Are Some Kinds of Instrumental Music Objectively Better Than Others?
Are some kinds (or styles or genres, etc.) of instrumental music *objectively* (i.e., not just because you prefer them) better than others?
If so, what makes them better and how do you support your view that they are better than others?
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I said much more than just this in that comment. You chose not to respond to that comment in the full context of what I said.
I don't always cut and paste every sentence in order to respond individually to every sentence. I saw the rest of the rest of the post as just expanding upon the first paragraph of the post, so I didn't see the reasoning behind cutting and pasting the full post.
These sentences are essential for properly understanding the significance of what you did comment on. Do you agree or disagree with them?
Why would you even think I might disagree with them? The two factors in which the Bible says that Solomon exceeded everyone is in riches and wisdom. So of course, Solomon had more wisdom than anyone else. The Bible specifically tells us so, so I would be foolish to disagree. The Bible also tells us that God gave Solomon the wisdom, so I would agree that his wisdom was divine wisdom which is superior to any human wisdom.
If you are asking me to consider that getting perfect wisdom made Solomon perfect in every characteristic of his life, then I certainly couldn't agree with that. You're not claiming that Solomon became a totally perfect person, are you? That would contradict so many verses about humanity in the Bible.
I found another comparison verse that pertains to equality. Since we've been talking about Solomon, who was given wisdom from God, I decided to look at a different individual, Samson, who was given an extraordinary attribute from God. Look at Judges 16:17:
That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.
If Samson's hair was shaved, he was going to "be like any other man." In order to fully understand this verse, we need to understand the factor (the characteristic) of Samson that would be affected by the cutting of his hair. It wasn't his wisdom or his riches or his leadership ability or even his musical talent. The only characteristic being spoken of in this verse is Samson's strength. We can't make any assessments of whether any other characteristics of Samson were better, worse, or equal to other people based on his strength becoming "like any other man."
I found another comparison verse that pertains to equality. Since we've been talking about Solomon, who was given wisdom from God, I decided to look at a different individual, Samson, who was given an extraordinary attribute from God. Look at Judges 16:17:
That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.
If Samson's hair was shaved, he was going to "be like any other man." In order to fully understand this verse, we need to understand the factor (the characteristic) of Samson that would be affected by the cutting of his hair. It wasn't his wisdom or his riches or his leadership ability or even his musical talent. The only characteristic being spoken of in this verse is Samson's strength. We can't make any assessments of whether any other characteristics of Samson were better, worse, or equal to other people based on his strength becoming "like any other man.
I appreciate very much your willingness to continue interacting with me directly from the Bible itself in this thread! I wish that more SI users would be willing to do so.
About this specific comparison, here are points for you to consider:
1. It's true that in this passage, the comparison is limited in scope, but that is explicit in the text and the attribute itself is narrow in scope.
2. When Samson said that he would become "like any other man," he did not mean that he believed that all other men were of equal strength--such a belief would have been patently false, easily disproven, and certainly known by Samson to be false. What he meant was that he would lose his supernatural strength and only have strength at a level that he would have as an ordinary man would have.
3. Most importantly, we must distinguish between what Scripture records under inspiration about what people themselves have said versus what the inspired writer himself says. Samson's statement is an accurate record of what he said, but that inspired record does not guarantee the truthfulness of what he said.
In this case, what Samson said was true, but in other cases, what is recorded about what people have said was not.
When the Scripture writer, however, under inspiration records what God Himself said or the Scripture writer himself says something under inspiration, what has been said is guaranteed to be true, valid, etc.
Why would you even think I might disagree with them? The two factors in which the Bible says that Solomon exceeded everyone is in riches and wisdom. So of course, Solomon had more wisdom than anyone else. The Bible specifically tells us so, so I would be foolish to disagree. The Bible also tells us that God gave Solomon the wisdom, so I would agree that his wisdom was divine wisdom which is superior to any human wisdom.
If you are asking me to consider that getting perfect wisdom made Solomon perfect in every characteristic of his life, then I certainly couldn't agree with that. You're not claiming that Solomon became a totally perfect person, are you? That would contradict so many verses about humanity in the Bible.
No, of course, I do not hold that Solomon was made perfect in every single aspect in his life. More later . . .
1. It's true that in this passage, the comparison is limited in scope, but that is explicit in the text and the attribute itself is narrow in scope.
The giving of riches and wisdom is also explicit in the texts about Solomon, and I'm not sure how riches and wisdom are any less "narrow in scope" than strength. What do you mean by "narrow in scope"? If you are saying that wisdom would have influenced other characteristics of Solomon, then I would agree with that, but I also would see that happening with the gift of supernatural strength. For example, both the gift of wisdom and the gift of strength would have affected the individual's leadership abilities in some ways. The ways would have been different for each person since the gifts were different, but those effects would still have been within the "narrow scope" of either wisdom or strength.
Also, I think Judges 16:20 gives us an indication of a greater scope to Samson's gift than just strength. That verse says, And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the Lord was departed from him. So Samson experienced the Lord's presence in some way while he had supernatural strength and he lost that presence when his hair was cut.
2. When Samson said that he would become "like any other man," he did not mean that he believed that all other men were of equal strength--such a belief would have been patently false, easily disproven, and certainly known by Samson to be false. What he meant was that he would lose his supernatural strength and only have strength at a level that he would have as an ordinary man would have.
This comment is one of those rather obvious comments, but it is good to be reminded not to get too extreme in our assessments. If someone were to say that God's gift of strength to Samson had made Samson omnipotent, that would be an extreme statement and a rather silly one. It would also be an extreme silliness to think that becoming "like any other man" meant that all men had exactly the same level of strength or that Samson received the exact average of all other strength levels present in man. I can't say I've ever hear anyone claim those things. His strength became, as you put it, "at a level that he would have as an ordinary man would have."
3. Most importantly, we must distinguish between what Scripture records under inspiration about what people themselves have said versus what the inspired writer himself says. Samson's statement is an accurate record of what he said, but that inspired record does not guarantee the truthfulness of what he said.
In this case, what Samson said was true, but in other cases, what is recorded about what people have said was not.
This is true, and it made me think of one of the verses you posted earlier using the word "better." In 1 kings 21:2, Ahab offered Naboth a "better vineyard." Was Ahab telling the truth? Even if the was telling the truth, would it be better simply in Ahab's eyes or in Naboth's eyes, or would it be a better vineyard in God's eyes?
The giving of riches and wisdom is also explicit in the texts about Solomon, and I'm not sure how riches and wisdom are any less "narrow in scope" than strength. What do you mean by "narrow in scope"? If you are saying that wisdom would have influenced other characteristics of Solomon, then I would agree with that, but I also would see that happening with the gift of supernatural strength. For example, both the gift of wisdom and the gift of strength would have affected the individual's leadership abilities in some ways. The ways would have been different for each person since the gifts were different, but those effects would still have been within the "narrow scope" of either wisdom or strength.
1 Kings 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore. 30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
This passage shows us that God gave Solomon not just unsurpassed wisdom, but also unsurpassed understanding and largeness of heart. In addition, Scripture explicitly extols Solomon's wisdom, etc. as surpassing that of all others so that it brought him international fame.
By contrast, Scripture does not explicitly extol Samson's strength as surpassing all others. That it did can likely be legitimately inferred from the deeds that were recorded, but God did not make it explicit.
Moreover, Scripture extols the supremacy of wisdom over all other attributes in several different ways. Scripture also explicitly relates many specific areas in which Solomon's God-given wisdom caused him to excel exceedingly.
Finally, Solomon's wisdom was entirely incapable of being matched by any collection of other wise men regardless of how many would work together, but the ultimate outcomes of Samson's feats of strength could have been replicated by other groups of men working together.
This is true, and it made me think of one of the verses you posted earlier using the word "better." In 1 kings 21:2, Ahab offered Naboth a "better vineyard." Was Ahab telling the truth? Even if the was telling the truth, would it be better simply in Ahab's eyes or in Naboth's eyes, or would it be a better vineyard in God's eyes?
As the passage reads, there is no basis to doubt that Ahab had in mind other vineyards that he regarded as better than Naboth's. We are unable to know in that specific instance whether Naboth or God regarded them as such or not.
Two passages in Scripture make clear that God in fact does regard certain vineyards as excelling others; the first one does by implication, and the second does so by direct statement.
Exod. 22:5 If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.
1 Sam. 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
By contrast, Scripture does not explicitly extol Samson's strength as surpassing all others. That it did can likely be legitimately inferred from the deeds that were recorded, but God did not make it explicit.
I think this comment is just splitting hairs. Sure, the Bible doesn't use the word "surpassing" in reference to Samson's strength, but the record of his deeds is explicit enough that I don't think we have to just "infer" that Samson's strength surpassed that of any other human being. That being said, my point in bringing up Samson was not to emphasize his super strength, but my point was specifically about the "equality" part of the verse, in which losing his strength made him "like any other man."
Moreover, Scripture extols the supremacy of wisdom over all other attributes in several different ways.
I highly doubt that Samson and Solomon would have ever argued over which of them had the "supreme" attribute given to them by God. Each of them was given the gift that was best for them at the time that that gift was needed. We shouldn't think of God's gifts in some sort of "competitive" way. Even though Paul does say in 1 Cor 12:31, "But covet earnestly the best gifts," he says that after describing the gifts of God in verse 11 as, "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." God gives each person what is best for them.
Two passages in Scripture make clear that God in fact does regard certain vineyards as excelling others; the first one does by implication, and the second does so by direct statement.
Exod. 22:5 If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.1 Sam. 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
And I'll just point out that for each of those verses the "best vineyards" are determined by some particular attributes that those vineyards had. They weren't determined to be "best" by a random process, in some eenie meenie miney mo sort of way. We don't have the particular factors listed in the verses, but it's not all that hard to logically deduce some of the possible factors that might make one vineyard better than another.
And I'll just point out that for each of those verses the "best vineyards" are determined by some particular attributes that those vineyards had. They weren't determined to be "best" by a random process, in some eenie meenie miney mo sort of way. We don't have the particular factors listed in the verses, but it's not all that hard to logically deduce some of the possible factors that might make one vineyard better than another.
So what? Whether they can be correctly, logically deduced or not is irrelevant to the fact that Scripture inerrantly reveals that some vineyards were in fact better than others.
Anyone who would try to say that one esteems one vineyard above another, but another person esteems them all alike so let every man be persuaded in his own mind would be wrong if he were to say that they are all equal. God does not esteem them all to be alike, He does not hold that they are all equal, and His views are the only ones that matter.
I highly doubt that Samson and Solomon would have ever argued over which of them had the "supreme" attribute given to them by God. Each of them was given the gift that was best for them at the time that that gift was needed. We shouldn't think of God's gifts in some sort of "competitive" way. Even though Paul does say in 1 Cor 12:31, "But covet earnestly the best gifts," he says that after describing the gifts of God in verse 11 as, "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." God gives each person what is best for them.
Submitting to explicit divine revelation is essential. God says that there are spiritual gifts that are "best" and that we are to desire them more than those that are not. Accepting that inerrant revelation is not tantamount to thinking inappropriately "of God's gifts in some sort of 'competitive way.'"
Holding that God gives each person what gift(s) is/are best for them is irrelevant to the necessary recognition that some spiritual gifts objectively either were or are better than others or both.
Prov. 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Prov. 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Prov. 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Scripture teaches that there isn't anything that we may desire that is comparable to godly wisdom. We rightly hold, therefore, that having supernatural wisdom far surpasses having even supernatural strength.
So what? Whether they can be correctly, logically deduced or not is irrelevant to the fact that Scripture inerrantly reveals that some vineyards were in fact better than others.
I'm surprised you say "So what" to a reasonable, legitimate point about discussions regarding comparisons, that "factors" are inherently present in a determination of something being "better."
I should have just done the same thing to you. Earlier you wrote, "Moreover, Scripture extols the supremacy of wisdom over all other attributes in several different ways. Scripture also explicitly relates many specific areas in which Solomon's God-given wisdom caused him to excel exceedingly." I should have just responded, "So what. What difference does it make that there are 'several different ways' or 'many specific areas.' Those 'ways' and 'areas' are just 'factors' that aren't applicable in a comparison conversation." I didn't say that to you because I do think that a discussion of factors is a valid part of a discussion about comparisons. You yourself are fine with using factors when you want to make a point of your own, but then you call factors irrelevant when I simply say that they exist.
Anyone who would try to say that one esteems one vineyard above another, but another person esteems them all alike so let every man be persuaded in his own mind would be wrong if he were to say that they are all equal. God does not esteem them all to be alike, He does not hold that they are all equal, and His views are the only ones that matter.
You don't have to try making up some hypothetical person who says "all vineyards are alike" in order to contradict them. Nobody is saying that. I'm just saying that there are factors involved in a discussion of a "better" vineyard, and I'll even go so far as to say that such a discussion would be useful. After all, Jesus uses the grapevine as an illustration of spiritual life. John 15:5 says, "I am the vine, ye are the branches." He goes on in that verse to describe a "factor" involved in a vineyard comparison, that of fruitfulness. "He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit." There is a gold mine of applicational principles in a discussion of what makes a vineyard better.
I'm surprised you say "So what" to a reasonable, legitimate point about discussions regarding comparisons, that "factors" are inherently present in a determination of something being "better."
I should have just done the same thing to you. Earlier you wrote, "Moreover, Scripture extols the supremacy of wisdom over all other attributes in several different ways. Scripture also explicitly relates many specific areas in which Solomon's God-given wisdom caused him to excel exceedingly." I should have just responded, "So what. What difference does it make that there are 'several different ways' or 'many specific areas.' Those 'ways' and 'areas' are just 'factors' that aren't applicable in a comparison conversation." I didn't say that to you because I do think that a discussion of factors is a valid part of a discussion about comparisons. You yourself are fine with using factors when you want to make a point of your own, but then you call factors irrelevant when I simply say that they exist.
There is a key difference that you seem to have overlooked: I pointed attention to how Scripture itself does not just make comparisons that wisdom is superior to other things; it also provides other information explicitly concerning those comparisons.
When Scripture itself provides information about so-called "factors," that is a different matter than when it does not.
More importantly, from much past experience, I believe that the incessant push for discussing "factors" instead of looking at the bigger aspects of biblical comparisons thoroughly is a grave misstep and one that has cost many people much important biblical understanding about many subjects, especially music.
There is a key difference that you seem to have overlooked: I pointed attention to how Scripture itself does not just make comparisons that wisdom is superior to other things; it also provides other information explicitly concerning those comparisons.
And this is a big difference between our conversations about wisdom and any future conversations we might have about kinds of instrumental music. At least Scripture tells us that wisdom is superior. We simply don't have that information from Scripture about kinds of instrumental music.
When Scripture itself provides information about so-called "factors," that is a different matter than when it does not.
More importantly, from much past experience, I believe that the incessant push for discussing "factors" instead of looking at the bigger aspects of biblical comparisons thoroughly is a grave misstep and one that has cost many people much important biblical understanding about many subjects, especially music.
Well, of course it's going to be hard for you to talk about "factors" when having a discussion about instrumental music. The Bible doesn't even say that some kinds of instrumental music are better than others, and if it doesn't do that, then it's certainly not going to be presenting any "factors" that could be considered in a discussion of whether some kinds of instrumental music are better than other. The "grave misstep" is actually insisting that the Bible teaches that some kinds of instrumental music are better than others when the Bible neither explicitly says so nor provides any factors by which to judge the issue. It could be true, and it most likely is true, but it can't be proven from the Bible to be true.
It actually is rather fun to search for comparisons in the Bible.
In the book of Esther, when Queen Vashti didn't appear before the king, this was the royal commandment that went out concerning her. "That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she." Esther 1:19
This is the king's reaction to Esther from Esther 2:17, " And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; so that he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen instead of Vashti."
The "grave misstep" is actually insisting that the Bible teaches that some kinds of instrumental music are better than others when the Bible neither explicitly says so nor provides any factors by which to judge the issue. It could be true, and it most likely is true, but it can't be proven from the Bible to be true.
Time will tell. In the meantime, let me call attention again to the poll in this thread that currently shows that 3 people have voted that they believe that there are no kinds of instrumental music that are objectively better than others. It's too bad that they are not interested in setting forth the bases for that belief.
Holding that view legitimately requires biblical evidence to prove it, and I am fully confident that there is no such evidence.
It actually is rather fun to search for comparisons in the Bible.
In the book of Esther, when Queen Vashti didn't appear before the king, this was the royal commandment that went out concerning her. "That Vashti come no more before king Ahasuerus; and let the king give her royal estate unto another that is better than she." Esther 1:19
This is the king's reaction to Esther from Esther 2:17, " And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; so that he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen instead of Vashti."
Concerning Esther, there is another comparison as well in Scripture:
Est. 2:9 And the maiden pleased him, and she obtained kindness of him; and he speedily gave her her things for purification, with such things as belonged to her, and seven maidens, which were meet to be given her, out of the king's house: and he preferred her and her maids unto the best place of the house of the women.
I have been considering for some time a very important set of biblical comparisons that I (you did mention the first one earlier) have not yet presented in the thread:
1 Cor. 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Heb. 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb. 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb. 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb. 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb. 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb. 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Heb. 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
These statements have profound implications for this discussion; I am not sure that this is the right time to present them, but maybe it is.
Strikingly, the very man to whom God gave wisdom that excelled all other men spoke explicitly in Scripture about wisdom versus strength:
Ecclesiastes 9:14 There was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it: 15 Now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man. 16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.
Scripture explicitly compares the two and declares the supremacy of wisdom over strength!
16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.
Scripture explicitly compares the two and declares the supremacy of wisdom over strength!
Good catch, but then there is also Eccl. 7:19, "Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city." If you've got wisdom, then you also have strength, so in that sense, one's strength is proportional to one's wisdom.
Daniel 1:12-15
12 “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. 13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see.” 14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.
15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food.
Daniel 1:19-20
19 The king talked with them, and he found none equal to Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah; so they entered the king’s service. 20 In every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom.
19 The king talked with them, and he found none equal to Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah; so they entered the king’s service. 20 In every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom.
I was just studying that passage in the last hour and noting its profound relevance to this discussion!
We know directly from Scripture that Solomon's throne excelled all other thrones of all other kings in the earth. Sound reasoning based on that divine revelation teaches us additional truth that is of even greater importance, as follows.
We do not have any basis to hold that God specifically or directly commanded Solomon to make his (Solomon's) throne or that He specifically or directly gave him any revelation about anything concerning that throne.
Solomon's throne was not an object of worship, and it was not connected with acceptable divine worship in any way, yet God gave Solomon the unsurpassed riches and wisdom with which he made his all-surpassing throne.
Given the all-surpassing importance that God Himself places on acceptable worship of Him, can there be any legitimately denying, therefore, that God did much more for Solomon concerning all things that did have to do directly with acceptable divine worship than He did for Solomon to make his throne?
Given the all-surpassing importance that God Himself places on acceptable worship of Him, can there be any legitimately denying, therefore, that God did much more for Solomon concerning all things that did have to do directly with acceptable divine worship than He did for Solomon to make his throne?
Based on the lack of information that we have in the inspired record, I don't think anyone can legitimately deny OR legitimately affirm it.
We have a description in the Bible of Solomon's throne and the statement that no other throne was like it, but we also have a description of Solomon's marriages and concubines. I'm sure no other king had the exceeding number of female relationships Solomon had. Does the fact of Solomon's exceeding wisdom mean that everything he built and every action he took was an outgrowth of his exceeding wisdom?
Based on the lack of information that we have in the inspired record, I don't think anyone can legitimately deny OR legitimately affirm it.
We have a description in the Bible of Solomon's throne and the statement that no other throne was like it, but we also have a description of Solomon's marriages and concubines. I'm sure no other king had the exceeding number of female relationships Solomon had. Does the fact of Solomon's exceeding wisdom mean that everything he built and every action he took was an outgrowth of his exceeding wisdom?
Your response seems to show that you missed the point entirely that I was making in my comments. Maybe you can go back and reread what I wrote . . .
Your response seems to show that you missed the point entirely that I was making in my comments. Maybe you can go back and reread what I wrote .
Oh, I did read what you wrote, and my comment did deal with your point, and my question that you didn't answer was also applicable to your point. You were dealing with acceptable divine worship in your point, right? You seemed to be comparing the wisdom Solomon had about divine worship with the wisdom he would have had to build his throne, and that the divine worship wisdom was much more than the throne wisdom. You even italicized the much more part. Am I right so far?
Oh, I did read what you wrote, and my comment did deal with your point, and my question that you didn't answer was also applicable to your point. You were dealing with acceptable divine worship in your point, right? You seemed to be comparing the wisdom Solomon had about divine worship with the wisdom he would have had to build his throne, and that the divine worship wisdom was much more than the throne wisdom. You even italicized the much more part. Am I right so far?
You missed a crucial point--God did not command Solomon to make the throne, and He did not give him any direct revelation (as far as we know) about making a throne or how to make the throne, etc.
Arguing from the lesser (making a throne) to the vastly greater (things pertaining directly to acceptable worship), if the non-specific, non-explicit wisdom that God gave Solomon yet enabled him to make an all-excelling throne, how much more so would Solomon have made and done all-excelling things in the realm of worship in aspects for which we are not told that God gave him any specific, direct, or explicit wisdom.
Your response about there not being anything in Scripture about wisdom given to him about worship so we cannot legitimately deny or affirm, etc. missed this key point.
You missed a crucial point--God did not command Solomon to make the throne, and He did not give him any direct revelation (as far as we know) about making a throne or how to make the throne, etc.
Arguing from the lesser (making a throne) to the vastly greater (things pertaining directly to acceptable worship), if the non-specific, non-explicit wisdom that God gave Solomon yet enabled him to make an all-excelling throne, how much more so would Solomon have made and done all-excelling things in the realm of worship in aspects for which we are not told that God gave him any specific, direct, or explicit wisdom.
Your response about there not being anything in Scripture about wisdom given to him about worship so we cannot legitimately deny or affirm, etc. missed this key point.
And you seemed to have missed my point about Solomon's wives and concubines. Yes, we do have direct evidence about what Solomon did with his throne even though we don't have direct evidence of the throne wisdom given. But we also have direct evidence of what Solomon did regarding worship even though we don't have evidence of the worship wisdom given. 1 Kings 11:1-8 tells us that Solomon's wives and concubines led him into FALSE worship in spite of whatever wisdom he may have been given.
But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites— 2 from the nations of whom the Lord had said to the children of Israel, “You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. 4 For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not [a]loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom[b] the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. 7 Then Solomon built a [c]high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8 And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
So which wisdom showed itself more effectively and completely in Solomon's life? The throne building wisdom seems to have done so. That doesn't mean he was given more throne wisdom, but we also don't see indication that he was given more acceptable worship wisdom due to his actions of false worship. We simply can't affirm or deny either one.
And you seemed to have missed my point about Solomon's wives and concubines. Yes, we do have direct evidence about what Solomon did with his throne even though we don't have direct evidence of the throne wisdom given. But we also have direct evidence of what Solomon did regarding worship even though we don't have evidence of the worship wisdom given. 1 Kings 11:1-8 tells us that Solomon's wives and concubines led him into FALSE worship in spite of whatever wisdom he may have been given.
But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites— 2 from the nations of whom the Lord had said to the children of Israel, “You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. 4 For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not [a]loyal to the Lord his God, as was the heart of his father David. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom[b] the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. 7 Then Solomon built a [c]high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8 And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
So which wisdom showed itself more fully in Solomon's life? The throne building wisdom seems to have done so. That doesn't mean he was given more throne wisdom, but we also don't see indication that he was given more acceptable worship wisdom due to his actions of false worship. We simply can't affirm or deny either one.
Ah, so you apparently had in mind much more than what you actually said in your initial remarks about his wives, etc. that did not say anything about their leading him into false worship.
I took your initial statements to refer only to Solomon's taking more wives and concubines than anyone else, which in and of itself had nothing to do with wisdom concerning worship.
Your point, however, has to do with Solomon's being led astray into false worship by those wives and concubines. That still does not support your position. I will explain why in later comments.
I took your initial statements to refer only to Solomon's taking more wives and concubines than anyone else, which in and of itself had nothing to do with wisdom concerning worship.
I wouldn't say that it had nothing to do with worship. Since the Lord had commanded the Israelites not to intermarry with other nations, Solomon's disobedience to that command indicated a lack of a proper worship attitude toward God. Disobedience is inconsistent with worship, and Solomon's number of wives and concubines indicated an exceeding amount of disobedience. The Lord revealed that foreign wives would turn the people's hearts away from God, so Solomon's exceeding number of foreign wives turned his heart exceedingly from God.
I wouldn't say that it had nothing to do with worship. Since the Lord had commanded the Israelites not to intermarry with other nations, Solomon's disobedience to that command indicated a lack of a proper worship attitude toward God. Disobedience is inconsistent with worship, and Solomon's number of wives and concubines indicated an exceeding amount of disobedience. The Lord revealed that foreign wives would turn the people's hearts away from God, so Solomon's exceeding number of foreign wives turned his heart exceedingly from God.
The Spirit explicitly tells us that this reality was true of him late in his life when he was old:
1 Kings 11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites; 2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. 3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart. 4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
His wives did not turn his heart away after other gods until he was old. Scripture, therefore, makes clear that this consideration is not at all relevant concerning what he did with the all-excelling wisdom that God have him early in his life.
We can be certain that God gave him that surpassing wisdom foremost so that he exceedingly facilitated acceptable worship of God that excelled all the other people anywhere in the world.
Scripture, therefore, makes clear that this consideration is not at all relevant concerning what he did with the all-excelling wisdom that God have him early in his life.
We can be certain that God gave him that surpassing wisdom foremost so that he exceedingly facilitated acceptable worship of God that excelled all the other people anywhere in the world.
Well, you didn't specify a timeframe in that you would only consider early-life wisdom to be relevant in a discussion about Solomon. It sounds like you are only introducing that element in order to detract from Solomon's failure to use his wisdom later in life.
To me, it would be far better in God's eyes to be rejecting God early in life and then turn to God in old age than to follow God in one's younger years, but then turn away to false gods later. Solomon's exceedingly unacceptable worship in his later years caused 10 tribes to be split off and taken away from his son.
Well, you didn't specify a timeframe in that you would only consider early-life wisdom to be relevant in a discussion about Solomon. It sounds like you are only introducing that element in order to detract from Solomon's failure to use his wisdom later in life.
To me, it would be far better in God's eyes to be rejecting God early in life and then turn to God in old age than to follow God in one's younger years, but then turn away to false gods later. Solomon's exceedingly unacceptable worship in his later years caused 10 tribes to be split off and taken away from his son.
No, I am not downplaying at all the seriousness and heinousness of his sinfulness late in his life. That terrible reality about him, however, is not at all relevant to the key specific point that is under discussion at this time in this thread.
There is no Bible evidence to deny the legitimacy and truthfulness of the argument that I am making about the surpassing supremacy of Solomon's God-given wisdom concerning acceptable worship of God. That point has all-important ramifications for this discussion.
There is no Bible evidence to deny the legitimacy and truthfulness of the argument that I am making about the surpassing supremacy of Solomon's God-given wisdom concerning acceptable worship of God. That point has all-important ramifications for this discussion.
Isn't it true that there was surpassing supremacy in ALL God's wisdom that He gave to Solomon? I can't understand why you are trying to make a point that some surpassingly supreme wisdom is more surpassingly supreme than other surpassingly supreme wisdom. Scripture doesn't tell us that, so why are you trying to insist upon that?
The Bible gives us some superlatives about Saul in 1 Samuel 9:2.
And he had a choice and handsome son whose name was Saul. There was not a more handsome person than he among the children of Israel. From his shoulders upward he was taller than any of the people.
Even though Saul was handsomer and taller than other Israelites, he felt his family line made him less worthy than other Israelites. When Samuel told him that the desire of all Israel was on him and on his father's house, he responded in 1 Samuel 9:21 -
And Saul answered and said, “Am I not a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel, and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin? Why then do you speak like this to me?”
Isn't it true that there was surpassing supremacy in ALL God's wisdom that He gave to Solomon? I can't understand why you are trying to make a point that some surpassingly supreme wisdom is more surpassingly supreme than other surpassingly supreme wisdom. Scripture doesn't tell us that, so why are you trying to insist upon that?
I am not trying to do what you are saying here. What I am saying is that because we know that God gave Solomon surpassing wisdom through which he made his throne, which was far less important to God than what His people did in divine worship, we can be certain that God gave Solomon surpassing wisdom about worship that excelled all the wisdom of all the peoples of the earth.
The ramifications of that truth for the instrumental worship music of God's people under Solomon versus all the instrumental music of all the other people of the earth at that time establish the validity of holding that some kinds of instrumental music (namely Israel's kinds of instrumental worship music under Solomon) were objectively better than all the other kinds of instrumental music of all the people of the world.
I am not trying to do what you are saying here. What I am saying is that because we know that God gave Solomon surpassing wisdom through which he made his throne, which was far less important to God than what His people did in divine worship, we can be certain that God gave Solomon surpassing wisdom about worship that excelled all the wisdom of all the peoples of the earth.
How do you know that one type of surpassingly supreme wisdom, the kind through which he made the throne, was less important to God than another type of surpassingly supreme wisdom? Are you just logically assuming that? I think all the kinds of wisdom God gave to Solomon were just as important to God as all the other kinds, whether it was construction wisdom or worship wisdom or administrative wisdom or interpersonal wisdom. If you think some kinds of wisdom that God gave are more important to God than others, then you should prove that from Scripture.
I do appreciate the fact that you are attempting to distinguish types of wisdom, since those factors can be significant in certain circumstances, even without explicit revelation distinguishing those factors. That's a point I've been making all along regarding factors.
The ramifications of that truth for the instrumental worship music of God's people under Solomon versus all the instrumental music of all the other people of the earth at that time establish the validity of holding that some kinds of instrumental music (namely Israel's kinds of instrumental worship music under Solomon) were objectively better than all the other kinds of instrumental music of all the people of the world.
What makes you think that "instrumental music wisdom" was a specific factor within "worship wisdom" when you haven't even shown that "worship wisdom" is a distinct factor within the exceedingly surpassing wisdom which God gave Solomon?
Also, since we know that Solomon's actions did not always align with the wisdom he had, how do we know that the instrumental music of the Israelites accurately reflected any assumed "instrumental music wisdom" that Solomon may have had?
How do you know that one type of surpassingly supreme wisdom, the kind through which he made the throne, was less important to God than another type of surpassingly supreme wisdom? Are you just logically assuming that? I think all the kinds of wisdom God gave to Solomon were just as important to God as all the other kinds, whether it was construction wisdom or worship wisdom or administrative wisdom or interpersonal wisdom. If you think some kinds of wisdom that God gave are more important to God than others, then you should prove that from Scripture.
No, I am not just logically assuming that. It is impossible to legitimately hold that God gave Solomon all-surpassing wisdom merely to do things for his own sake and his own interests, including making a throne for himself.
The Bible directly teaches that God seeks people to worship Him:
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
This is one of the most important statements in Scripture because it explicitly declares what God the Father is seeking. The Bible is replete with teaching that taken together shows that worship is the greatest obligation that all creatures have toward God.
Given that worship is the greatest obligation that all creatures have toward God, there is no possibility of rightly holding that the wisdom that God gave Solomon was not chiefly intended for him to further the acceptable worship of God among His own people.
It is impossible to legitimately hold that God gave Solomon all-surpassing wisdom merely to do things for his own sake and his own interests, including making a throne for himself.
But no one is holding that position. My idea was that all the types of wisdom God gave to Solomon were equally given. I never claimed God gave Solomon wisdom "merely to do things for his own sake." It would be nice if you actually answered the questions I posed to you in my last post instead of arguing against a position that no one has taken.
Given that worship is the greatest obligation that all creatures have toward God, there is no possibility of rightly holding that the wisdom that God gave Solomon was not chiefly intended for him to further the acceptable worship of God among His own people.
Well, we can rightly assume that was one of the effects of God's wisdom, but according to Scripture, that wasn't the main purpose. Let's look at 1 Kings 3:9 to see what Solomon asked God for.
Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?
He asked for wisdom to judge the nation of Israel properly as king. He asked for understanding to settle disputes, and we are given an example of this wisdom in the rest of the chapter. This wisdom would also include furthering acceptable worship, of course, but worship was not the main focus of what Solomon was asking for. God's response to Solomon was in 1 Kings 3:12.
Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.
The rest of the chapter details a dispute between two women who were claiming the same child. Solomon used his newly gained wisdom to rightly judge the dispute, and the chapter ends with verse 28 saying,
And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.
So if there is a particular "type" of wisdom that Solomon had in a surpassingly supreme way, it was wisdom to understand situations and make the right decisions. That type of wisdom, however, would seem to me to apply equally whether the situation involved construction, or worship, or administration, or any other situation Solomon would encounter. Your claim that the wisdom God gave Solomon was "chiefly intended" to "further the acceptable worship of God" is just not accurate according to 1 Kings 3.
Discussion