Removing Praise Team, Song Leaders or Anyone Else Holding Mics or Waving Their Arms
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I have been to some churches where the “song leader” (in all cases male) in the worship service sat at the piano. And for the most part, I was glad the congregational singing was led this way. I am guessing there might be other intangibles, but for the most part I think I was grateful for this kind of song leading because of two reasons which culminated in a third: First, the person “leading” was a capable player. Second, the song leader had a voice which could carry us—guiding our singing. Last, as a result of these two, I was not distracted from thoughtful reflection or participation—either by many sour notes or distracting practices of the leader.
I am not really looking for a debate on my reasoning, but I am looking for feedback on an idea which has similarities, but is different.
First, our pianist is a woman—presuming she had the vocal power to “carry” the rest of us, should she be the one leading our singing—from the piano in this case?
Second, if she did not “lead” the singing, from a logistical standpoint, can a group of people sing together without one large vocal presence (single or team) to visibly or vocally lead them?
Any thoughts would be appreciated—if you comment on the first question, please make a comment on the second, with reasons.
I am not really looking for a debate on my reasoning, but I am looking for feedback on an idea which has similarities, but is different.
First, our pianist is a woman—presuming she had the vocal power to “carry” the rest of us, should she be the one leading our singing—from the piano in this case?
Second, if she did not “lead” the singing, from a logistical standpoint, can a group of people sing together without one large vocal presence (single or team) to visibly or vocally lead them?
Any thoughts would be appreciated—if you comment on the first question, please make a comment on the second, with reasons.
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I grew up in small churches in New England where the pastor led the song service by simply announcing the hymn and then singing–no arm waving. I didn’t see evangelistic song leading until i wen “down south”. Sunday we attended a large church with great congregational siniging but with no arm waving. I didn’t miss it.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
If the only person who can play and sing is a woman at the piano, do it. If a man comes along who can lead the singing let her play and him lead. But don’t let any one get up and make a show out of the leading of congregational singing.
Yes, it can be a woman. No, somebody has to lead. Whether she leads with the piano, or the organ, or with her voice, or conducts is all the same.
Frankly, most folks who make a big deal out of not having a “song leader” do, in fact, have a song leader. They have just abdicated their leadership to an instrument or the loudest voice. A group does not have to have a leader if:
1. They rehearse the music like an unconducted choir;
2. Or they sing every song exactly the same way.
(Side note: For some reason men’s voices tend to lead groups better than women’s voices. Read the studies on the way people respond to men’s voices vs. women’s voices. People generally respond better to lower pitched voices. Which is why female radio and TV personalities tend to speak in a very low register—pitch, not necessarily volume. But in order to have “carrying power” to her voice, a women must either use a higher register [Female “head voice,” as classical singers do.] or force unnatural volume from her lower register risking vocal damage.)
I know SamH has already made up his mind, but for the rest of us … .
I’m not sure I understand the angst toward song leading. I don’t have the ideal voice for song leading. Think Irish tenor type sound: higher and lighter than the ideal “booming baritone” man’s voice. So either I cannot lead my congregation in worship or I must lead by conducting. If you get your knickers in a twist about arm waving, just admit that it’s about conducting. Don’t try to make some spiritual issue out of it. Not sure how leading by singing or playing is philosophically any different than leading by conducting. One is just visual and one is auditory. Somebody still has to lead. (I guess another option is that I can lead from the organ or piano, which I have done many times for weddings, graduations, etc. But most of our fundamental churches aren’t used to singing with an organ leading. I don’t know that it’s better or worse, I’ve just never served under a pastor who wanted me to teach the congregation to follow an organ. :-)
We’ve all met singers who have only one volume, right? Some are just loud—always. And some can’t be loud and they only sing softly. We don’t say the issue is with singing as a communcation tool. We say they need to get some training and learn how to use the tool of singing more effectively! We don’t fuss about the instrument when the guitar player can play only one strum pattern!
The same is true of conducting. There is a big difference in the way I conduct a choir versus the way I lead a congregation. And there is a huge difference in the way I lead a congregation for a funeral service versus a week of evangelistic meetings. (This depends on the evangelist, of course.) Campfire services are different from Sunday morning services are very different from choir rehearsals are different from special services (weddings, funerals, etc.), and each has a conducting style appropriate for that occasion.
Dave
Frankly, most folks who make a big deal out of not having a “song leader” do, in fact, have a song leader. They have just abdicated their leadership to an instrument or the loudest voice. A group does not have to have a leader if:
1. They rehearse the music like an unconducted choir;
2. Or they sing every song exactly the same way.
(Side note: For some reason men’s voices tend to lead groups better than women’s voices. Read the studies on the way people respond to men’s voices vs. women’s voices. People generally respond better to lower pitched voices. Which is why female radio and TV personalities tend to speak in a very low register—pitch, not necessarily volume. But in order to have “carrying power” to her voice, a women must either use a higher register [Female “head voice,” as classical singers do.] or force unnatural volume from her lower register risking vocal damage.)
I know SamH has already made up his mind, but for the rest of us … .
I’m not sure I understand the angst toward song leading. I don’t have the ideal voice for song leading. Think Irish tenor type sound: higher and lighter than the ideal “booming baritone” man’s voice. So either I cannot lead my congregation in worship or I must lead by conducting. If you get your knickers in a twist about arm waving, just admit that it’s about conducting. Don’t try to make some spiritual issue out of it. Not sure how leading by singing or playing is philosophically any different than leading by conducting. One is just visual and one is auditory. Somebody still has to lead. (I guess another option is that I can lead from the organ or piano, which I have done many times for weddings, graduations, etc. But most of our fundamental churches aren’t used to singing with an organ leading. I don’t know that it’s better or worse, I’ve just never served under a pastor who wanted me to teach the congregation to follow an organ. :-)
We’ve all met singers who have only one volume, right? Some are just loud—always. And some can’t be loud and they only sing softly. We don’t say the issue is with singing as a communcation tool. We say they need to get some training and learn how to use the tool of singing more effectively! We don’t fuss about the instrument when the guitar player can play only one strum pattern!
The same is true of conducting. There is a big difference in the way I conduct a choir versus the way I lead a congregation. And there is a huge difference in the way I lead a congregation for a funeral service versus a week of evangelistic meetings. (This depends on the evangelist, of course.) Campfire services are different from Sunday morning services are very different from choir rehearsals are different from special services (weddings, funerals, etc.), and each has a conducting style appropriate for that occasion.
Dave
Interesting questions. Something I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about lately, because I’ve recently moved across the country and joined a church leadership team in a very different cultural context. I’m a church musician and over the years have led congregations between 10 and 5,000.
From my perspective, the answer to the question of a woman leading singing lies in one’s view of women taking leadership in the church in general. I think the issue is sometimes clouded by our standard designation of “song leader.” The term implies that the activity of worshiping by singing is primarily a musical event, when in fact it is primarily a spiritual event which happens to be set to music. The most important event that happens on a Sunday morning is the preaching, therefore the selection of the preacher is crucial. But I would argue that the second-most important activity is worship, and thus the person leading that event is the second-most “important” person involved.
Leading worship through singing isn’t primarily about keeping everyone together or choosing an appropriate tempo; It’s about planning and preparing a time of worship that is thoughtful, intentional, meaningful, spiritual, truthful, profitable and acceptable (among other things), and then leading people — in thought and action — through the worship event in a way that promotes and encourages genuine worship in spirit and in truth. Giving that spiritual responsibility to the person with the best piano skills, the loudest voice, the best “arm-waving” skills, or (more often) the best personality, seems near-sighted at best. But that is exactly what many churches seem to do.
On the logistical side of things: Can an un-led (vocal, piano, or visual) group sing together? Sure. The question is: can they sing well? That would depend on multiple individual factors. You may need to experiment and see what works best.
Many churches don’t have strong musicians and yet still enjoy great congregational worship. You work with what you have. And in my experience, the vibrancy of a congregation’s worship is more dependent on spiritual factors (the pulpit) than musical ones (the piano). You can have acapella singing, with no visual leading, but if the person in charge is a mature spiritual leader, with a shepherd’s heart and good communications skills, you have good worship leading. Basic song-leading skills can be acquired. Good musical instincts take a little more to come by, but even that can be developed.
The leaders of the church are charged with the spiritual health of the flock. The role of leading in worship is too important to abdicate.
From my perspective, the answer to the question of a woman leading singing lies in one’s view of women taking leadership in the church in general. I think the issue is sometimes clouded by our standard designation of “song leader.” The term implies that the activity of worshiping by singing is primarily a musical event, when in fact it is primarily a spiritual event which happens to be set to music. The most important event that happens on a Sunday morning is the preaching, therefore the selection of the preacher is crucial. But I would argue that the second-most important activity is worship, and thus the person leading that event is the second-most “important” person involved.
Leading worship through singing isn’t primarily about keeping everyone together or choosing an appropriate tempo; It’s about planning and preparing a time of worship that is thoughtful, intentional, meaningful, spiritual, truthful, profitable and acceptable (among other things), and then leading people — in thought and action — through the worship event in a way that promotes and encourages genuine worship in spirit and in truth. Giving that spiritual responsibility to the person with the best piano skills, the loudest voice, the best “arm-waving” skills, or (more often) the best personality, seems near-sighted at best. But that is exactly what many churches seem to do.
On the logistical side of things: Can an un-led (vocal, piano, or visual) group sing together? Sure. The question is: can they sing well? That would depend on multiple individual factors. You may need to experiment and see what works best.
Many churches don’t have strong musicians and yet still enjoy great congregational worship. You work with what you have. And in my experience, the vibrancy of a congregation’s worship is more dependent on spiritual factors (the pulpit) than musical ones (the piano). You can have acapella singing, with no visual leading, but if the person in charge is a mature spiritual leader, with a shepherd’s heart and good communications skills, you have good worship leading. Basic song-leading skills can be acquired. Good musical instincts take a little more to come by, but even that can be developed.
The leaders of the church are charged with the spiritual health of the flock. The role of leading in worship is too important to abdicate.
[Dave Stertzbach II] I know SamH has already made up his mind, but for the rest of us … . DaveThanks for the comments Dave,
but I am trying to figure out how my initial post shows my mind is made up?
Maybe I just don’t get the subtleties? Or I am missing some sort of logical fallacy I fell into as I wrote… or?
Dunno, but even if it somehow stands against what I have already written, I am not against having a songleader up front—just asking questions about alternatives.
Sam
SamH
Sorry, Sam. I re-read my post and it does sound snarky, doesn’t it? I was trying to be funny beacuse I was reading:
Dave
[SamH] I am not really looking for a debate on my reasoning, but I am looking for feedback on an idea which has similarities, but is different.to mean you didn’t want to discuss options other than leading from the piano. But that isn’t what you said. I apologize for not reading and responding with grace.
Dave
But, I must admit I did begin to wonder if I had pulled a petitio principii or something…
BTW, I appreciate your note and it is helping my thinking about this…
Sam Hendrickson
BTW, I appreciate your note and it is helping my thinking about this…
Sam Hendrickson
SamH
Heh-heh. Thanks for being gracious.
I realize that I have blown any credibility to speak to the subject now. But two things forced me to scrutinize what I was doing in the pulpit every Sunday: I began teaching Congregational Song Leading at a Bible college, and I was challenged by friends as to the value and appropriateness of what I was doing by “waving my arms.” My several years of reading, thought, and spiritual counsel gathering resulted in not a huge change in the physicality of what I do. (Imagine that! My teachers weren’t so stupid after all :-)) But it did give me a more concrete philosophy of WHY I do what I do. And it gave me both a deeper appreciation for folks who do things differently and more choices from which to choose the correct tool for each musical project.
Dave
I realize that I have blown any credibility to speak to the subject now. But two things forced me to scrutinize what I was doing in the pulpit every Sunday: I began teaching Congregational Song Leading at a Bible college, and I was challenged by friends as to the value and appropriateness of what I was doing by “waving my arms.” My several years of reading, thought, and spiritual counsel gathering resulted in not a huge change in the physicality of what I do. (Imagine that! My teachers weren’t so stupid after all :-)) But it did give me a more concrete philosophy of WHY I do what I do. And it gave me both a deeper appreciation for folks who do things differently and more choices from which to choose the correct tool for each musical project.
Dave
My church has a more traditional style of congregational worship where one of the men in the church “leads” from the pulpit (or waves his arms around and “chops wood”, as my dad likes to say) and the organist/pianist accompanies.
The problem is, more often than not, the director du jour doesn’t express excitement, enthusiasm, or authority. When you’re feeding a dead pan expression, half-hearted arm flapping, and a sketchy, draggy tempo to the congregation, you can’t expect much gusto and enthusiasm in return. There is nothing more de-motivational than a less-than-enthusiastic director.
As a pianist, it’s extremely frustrating when the music is not led with authority. Sometimes I feel like it would be much better in the long-run to find a different way to “lead” the worship if the “leaders” are just going to go at it half-heartedly.
The problem is, more often than not, the director du jour doesn’t express excitement, enthusiasm, or authority. When you’re feeding a dead pan expression, half-hearted arm flapping, and a sketchy, draggy tempo to the congregation, you can’t expect much gusto and enthusiasm in return. There is nothing more de-motivational than a less-than-enthusiastic director.
As a pianist, it’s extremely frustrating when the music is not led with authority. Sometimes I feel like it would be much better in the long-run to find a different way to “lead” the worship if the “leaders” are just going to go at it half-heartedly.
with the last. Even the EC-B has song leaders though they may or may not have any instruments (the last is a matter of the talents and resources of a given church not a matter of doctrine) has song leaders. Under teh most basic situations, the leader lines out the given hymn.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
The best would be to have a man you can train in song-leading who will follow a Biblical philosophy for worship.
Failing this a man leading songs from the piano (while playing) is good. This is what we do at our church.
I would not have a lady leading worship nor do I agree with the contemporary worship team philosophy.
DJung
By the way we have done things the same way for a long time more or less since 1986 and we won’t be changing anytime soon. My church family has been trained and really gets into our worship time before God.
Failing this a man leading songs from the piano (while playing) is good. This is what we do at our church.
I would not have a lady leading worship nor do I agree with the contemporary worship team philosophy.
DJung
By the way we have done things the same way for a long time more or less since 1986 and we won’t be changing anytime soon. My church family has been trained and really gets into our worship time before God.
We don’t need artificial inflation of the volume. Piano is loud. Singing is loud. All natural. Organic. Non-electrical. No danger of power outage.
DJung
DJung
[RachaelH] My church has a more traditional style of congregational worship where one of the men in the church “leads” from the pulpit (or waves his arms around and “chops wood”, as my dad likes to say) and the organist/pianist accompanies.My husband is a “church pianist” .. It DOES make a huge difference when there’s an enthusiastic director - but I’ve noticed when the director is “dead pan” the congregation follows the piano anyway .. So at times my husband is directing.. Actually this Easter he IS directing our Cantata from the piano .. laugh … actually just the rehearsal - he feels VERY strongly our little choir can do it right without anyone “directing” up front..
The problem is, more often than not, the director du jour doesn’t express excitement, enthusiasm, or authority. When you’re feeding a dead pan expression, half-hearted arm flapping, and a sketchy, draggy tempo to the congregation, you can’t expect much gusto and enthusiasm in return. There is nothing more de-motivational than a less-than-enthusiastic director.
As a pianist, it’s extremely frustrating when the music is not led with authority. Sometimes I feel like it would be much better in the long-run to find a different way to “lead” the worship if the “leaders” are just going to go at it half-heartedly.
Discussion