Are Some Kinds of Instrumental Music Objectively Better Than Others?
Are some kinds (or styles or genres, etc.) of instrumental music *objectively* (i.e., not just because you prefer them) better than others?
If so, what makes them better and how do you support your view that they are better than others?
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Reason #1: The category of excellence in 1 Kings 4 is wisdom, not beauty. Wisdom is about thought and meaning, propositional content, not artistry.
No, the Hebrew word for wisdom in 1 Kings 4 is not a word that is merely "about thought and meaning, propositional content." Biblical usage of that word shows that it is used for wisdom from God "all manner of workmanship" for things that did not have to do with propositional content:
God filled Bezaleel with the Spirit of God in wisdom and understanding and knowledge in all manner of workmanship for things that were not directly to do with propositional content:
Exodus 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Exodus 35:35 Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.
Women in wisdom spun goats' hair:
Exodus 35:26 And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' hair.
Passages about Solomon show the same things, as when the Queen of Sheba extolled the wisdom that God gave to Solomon for things that did not have to do with propositional content:
1 Kings 10:4 And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the house that he had built, 5 And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her.
Psalm 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
God made all His works in wisdom. It is not true that the wisdom of God only applies to things and matters of propositional content, etc.
God made all living beings in His perfect wisdom, yet God Himself teaches us that humans are better than the other living beings that He made.
Believing that God made everything about the non-lyrical aspects of music does not require that we believe that all the combinations of those aspects are all objectively equal. Those who hold that all the combinations of non-lyrical aspects of music that make up all the kinds of music are objectively equal must prove from Scripture that is true.
Furthermore, the Hebrew word for wisdom in Psalm 104:24 is the same word that is in 1 Kings 4 for the all-excelling wisdom that God gave Solomon. There is no biblical basis to hold that God gave Solomon all-excelling wisdom only for the lyrical aspects of his 1005 songs.
Those who hold that all the combinations of non-lyrical aspects of music that make up all the kinds of music are objectively equal must prove from Scripture that is true.
It seems that burden of proof is a recurring issue in discussions with you.
I'm content with “not proven.” So I am not going to accept a burden of proof here. It’s enough for me that the 1Kings passage doesn’t specify. Could be every aspect; could be lyrics. We don’t know.
I'm content with “not proven.” So I am not going to accept a burden of proof here. It’s enough for me that the 1Kings passage doesn’t specify. Could be every aspect; could be lyrics. We don’t know.
Hmm. Do you accept that Solomon's songs were the greatest songs in the world, or do you hold that is "not proven"?
Yes, in some respect.
And at that time. Greater songs could have followed.
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EDIT: Actually, you could be making more out of the songs than the passage intended. The passage says Solomon was super-wise. And in support of that was that he wrote a TON of proverbs and a LOT of songs. Therefore, the impressive part could have been the quantity. If he wrote 1,005 songs, most of which were as good as a lot of the songs people sing, that would be very impressive. He had a lot to say!
Yes, in some respect.
And at that time. Greater songs could have followed.
No, this is not correct. God specifically said that He made Solomon superior to all who were before him and that there would not be anyone else like him after him:
1 Kings 3:12 Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.
Solomon's all-excelling wisdom, understanding, and largeness of heart that God gave him far surpassed what any other human has ever had other than Jesus of Nazareth.
EDIT: Actually, you could be making more out of the songs than the passage intended. The passage says Solomon was super-wise. And in support of that was that he wrote a TON of proverbs and a LOT of songs. Therefore, the impressive part could have been the quantity. If he wrote 1,005 songs, most of which were as good as a lot of the songs people sing, that would be very impressive. He had a lot to say!
I was wondering when someone would try to go this route with what that passage says. This understanding is not tenable because God specifically compared him to all other wise men from all the earth. That understanding would require that those to whom God compared him were also songwriters but just not as prolific as Solomon, etc.
Moreover, Scripture records several ways that the all-excelling wisdom that God gave Solomon enabled him to do or make surpassingly great things that do not have to do with the magnitude, quantities, or numbers of what was done or made.
For example, in 1 Kings 4 itself, God does not quantify Solomon's speaking about trees and animals, as He would have had the point merely been about the greater volume (in the sense of amount) of things that he spoke about those subjects.
Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
When Christ sought to challenge people about His supremacy, He declared that He was greater than Solomon in wisdom. It is instructive that Christ chose Solomon for this comparison and not anyone else who lived between Solomon and him.
In keeping with what God said in 1 Kings 3:12, Christ's doing that confirms to us that there was not anybody after Solomon who was wiser than him until Christ came along.
I am not moved by what you have said to change my understanding of 1 Kings.
However...
Let's assume that the instrumental portion of the songs Solomon wrote are objectively better than other music in all respects. Best in style, best in selection of instrument, best tuning of those instruments, best performance, (I don't know enough about music to adequately complete this list).
Question 1: Are we called to emulate Solomon's style in our music?
Question 2: All those who preceded Solomon worshipped with inferior music. Was that ok?
Question 3: Do we know what style Solomon used? Can we emulate it if we want to?
Let's assume that the instrumental portion of the songs Solomon wrote are objectively better than other music in all respects. Best in style, best in selection of instrument, best tuning of those instruments, best performance, (I don't know enough about music to adequately complete this list).
Question 1: Are we called to emulate Solomon's style in our music?
Question 2: All those who preceded Solomon worshipped with inferior music. Was that ok?
Question 3: Do we know what style Solomon used? Can we emulate it if we want to?
1. We are called to make the Bible preeminent in all our understanding about music. Whatever it does reveal about Solomon's music is intended to profit us (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
2. Yes, holding that Solomon's worship music was better than the worship music of all those who preceded him is ok.
Consider that God Himself has given His people today a New Covenant that is better than the Old Covenant that God Himself gave His people of old. The New Covenant is based on better promises than the Old Covenant--even though the same God made all of those promises!
In the same way, holding that God enabled His people in Solomon's day to worship Him with better music than His people did before then is not inherently problematic.
Consider also that heavenly worship music is perfect music that is far superior to any worship music on the earth, even to the best of Solomon's music. That our best worship music of today is inferior in that regard to the perfect worship music of heaven is ok.
3. We do not know very many specifics about what style or styles of singing and instrumental music were used by Solomon and those whom he instructed in such things. We do, however, know in Scripture all that we need to know about them to please God in our day with acceptable music for corporate worship.
There are many ways that what Scripture does reveal about worship in the Solomonic Temple applies to our worship today and instructs us about it. Such things, however, are not what this thread is about.
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Psalm 135:3 Praise the LORD; for the LORD is good: sing praises unto his name; for it is pleasant. 4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure. 5 For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
Christians who hold that Israel's music was no better than, equal to, or even inferior to the music of other nations do not yet understand rightly the extreme importance to God of His people offering to Him excelling worship music that is acceptable to Him.
The only nation in the history of the world that God chose and made His peculiar treasure above all other nations certainly should have had and did have the finest music in the world because that showed the glory of its God above all gods.
Just to sum up:
- The 1 Kings passage means that in some way the songs Solomon wrote support the assertion that he was wise. But that doesn't mean every aspect of those songs was perfect or best-ever.
- (I acknowledge that Rajesh believes that it must be best-ever in every respect.)
- I don't see any attempt in Scripture to command or encourage the use of Solomon's songs in worship. Except, several of his songs are preserved in the Psalms and in The Song of Songs. If the background music was such a treasure, why was it forgotten?
I don't believe any Biblical commendation of music is explicitly directed at the instrumental portion as ethically best.
Just to sum up:
- The 1 Kings passage means that in some way the songs Solomon wrote support the assertion that he was wise. But that doesn't mean every aspect of those songs was perfect or best-ever.
- (I acknowledge that Rajesh believes that it must be best-ever in every respect.)
- I don't see any attempt in Scripture to command or encourage the use of Solomon's songs in worship. Except, several of his songs are preserved in the Psalms and in The Song of Songs. If the background music was such a treasure, why was it forgotten?
I don't believe any Biblical commendation of music is explicitly directed at the instrumental portion as ethically best.
I appreciate your ongoing interaction.
As of yet, you have not interacted with the broader theological considerations that I have set forth (for example, the divine intent that Israel would be ascendant over all nations). Solomon's all-excelling songs cannot be rightly assessed for their full excellence apart from accounting for such considerations.
Beyond those considerations, there are several more passages from Scripture that support my positions that I have not yet presented in this thread, especially concerning Israel's kinds of instrumental music.
Song of Solomon 1:1 The song of songs, which is Solomon's.
Using a Hebrew construction that indicates a superlative ("the song of songs"), the Spirit infallibly, inerrantly, and indisputably teaches us at the very beginning of Song of Solomon that it is the greatest song of Solomon's, who was the wisest man in the history of the world other than Jesus of Nazareth. In addition, Song of Solomon is the only song in all of human history that was inspired to be its own book of the Bible (and not just part of a book of the Bible)!
Not only was Song of Solomon, therefore, greater than all the other 1004 songs of Solomon, but it was (and is) greater than every other song of any human being in the history of the world.
Even if the unmatched greatness of Song of Solomon were only true of its lyrics, we still would thereby learn that we can know with all certainty that the lyrics of songs objectively differ among one another such that one song is objectively better than all the others!
Furthermore, any claim that any human after Solomon has written any lyrics that are better than those of Song of Solomon is a false claim because the all-surpassing greatness of Song of Solomon has been revealed by divine inspiration. To claim that any lyrics of any subsequent songs have been superior to Song of Solomon, one would have to have divine revelation that explicitly says that those lyrics are superior to Song of Solomon.
Consider that God Himself has given His people today a New Covenant that is better than the Old Covenant that God Himself gave His people of old. The New Covenant is based on better promises than the Old Covenant--even though the same God made all of those promises!
In the same way, holding that God enabled His people in Solomon's day to worship Him with better music than His people did before then is not inherently problematic.
Since Solomon was living under the old Covenant, and we today live under the New, better covenant, wouldn't it stand to reason that everything we have under this new covenant is better than the old? Wouldn't even the music we worship with today under the new better covenant be better than any music used during the old, inferior covenant?
Since Solomon was living under the old Covenant, and we today live under the New, better covenant, wouldn't it stand to reason that everything we have under this new covenant is better than the old? Wouldn't even the music we worship with today under the new better covenant be better than any music used during the old, inferior covenant?
No, there is no biblical or theological basis to make the claim that everything we have under the NC is better than the OC. The better promises of the NC are specified in Scripture and do not have any such universal aspect to them so as to render all our music better than theirs.
Nothing in the Bible concerning the NC even remotely suggests that anyone today has been given the all-surpassing divine wisdom, etc. that Solomon was given and that enabled him to excel all others.
It's somewhat amazing to me that you even tried to make this kind of argument as a possibility, given how insistent you have been on having explicit biblical statements for anything that I have said earlier.
No, there is no biblical or theological basis to make the claim that everything we have under the NC is better than the OC. The better promises of the NC are specified in Scripture and do not have any such universal aspect to them so as to render all our music better than theirs.
And Solomon's excelling wisdom did not have such a universal aspect to it to render everything that Solomon did to be better than everyone else. He had access to better wisdom due to that wisdom being given to him, but we know from the statements of Solomon's sinfulness that he didn't always use his wisdom in every aspect of everything he did.
It's somewhat amazing to me that you even tried to make this kind of argument as a possibility, given how insistent you have been on having explicit biblical statements for anything that I have said earlier.
Oh, I made the statement knowing full well it deserved rejection, but I wanted to see the wording you would use to reject it. I think our position in the New Covenant puts us "in Christ" (who was wiser than Solomon) and being in Christ influences our ability to produce that which pleases God, but you are correct that there isn't a "universal aspect" to it. The Bible also doesn't explicitly state that Solomon's excelling wisdom had a universal aspect affecting everything he produced.
God filled Bezaleel with the Spirit of God in wisdom and understanding and knowledge in all manner of workmanship for things that were not directly to do with propositional content:
Exodus 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
I don't think this example refutes Dan's statement that "Wisdom is about thought and meaning, propositional content, not artistry." God gave Bezaleel a filling of the Holy Spirit for four specific things- for wisdom, for understanding, for knowledge, and for all manner of workmanship. Verses 4 and 5 then describe the specifics of the workmanship. The wisdom could very well have to do with propositional content while the workmanship was an entirely separate gift.
I don't think this example refutes Dan's statement that "Wisdom is about thought and meaning, propositional content, not artistry." God gave Bezaleel a filling of the Holy Spirit for four specific things- for wisdom, for understanding, for knowledge, and for all manner of workmanship. Verses 4 and 5 then describe the specifics of the workmanship. The wisdom could very well have to do with propositional content while the workmanship was an entirely separate gift.
I am not going to take the time to answer this directly from the passages about Bezaleel.
Instead, I will repeat what I showed earlier that categorically refutes that position:
Psalm 104:24 categorically refutes the notion that wisdom is only about propositional content, etc. because it declares that God made all His manifold works in wisdom. It does not say that He made the non-propositional things that He made with craftmanship instead of wisdom.
Also, in an earlier comment, I provide explicit biblical evidence that proves that wisdom does not have to do only with propositional content:
Women in wisdom spun goats' hair:
Exodus 35:26 And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' hair.
Passages about Solomon show the same things, as when the Queen of Sheba extolled the wisdom that God gave to Solomon for things that did not have to do with propositional content:
1 Kings 10:4 And when the queen of Sheba had seen all Solomon's wisdom, and the house that he had built, 5 And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her.
One of the more remarkable passages that stress that God's wisdom is not just for propositional content, etc. concerns the exceeding wisdom of certain subhuman creatures that God has made in His perfect wisdom:
Proverbs 30:24 There be four things which are little upon the earth, but they are exceeding wise: 25 The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer; 26 The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks; 27 The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands; 28 The spider taketh hold with her hands, and is in kings' palaces.
WTT Proverbs 30:24 אַרְבָּ֣עָה הֵ֭ם קְטַנֵּי־אָ֑רֶץ וְ֜הֵ֗מָּה חֲכָמִ֥ים מְחֻכָּמִֽים׃
The footnote to this verse in the NET Bible brings out the force of the Hebrew construction in this verse:
tn The construction uses the Pual participle with the plural adjective as an intensive; these four creatures are the very embodiment of wisdom (BDB 314 s.v. חָכַם Pu(.
According to Scripture, these four subhuman creatures surpassingly embody wisdom, which wisdom, of course, displays that the perfections of the wisdom of God certainly include excelling wisdom concerning non-propositional aspects of His creation.
I posted the following treatment of Scripture on my blog today that conclusively answers the question that I set forth for discussion in my opening post of this thread:
Solomon’s Excelling Musical Wisdom
Conclusion
I posted the following tonight on my blog:
To appreciate rightly the supremacy of the musical wisdom that Solomon was given, we need to account for his excelling musical background.
1. Solomon was the son of king David who was a prophet (Acts 2:30) who was an extraordinarily skilled harpist who had the Spirit on him (1 Sam. 16).
Solomon undoubtedly had extensive exposure to David's excelling playing of instrumental music. Moreover, Solomon very likely had considerable exposure to other supernaturally gifted instrumentalists as well (cf. 1 Chron. 6:31-32; 9:33; 1 Chron. 15-16).
Through hearing and observing such supernaturally skillful instrumental music being played, Solomon was thus given vast knowledge and understanding of excelling kinds of instrumental music even before God gave to him surpassingly great wisdom, understanding, and knowledge so that he surpassed even David in those areas (cf. 1 Kings 3:12; 2 Chron. 1:12).
2. Solomon was the son of "the sweet psalmist of Israel" (2 Sam. 23:1) who gave to Israel around 75 perfect songs through divine inspiration. No other human being had ever had such excelling supernatural skillfulness in producing such songs in all human history prior to David.
Even before God gave to Solomon surpassingly great wisdom, understanding, and knowledge so that he surpassed even David in those areas (cf. 1 Kings 3:12; 2 Chron. 1:12), Solomon therefore almost certainly had had direct exposure to all of those perfect songs from God. What's more Solomon did not just have such exposure to the lyrics of those perfect songs, he would have had considerable opportunity to hear his father and other supernaturally skilled singers (cf. 1 Chron. 6:31-32; 9:33; 1 Chron. 15-16) sing those songs before God made him (Solomon) a surpassingly excellent producer of songs himself.These two considerations about Solomon's background, therefore, should greatly heighten our appreciation and acceptance of the reality of Solomon's all-surpassing musical wisdom, understanding, and knowledge concerning songs, singing, musical instruments, and playing instrumental music.
3. We do not know very many specifics about what style or styles of singing and instrumental music were used by Solomon and those whom he instructed in such things. We do, however, know in Scripture all that we need to know about them to please God in our day with acceptable music for corporate worship.
You are correct that we don't know the specifics of the styles of singing or instrumental music that Solomon used. Since we don't have record from God of those specifics, then can we really apply any knowledge of Solomon's music to our discussions of music today? We can know his music was "better," but if we don't know specifics of it, then how can we know what was making it better in order to apply those standards to our music today?
You stated that we can still "please God" today with our "acceptable" music, so are you saying that the "pleasure of God" is what makes our music today acceptable, or do we need to find the standard that makes music "acceptable" in order for it to be "pleasing to God?" Do we need to study specifics of Solomon's music, which we don't have record of, in order to know what is acceptable to God in music for corporate worship? Our music can still be "acceptable" to God even if it doesn't match the level of some other standard that Solomon has reached, right?
When you used the words "corporate worship" in this point, were you being specific with those words in order to point out that there are some different standards that need to be understood when we talk about "corporate worship that is acceptable to God" that we wouldn't have to follow in our personal listening habits.
You are correct that we don't know the specifics of the styles of singing or instrumental music that Solomon used. Since we don't have record from God of those specifics, then can we really apply any knowledge of Solomon's music to our discussions of music today? We can know his music was "better," but if we don't know specifics of it, then how can we know what was making it better in order to apply those standards to our music today?
There are quite a few things that we do know about Solomonic Israelite kinds of music that we must rightly apply to our doctrine and practice of music.
Before that can be done, much wrong theology and doctrine about music that has led to wrong musical practices must be corrected and changed.
The Bible teaches that there are only two kinds of wisdom:
- Wisdom that is from God that is from above.
- Wisdom that is fleshly, of this world, earthly, sensual, and demonic.
The false notion that all wisdom concerning non-lyrical, non-propositional aspects of music is inherently and only God's wisdom has to be rejected.
It is not true that all wisdom about kinds of singing and kinds of instrumental music is God's wisdom.
Heeding all that Scripture reveals about God's wisdom versus man's wisdom in the realm of music is what we need most of all.
When you used the words "corporate worship" in this point, were you being specific with those words in order to point out that there are some different standards that need to be understood when we talk about "corporate worship that is acceptable to God" that we wouldn't have to follow in our personal listening habits.
No. The Bible has much, much more about corporate worship in the realm of music than it does about individual worship or ordinary living. It thereby stresses the surpassing importance of corporate worship.
My perspectives and discussions about music reflect these biblical realities.
You stated that we can still "please God" today with our "acceptable" music, so are you saying that the "pleasure of God" is what makes our music today acceptable, or do we need to find the standard that makes music "acceptable" in order for it to be "pleasing to God?"
We need to find what pleases God musically, and we must do so by profiting fully from what He has revealed about music, including His standards as He has revealed them.
Do we need to study specifics of Solomon's music, which we don't have record of, in order to know what is acceptable to God in music for corporate worship? Our music can still be "acceptable" to God even if it doesn't match the level of some other standard that Solomon has reached, right?
We need to study the specifics of whatever Scripture has revealed about Solomon's music and all other music that was acceptable to Him. Our music is not acceptable to God if we disregard anything that He has revealed in His Word and instead go with our own ideas that do not accord with what He has said.
God could have revealed His favorite music. He could have said, "That. What you just sang(played), Solomon, is the best. That's what I want."
And Solomon, in his wisdom, could have invented a method of written musical description, forever recording the method of reproducing God's favorite music."
Really not that hard. Sorry, but there's just no escaping that neither God nor Solomon bothered to record it.
God could have revealed His favorite music. He could have said, "That. What you just sang(played), Solomon, is the best. That's what I want."
And Solomon, in his wisdom, could have invented a method of written musical description, forever recording the method of reproducing God's favorite music."
Really not that hard. Sorry, but there's just no escaping that neither God nor Solomon bothered to record it.
You are absolutely right that God and Solomon could have done those things, respectively. God's perfect wisdom has deemed that neither of those things has been done.
Just so it's clear, my position has never been that there has to be only one kind of instrumental music or only one kind of singing that is acceptable to God for use in corporate worship. Saying that does not mean that we have to hold that all kinds of instrumental music and all kinds of singing are all equally good and all are acceptable to God for use in corporate worship.
What God has said to us about the sufficiency of Scripture guarantees to us that we have everything in Scripture that we need to please Him with corporate worship music that is acceptable to Him in our day. We must pray fervently and study His Word intensely and comprehensively so that we learn all that He wants us to know about what kind(s) of instrumental music and singing are acceptable to Him for use in corporate worship today and what kinds of them are not acceptable to Him.
This post from my blog treats an all-important consideration that profoundly reinforces everything that I have previously presented in this thread concerning the importance of the supremacy of the musical wisdom that God gave to Solomon.
To fully understand and accept the all-excelling musical supremacy of the wisdom that God gave Solomon, we must rightly appreciate and accept the importance of Solomon’s all-excelling calling to build a house for the name of the Lord. The following nine passages reveal these truths to us:
2 Sam. 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
1 Chron. 22:5 And David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be builded for the LORD must be exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries: I will therefore now make preparation for it. So David prepared abundantly before his death.
1 Chron. 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. 10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
1 Chron. 29:1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
1 Chron. 29:25 And the LORD magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him such royal majesty as had not been on any king before him in Israel.
2 Chron. 1:1 And Solomon the son of David was strengthened in his kingdom, and the LORD his God was with him, and magnified him exceedingly.
2 Chron. 2:1 And Solomon determined to build an house for the name of the LORD, and an house for his kingdom.
2 Chron. 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel. 5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
2 Chron. 2:9 Even to prepare me timber in abundance: for the house which I am about to build shall be wonderful great.
These passages profoundly and abundantly set forth the matchless glory of the Solomonic temple. Unlike any other physical structure ever built by any other peoples in the history of the world, this house was a house for the name of the LORD (2 Chron. 2:1).
This house had to be and was of unmatched greatness because it was “not for man, but for the LORD God” (1 Chron. 29:1) who was and is great “above all gods” (2 Chron. 2:5). This house was “wonderful great” (2 Chron. 2:9). It had to be and was “exceeding magnifical, of fame and of glory throughout all countries” (1 Chron. 22:5).
The combined force of all these inspired statements shows that there has never been another physical structure in the history of the world that has even remotely compared to the greatness of the Solomonic temple. Keeping that truth in mind and accounting for the divinely ordained immense importance of music in the Solomonic temple (for example, 2 Chron. 5:11-14), we must accept and recognize that God gave Solomon the all-excelling musical wisdom, understanding, and knowledge that He did because the music of that temple had to be the greatest music ever in the history of the world for the sake of the glory of the one and only living and true God!
We need to study the specifics of whatever Scripture has revealed about Solomon's music and all other music that was acceptable to Him.
Say a believer only has access to the New Testament, and they are not aware of any specifics about Solomon's music. Can that believer still produce music that is acceptable to God? That was my question. Are they out of luck if they don't know about Solomon's music?
Our music is not acceptable to God if we disregard anything that He has revealed in His Word and instead go with our own ideas that do not accord with what He has said.
This sentence doesn't really answer the question you were responding to. I didn't say anything at all about going with "our own ideas," so I'm not sure why you were bringing that into the answer. I asked if our music has to reach the level of Solomon's music in order to be acceptable to God. I thought it would be an easy answer for you to say, "No, we don't have to be as good as Solomon." Instead, you tell me that we can't disregard anything God has revealed in His Word. Are you thus saying that God's Word reveals that our music really must somehow be as good as Solomon's to be acceptable to God? Maybe my question was so obvious that you thought I was trying to trap you in some way, but we've been spending so much time talking about Solomon's all-excellingness that I wanted to get down to brass tacks about what we non-Solomon people are capable of producing.
we must accept and recognize that God gave Solomon the all-excelling musical wisdom, understanding, and knowledge that He did because the music of that temple had to be the greatest music ever in the history of the world for the sake of the glory of the one and only living and true God!
Considering that Solomon began to worship false gods at the end of his life, would his "all-excelling musical wisdom, understanding, and knowledge" cause his musical worship of false gods to be the greatest music ever in the history of the world for the purpose of worshipping false gods? If he was all-excelling in one direction, wouldn't he also be all-excelling in the other?
Considering that Solomon began to worship false gods at the end of his life, would his "all-excelling musical wisdom, understanding, and knowledge" cause his musical worship of false gods to be the greatest music ever in the history of the world for the purpose of worshipping false gods? If he was all-excelling in one direction, wouldn't he also be all-excelling in the other?
This is baselsess speculation. There is zero biblical evidence that Solomon ever engaged in any musical worship of false gods.
Anything that he himself may have done that was in and of itself idolatrous was not done with the wisdom of God. It was done with wisdom that was fleshly, of this world, earthly, sensual, and demonic.
What's more, if and when Solomon did enter the "turfs" of the false worshipers of false gods, he would have had to submit to their wisdom about their worship of their gods. I do not find any evidence in the Bible that false worshipers were willing to let Solomon late in his life change any aspects of their false worship.
Say a believer only has access to the New Testament, and they are not aware of any specifics about Solomon's music. Can that believer still produce music that is acceptable to God? That was my question. Are they out of luck if they don't know about Solomon's music?
Any believers who have the NT automatically know that they must use the Psalms musically to teach and admonish one another. The widespread Christian disobedience to or disregard of direct divine revelation about the use of Psalms in corporate worship has contributed greatly to the lack of biblical understanding concerning music.
Furthermore, when I speak about Solomon's music and its specifics, I am speaking about specifics concerning broad principles and not so much about the kinds of musicological specifics that are of such great interest to many.
Believers who only have the NT and disregard the profound information given in the NT about or pertaining to music may very likely end up with music that is unacceptable to God. On the other hand, if they happen to be in a setting where acceptable music is already being used, they may still be using acceptable music in spite of their lack of knowledge of what Scripture profoundly reveals about music in the OT.
This sentence doesn't really answer the question you were responding to. I didn't say anything at all about going with "our own ideas," so I'm not sure why you were bringing that into the answer. I asked if our music has to reach the level of Solomon's music in order to be acceptable to God. I thought it would be an easy answer for you to say, "No, we don't have to be as good as Solomon." Instead, you tell me that we can't disregard anything God has revealed in His Word. Are you thus saying that God's Word reveals that our music really must somehow be as good as Solomon's to be acceptable to God? Maybe my question was so obvious that you thought I was trying to trap you in some way, but we've been spending so much time talking about Solomon's all-excellingness that I wanted to get down to brass tacks about what we non-Solomon people are capable of producing.
Your understanding of the "goodness" of Solomon's music appears to be limited to or largely concerning the degrees of certain various aspects of its excellence? The all-excelling musical wisdom of Solomon, however, was not only about such degrees of excellence having to do with the musicological specifics of how to produce such music, etc.
In addition to all-excelling knowledge about music in that regard, Solomonic Israelite music was the best music in the history of the world because it also profoundly and categorically rejected the wicked kinds of music and kinds of singing that pervaded all the surrounding nations, especially all their occult kinds of music.
This is baseless speculation. There is zero biblical evidence that Solomon ever engaged in any musical worship of false gods.
I agree it is speculation, but I would hardly call it baseless. Solomon was a very musical person, wasn't he? Do you think he somehow stopped being a musical person once he started worshipping the false gods?
Anything that he himself may have done that was in and of itself idolatrous was not done with the wisdom of God. It was done with wisdom that was fleshly, of this world, earthly, sensual, and demonic.
But he never stopped having the wisdom of God, did he? His wisdom wasn't just from God, but his wisdom was about God and about spiritual matters. He had all-exceeding wisdom of what pleased God, but that meant he also had all-exceeding knowledge of what displeased God. He had all-exceeding knowledge of demonic elements to keep out of temple worship music, but he also had all-exceeding knowledge of what would please a demon who is pretending to be a god. He had an exceeding number of wives and concubines from various cultures and false worship traditions, so his knowledge of false worship practices exceeded that of any other individual alive at the time.
In addition to all-excelling knowledge about music in that regard, Solomonic Israelite music was the best music in the history of the world because it also profoundly and categorically rejected the wicked kinds of music and kinds of singing that pervaded all the surrounding nations, especially all their occult kinds of music.
Well, yes, it was at one time, but did it continue to be that? What practical application can we derive from the knowledge that a certain music was, at one time, the best in the world, if we don't have record of what exactly that music consisted of or what the music of surrounding nations was like.
What God has said to us about the sufficiency of Scripture guarantees to us that we have everything in Scripture that we need to please Him with corporate worship music that is acceptable to Him in our day. [I'm with you so far.] We must pray fervently and study His Word intensely and comprehensively so that we learn all that He wants us to know about what kind(s) of instrumental music and singing are acceptable to Him for use in corporate worship today and what kinds of them are not acceptable to Him.
I'm just going to shorten that last part:
We must pray fervently and study His Word intensely and comprehensively so that we learn all that He wants us to know about what kind(s) of _____________________________ are acceptable to Him...
You could put anything in that blank. (hair length) (fingernail length) (clothes fit) (clothes style) (vocal accent).
And if we say, "God didn't tell us about the best fingernail length." You're going to list 20 verses that talk about excellence and wisdom And while none mention fingernails, well, Solomon HAD fingernails, right? And Solomon was wise in every way, that includes his fingernails!"
I'm sorry, but no. If x,y, or z instrumental music style was used in connection with wise songs, it does not follow that I need to pray fervently and study comprehensively to discover what kind of instrumental music is best.
God did not say.
I do not care about instrumental style because God didn't care enough to tell us . And no, I'm not going to pray fervently about it. I would feel guilty if I did. I would believe that God would be listening to me with sadness and [in the rest of His Word] telling me, "Stop it! There are a great many things I want you to be praying fervently about! I asked you to pray about those things! Not this. Stop!"
But he never stopped having the wisdom of God, did he? His wisdom wasn't just from God, but his wisdom was about God and about spiritual matters. He had all-exceeding wisdom of what pleased God, but that meant he also had all-exceeding knowledge of what displeased God. He had all-exceeding knowledge of demonic elements to keep out of temple worship music, but he also had all-exceeding knowledge of what would please a demon who is pretending to be a god. He had an exceeding number of wives and concubines from various cultures and false worship traditions, so his knowledge of false worship practices exceeded that of any other individual alive at the time.
No, God did not give Solomon all-exceeding wisdom and knowledge about evil things, such as what pleases demons, etc. because doing that would have been contrary to what God has instructed His people in both Testaments about what He wants them to be and do concerning such evil things (Deut. 12; Rom. 16; etc.).
Well, yes, it was at one time, but did it continue to be that? What practical application can we derive from the knowledge that a certain music was, at one time, the best in the world, if we don't have record of what exactly that music consisted of or what the music of surrounding nations was like.
It absolutely continued to be all-excelling above all the kinds of instrumental music of the world, which kinds of music were all made with fleshly, earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom of this world.
One all-important practical application that we must take away from knowing that Solomonic Israelite kinds of instrumental music were superior to all the kinds of music of the rest of the world is that the view that all kinds of instrumental music are equally good is categorically false. That false view must not be used to defend Christian disobedience to divine commands that prohibit having any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, such as bringing wicked kinds of occult music into Christian anything.
I'm just going to shorten that last part:
We must pray fervently and study His Word intensely and comprehensively so that we learn all that He wants us to know about what kind(s) of _____________________________ are acceptable to Him...
You could put anything in that blank. (hair length) (fingernail length) (clothes fit) (clothes style) (vocal accent).
And if we say, "God didn't tell us about the best fingernail length." You're going to list 20 verses that talk about excellence and wisdom And while none mention fingernails, well, Solomon HAD fingernails, right? And Solomon was wise in every way, that includes his fingernails!"
I'm sorry, but no. If x,y, or z instrumental music style was used in connection with wise songs, it does not follow that I need to pray fervently and study comprehensively to discover what kind of instrumental music is best.
God did not say.
I do not care about instrumental style because God didn't care enough to tell us . And no, I'm not going to pray fervently about it. I would feel guilty if I did. I would believe that God would be listening to me with sadness and [in the rest of His Word] telling me, "Stop it! There are a great many things I want you to be praying fervently about! I asked you to pray about those things! Not this. Stop!"
This line of reasoning is patently wrong and unbiblical. God has explicitly commanded the whole world to use instrumental music that pleases Him in corporate worship that is acceptable to Him. Because doing so is not optional, we must seek wisdom from God about what does and does not please Him.
Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Taking the view that all kinds of instrumental music are pleasing to God and acceptable to Him for use in corporate worship has zero biblical support and is refuted by many key biblical considerations, including all the evidence that I have presented in this thread that shows that it is false to say that all kinds of instrumental music are equally good.
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