Are Some Kinds of Instrumental Music Objectively Better Than Others?
Are some kinds (or styles or genres, etc.) of instrumental music *objectively* (i.e., not just because you prefer them) better than others?
If so, what makes them better and how do you support your view that they are better than others?
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Beyond what I have already presented in this thread, here is an additional treatment of what Scripture explicitly says about Solomon and music that further supports what I have been arguing for in this thread.
Scripture explicitly reveals some information about Solomon and music that could be easily overlooked:
Ecclesiastes 2:8 I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts.
The Spirit here reveals to us that Solomon acquired for himself male and female singers. Given the context of this information in its own verse (his statements in the first part of the verse that he acquired the most precious metals and the distinctive treasure of kings), we understand that these were not just ordinary singers—they were singers who knew how to sing at excelling levels and did so.
In order to rightly assess the fuller significance of this information, we must learn more from Scripture about how Solomon acquired these singers.
Solomon Acquired Singers through All-Excelling Wisdom
Rightly assessing just how good these singers were requires that we give careful attention to what the broader context within the book teaches us about how Solomon acquired these singers:
Ecclesiastes 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. 17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
These passages show that Solomon knew that he had excelled in wisdom above everyone that had been before him in Jerusalem (Eccl. 1:16). His knowing that he had that all-surpassing knowledge makes what he then says even more remarkable—he applied his heart to know wisdom (Eccl. 1:17a)!
When, therefore, we read in Eccl. 2:1-8 of all the areas in which Solomon applied his heart to know wisdom—including his acquiring to himself male and female singers (Eccl. 2:8)—we must hold that Solomon got those singers to himself by giving his heart to know wisdom about singers and singing.
We further know that this interpretation is correct because Solomon explicitly said even earlier in the book that he gave his heart to search out and seek by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven, which, of necessity, therefore, included wisdom concerning singers and their singing:
Ecclesiastes 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
Given that God enlarged Solomon's heart exceedingly and gave him exceedingly much wisdom, understanding, and knowledge (1 Kings 4:29; 2 Chron. 1:12) and given that he applied his heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning everything that is done (Eccl. 1:13), we can be certain that Solomon acquired these singers through the application of all-excelling wisdom, understanding, and knowledge!
Conclusion
Based on this line of biblical reasoning, we learn all the following from the biblical information about Solomon's acquiring singers for himself:
As the richest king ever (cf. 1 Kings 3:13; cf. 10:23), Solomon had the position, power, and wealth to acquire for himself the finest singers possible. As the wisest person ever in the history of the world (except for Jesus of Nazareth), king Solomon had the unparalleled wisdom, understanding, and knowledge to rightly assess who were the finest singers that he could get for himself.
These two considerations coupled with the explicit statement that by way of necessary application shows us that Solomon sought out and acquired these singers by applying his heart to that matter proves that Solomon had to have and did have all-excelling wisdom not just concerning musical lyrics but also concerning the singing of those lyrics and who the people were who could sing them in the best ways possible.
We must also conclude, therefore, that Solomonic Israelite kinds of singing were the best kinds of singing in the world (cf. God's revealing that Solomon's wisdom excelled "all the wisdom of Egypt" (1 Kings 4:30), which necessarily therefore included all Egyptian wisdom about singing and kinds of singing). We thus have biblical basis to hold that through Solomon God gave Israel the best singers, singing, and kinds of singing in all the world.
No, God did not give Solomon all-exceeding wisdom and knowledge about evil things, such as what pleases demons, etc. because doing that would have been contrary to what God has instructed His people in both Testaments about what He wants them to be and do concerning such evil things (Deut. 12; Rom. 16; etc.).
Ah, so you're saying that even though Solomon had all-exceeding knowledge and wisdom, there is something that people in other countries had more knowledge about than what Solomon had.
That false view must not be used to defend Christian disobedience to divine commands that prohibit having any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, such as bringing wicked kinds of occult music into Christian anything.
How does one distinguish a "kind of occult music"? If I'm supposed to stay away from that "kind", then I would need to distinguish it somehow, wouldn't I? Any kind of music can be played during an occult practice, so does the playing of music during an occult practice transfer over some sort of "taint" to whatever kind of music has been used during that practice so that one can't ever use that "kind" again? That would potentially eliminate any kind of music from being used by Christians.
Ecclesiastes 1:16 I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. 17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
These passages show that Solomon knew that he had excelled in wisdom above everyone that had been before him in Jerusalem (Eccl. 1:16). His knowing that he had that all-surpassing knowledge makes what he then says even more remarkable—he applied his heart to know wisdom (Eccl. 1:17a)!
When, therefore, we read in Eccl. 2:1-8 of all the areas in which Solomon applied his heart to know wisdom—including his acquiring to himself male and female singers (Eccl. 2:8)—we must hold that Solomon got those singers to himself by giving his heart to know wisdom about singers and singing.
Ecclesiastes 1:17 tells us that Solomon gave his heart to know madness and folly in addition to wisdom. Do you think God was pleased with Solomon's desire to know madness and folly? Would Solomon's knowledge of madness and folly also have affected the singers and singing that he acquired?
You quoted Ecclesiastes 2:8, in which he gathered men and woman singers, but is the Bible really presenting this as a good thing for him to be doing? The NIV translation of the verse is "I amassed silver and gold for myself, and the treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female singers, and a harem as well—the delights of a man’s heart." I suppose you could affirm that Solomon had the best harem in the world, but is that something Solomon should be praised for?
Ecclesiastes 2:10-11 goes on to say, And whatsoever mine eyes desired I kept not from them, I withheld not my heart from any joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labour: and this was my portion of all my labour. Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.
It seems that the gathering together of the men and women singers was part of the pleasure-seeking that Solomon was rejoicing in, so no matter how good those singers were, the end result was "vanity and vexation of spirit." Should we be using these verses about the gathering together of pleasures as some sort of guide to develop principles for our own musical choices?
Ah, so you're saying that even though Solomon had all-exceeding knowledge and wisdom, there is something that people in other countries had more knowledge about than what Solomon had.
Yes, I am not sure why that seems to be something significant for you to note. What God has prohibited is not something that God would ever have given to anyone.
In addition, all humans, even the wickedest practitioners of the occult, have exceedingly limited capabilities of even understanding how things work in the spirit world.
How does one distinguish a "kind of occult music"? If I'm supposed to stay away from that "kind", then I would need to distinguish it somehow, wouldn't I? Any kind of music can be played during an occult practice, so does the playing of music during an occult practice transfer over some sort of "taint" to whatever kind of music has been used during that practice so that one can't ever use that "kind" again? That would potentially eliminate any kind of music from being used by Christians.
We have had this discussion before and at considerable length without coming to any appreciable agreements. I do not think that I have anything much in the way of new ways of presenting my perspectives in this respect that are going to be helpful to you.
Ecclesiastes 1:17 tells us that Solomon gave his heart to know madness and folly in addition to wisdom. Do you think God was pleased with Solomon's desire to know madness and folly? Would Solomon's knowledge of madness and folly also have affected the singers and singing that he acquired?
I thought that you would bring this up. I do not think that I have studied that area enough to provide a credible answer your first question.
I think that whatever knowledge Solomon acquired of madness and folly equipped him further to wisely reject singing that should be rejected, such as the song of fools (Eccl. 7:5). That added discernment thus helped him in selecting the best singers to acquire for himself.
Scripture explicitly reveals to us that Solomon excelled in making two musical instruments!
In several previous articles, I have treated Scripture concerning various aspects of the surpassing musical wisdom of Solomon. Beyond the evidence that God has given us in Scripture for Solomon's surpassingly excellent wisdom concerning songs and singing, He has even provided us with explicit revelation concerning Solomon's surpassing excellence concerning two musical instruments.
Surpassingly Excellent Harps and Psalteries
Using algum trees supplied to him by Huram, Solomon made harps and psalteries:
2 Chronicles 9:11 And the king made of the algum trees terraces to the house of the LORD, and to the king's palace, and harps and psalteries for singers: and there were none such seen before in the land of Judah.
This revelation is striking for what it says about the harps and psalteries that Solomon made—"there were none such seen before in the land of Judah." The harps and psalteries that Solomon made were the finest that had ever been seen in Judah!
Given that the Israelites had been using these two instruments in divine worship prior to God's giving Solomon the all-excelling wisdom, understanding, and knowledge that He gave him (cf. 1 Chron. 13:8), we thus learn from this explicit biblical statement that these instruments were superior even to the best harps and psalteries that the Israelites had previously been using for the worship of God! Moreover, given that Solomon made these instruments with the wisdom that God gave him that excelled "all the wisdom of Egypt" (1 Kings 4:30), we have certainty that these instruments were superior to any harps and psalteries that the Egyptians had ever had.
Conclusion
Based on what God has explicitly revealed to us about the harps and psalteries that Solomon made, we learn that the all-excelling wisdom, understanding, and knowledge that God gave Solomon included all-excelling wisdom, understanding, and knowledge about these two key musical instruments that God Himself ordained were to be used to worship Him (Ps. 33:2-3; 98:5; 150:3). Through Solomon, God thus gave to the Israelites the finest harps and psalteries in the world so that they would be used in His temple to glorify Him with the finest music in all the world!
This thread has solidified by conviction in this matter.
God and the Biblical writers have shown us that there is no divine preference of musical style or instrumentation.
Musical styles certainly mean things to us - based on nature and nurture, no doubt - and those meanings should be accounted for in the selection of musical styles. But we don't need to worry that God doesn't like any particular style.
God and the Biblical writers have shown us that there is no divine preference of musical style or instrumentation.
Not true. God has given many passages concerning the instruments that He wants to be used in worshiping Him and those passages highlight the use of stringed instruments in divine worship.
Moreover, it is highly significant that the explicit biblical revelation about Solomon's making musical instruments (2 Chron. 9:11) says neither that Solomon made the finest percussion instruments for singers ever seen in Judah nor that Solomon made the finest wind instruments for singers ever seen in Judah--it says that Solomon made the finest string instruments (harps and psalteries) for singers ever seen in Judah, which proves that God does teach us what kind of instruments He preeminently wants His people to use to accompany those who sing to Him in worship.
This is the kind of thing that I am talking about.
highly significant that the explicit biblical revelation … says neither that
You might consider that using words like “highly significant” makes you feel like you are making a point when you’re really just reaching for one.
What you think of as highly significant is something not said in the Word.
You might consider that using words like “highly significant” makes you feel like you are making a point when you’re really just reaching for one.
What you think of as highly significant is something not said in the Word.
2 Chronicles 9:11 And the king made of the algum trees terraces to the house of the LORD, and to the king's palace, and harps and psalteries for singers: and there were none such seen before in the land of Judah.
This is inspired divine revelation. It is perfect wisdom from God in everything that it says. None of it is human opinion or wisdom in any way.
Who is the king mentioned in this verse and what does Scripture say about him that distinguishes him from every other person that has ever lived other than Christ?
Keeping that truth in mind, what is the significance of what this text reveals about what he did concerning the musical instruments that are mentioned in this explicit teaching by the Spirit?
what is the significance of what this text reveals about what he did concerning the musical instruments that are mentioned in this explicit teaching by the Spirit?
Answer: Zip - a - rooo.
Whatever the answer is for best musical instrument, there is equal teaching regarding architecture.
Are you going to be starting threads about God's favorite form of architecture?
Answer: Zip - a - rooo.
"Zip - a - rooo"? Not true.
The text is explicit divine revelation about musical instruments made by the wisest man in the history of the world aside from Christ. The text explicitly teaches us that the instruments that he made were the finest such instruments ever seen in Judah.
The text explicitly reveals to us that Solomon made multiple instruments that were all-excelling stringed instruments of two specific kinds of stringed instruments. By comparison, the Bible never talks of anyone making any kind of percussion instruments, much less the best ones of all.
The text explicitly reveals to us that Solomon did not make those harps and psalteries for merely playing them to make instrumental music for the sake of making only instrumental music--it explicitly specifies that he made them "for singers." That explicit teaching shows us that Solomon had all-excelling wisdom not only about how to make those instruments but also about how to make them so that they would be the finest instruments that would be played specifically to accompany singers.
The text, therefore, explicitly proves that Solomon had all-excelling wisdom about how instrumental music best accompanies singing. There has never been anyone else in the history of the world other than Jesus of Nazareth who had a better understanding of how musical instruments are to be played to produce combinations of musical sounds to accompany singing that glorifies God.
When this text is properly coupled with the other revelation about the all-excelling musical wisdom that Solomon had, we have explicit biblical basis to hold that Solomon had all-excelling wisdom about all important aspects of music that glorified God: songs, kinds of singing, musical instruments to be used for accompanying singers, and the kinds of instrumental music to be played on them. We, therefore, also have certainty that Solomonic Israelite kinds of instrumental music were objectively better than all the kinds of instrumental music of all the world concerning all these aspects of music that glorifies God.
Unquestionably, the Israelites from that time on never ever had any need or justification for using in their worship of God any music of any kind from any peoples that were anywhere in the world (by saying this, I am not saying that they ever did have any such need or justification in the times prior to Solomon).
[Kevin]How does one distinguish a "kind of occult music"? If I'm supposed to stay away from that "kind", then I would need to distinguish it somehow, wouldn't I? Any kind of music can be played during an occult practice, so does the playing of music during an occult practice transfer over some sort of "taint" to whatever kind of music has been used during that practice so that one can't ever use that "kind" again? That would potentially eliminate any kind of music from being used by Christians.
[Rajesh]We have had this discussion before and at considerable length without coming to any appreciable agreements. I do not think that I have anything much in the way of new ways of presenting my perspectives in this respect that are going to be helpful to you.
I figured you would shy away from answering this question, since in our previous discussions, you failed to present a logical perspective on how any element of music could be considered occult.
[Kevin]Ecclesiastes 1:17 tells us that Solomon gave his heart to know madness and folly in addition to wisdom. Do you think God was pleased with Solomon's desire to know madness and folly? Would Solomon's knowledge of madness and folly also have affected the singers and singing that he acquired?
[Rajesh]I thought that you would bring this up. I do not think that I have studied that area enough to provide a credible answer your first question.
Perhaps we need to start listing verses about folly and whether God is pleased with folly.
I think that whatever knowledge Solomon acquired of madness and folly equipped him further to wisely reject singing that should be rejected, such as the song of fools (Eccl. 7:5). That added discernment thus helped him in selecting the best singers to acquire for himself.
Are you saying that God's initial gift of wisdom was not sufficient for Solomon to use to reject singing that should be rejected? Did he need to add knowledge of madness and folly in order to have some "added discernment" that he didn't have from the initial gift?
This example isn't an instance of the word "more" or "most" in a particular verse. Rather, it is a superlative about the Bible. I looked up the authorship of the book of Psalms. David is credited as the author of 75 of the 150 songs in the book of Psalms. That is 50% of the total. Solomon is credited as the author of only two songs in the book of Psalms. That is 1.33% of the total.
It seems highly significant that, in spite of Solomon's excellence in songwriting, only 3 of Solomon's songs (2 in Psalms and then the Song of Solomon) were placed in Scripture, while many more (75) of David's songs were. Perhaps in God's eyes, the words of David's songs were better than the words of Solomon's songs for our spiritual growth and our being thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
I figured you would shy away from answering this question, since in our previous discussions, you failed to present a logical perspective on how any element of music could be considered occult.
That's your opinion. God's categorical prohibitions against the occult trump all human logic. That's all I am going to say concerning this question.
This example isn't an instance of the word "more" or "most" in a particular verse. Rather, it is a superlative about the Bible. I looked up the authorship of the book of Psalms. David is credited as the author of 75 of the 150 songs in the book of Psalms. That is 50% of the total. Solomon is credited as the author of only two songs in the book of Psalms. That is 1.33% of the total.
It seems highly significant that, in spite of Solomon's excellence in songwriting, only 3 of Solomon's songs (2 in Psalms and then the Song of Solomon) were placed in Scripture, while many more (75) of David's songs were. Perhaps in God's eyes, the words of David's songs were better than the words of Solomon's songs for our spiritual growth and our being thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The Spirit is the ultimate Author of everything in Scripture. All of David's Psalms are the words not just of David but also of the Spirit. All of the words of however many Psalms are from Solomon (many of the Psalms do not provide information about the author so it is very possible that Solomon wrote many more than 2 of them) and of Song of Solomon were also the words of the Spirit.
In addition, Scripture explicitly says that Solomon excelled in wisdom above all that were before him, which of necessity means that Solomon surpassed even David in his musical wisdom.
Are you saying that God's initial gift of wisdom was not sufficient for Solomon to use to reject singing that should be rejected? Did he need to add knowledge of madness and folly in order to have some "added discernment" that he didn't have from the initial gift?
The wisdom that God gave Solomon was not just some kind of "zapping" with a static, fixed amount of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. The all-excelling wisdom that God gave him included assessing information that had not previously been known or encountered by him and rightly discerning what was good versus what was evil.
It also included devising new solutions to problems or situations that were encountered such that those solutions were not directly given to him by God. It also included rightly applying knowledge and understanding that he had only in principial form to realms about which he did not previously have any explicit or direct knowledge either of his own or that was directly given to him by God.
As Solomon grew in his knowledge and understanding, he would have increased in his abilities to discern correctly what was good versus what was evil.
All true believers must accept anything that God says when He says it explicitly.
James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
This revelation from God teaches us that there is wisdom that is not His that is earthly, sensual, and demonic.
If we do anything with wisdom that is not from God, that thing that we do will be and is done with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom.
Doing anything, therefore, that pertains to instrumental music with *wisdom that is not from God* produces instrumental music that is earthly, sensual, and demonic.
Such instrumental music, of necessity, is not pleasing or acceptable to God.
To say that it is not possible to do anything pertaining to instrumental music with wisdom that is not from God must be proven from Scripture--it cannot and must not be merely asserted, assumed, or presupposed.
Is there any proof from Scripture itself that it is not possible to do anything pertaining to instrumental music with wisdom that is not from God?
Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
This passage teaches us that believers are to approve things that are excellent. In our corporate worship, the kinds of instrumental music we play to God are, therefore, to be excellent in His sight.
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