Main Strengths of IFB?

How is God currently using (southern oriented) IFM and similar? I do not intentionally discriminate vs northern or other IFB but am just simply evaluating what I am familiar with. No slight, no offense intended! OK? If this southern shoe fits you too, so much the better. Join in! No movement no church, is or should, be trying to do too many things, IMO. Let’s step back and take an objective look at us - self evaluation..Yes we have needs and weaknesses but right now what are we being and doing well, relative to other movements? Here are some strong points, generally speaking, IMO, among the BJU, PCC, CROWN, WEST COAST BAP, AMBASSADOR and similar church sub-cultures. These strengths are listed randomly not ranked. You may see it differently. Am I missing something? Think big pix, broad brush - not just your local church. Every tradition has sub-variations and sub, sub variations. 1. business-like, task oriented, - plow horse, work ethic 2. stay with the stuff doctrinally: no frills, plain vanilla focus on essential doctrines -we major on majors not minors, like Paul (1 Cor 2.2) 3. zealous evangelists 4. committed missionaries; steady, local church missions support 5. Christian schools, home schools emphasis 7. if we began as largely a blue collar movement, we now have more white collar members and professionals. And they seem to mix well in same church. Even some largely white collar, middle class IFB churches exist. 8. personal godliness, relatively speaking with emphasis on clean, holy living, modest dress and bvr 9. patriotic 10. often find a humble, servant oriented mentality yet often mixed with a personal boldness to speak the truth in loving frankness 11. love for God’s Word, prayer; many not ashamed to openly talk about Jesus 12. altar call, salvation emphasis; home visitation, on the job witnessing; NT soul winning of strangers still held in high regard 13. retain moderate, traditional music blended with some well known Scripture and praise choruses plus some blessed, edifying, non-hymns, written in recent years (southern gospel, Ron Hamiltion, et al) 14. handful of fine Christian colleges, willing, talented students 15. many ch. continue to meet for worship 3 times weekly 16. clear sense of who we are and are not - what we are about 17. strong leadership, preaching to keep us out of some ditches other movements are in 18. other? (If this thread goes well, listing IFB needs, struggles may follow.)

Discussion

BJU is not KJVO. The rest of the schools you name are. To be KJVO is to be in error on a major foundation doctrine of Christianity. There are also other doctrines they teach that are not Biblical. These are not part of Biblical Fundamental Christianity. Their weakness overshadows any strengths. Our measurement is still the word of God not business success standards. It is not North v. South. It is Bible v. church belief and methods.

I could talk at great length about things I don’t like in the IFB, but it’s probably more edifying at this juncture to render thanks for some good, good that persists despite all the bad stuff.

1. Scripture memory

I’m thankful that IFB churches and schools crammed so much Scripture down my throat and believed that it was really important to do so. Thanks in large part to my IFB upbringing, I’ve memorized hundreds of doctrinally and spiritually significant verses, a few chapters, and half a dozen or so books of the New Testament. God’s Word can always bear fruit in the souls of his children.

2. Compassion on the lost

I’m not much impressed with rallies, revivals, or gimmicky evangelism programs. Rather, growing up I heard men, women, and teenagers cry and pray over lost souls. Many people in my churches prayed faithfully for not just their own but other people’s lost friends and family. There are several individual whom I suspect have been more faithful in praying for my lost friends and family than I myself have. Furthermore, most of these people were willing to plead earnestly with those lost people to come to Christ, even at the risk of comfort and relationships. Such a heart reflects the Savior.

My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

Here are some links from “stuff fundies like” web page where the author spends a whole week sharing what he believes fundamentalists (especially from the IFB) are doing right. Normally he is satirizing them, but for a week, he shares what he appreciates about his fundy IFB background.

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/05/announcing-a-week-of-fundy-love/

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/05/fundy-love-day-1-community/

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/05/fundy-love-day-2-hymnody/

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/05/fundy-love-day-3-literacy/

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/05/fundy-love-day-4-scripture-memo…

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/05/fundy-love-day-5-gods-sovereign…

[Bob T.] BJU is not KJVO. The rest of the schools you name are. To be KJVO is to be in error on a major foundation doctrine of Christianity. There are also other doctrines they teach that are not Biblical. These are not part of Biblical Fundamental Christianity. Their weakness overshadows any strengths. Our measurement is still the word of God not business success standards. It is not North v. South. It is Bible v. church belief and methods.
Correct. Every school has to have a ‘default’ Bible version for study, and BJU has chosen to use the KJV.

http://www.bju.edu/academics/religion/faq.php] They say:
BJU respects the KJV and its place in the history of preaching. We use the KJV in chapel and classes and do not allow our faculty to show disrespect for it. However, we do believe there is more than one acceptable modern English translation. This is what we teach, but we do not make a major emphasis out of it.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

I was saved in an IFB church, 41 years ago.

I do appreciate in order:

  • Baptists …. suggest that we understand our history and http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm early beliefs better ! We started BEFORE fundamentalism. But we did not start with John the Baptist (by the way I personally reject the http://www.trailofblood.org/ Trial of Blood view of Baptist history.) I add

    • Many early Baptists were calvinistic.

    • I’m ok if some modern ones are not .. that’s your business

    • But to ignore the calvinism of early Baptists is just plain ignorance of Baptist history
  • I …. as in interdependent! We need more of this “I” *and less of the other “I” without falling into denominationalism and conventionism

  • Fundamentalism … the term has been hijacked. The historic ideas are valid.
* The wild excesses of Fred Phelps, book burnings, Steve Anderson, etc are examples of a CAPITAL I INDEPENDENT

In my view a major weakness of “Independent” is seen in the chaos of modern Baptist missions:

  • Missionary candidates have to be major PR people. I seen nothing from the book of Acts that would hint of raising support for 3-5 years before going to the field.

  • There seems to be a multiplication of mission agencies and ministry non-profits to match various personalities and their views of missions.

  • I have a friend who is a missionary to Thailand with the IMB (S/B). This man is a solid guy. But he does not have the personality to raise support. He is effective in the field.

Bob T, your stimulating post had me thinking long into the night. Jay, the default version comment was timely. Others’ posts too.

I like our pastor’s view. He says that we will not fight over translations. No one does. We have alums from most all the schools mentioned above. We get along very well. Who said, “In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things charity”?

Just as I do not care if fellow church members sit or kneel in their prayer closets, neither am I curious which side of the translation “war” or divide they happen to fall on. This comes under personal convictions not essential salvation doctrines. In this lost, confused, hurting, bleeding world do we not have bigger fish to fry?

[FredK] Bob T, your stimulating post had me thinking long into the night. Jay, the default version comment was timely. Others’ posts too.

I like our pastor’s view. He says that we will not fight over translations. No one does. We have alums from most all the schools mentioned above. We get along very well. Who said, “In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things charity”?

Just as I do not care if fellow church members sit or kneel in their prayer closets, neither am I curious which side of the translation “war” or divide they happen to fall on. This comes under personal convictions not essential salvation doctrines. In this lost, confused, hurting, bleeding world do we not have bigger fish to fry?
I agree that it is not of much concern whether one sits or kneels in their prayer closets. I also am not concerned if Christians eat Broccoli or Beets. However, the way we determine what is the word of God and how His inspired word was given and transmitted to us, is of grave concern to me. If you will read the Ethos statement of Central Baptist Seminary on Fundamentalism and Evangelicals you will see that they consider those who hold to the KJVO view as dangerous to Christianity. This is also the opinion of those at Detroit Baptist Seminary based on statements by their President. The doctrine of Bibliology is foundational to the Christian faith. An erroneous view that takes the correct Biblical view of what the Bible states about itself and then adds to that an exclusive view based on myth and speculation, without a scriptural basis, is indeed dangerous and also brings scorn upon the Christian faith. This is an essential truth not just personal convictions. Please take time to read some of the posts on the SI thread on the Ethos statement of Central Seminary.. Also, please educate yourself. I recommend the book “King James Onlyism The new Sect,” by James Price. There is also a less technical but clear book titled “One Bible Only’ ” edited by Bauder and Beecham and written by the faculty of Central Baptist Seminary.

I hope you understand that the KJVO position is not just the KJVP (preferred) position whereby one merely prefers the KJV over other translations. The KJVO position views the KJV as the only acceptable translation and as the preserved word of God for the English speaking people. All other translations are viewed as corrupt and with unacceptable errors.

May God bless and guide you as you seek to live for Him

Dr. Richard Clearwaters stated often that the reason liberalism and its denials of biblical truth were able to take over denominations was because many who did not agree with them were indifferent to the danger and would not stand for truth. The compromisers let those they did not agree with take over as they did not want disunity or be unloving.

Compromisers who fail to discern and take a stand for truth are always with us and often a bigger problem than those who advocate truth not biblical and that is dangerous.

Bob T., I’m just going to let you guest write for me in the future - at least on this topic! :)

Couple of things that I’m thankful for:


  1. We are independent. This means that we aren’t dependent upon anyone else (other than church members) in order to keep our ‘business’ side of churches, schools, etc going. I’m thinking mainly of people who were trapped in denominations and had to choose between their beliefs or their pensions at the age of 60.

  2. A higher understanding of the ‘priesthood of the believer’ rather than the ruling bishop, pope, synod, or whatever to push down doctrines for subscription by the masses.

  3. The fact that separation is very much alive and a part of the ethos of our movement rather than mindless ‘going along with’ whatever the world / false religious systems put out. Is it overdone and/or done poorly? Yes…but as someone who is fighting the battle of transformation, not conformation with friends in my current church (had a long discussion with a dear friend on Sunday), I’ll keep separation right now (and practice it imperfectly), thank you! I’ll even keep the right to stop fellowshipping with people I disagree with!

  4. A (semi-)clear understanding of what doctrines are Fundamental (Virgin birth) and which are not so critical (dispensationalism).

  5. Generally, a desire to make people research and study the Scriptures, as opposed to just having some kind of outside factor serve as an a barometer of their ‘godliness’.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

I’ve got an interesting tape of a message I heard years ago by two of Jerry Falwell’s staffers. One point made was that America is the only nation that has this F and CE divide. It is an American phenomenia. In other nations they just have (conservative) churches. (The exception would seem to be where U.S. or other missionaries have taken in their church traditions and convictions). Should that not humble us, give IFB more appreciation for the larger, universal, diverse, regenerate, Body of Christ?

This unusual message compared the characteristics of F and Evngl. This chapel talk was based on the book they wrote, FUNDAMENTALIST PHENOMENIA by Ed Hindson, et al.

Peace and joy!

My dear FredK: The following is based on a talk given by a Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist historian on the 150th anniversary of the first Russian to be Biblically baptized.

The brother stated Baptists around the world are divided into roughly three by history and culture.

  • Continental\German: Comes from the Anabaptists in the Germanies. It is not to be confused with our other Continental cousins: the Mennonites, Hutterites, et al.
  • Anglo-American: This is the largest of the three in geographic spread thanks to the missionary efforts of British and American missionaries over the last 200 plus years.
  • Slavic (aka Evangelical Christian-Baptists): This group’s home territory is Russia and Ukraine. Though, thanks to the Czarist and Communist Empires, it spread across the Empire from Moldova to Vladivostok.
The Continentals did not develop the split as the Anglo-Americans. However, the EC-B did split in the mid 60s. It occurred between the official registered body and what became known as the underground body over the control of the State in local church matters.

Putting aside international matters, as a Historic Northern Baptist, I identify myself as a Fundamentalist. It’s good to remember ecclesiastical separation is a Baptist distinctive. Just take a look at our Primitive and Old Regular Baptist brethren.

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

Thanks Jay. We need to remember to be thankful. Your comment on godliness reminds of what a CE friend say to me one time: “you F live in 3 rooms of a 5 room house but you have godliness.” I appreciated that! -took it as a complement. :)

Peace and joy

[FredK] Bob T, your stimulating post had me thinking long into the night. Jay, the default version comment was timely. Others’ posts too.

I like our pastor’s view. He says that we will not fight over translations. No one does. We have alums from most all the schools mentioned above. We get along very well. Who said, “In essentials unity, in nonessentials liberty, in all things charity”?
Your quote points out what I have contended for a long, long time…that most of the “second generation ‘kjv-onlyers’ aren’t really as devout as their pastors were”. If they were, then the people in the church couldn’t just “get along” because they would consider that a basic ‘fundamental of the faith’ was threatened. By the very fact that they can all ‘get along’ in this church (Fred’s) means that for at least those grads of those schools, it really isn’t “that important”.

We have an interesting thing here where the daughter of a pastor—definitely NOT a KJVonly person— married the son of a KJVonly (can you imagine that as a missionary being KJV only—yep) person. I contend that for neither of them are their differences that important. When I hear and see things like this, I can only assume that the very firmly held beliefs of the parents (and pastors) aren’t held quite so dear to the heart of the children/congregation. How could you marry someone if you believed in your heart that the very foundation they used in their daily life was somehow “evil” or “corrupt”? Somewhere along the line, the beliefs have been relegated to a non-essential.

I think that we shine in several areas:

As others have pointed out:

1. Bible literacy

2. Scripture memory

3. teaching faithfulness/consistency

I’m sure most of this depends on which branch of IFB fundamentalism you are talking about, but when I see how little Bible the Catholics know after 12+ years of “religious education” in school, I’m grateful for how much BIBLE we were taught in Sunday School and Awana through the years.

Yes. I see those three strengths you list. In fact, just as the Jews were used of God to preserve the Scriptures in the past, I wonder if God is going to use us slow to change F to preserve the doctrinal essentials today? As many E go further astray - compromising essential salvation doctrines in the name of “love,” who remains - F and CE.?