off to a Bible College and outsource that part of her discipleship responsibility. Only in the context of local church discipleship and actually leading under the authority of the elders can a man’s profiting be seen and verified by the congregation. We are to lay hands suddenly on no man and thereby partake in his sins. A couple of interviews, seminary transcript and sermon tapes is not enough to know if a man is truly qualified.
Jesus did life with 12 guys and prepared them in three years. Why don’t we do this? Inconvenient? We lust for worldly respectability by having letters attached to our names? We’ve succumbed to the “professionalization” of the ministry thereby falling into the clergy/laity distinction.
[JVDM]Right. That is why I also used adjectives. But I understand what you’re trying to say.
Is one going to learn piety at Cedarville by rocking out to Switchfoot and listening to socialist philosophy lectures? Or at a Catholic school by performing Tallis and reading Josef Pieper?
I’d rather send a young man or woman into a secular university that he already knows up front is hostile to his faith where he/she will have to make it or break it, than send him to a lukewarm, progressive Christian college that will turn him into a spiritually flabby blob.
[WilliamD][JVDM]Right. That is why I also used adjectives. But I understand what you’re trying to say.
Is one going to learn piety at Cedarville by rocking out to Switchfoot and listening to socialist philosophy lectures? Or at a Catholic school by performing Tallis and reading Josef Pieper?
I’d rather send a young man or woman into a secular university that he already knows up front is hostile to his faith where he/she will have to make it or break it, than send him to a lukewarm, progressive Christian college that will turn him into a spiritually flabby blob.
Oddly, having degrees from two fundamentalist colleges, one secular university and while currently on the faculty of a university that I’m confident you’d label “lukewarm/progressive”, I never sought to learn piety at any of them. I did, however, find students who were both “spiritually flabby blob’s” and who were sold out, consecrated Christians. Again, I would note that you make your declarations in the utter absence of any viable empirical evidence. I can play “match the anecdote” all day long with you, should I be so inclined. Frankly, I think one of the most dangerous places to be is enrolled at the most conservative fundamentalist university confident that they will successfully a) teach you Biblical piety; b) protect you from evil influences and c) prepare you for real life ministry in which one engages the actual culture in hand-to-hand spiritual conflict. Such thinking is naive. It is also the thinking that killed whatever little influence fundamentalism (historic or otherwise) ever had in our culture. But go ahead and keep thinking that — it’s far easier than to actually turn on those critical thinking skills and developing one’s own personal piety apart from institutional group think.
I’ve heard that cliched pronouncement about preferring to “send a young man or woman into a secular university….blah, blah” drop from the faces of fundamentalist preachers in order to elicit a hearty amen at the local/regional/national meeting of their “camp” for nearly 50 years. I guess the only thing we need now in this thread is for someone to say, “As goes the music, so goes the…..”.
Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com
WilliamD:
I hear you - I really do. However, I think we’re talking about two different things.
You have a valid concern with 18-yr old boys who want to go to Bible College. They are young and impressionable. Should they be “shipped off” to an institution for four years? Will they even be recognizable when they return? This makes the choice of a Bible College so important - and I believe this explains Dr. Bauder’s comments above which have raised the heckles of some. Is there another way? Is there a better way? It depends on the person. With the continuing march of online education, many more students can get their undergrad finished all while staying in their home church surrounded by friends and the leaders who know them best - supervised discipleship can occur. This may work for some people. It may not work for others. Your concerns are very valid. I share them.
You do not have a valid concern with men who go to Seminary. Yes, there are some 23-yr olds in Seminary who still live at home, or in their dorms, and know nothing about real life. They hopped directly from undergrad to graduate studies and the same concerns I mentioned above apply.
When I mention “Seminary,” my conception of the typical student is a man who is experienced in life or ministry who is returning for additional education. My classmates, by and large, are older men who are mature Christians. They are returning to get a better grasp on things. They are not children. This may help you understand where I’m coming from when I discuss Seminary.
Again, you have valid concerns about the “ship the kid off to school” Bible College models. However, there are undoubtedly some men who call those years the most formative of their lives! It is difficult to draw a line in the sand on this one. I praise the Lord technology has allowed us to have alternatives to traditional brick and mortar schools.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[Dan Burrell]Oddly, having degrees from two fundamentalist colleges, one secular university and while currently on the faculty of a university that I’m confident you’d label “lukewarm/progressive”, I never sought to learn piety at any of them. I did, however, find students who were both “spiritually flabby blob’s” and who were sold out, consecrated Christians. Again, I would note that you make your declarations in the utter absence of any viable empirical evidence. I can play “match the anecdote” all day long with you, should I be so inclined. Frankly, I think one of the most dangerous places to be is enrolled at the most conservative fundamentalist university confident that they will successfully a) teach you Biblical piety; b) protect you from evil influences and c) prepare you for real life ministry in which one engages the actual culture in hand-to-hand spiritual conflict. Such thinking is naive. It is also the thinking that killed whatever little influence fundamentalism (historic or otherwise) ever had in our culture. But go ahead and keep thinking that — it’s far easier than to actually turn on those critical thinking skills and developing one’s own personal piety apart from institutional group think.
Ok, well I think you’re trying way too hard to read my mind or intentions. I don’t know what university faculty you’re a part of (Liberty U? maybe?).
The likes of Ergun Caner and his Arminianism was a bigger problem with Liberty, more than their music. At least he’s gone now.
Ya, all I can do is anecdotal…I knew people who went to Simpson College in Redding, CA. (CMA School) and I visited the place once. It was a Christian party school. I’d rather that my friend had gone to San Jose State than be in a place where the same kind of sinful lifestyles the kids were living, were socially accepted by other “Christian” kids. I’m not a big fan of Bible Colleges anyway if you read my other posts on this thread. I totally agree with the danger of conservative Fundy colleges that make you think that they will successfully do a), b) & c) that you mentioned…. Be careful that you don’t automatically put someone into the stereotype box of the group you don’t particularly like when they say something that sounds slightly different with you. Goodness. I definitely don’t fit in Fundy group-think.
[Dan Burrell]I’ve heard that cliched pronouncement about preferring to “send a young man or woman into a secular university….blah, blah” drop from the faces of fundamentalist preachers in order to elicit a hearty amen at the local/regional/national meeting of their “camp” for nearly 50 years. I guess the only thing we need now in this thread is for someone to say, “As goes the music, so goes the…..”.
I’ve heard that too…I’d say the opposite…”as goes the theology, so goes the music”
[TylerR]When I mention “Seminary,” my conception of the typical student is a man who is experienced in life or ministry who is returning for additional education. My classmates, by and large, are older men who are mature Christians. They are returning to get a better grasp on things. They are not children. This may help you understand where I’m coming from when I discuss Seminary.
Gotcha…that’s a different context altogether. I’ve been reading Tim Chester’s book “Total Church” where he makes some statements that go against conventional wisdom:
“Theology must be in the service of the church and its mission. Authentic theology must be shaped by what we might call a missionary hermeneutic. Theology divorced from this context is essentially barren, self-referential and indulgent. Philemon 6: “I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith, so that you will have a full understanding of every good thing we have in Christ.” P. 156
I’m confused…but then I’m pretty much always confused when I see these kinds of discussions. Thirty years ago I was hearing things about Cedarville that caused me concern. Students told me about how easy it was to break “the rules” and how Robert Ketcham’s practices and position were ridiculed by some of the faculty. Missionaries who were Cedarville grads told me how the music of Cedarville’s mission teams undermined the work they were trying to do on the field. Yet I was informed that it was better to send students to an approved Baptist school like Cedarville than a non-denominational school like BJU.
I’m also confused when a church that practices the Baptist “distinctives” but doesn’t have Baptist in its name is considered unacceptable but a Baptist Church in which the only thing Baptist is their mode of baptism is OK.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[JVDM]Leisure is the basis of culture. School is leisure. Culture is cult. If you expect your schooling to have absolutely no impact on your soul you are kidding yourself.
[JVDM]Leisure is the basis of culture. School is leisure. Culture is cult. If you expect your schooling to have absolutely no impact on your soul you are kidding yourself.
Everything in life — everything, has the potential to impact your soul. How you decide to interpret all of these influences is dependent on your Worldview. Your Worldview is based on your Philosophy. Your Philosophy is based on your definition of Truth. The battle for the Culture is fought when one is determining what they will accept as Truth. Wait until college to disciple that into your children and you are too late — regardless of whether they attend a fundamentalist school or an Ivy League school or anything in between. Parents have for too long relegated the important disciplines of thinking and discernment to churches and schools. Parents who have failed to properly disciple their own children into Truth should not be surprised when they choose to live and think apart from Scripture regardless of where they are going to school. The Apostles were tearing the world apart at the ages of many, if not most, college students. So I view the idea that it is in college when a young adult should set the form of their thinking as illogical and naive. Granted, my own thinking has matured over the years, but it has never moved from its foundation. The ridiculously inept efforts to re-educate me at the extremist and unstable fundamentalist college where I received my undergrad work was no more successful in changing who I was and what I believed than did the respected secular university where I earned my terminal degree. Personal experience is not a valid basis for forming principle however and it is the wise parent, who knows his child adequately so that they guide them into making a sound post-secondary educational choice. Some kids should never go to a BJU or a PCC, others should never go to a Cedarville or an LU and others still would not survive at Duke or Georgia Tech. Wherever one sends their kids or their kids determine to go, the battle for their soul began many years prior to the matriculation line of their freshman year.
Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com
I know this thread has gone far and wide but I wanted to briefly add my view. Thanks for tolerating it!
I was saved in November 1971 … guess where? University of Cincinnati (Junior in college).
Kevin said: “students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians”
I neither learned to be a good Christian nor a poor Christian at U.C. I learned finance and economics. It got me a job.
Hellhole? I’m not advocating the state school. Believe it or not some folk are not privileged and do not have either their own financial resources nor the resources of parents to send them to a private school.
I managed to survive both Physics and Biology in the “hellhole” system.
Re Cedarville .. I knew something about it back then because it was just up the road (70 miles) from where I lived. I knew it for an old rock quarry then called Sportsman Lake. We used to scuba dive there.
[Dan Burrell][JVDM]Leisure is the basis of culture. School is leisure. Culture is cult. If you expect your schooling to have absolutely no impact on your soul you are kidding yourself.
[JVDM]Leisure is the basis of culture. School is leisure. Culture is cult. If you expect your schooling to have absolutely no impact on your soul you are kidding yourself.
Everything in life — everything, has the potential to impact your soul. How you decide to interpret all of these influences is dependent on your Worldview. Your Worldview is based on your Philosophy. Your Philosophy is based on your definition of Truth. The battle for the Culture is fought when one is determining what they will accept as Truth. Wait until college to disciple that into your children and you are too late — regardless of whether they attend a fundamentalist school or an Ivy League school or anything in between. Parents have for too long relegated the important disciplines of thinking and discernment to churches and schools. Parents who have failed to properly disciple their own children into Truth should not be surprised when they choose to live and think apart from Scripture regardless of where they are going to school. The Apostles were tearing the world apart at the ages of many, if not most, college students. So I view the idea that it is in college when a young adult should set the form of their thinking as illogical and naive. Granted, my own thinking has matured over the years, but it has never moved from its foundation. The ridiculously inept efforts to re-educate me at the extremist and unstable fundamentalist college where I received my undergrad work was no more successful in changing who I was and what I believed than did the respected secular university where I earned my terminal degree. Personal experience is not a valid basis for forming principle however and it is the wise parent, who knows his child adequately so that they guide them into making a sound post-secondary educational choice. Some kids should never go to a BJU or a PCC, others should never go to a Cedarville or an LU and others still would not survive at Duke or Georgia Tech. Wherever one sends their kids or their kids determine to go, the battle for their soul began many years prior to the matriculation line of their freshman year.
Yes, Yes, Yes…….
A caveat to what I’m about to say - I think there is a difference (which no on had mentioned) between sending you child away to a state college and having them attend a hometown state college while living at home and remaining in their home church.
That said, we are talking about choosing between heterodox and/or pharisaical “fundamentalists” schools, non-Christian religious schools, and humanistic state schools. I fail to see how any of these fit within the Psalm 1:1-3 paradigm.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
What is so depraved about Cedarville that public universities are what? - shining beacons of morality in comparison? Especially considering taxpayer funded events like Sexual Empowerment Week happen in public universities around the country.
Sure- I’ve seen hand-holding and short shorts and Justin Bieber hair on Cedarville’s campus, and while I oppose all three most vehemently, I’m not sure that those are by default indications of ‘depravity’.
Ditto Bro. Burrell- Parents have for too long relegated the important disciplines of thinking and discernment to churches and schools.
By the time a young person reaches college, that horse is not only out of the corral, it’s roaming freely in Nebraska. Schools and colleges are, IMO, best viewed as a means for teaching and training young people to prepare them for their vocational path, and although the classroom/teacher can impact one’s heart and soul, they aren’t given the primary responsibility, per Scripture, for the nurturing of children in spiritual matters- parents are, with the local church assisting to equip them to that task.
http://www.saylorvillechurch.com/files/pdf/PublicResponsetoFaithsDecisi…
[Moderator Note: We posted this response as a Filing]
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Friends, Acquaintance ……. Brethriem even…….
Hey look there’s a lot of energy on this thread. I’ve been guilty of bringing “gusto” to the discussions here and there.
You guys are working through legit points. I want to bring us all to the united and loving side to the SI camp fire if only to partake in the common cup of cyder - if only for 5 minutes before we go back to throwing marsh-mellows at each other again.
So for most institutions that we are talking about they are “para-church.” What does that mean? Well, without being mean-spirited here - they simply do not have the Biblical charter that:
1. government has
2. the home has
3. the local church has
Now, it’s fine that our institutions be as rightly organized Biblically speaking…..but especially when a learning institution is not under the direct accountability of a local church (such as the case with DBTS, Calvary Seminary, IBC and several others) - or a group of churches via a represented board or association for accountability (such was Pills under the MBA) - when you have an institution that is a power unto itself and really not accountable to a local assembly or even a group of local assemblies - or even a group of leaders whose authority is granted by local assemblies. So that being the case, if a family or a young college student chooses one of those institutions - I’m not sure it’s fair to have any expectations other than you will get whatever good you can get from it……but there will be other “elements” you simply can’t agree with.
Again - this is just me. If one of my sons believed it was right for him to pursue a Christian College education, I would hope he would find a school that if not directly tied to a local assembly would allow him to develop a loyalty and dedication to a congregation. My eldest son is studying engineering here at Arizona State University. He and about 20 other 20 year olds are reaching out to other college students and are making a major impact in our church. What a thrill not to have shipped all of our sharp 20 year olds out of state to “such n such Christian College.” We are happy when they end up at Northland or Clearwater or wherever out of state. But what a thrill to have these guys staying active in our church while they pursue their education. We would also be looking for an institution that believes in the fundamentals of the faith, teaches students how to think, prepares students with a full academic rigor to face the demands of the modern work force and encourage an active walk with God, Uh frankly there are many schools all over the spectrum that fit this modest description. To suggest that a college student must attend a certain Christian College is to show disrespect to the God-ordained institution of the home and the local church…….in my limited opinion.
I think need to assume the best of individuals who attend a Christian or State College or University - that unless they show a propensity to “not get it” (in which case both their home and church failed to some degree in preparation)…..they ought to be able to spit out the fish bones. Look if they have no ability at 18 or 19 to do that - how in the world are they going to handle the necessity of that when they engage a postmodern, anti-Christ workforce at 22 or 23?
Surely we all agree with this?
Ah - temporary peace here around the lovely SI camp fire!
OK - back to throwing cool-aid at each other. Yes to our evangelical friends - of course we fundamentalists like to do this to each other. We can’t help it - it’s in our DNA - we must be militant about everything. Oh brother - there is no doubt we need some type of group therapy!
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
You make far too much sense. You obviously must be silenced, or at the very least accused of compromise somewhere … !
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Don’t take this too seriously, but here is an extreme example of somebody who revels in their ignorance. It is good for a laugh or two!
My favorite line is this, “I’m not a five-point Calvinist, pentagram, line, triangle, or anything … I’m a zero-point Calvinist!”
This is why some kind of education is necessary!!
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[TylerR]This is why some kind of education is necessary!!
I think this sermon tops that…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1SmdPC9v5gk
THoward
I am afraid I have defeated you with this hermeneutical treasure http://youtu.be/RNCoevpt5TE
Pastor Steven Anderson offers his interpretation of 1 Kgs 14:10 (KJV version - you’ll find out why). The verse, for him, defines Biblical manhood. Seriously.
This video took awhile to find, and involved a lot of hard work. I went to YouTube, typed “Steven Anderson insane pastor” and it came up.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[Kevin T. Bauder] All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians. I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.
Wow, how this thread has diverged from what it was intended. Interesting discussion about the purpose and practice of higher education, but not really germane to the discussion that was started. Maybe a part of the overall theological/philosophical approach to education, but it doesn’t address the “seperation” discussion Dr. Bauder started.
Dr. Bauder, I do not know you at all, but have you spent any time on campus at Cedarville? The same arguments were being thrown around about Cedarville in the late 80s and early 90s while I was there. While I only spent two years there, Cedarville challenged me to look at the world, my church, my education through the lens of scripture. Much of that challenged the status quo of my upbringing. My future wife and I had the opportunity to minister in a local church, attend sermons by highly regarded speakers, and see Christ being shared on a daily basis. On the other side, I encountered students who would did not live up to what I can imagine would be your definition of a “good” Christian. However, to intimate that Cedarville struggles to produce good Christians seems (on the surface) to be a hyperbole at best.
Having many in my family attend and/or graduated from FBBC (dad, mom, brother, cousins, uncles, aunts), I am very familiar with that school as well. During my high school years I spent many hours there with friends and family. During that time, I saw students have the ability to minister in local churches, attend sermons by highly regarded speakers as well as Christ being shared. I saw “good” Christians as well as “not good” Christians come from FBBC. I have a very good friend who attended both schools. He finished at Cedarville, and is faithful at Saylorville. What kind of Christian was produced in him? Did his time at Faith trump his time at Cedarville, or vice versa?
To bring it back to the action taken, it is disappointing that FBBC would choose this path over a name. At what point will they then separate from the GARBC due to the GARBC allowing churches in their membership without Baptist in their name? Also, why not grandfather those already there? To force those students and faculty to choose between the two, when it was okay until then and there is no doctrinal change seems rather harsh.
I am respond to Susan R.’s comments. We downplay the role of discipleship, personal teaching/training, and spiritual parenting in our current paradigm of college/university.
Much of the American college model is a waste of time, fun and games, social, redundant Bible teaching for academics and unnecessary repeat of academic subjects.
For example in many countries it only takes 4 total years to get a pharmacy degree or medical degree. Here twice the length of time 8 years. Many of these courses are taken twice once in undergrad and once in med or pharm school. It’s a big money making machine for the educational establishment.
Likewise because the level of spiritual obedience and training is so low in most churches, the standards being simply social, business oriented—build more buildings, and programmatic, most believers are ignorant of the Word growing up and need “academic” discipline or rigor or schooling to learn what Bible they do not know so they are attracted to Bible College and or seminary. The churches can fulfill this position Biblically and eliminate any need for departure to another institution. But they won’t because the pastors are either too busy serving tables and widows or two distracted building temples and budgets to focus on the word, prayer, and training servant leaders to train the congregation to do the work of the ministry.
Discipleship is lacking so the educational machines churn on both secularly and spiritually. If a person needs training to enter a secular profession, college/grad school does play a role, but should be seen as a mission field.
Derek Jung
Fundamental Gospel Baptist Church
San Leandro * Oakland * San Rafael
JT
I agree with your post. If more young people were trained and directed to secular campus’ for the purpose of ministry and missions we would see local baptist churches changed and the Gospel better represented in the world via university outreach.
It’s real not monastic.
Derek Jung
Church Planter
San Leandro * Oakland * San Rafael
California
[Susan R]What is so depraved about Cedarville that public universities are what? - shining beacons of morality in comparison? Especially considering taxpayer funded events like Sexual Empowerment Week happen in public universities around the country.
Sure- I’ve seen hand-holding and short shorts and Justin Bieber hair on Cedarville’s campus, and while I oppose all three most vehemently, I’m not sure that those are by default indications of ‘depravity’.
Ditto Bro. Burrell- Parents have for too long relegated the important disciplines of thinking and discernment to churches and schools.
By the time a young person reaches college, that horse is not only out of the corral, it’s roaming freely in Nebraska. Schools and colleges are, IMO, best viewed as a means for teaching and training young people to prepare them for their vocational path, and although the classroom/teacher can impact one’s heart and soul, they aren’t given the primary responsibility, per Scripture, for the nurturing of children in spiritual matters- parents are, with the local church assisting to equip them to that task.
At UC Berkeley 2/14 they had sexual perversion day, essentially promoting pornography under the guise of sexual diversity. Promotion of the queer agenda is top priority for the newspaper and is approved of by the university.
Local church participation and discipleship is crucial in the face of the moral decay at schools.
DJ
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