Health Insurance for Pastors

My church does not believe in insurance.

The pastor pays for his health care needs in cash.

You failed to mention this option.

Pastor Jung

[DJung] My church does not believe in insurance.

so what happens when something really expensive happens? has the church committed to bailing the pastor out? it seems strange to choose not to even have catastrophic insurance.

[DJung] My church does not believe in insurance.

The pastor pays for his health care needs in cash.

You failed to mention this option.

Pastor Jung

That’s quite a blanket statement. Do you drive a vehicle, have a mortgage, have liability insurance on your business or church facilities?

I would have lost everything I have if it were not for health insurance. Having been through catastrophic illness, I know the value of insurance. My 20% co-pays on transplant medicines alone run three to five hundred dollars a month.

In answer to Ron’s question, we have insurance through private employment.

[DJung] My church does not believe in insurance.

The pastor pays for his health care needs in cash.

You failed to mention this option.

Pastor Jung

Is there consistency in this “conviction”? Does the church have a problem with life insurance, homeowners, auto, disability, liability (for the church), property (for the church)….? If so, how about state-mandated insurance. For example, in Illinois, you cannot drive a car if it’s not insured. Should that law be ignored because “I have a conviction against insurance” and “we ought to obey God rather than men!”? Interesting how the “conviction” against insurance applies only to health. Wonder why that is? And how will this “anti-health insurance conviction” be applied if Obama & Co. succeed in mandating health insurance?

In my situation, the church is small, so a group plan is not an option; therefore, I shop for a plan, the church pays for it as part of my benefit pkg. It’s a high-deductible, MSA-compatible policy.

[DJung] My church does not believe in insurance.

The pastor pays for his health care needs in cash.

You failed to mention this option.

Pastor Jung

Maybe because it’s not really considered a viable option for most of us? IMHO, going without health insurance invites bankruptcy.

FWIW, my employer provides health insurance - the church couldn’t possibly hope to pay for it; it’s way too small.

The insurance decision (all types not just health insurance) is basically a risk and regulatory decision.

Regulatory: Does the law mandate it? (Eg. Liability insurance for drivers. Required by law (of course we know that many evade that law and hence there is a a product called “uninsured motorists insurance” (you pay for your own risk plus the risk of someone who should have insurance NOT having insurance)

Risk: Examples:

• I own my home with the Mortgage company. The mortgage company requires that I have homeowner’s insurance to protect their interests.
  
  
• Take the homeowner who owns his home outright. There is no regulatory requirement for insurance and their is no mortgage company requiring it. The homeowner asks the question: “if my home were destroyed what are my financial resources to replace?

I don’t want to get too off topic. But as a chaplain of the Fire Dept, one thing really bugs me. It’s people who could not “afford” renters insurance. I live in a parsonage, so I have renter’s insurance. It cost me about $8 a month for $40,000 content coverage. So if you go to McDonald’s once a month you can afford it. I think most just assume they cannont afford it. Ok, back to topic… :)

[rogercarlson] I don’t want to get too off topic. But as a chaplain of the Fire Dept, one thing really bugs me. It’s people who could not “afford” renters insurance. I live in a parsonage, so I have renter’s insurance. It cost me about $8 a month for $40,000 content coverage. So if you go to McDonald’s once a month you can afford it. I think most just assume they cannont afford it. Ok, back to topic… :)

Not a firefighter, but we also have renter’s insurance, and while I hate paying the bill, it’s worth it to know that if I lose everything, we’ll have a check to start rebuilding again, including my library, the piano, and the small but growing music collection. Now I just need to inventory all the house stuff…

It’s cheap peace of mind.

So if you go to McDonald’s once a month you can afford it.

Why? Is McDonald’s giving out money to pay renter’s insurance?

[Larry]

So if you go to McDonald’s once a month you can afford it.

Why? Is McDonald’s giving out money to pay renter’s insurance?

No, but at the rate Obama’s going, the US Govn’t might…. :(

Sorry for being confusing Larry. If you can afford to eat out at MCD once a month that is way more than the cost of a good renter’s policy. Ron, the problem you had would be similar to those with homeowners in a hurricane are too.

Sorry for being confusing Larry. If you can afford to eat out at MCD once a month that is way more than the cost of a good renter’s policy.

I know what you meant. Just adding to the silliness.

I have been intrigued by the two groups - Samaritan Ministries and Medi-Share. I have had thoughts of dropping my insurance and joining one of those two, but have not been confident enough to do so. Have any of you used either of these, and what do you think of them?

[Gabe Franklin] I have been intrigued by the two groups - Samaritan Ministries and Medi-Share. I have had thoughts of dropping my insurance and joining one of those two, but have not been confident enough to do so. Have any of you used either of these, and what do you think of them?

I’d be very careful & examine thoroughly the companies, their requirements, their “health,” and their standing in your state. When shopping for health insurance, I considered Samaritan, but found the regulations cumbersome and too much of a hassle, esp. considering that the premiums weren’t a great deal less than what I’m paying for my MSA-compatible plan. I don’t remember the specifics of those requirements, but they are spelled out on their website, I believe. Medi-Share ran into trouble in Illinois & was prohibited from writing, at least for a time. The counsel I received was to beware of anything not really “insurance” because if either of those companies run into trouble, & you’ve had some medical issue while with them, you’d be sunk trying to get conventional insurance coverage. As it turns out, that was good advice. I considered Medi-Share 5+ years ago, and a couple years later, they were banned from Illinois.

I’m not trying to express any sort of expert opinion on either company. Just sharing my thoughts based on my limited experience.

By the way, another good possibility is purchasing a high-deductible, major-medical plan (premiums are relatively inexpensive), and then set up a Medical Savings Account. Our church budgeted $550/mo. for medical coverage. I divided those funds between insurance premium ($390) and MSA ($160). The MSA is tax-free, goes into a savings account that can be used for any kind of medical expense (dental, vision, OTC medications, vitamins, etc. I even used MSA funds for a vaporizer!). Unlike a Flexible Spending plan (where funds must be used within a calendar year or forfeited), all the money put in the MSA keeps accumulating tax-free, with interest, indefinitely. Definitely worth looking into.

I used to use medishare…I don’t now.

[Mike Mann]

[DJung] My church does not believe in insurance.

The pastor pays for his health care needs in cash.

You failed to mention this option.

Pastor Jung

That’s quite a blanket statement. Do you drive a vehicle, have a mortgage, have liability insurance on your business or church facilities?

I would have lost everything I have if it were not for health insurance. Having been through catastrophic illness, I know the value of insurance. My 20% co-pays on transplant medicines alone run three to five hundred dollars a month.

In answer to Ron’s question, we have insurance through private employment.

I do not believe in insurance unless mandated by a government authority or unless it is mandated by some program or bank in order to get a loan.

I do my own actuarial analysis and choose to take the risk that the insurer takes, making the profit by keeping the premium in pocket. In answer to your question about catastrophies, that is part of the risk and life. I know the reigning view is to mitigate risk by insurance and call it prudent. It works for some for others it gives peace of mind, for most it simply makes them poorer financially, more risk adverse, and they end up not using it (the insurance).

I have lost everything in the past. It doesn’t phase me to take on this risk going forward. Just start over work harder and smarter.

There is a reason the insurance companies own so much and so wealthy. Christians especially live in fear and try to mitigate this with insurance. I don’t believe in this strategy.

Pastor Jung

[DJung] I do not believe in insurance unless mandated by a government authority or unless it is mandated by some program or bank in order to get a loan.

I do my own actuarial analysis and choose to take the risk that the insurer takes, making the profit by keeping the premium in pocket….

There is a reason the insurance companies own so much and so wealthy. Christians especially live in fear and try to mitigate this with insurance. I don’t believe in this strategy.

Pastor Jung

I see lots of people who handle their health care this way, or they use high deductible HSAs- which is what my husband and I do. I like it better that way, and we receive huge discounts for paying cash at the doc’s office.

I think one result of this choice is that it makes us very conscious of our lifestyle choices. We eat healthy, exercise, take supplements, and we definitely don’t go to the doctor for every cough and sniffle. The last time one of my kids went to the doctor was because a nail went up into their foot through their shoe(my husband is building The Tree Fort That Ate Beavercreek) and they needed a tetanus booster… that was two years ago.

[DJung]

I do not believe in insurance unless mandated by a government authority or unless it is mandated by some program or bank in order to get a loan.

I do my own actuarial analysis and choose to take the risk that the insurer takes, making the profit by keeping the premium in pocket. In answer to your question about catastrophies, that is part of the risk and life. I know the reigning view is to mitigate risk by insurance and call it prudent. It works for some for others it gives peace of mind, for most it simply makes them poorer financially, more risk adverse, and they end up not using it (the insurance).

I have lost everything in the past. It doesn’t phase me to take on this risk going forward. Just start over work harder and smarter.

There is a reason the insurance companies own so much and so wealthy. Christians especially live in fear and try to mitigate this with insurance. I don’t believe in this strategy.

A Christian having insurance does not imply that he’s living in fear. He is likely being prudent and demonstrating love for his wife, family, the church, and society. I’m grateful that our church hasn’t adopted the “no health insurance ‘conviction.’” If we had, there are 5 families in our small congregation—including the pastor—who would’ve lost everything due to exorbitant, unforseen medical bills, and that’s within the last 7 years. What church could help with more than $250,000 in medical bills out of its benevolence fund? Just start over & work smarter? Tell that to the guy who’s just had emergency by-pass surgery & will never be able to work as hard as he used to. Or the couple whose monthly prescriptions cost more than $1000. That’s a $1000 more they have to work harder & smarter to cover than they had before illness struck. Or the husband who just lost his wife to breast cancer after running up $750,000 in medical bills—yet unpaid. Or worse, the mother of 3 children whose husband just passed away from cancer, leaving her with a mortgage and $400,000 in unpaid medical bills, because I advised him by my example and teaching not to have medical insurance. And of course, there’s no life insurance, either, because it’s not mandated by any authority.

For my part, I don’t want to lead people down that path.

I have lost everything in the past. It doesn’t phase me to take on this risk going forward. Just start over work harder and smarter.

But in so doing, you have stolen from others by incurring bills you never intended to pay. If you had an illness and incurred $100,000 in bills and couldn’t pay it, then you lose everything and start over. But the person you owe the money to doesn’t get paid what he is owed. I think that is very troubling.

Unless you are independently wealthy (and hence self-insured), there doesn’t seem to be a good reason not to have insurance. The Bible teaches us about prudent planning, and insurance is certainly a part of that.

And, BTW, if you start over and work “harder” then you weren’t doing your best to begin with, and were therefore living in sin.

We had Medi-Share in the past and it was a real blessing to our family. It paid for two surgeries that my wife

and I had and several other things.

[JimD] We had Medi-Share in the past and it was a real blessing to our family. It paid for two surgeries that my wife

and I had and several other things.

I am glad you had that experience. I had the opposite one. I would never use them again.

our church’s philosophy is that money/benefits should never be the things that cause pastor/staff to be derailed from ministry. so we use Blue Cross and have a quality policy along with dental insurance. staff pays $100/month. this was in place even when the church first planted with 35-40 adults. it’s just something we have committed to as a body.

[rogercarlson]

[JimD] We had Medi-Share in the past and it was a real blessing to our family. It paid for two surgeries that my wife

and I had and several other things.

I am glad you had that experience. I had the opposite one. I would never use them again.

That’s what I’ve heard from three different people, but it’s second-hand info.

[Larry]

I have lost everything in the past. It doesn’t phase me to take on this risk going forward. Just start over work harder and smarter.

But in so doing, you have stolen from others by incurring bills you never intended to pay. If you had an illness and incurred $100,000 in bills and couldn’t pay it, then you lose everything and start over. But the person you owe the money to doesn’t get paid what he is owed. I think that is very troubling.

Unless you are independently wealthy (and hence self-insured), there doesn’t seem to be a good reason not to have insurance. The Bible teaches us about prudent planning, and insurance is certainly a part of that.

And, BTW, if you start over and work “harder” then you weren’t doing your best to begin with, and were therefore living in sin.

There are many interesting aspects to discuss concerning insurance, risk, personal responsibility and loss. I will only say this here, insurance for the masses is a recent concept. There is no historical evidence of this in Biblical times or up until the late 19th century. If you believe it is prudent to be fully insured with maximum or minimum coverage on your auto, life, health, credit cards, accident, investments (annuities), apartment (renters) there are plenty of people to take your money in return for “coverage”.

DJ

There are many interesting aspects to discuss concerning insurance, risk, personal responsibility and loss. I will only say this here, insurance for the masses is a recent concept. There is no historical evidence of this in Biblical times or up until the late 19th century. If you believe it is prudent to be fully insured with maximum or minimum coverage on your auto, life, health, credit cards, accident, investments (annuities), apartment (renters) there are plenty of people to take your money in return for “coverage”.

It may be recent, but so is a lot of stuff. That doesn’t really answer my question however. When you run up big medical bills, and then declare bankruptcy and start over and work harder and smarter, do you also go back and pay the people for their services that you used?

[DJung] I will only say this here, insurance for the masses is a recent concept. There is no historical evidence of this in Biblical times or up until the late 19th century. If you believe it is prudent to be fully insured with maximum or minimum coverage on your auto, life, health, credit cards, accident, investments (annuities), apartment (renters) there are plenty of people to take your money in return for “coverage”.

Cell phones are even more recent. Does that mean we shouldn’t use them either? How about computers and the Internet?

There are many ways to pay for medical bills. But first we must examine how such bills are “run up”. If some out of control hospital has you stay at $300-$1500 per night and you agree then technically you owe this amount to the hospital. You will either pay or they will write it all off or a portion off because you can’t pay their retail rate. Personally I have learned over the years to be very selective in anything that gets billed. I make sure I can pay the amount that will be billed before I take the service. In the case of an emergency such as an accident one must have cash reserves set aside to responsibly follow this methodology or simply get the trauma center or hospital to reduce the charges after the fact down to a reasonable amount. I have never advocated bankruptcy nor declared bankruptcy. This is a rare solution. Before the recent legislation, bankruptcy by an individual left the hospitals and doctors holding all the bills with no recourse to collect but I think now it’s different and I agree that the medical folks should be able to collect and that individuals cannot be irresponsible and wipe out all debt with bankruptcy.

D Jung

I do not think the majority of insurance is necessary nor good even it is recent, modern and accepted by main-stream society. Like I said though if you want to keep paying for dental, vision, medical, life, auto, accident, investment, mortgage insurance go right ahead they will exchange your risk for your cash and they will get rich while doing it.

If you want to make alot of money buy or start an insurer.

D Jung

[Jay C]

[DJung] My church does not believe in insurance.

The pastor pays for his health care needs in cash.

You failed to mention this option.

Pastor Jung

Maybe because it’s not really considered a viable option for most of us? IMHO, going without health insurance invites bankruptcy.

FWIW, my employer provides health insurance - the church couldn’t possibly hope to pay for it; it’s way too small.

There are two groups of people that have brought this point up in my experience. The first group really can’t afford health insurance or get health insurance because of pre-existing conditions and need an employer that will provide it for them. The path of least resistance to health care then is to look for a job that provides group coverage and pays for it. Think corporate america. There is an alternative but it would require more risk and faith and work. That is to navigate the health medical system and look for an affordable alternative to health insurance. Paying cash for services. Shop shop shop. Free clinics. Samples given to doctors of medication etc etc. etc.

The second group of individuals are upper middle class and can afford all health care costs with few exceptions if they paid in cash however they use the employer benefits for an excuse to stay fully employed and committed to a job that they would not necessary like or stay with or profit the most by if such “carrots” were not perceived as great and necessary. They work for the perks or benefits ignoring the opportunity cost and potential for far greater accomplisment, achievement and earnings by doing something outside of the corporate sphere.

D Jung

[BryanBice]

[DJung]

I do not believe in insurance unless mandated by a government authority or unless it is mandated by some program or bank in order to get a loan.

I do my own actuarial analysis and choose to take the risk that the insurer takes, making the profit by keeping the premium in pocket. In answer to your question about catastrophies, that is part of the risk and life. I know the reigning view is to mitigate risk by insurance and call it prudent. It works for some for others it gives peace of mind, for most it simply makes them poorer financially, more risk adverse, and they end up not using it (the insurance).

I have lost everything in the past. It doesn’t phase me to take on this risk going forward. Just start over work harder and smarter.

There is a reason the insurance companies own so much and so wealthy. Christians especially live in fear and try to mitigate this with insurance. I don’t believe in this strategy.

A Christian having insurance does not imply that he’s living in fear. He is likely being prudent and demonstrating love for his wife, family, the church, and society. I’m grateful that our church hasn’t adopted the “no health insurance ‘conviction.’” If we had, there are 5 families in our small congregation—including the pastor—who would’ve lost everything due to exorbitant, unforseen medical bills, and that’s within the last 7 years. What church could help with more than $250,000 in medical bills out of its benevolence fund? Just start over & work smarter? Tell that to the guy who’s just had emergency by-pass surgery & will never be able to work as hard as he used to. Or the couple whose monthly prescriptions cost more than $1000. That’s a $1000 more they have to work harder & smarter to cover than they had before illness struck. Or the husband who just lost his wife to breast cancer after running up $750,000 in medical bills—yet unpaid. Or worse, the mother of 3 children whose husband just passed away from cancer, leaving her with a mortgage and $400,000 in unpaid medical bills, because I advised him by my example and teaching not to have medical insurance. And of course, there’s no life insurance, either, because it’s not mandated by any authority.

For my part, I don’t want to lead people down that path.

Me thinks you could have a second career in selling heath insurance.

By the way…been there done that and I’ve got the T-shirt…I have sold insurance before! Believe me I tried to sell on love but fear always got the deal closed.

Derek Jung

[DJung] I do not think the majority of insurance is necessary nor good even it is recent, modern and accepted by main-stream society.

Say what you will - but my wife had cancer a few years ago and she developed some mighty high health bills mostly covered by our insurance. We have three children and she would have died probably if we didn’t have the insurance. Having the insurance also helped us still have money to feed, cloth, and house our children during those darker days. Surely God could have revealed a solution without insurance, but I believe that having insurance was Gods way of taking care of the financial end of the situation and it assured me we would not be denied the care she needed.

I should note, my pastor and his wife have health insurance. The pastors wife works a job to gain access to health insurance for her family.