"The message of mainstream dispensational fundamentalism today [is] a discouraging, defeatist message!"
“What a discouraging, defeatist message! No wonder the younger generation is looking for the exits. Yet this is the message of mainstream dispensational fundamentalism today. The only hope in this perspective is the rapture. We should certainly praise the Lord that He will catch us away before the tribulation, but for some it seems as if the rapture is their escape from this old wicked world. The reasoning follows this line of thought: “things sure are getting worse on earth; I can’t wait for Christ to return.” Is this the response God desires us to have toward growing apostasy? Are we to live our final days in mere faithfulness, expecting fewer conversions while the church grows spiritually cold?”
It is unfortunate that the author of this piece chose to mention dispensationalism. He presents a shallow caricature of it here under the heading, “What is killing fundamentalism?”.
For a serious look at this issue, I would recommend beginning with the writings of Dr. Thomas Ice. Here is one article in particular:
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/are-we-living-in-last-days
(The author goes on to make a call for revival — supporting his thesis with references to Acts [and the apostolic period of sign miracles] and Isaiah [which relate to God’s work in Israel in the coming Kingdom].)
In light of the current ongoing discussions, this piece is a great example why some of us are nearing the point of discomfort with continuing in some aspects of “movement fundamentalism.”
(I have posted a portion of this reply in the “Response” section under the original story.)
It is unfortunate that the author of this piece chose to mention dispensationalism. He presents a shallow caricature of it here under the heading, “What is killing fundamentalism?”.
For a serious look at this issue, I would recommend beginning with the writings of Dr. Thomas Ice. Here is one article in particular:
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/are-we-living-in-last-days
(The author goes on to make a call for revival — supporting his thesis with references to Acts [and the apostolic period of sign miracles] and Isaiah [which relate to God’s work in Israel in the coming Kingdom].)
In light of the current ongoing discussions, this piece is a great example why some of us are nearing the point of discomfort with continuing in some aspects of “movement fundamentalism.”
(I have posted a portion of this reply in the “Response” section under the original story.)
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
I do think the author is right about the problem of pessemistic premil. I also think he’s right about there being a right kind of holiness vs. a wrong kind. I’m not sure these are the core issues…..but these are both legitimate issues.
Straight Ahead!
jt
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
The Biblical (premillennial) view of history includes pessimism (2 Tim. 3:13) within ultimate optimism (Eph. 1:10).
Perhaps there could be a problem in the posturing or presentation of the premillennial teacher, making his message needlessly pessimistic. But that is not what the author charges. He is talking about the content of the message he heard, saying he has nothing against the speakers personally.
The writer lays the blame on “the message of mainstream dispensational fundamentalism today.” He says, “The only hope in this perspective is the rapture.”
That is an incorrect understanding of dispensationalism. The purpose of the rapture is not escapism, but being with Christ (1 John 3:2, 3) as a bride waits for her bridegroom. These charges have been answered for years. Since the writer is, per se, attacking dispensationalism, he must be proposing some other message. Yet he offers a non-sequitor — revival, power and holiness are not incompatible with, necessarily opposed to or corrective of dispensationalism.
He asks, “Is this (waiting for Christ to return) the response God desires us to have toward growing apostasy?”
Were the author to follow through in a logical manner, he would have to propose either signs and wonders, postmillennialism or both.
I am a dispensationalist, and I strongly oppose to the content of this article.
Perhaps there could be a problem in the posturing or presentation of the premillennial teacher, making his message needlessly pessimistic. But that is not what the author charges. He is talking about the content of the message he heard, saying he has nothing against the speakers personally.
The writer lays the blame on “the message of mainstream dispensational fundamentalism today.” He says, “The only hope in this perspective is the rapture.”
That is an incorrect understanding of dispensationalism. The purpose of the rapture is not escapism, but being with Christ (1 John 3:2, 3) as a bride waits for her bridegroom. These charges have been answered for years. Since the writer is, per se, attacking dispensationalism, he must be proposing some other message. Yet he offers a non-sequitor — revival, power and holiness are not incompatible with, necessarily opposed to or corrective of dispensationalism.
He asks, “Is this (waiting for Christ to return) the response God desires us to have toward growing apostasy?”
Were the author to follow through in a logical manner, he would have to propose either signs and wonders, postmillennialism or both.
I am a dispensationalist, and I strongly oppose to the content of this article.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
I agree with the author that there is a depressing dispensationalism plaguing fundamentalism, but there is also confusion over apostasy. I was at a conference where a preacher preached that if you didn’t use the KJV, you were apostate. I’ve heard another preacher teach that if you are affiliated with BJU, you were on your way to apostasy. Today there are fundamentalists who believe that pants on women, patch the pirate, the Getty Hymns, Sharper Iron, and other things are part of the apostasy. I was at a pastor’s meeting a few years ago where the men were questioning the use of a projector and screen for hymnsinging because that could lead to sin.
Pastor Joe,
Are you saying that dispensationalism is part of the plague on fundamentalism, that it is a specific variety of dispensationalism which is the problem or that the way it is being presented is part of the plague?
Frankly, I did not know that fundamentalists as a whole were that worried about dispensationalism. (Who knew?)
Don’t you think “plague” is an awfully strong word?
As a traditional dispensationalist, I would not even use the word “plague” to describe covenant theology, as much as I disagree with it.
I guess I am amazed that this article is being received so positively. I must be missing something… :~
Are you saying that dispensationalism is part of the plague on fundamentalism, that it is a specific variety of dispensationalism which is the problem or that the way it is being presented is part of the plague?
Frankly, I did not know that fundamentalists as a whole were that worried about dispensationalism. (Who knew?)
Don’t you think “plague” is an awfully strong word?
As a traditional dispensationalist, I would not even use the word “plague” to describe covenant theology, as much as I disagree with it.
I guess I am amazed that this article is being received so positively. I must be missing something… :~
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
Without critiquing the entire article, this much I agree with:
Yet we have the promise of the Great Commission
I believe that mainstream fundamentalism has developed tunnel vision – seeing only the oncoming train of apostasy but failing to recognize that the church is not on a collision course with that train. On the contrary, Jesus Christ has given us some trustworthy promises, assuring us of victory.
…. fundamentalists may have the outward trappings of godliness — church attendance, devotions, Christian schooling or homeschooling, standards, and even participation in some type of weekly outreach – but externals are not proof of genuine spirituality. The real issue is whether or not fundamentalists are seeking personal communion with Christ, not whether or not they maintain certain external practices.My position is pre-mill / pre-trib. My view summarized:
But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived (2 Timothy 3:13)This isn’t pessimism …. it’s Scriptural.
Yet we have the promise of the Great Commission
lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age (Matthew 28:20)Each generation is called upon to obey that commission (Matthew 28:18-20). We cannot rest on the laurels of the greats who have gone on before us! We need to “quit you like men” as the KJV states (1 Corinthians 16:13)
Paul,
It seems you are misunderstanding my position. Allow me to clarify that I am a pre-trib, pre-mil, dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalist. I am not attacking dispensationalism. Nor am I suggesting that dispensationalism is to blame for the defeatist mentality in fundamentalism. I was simply using the term “dispensational fundamentalism” in my article as an identifying term, to distinguish from non-dispensational fundamentalism, with which I am unfamiliar.
My point is simple. I believe that fundamentalism is a dying movement because it is a powerless movement. I am suggesting that fundamentalism is powerless because it is worldly and because it is not claiming the numerous promises in God’s Word for revival and victorious living. One of the evidences of the movement’s death is a defeatist mentality.
I agree with you one hundred percent that the rapture is not escapism, but being with Christ. What a glorious hope we have! I was merely suggesting that in the conference I attended, the drumbeat of the speakers was that there is not much we can do to change the growing apostasy. Their expectation was that times will only grow worse until the rapture, so we should continue to be faithful until Christ returns. The problem I have with this view is that I believe emphatically that God wants to accomplish so much more this side of the rapture. Yes, apostasy is abounding. That will not change. But why aren’t the saints, by faith, claiming the promises of the Word and asking God to send a mighty, Acts-like revival (which, incidentally, He has done numerous times all throughout church history) for the purpose of enlivening the church and saving masses of souls prior to His catching up of the saints? That’s my point.
It seems you are misunderstanding my position. Allow me to clarify that I am a pre-trib, pre-mil, dyed-in-the-wool dispensationalist. I am not attacking dispensationalism. Nor am I suggesting that dispensationalism is to blame for the defeatist mentality in fundamentalism. I was simply using the term “dispensational fundamentalism” in my article as an identifying term, to distinguish from non-dispensational fundamentalism, with which I am unfamiliar.
My point is simple. I believe that fundamentalism is a dying movement because it is a powerless movement. I am suggesting that fundamentalism is powerless because it is worldly and because it is not claiming the numerous promises in God’s Word for revival and victorious living. One of the evidences of the movement’s death is a defeatist mentality.
I agree with you one hundred percent that the rapture is not escapism, but being with Christ. What a glorious hope we have! I was merely suggesting that in the conference I attended, the drumbeat of the speakers was that there is not much we can do to change the growing apostasy. Their expectation was that times will only grow worse until the rapture, so we should continue to be faithful until Christ returns. The problem I have with this view is that I believe emphatically that God wants to accomplish so much more this side of the rapture. Yes, apostasy is abounding. That will not change. But why aren’t the saints, by faith, claiming the promises of the Word and asking God to send a mighty, Acts-like revival (which, incidentally, He has done numerous times all throughout church history) for the purpose of enlivening the church and saving masses of souls prior to His catching up of the saints? That’s my point.
Pastor James Hollandsworth Tri-City Baptist Church www.tri-city-baptist.com
Jim,
I appreciate the clarification. Perhaps we are just talking past one another or misunderstanding semantics — largely arguing for the same goals.
While I am still uncomfortable with the wording of the orginal article and find its caution about the dispensationalist message to be less than clear, I see your point and certainly agree with the need for proactive, spiritually-empowered Christian service until the time of the Rapture.
I would disagree, however, that the “revivals” of the sign-miracle portion of the church age which occurred in the book of Acts are a model for what to expect in our time — especially if these are the final days of apostasy of the church age before the rapture. (We can say with certainty that we are living in the last of the last days of the New Testament era [Heb. 1:2].)
Does that mean that we should not do all that we can to the best of our ability? Of course not.
But perhaps we should focus even more on having a sober-minded understanding of the significance of the “signs of the times,” so to speak, in light of the intricate details of Scripture (i.e., not “newspaper exegesis”). The Bible has much to say to the faithful remnant of God’s people living in times of apostasy (Isa. 8:16-18; cf. Heb. 2:13), and promises great blessings for those who study the prophetic Word (Rev. 22:10). I appreciate those who have Biblical insight into the growing apostasy of our age.
I appreciate the clarification. Perhaps we are just talking past one another or misunderstanding semantics — largely arguing for the same goals.
While I am still uncomfortable with the wording of the orginal article and find its caution about the dispensationalist message to be less than clear, I see your point and certainly agree with the need for proactive, spiritually-empowered Christian service until the time of the Rapture.
I would disagree, however, that the “revivals” of the sign-miracle portion of the church age which occurred in the book of Acts are a model for what to expect in our time — especially if these are the final days of apostasy of the church age before the rapture. (We can say with certainty that we are living in the last of the last days of the New Testament era [Heb. 1:2].)
Does that mean that we should not do all that we can to the best of our ability? Of course not.
But perhaps we should focus even more on having a sober-minded understanding of the significance of the “signs of the times,” so to speak, in light of the intricate details of Scripture (i.e., not “newspaper exegesis”). The Bible has much to say to the faithful remnant of God’s people living in times of apostasy (Isa. 8:16-18; cf. Heb. 2:13), and promises great blessings for those who study the prophetic Word (Rev. 22:10). I appreciate those who have Biblical insight into the growing apostasy of our age.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Paul J. Scharf] Pastor Joe,
Are you saying that dispensationalism is part of the plague on fundamentalism, that it is a specific variety of dispensationalism which is the problem or that the way it is being presented is part of the plague?
Frankly, I did not know that fundamentalists as a whole were that worried about dispensationalism. (Who knew?)
Don’t you think “plague” is an awfully strong word?
As a traditional dispensationalist, I would not even use the word “plague” to describe covenant theology, as much as I disagree with it.
I guess I am amazed that this article is being received so positively. I must be missing something… :~
No. Dispensationalism with a depressing mindset is bad. Dispensationalism with the joy of the Lord is good.
Plague is a strong word but if we don’t have joy, then we don’t have the fruit of the Spirit, so when believers are not filled with the Holy Spirit we have a plague.
Again, my bigger concern with the article was that we really have become loose in defining apostasy. I just have trouble believing a church is experiencing apostasia because it uses a screen, the women wear pants, or because of some of these other issues.
[Pastor Joe Roof]Joe,
… my bigger concern with the article was that we really have become loose in defining apostasy. I just have trouble believing a church is experiencing apostasia because it uses a screen, the women wear pants, or because of some of these other issues.
I agree with your statement above. Let me clarify the definition of apostasy that I was assuming in my article (and which was also assumed at the conference I attended). Apostasy is abandonment of the gospel. Period. We could debate whether or not we should include abandonment of the historic doctrines of the faith in that definition (e.g., virgin birth, bodily resurrection, etc.), but that is immaterial to our present discussion and to my article. I hope this helps to clarify.
Pastor James Hollandsworth Tri-City Baptist Church www.tri-city-baptist.com
OK. Let me take a stab at defining the problem.
Great article, Jim.
Despite the fact that dispensational pre-trib pre-mil thinking is accurate (IMO), the feelings some people have about it are not grounded in the Biblical text. I have seen what Jim is describing at work in a previous church. The people view themselves as being in a fortress that they are trying to hold until the return of Christ, rather than as an offensive force. The people focus on eschatology in a morbid, depressing mood, counting every evil in the world as a sign of the imminent rapture (which they mistakenly take to mean in the next few months).
While I teach this position, I continually warn our people that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope, but not a rescue of a defeated force (not our Dunkirk, like in WWII).
I also remind them that there have been many other times in which believers thought that the end was near, and it was not. I attempt to ground them in Acts 1:7-8, which plainly defines that the “strategic times and epochal seasons” (as Wuest translates it) are not for us to know, but what we are given is power to reach out for Christ.
Jim contrasts this victorious powerful perspective (the Acts 1:8 one) with what he saw at a meeting: a bunch of traditionalist (in the bad sense of the word) sit around and lament everything that has changed as a great evil, and identify it as one of the signs of the end times. Apostasy becomes defined in terms of a slippery slope (since a few who use Powerpoint or have guitars on stage also departed from the faith, Powerpoint and guitars cause a departure from the faith). Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Jim is correct in identifying this as a leading cause for the young departing the movement. Those folks would depress a hyena.
Great article, Jim.
Despite the fact that dispensational pre-trib pre-mil thinking is accurate (IMO), the feelings some people have about it are not grounded in the Biblical text. I have seen what Jim is describing at work in a previous church. The people view themselves as being in a fortress that they are trying to hold until the return of Christ, rather than as an offensive force. The people focus on eschatology in a morbid, depressing mood, counting every evil in the world as a sign of the imminent rapture (which they mistakenly take to mean in the next few months).
While I teach this position, I continually warn our people that the Rapture is the Blessed Hope, but not a rescue of a defeated force (not our Dunkirk, like in WWII).
I also remind them that there have been many other times in which believers thought that the end was near, and it was not. I attempt to ground them in Acts 1:7-8, which plainly defines that the “strategic times and epochal seasons” (as Wuest translates it) are not for us to know, but what we are given is power to reach out for Christ.
Jim contrasts this victorious powerful perspective (the Acts 1:8 one) with what he saw at a meeting: a bunch of traditionalist (in the bad sense of the word) sit around and lament everything that has changed as a great evil, and identify it as one of the signs of the end times. Apostasy becomes defined in terms of a slippery slope (since a few who use Powerpoint or have guitars on stage also departed from the faith, Powerpoint and guitars cause a departure from the faith). Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Jim is correct in identifying this as a leading cause for the young departing the movement. Those folks would depress a hyena.
[Pastor Joe Roof] I agree with the author that there is a depressing dispensationalism plaguing fundamentalism, but there is also confusion over apostasy. I was at a conference where a preacher preached that if you didn’t use the KJV, you were apostate. I’ve heard another preacher teach that if you are affiliated with BJU, you were on your way to apostasy. Today there are fundamentalists who believe that pants on women, patch the pirate, the Getty Hymns, Sharper Iron, and other things are part of the apostasy. I was at a pastor’s meeting a few years ago where the men were questioning the use of a projector and screen for hymnsinging because that could lead to sin.Seems like everyone is apostate if they don’t agree with one’s own views. There much too much of this going on within the church including some voices on Sharper Iron at times.
Richard Pajak
[Jim Hollandsworth] Paul,How is it possible for a cessationist to ask for an Acts like revival when they quench the expressions of the Holy Spirit when He does begin to work? Cessationism to me seems to be a faith quencher.
But why aren’t the saints, by faith, claiming the promises of the Word and asking God to send a mighty, Acts-like revival (which, incidentally, He has done numerous times all throughout church history) for the purpose of enlivening the church and saving masses of souls prior to His catching up of the saints? That’s my point.
Richard Pajak
[Mike Durning]Thanks Mike. Your comments ring the bell. I would only add that, at times, we all have the tendency to get defeatist when we take our eyes off Christ. I certainly have been there, I must humbly admit. As I noted in the original article, it is critical that fundamentalism not develop tunnel vision because of our eschatological position. We must continually remember the promises of Christ, that we have been given all power (i.e., enablement) for achieving “greater works.” This thrills my soul, and keeps me in an offensive mode rather than merely a defensive position. Even though the enemies of the gospel are abounding, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. Hallelujah!
Jim is correct in identifying this as a leading cause for the young departing the movement. Those folks would depress a hyena.
Earnestly contending for the faith is critical, but so is the proactive aspect of going forth as empowered witnesses for Christ, both in our local “Jerusalems” and to the uttermost parts of the earth. My challenge for fundamentalism is that we cling to the numerous promises in the Word that lead to personal victory and church advancement. So much more could be accomplished for Christ.
Pastor James Hollandsworth Tri-City Baptist Church www.tri-city-baptist.com
[Richard Pajak][Jim Hollandsworth] Paul,I believe the age of sign gifts ended when the apostolic era ended . I guess that would make me a cessationist. However (and this is a big however!), I believe that God continues to do amazing, miraculous things in our present era in response to the prayers of God’s people. I guess that suggests that I am not a pure cessationist. The important thing to remember is that we live in the age of the Holy Spirit, and He is no less powerful today than He was in the book of Acts. I believe that God’s plan is for the church to be experiencing Acts-level revival all the time! That doesn’t mean we should be looking for incidentals (e.g., the building being shaken, as happened in the Lewis Awakening — see the biography of Duncan Campbell, “Channel of Revival”), but rather looking for the presence of God. Oftentimes, when God is present, unusual things happen, but that is not to be our focus. My soul is stirred when I read of God’s working in the Welsh Revival and the Awakenings in America’s history. When I read of Jonathan Goforth’s revival ministry in China and James Stewart’s in Eastern Europe and Duncan Campbell’s in Scotland, I know that Acts-level revival is for our era and we are missing it by not taking possession of our inheritance in Christ.
How is it possible for a cessationist to ask for an Acts like revival when they quench the expressions of the Holy Spirit when He does begin to work? Cessationism to me seems to be a faith quencher.
Pastor James Hollandsworth Tri-City Baptist Church www.tri-city-baptist.com
Discussion