Ever Heard of Ellerslie?
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I saw a link to this website- http://www.ellerslie.com/ and wondered if anyone here ever heard of it, had experience with it…? Is it a program you would recommend?
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and that’s all this is, 2 cents …
I read Leslie’s Authentic Beauty a few years back, and it is an excellent book for any woman of any age. It’s very good, very grounded.
I really raised an eyebrow at Alex’s reaction to their website, and I really think he is probably reading way too much into it that isn’t there, but …
it’s a public forum, and we can all have our own views.
maybe alex should read at least one of his books?
I read Leslie’s Authentic Beauty a few years back, and it is an excellent book for any woman of any age. It’s very good, very grounded.
I really raised an eyebrow at Alex’s reaction to their website, and I really think he is probably reading way too much into it that isn’t there, but …
it’s a public forum, and we can all have our own views.
maybe alex should read at least one of his books?
And maybe…Alex has :) …and possibly more than one.
Anne,
I have hours of Ludy’s teaching on MP3. I have listened rather thoroughly along with reading his material.
I have hours of Ludy’s teaching on MP3. I have listened rather thoroughly along with reading his material.
Great to see the questions and the speculations on what Ellerslie is. Susan, Ellerslie is a model school worth taking time to examine. When I say examine, I dont mean only the means of electronic world. I feel like some in the discussion are like the old midieval days where the philosophers asked how many teeth are in the horse’s mouth without looking first to count. Well, I have visited Ellerslie and second, have sent my two oldest sons (at their choosing!). It could not have been a better choice for many reasons. They have learned life lessons very well and have fallen in love with Scripture in a new and fresh way. My background? Master of Divinity and Bible College degree and have been in administration and have taught in Christan Colleges and Graduate schools. (big deal to most people, but hopefully it at least says I have done my homework). Eric Ludy is the real deal and like anyone in leadership he will get accused without good foundation. As far as the monestary or monastic life, it is not that way. I have been to a trapist monestary for a real monastic experience and Ellerslie is not even close. An old fashioned method of debunking something is to create a strawman like some have done in this forum and then destroy it. Well, back to reality. Ellerslie has taught my two oldest Joshua and Aaron some great spiritual disciplines. we started them at home and Ellerslie comes along side us and does a good job at pointing them to great things. Yes, in these past weeks they have had one day where they prayed for 21 hours as a student body with one meal interruption. Well, it was not planned by any person, it was truly Spirit led and inspired. People were changed, delivered, and set free from some difficult areas and the fruit continues. Love the discussion Alex, and Charlie and the others. Take the pot shots but there is nothing like reality to measure your statements. I testify that it is not a cult. Far from it. It is building character that we could only desire some church people would posess. I highly recommend the Ellerslie experience to every parent. Parents who visit are not disappointed. All leave asking how they can get others to come visit. The girls are honored by the men in ways they never have experienced and the men are taught to honor the girls in ways they will never forget. Very positive. here is my risk. my email is brucekinabrew@hotmail.com if you want more one on one discussion. I will discuss here as well. Take your best shot. Make it informed and you will do better.
Bruce Kinabrew
When it comes down to it, two things make a cult:
1) Unbibical doctrine
2) Unbiblical practice… usually of a particular sort. There are various and sundry “marks” of a cult that have to do with authoritarianism, a very closed community, indoctrination by means of physical rigor/”brainwashing,” etc.
So to make things simple, what is Ellerslie’s doctrine. If it’s orthodox, folks have a pretty tough task making a case that it’s a cult. Haven’t seen a cult yet that was doctrinally sound. So that would be the simplest way to answer that question.
Bruce, one expression in your post that caught my eye was in reference to this 21 hour day of prayer & fasting being “inspired.” What do you believe and what does Ellerslie believe about the Holy Spirit? What does “inspiration” mean to you?
1) Unbibical doctrine
2) Unbiblical practice… usually of a particular sort. There are various and sundry “marks” of a cult that have to do with authoritarianism, a very closed community, indoctrination by means of physical rigor/”brainwashing,” etc.
So to make things simple, what is Ellerslie’s doctrine. If it’s orthodox, folks have a pretty tough task making a case that it’s a cult. Haven’t seen a cult yet that was doctrinally sound. So that would be the simplest way to answer that question.
Bruce, one expression in your post that caught my eye was in reference to this 21 hour day of prayer & fasting being “inspired.” What do you believe and what does Ellerslie believe about the Holy Spirit? What does “inspiration” mean to you?
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Brucekinabrew] Ellerslie is a model school worth taking time to examine. When I say examine, I dont mean only the means of electronic world. I feel like some in the discussion are like the old midieval days where the philosophers asked how many teeth are in the horse’s mouth without looking first to countWell when horses write books, give interviews and make available hours upon hours taped lessons about their thoughts regarding their magnificent teeth (and any and all other ideas) which include documentation of views about themselves that reflect a strain of megalomania in delusions of grandeur with which indeed that horse is comfortable publishing, well I believe that I’ve seen quite a bit of the horse by way of his own explanation to determine that there are some red flags.
But even at this moment, when Eric Ludy makes imprudent statements such as http://www.ellerslie.com/Taste_of_Ellerslie_Training.html Taste of Ellerslie Training :
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is manly…When the manly stuff is brought back to the Church, it causes a sharp discomfort to the human soul.I have absolutely no qualms about pointing to this as one of the many obvious examples of imbalance in his teaching. The gospel has nothing to do with gender value regarding its potency. It’s potency is far beyond masculinity, its power is divine. And any discomfort that is caused has nothing to do with introducing anything manly, it has to do with the work of the divine, both in word and in person. For the sake of everything sound, statements like these come from an apprentice, not a teacher. Unfortunately this kind of naivety is far too often present in Ludy’s communications.
[Brucekinabrew] Eric Ludy is the real deal and like anyone in leadership he will get accused without good foundationFeel free to address all of the points I have already documented such as his delusions of grandeur as a little Martin Luther, an agent of change for the planet as a teenager and now as an adult with his imagined role as the illuminate for his followers. The quotes are all documented. Feel free to explain these away. Coincidentally, while Eric is found to have held grandiose view as a kid:
http://harvesthousepublishers.com/books_nonfictioninterview.cfm?ID=73
I was the above–average kid …who thought that I was God’s agent of change on planet earth.His wife, Leslie writes about herself at age 7:
http://www.ellerslie.com/Why_Ellerslie.html
When I was seven, I wrote these words in my journal: “Someday, I want to become a world-changer!”Rather interesting and coincidental they shared almost identical views of themselves growing up.
[Brucekinabrew] these past weeks they have had one day where they prayed for 21 hours as a student body with one meal interruption. Well, it was not planned by any person, it was truly Spirit led and inspired. People were changed, delivered, and set free from some difficult areas and the fruit continuesYour account is written as one with first hand knowledge and not as a visitor seeing this reference is to “these past weeks”. Now it might be that your sons told you about this but then that would make it second hand knowledge, no better than anyone else reading anyone else’s account.
[Brucekinabrew] Love the discussion Alex, and Charlie and the others. Take the pot shots but there is nothing like reality to measure your statements. I testify that it is not a cultNo one said it was a cult. I do believe, as documented earlier and as stated earlier in my investigation:
I see, CULT principles scattered throughoutBut I do not recall specifically saying, “it is a cult”. As to the comments not being measured, in fact they are thoroughly documented. But here I can only speak for myself.
[Brucekinabrew] The girls are honored by the men in ways they never have experienced and the men are taught to honor the girls in ways they will never forget… I will discuss here as well. Take your best shot. Make it informed and you will do better.It has been informed, apparently you are choosing to ignore all of the points and their documentation. As to the experience of being respected, people get that in many places, that does not validate an organization or the rest of its practices and it certainly doesn’t indicate a single thing about doctrinal orthodoxy.
But I will tell you, Bruce, I am not unfamiliar with people protesting the existence of any rebuttal or argument that contains the slightest objection to something they hold dear. I encounter it often. Instead of addressing the merits of someone’s objections they posture with complaints about the very existence of objections and then questions motives or simply become indiscriminate and state the objections have no merit when they even willing to even deal with the objections and point out any place they believe they are invalid. Believe me you aren’t the first, I encounter this regularly.
I am interested, though, in your responses to Aaron’s questions.
Alex, if you have so much info about Ellerslie, why don’t you briefly answer these questions and tell us where the answers are documented?
[Aaron]This is really all we need. You’re posting a lot of generalities but they don’t help third parties who like to get to facts and evaluate them carefully.
1) Unbibical doctrine
2) Unbiblical practice… usually of a particular sort. There are various and sundry “marks” of a cult that have to do with authoritarianism, a very closed community, indoctrination by means of physical rigor/”brainwashing,” etc.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer] Alex, if you have so much info about Ellerslie, why don’t you briefly answer these questions and tell us where the answers are documented?Aaron, as was discussed before and a second time and now a third, until you are willing to take the time to read the comprehensive posts that provide links for all of my sources (including the most recent one) you are only going to remain frustrated in the matter. I have posted links and have as well cut and pasted some material to make it readily available in those arguments from months ago.
However, let’s say you simply want to excuse yourself from having to read my arguments for whatever reason. Repeatedly the link to Ellerslie has been posted, never minding the link to the sources I used so it is not “me” that has so much information about Ellerslie, it is right there at Ellerslie for you to discover yourself.
Fair enough. But if you want to be persuasive to the 99.9% who do not want to wade through all that, you could summarize.
False doctrine A… link
False doctrine B… link
False doctrine C… link
The brief but factual summary is a powerful tool of persuasion. I don’t personally care about Ellerslie one way or the other. Never heard of them before. But I remain unconvinced that they are a cult because I have not seen the facts that would support that conclusion. And I did peruse their website.
(The vast majority of real cults deny the deity of Christ and assert a works-system in order to gain heaven—or whatever their version of the desirable afterlife is—then throw in a secretive authoritarian methodology. But the latter by itself does not a cult make.)
False doctrine A… link
False doctrine B… link
False doctrine C… link
The brief but factual summary is a powerful tool of persuasion. I don’t personally care about Ellerslie one way or the other. Never heard of them before. But I remain unconvinced that they are a cult because I have not seen the facts that would support that conclusion. And I did peruse their website.
(The vast majority of real cults deny the deity of Christ and assert a works-system in order to gain heaven—or whatever their version of the desirable afterlife is—then throw in a secretive authoritarian methodology. But the latter by itself does not a cult make.)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I also think of personality driven or “We have THE secret” groups as having a cult-ish nature. IOW, ‘if you don’t do it our way, your spirituality won’t be as real or strong as what ours is’. Or when loyalty to a certain person and their teachings is presented in a way that you feel it’s as important as loyalty to Christ and Scripture. They may not be immersed in false doctrine, but they are in the same neighborhood.
OK, I got curious… did some more poking around. Here’s the doctrinal statement.
1. The statement on salvation is weak. It speaks of “cleansing” through repentance and faith and says regeneration is necessary, but it does not say that regeneration comes through faith alone or refer to justification.
Compare SI’s own more brief yet more theologically comprehensive statement:
2. Views on the Holy Spirit. There seems to be a Keswick view of sanctification in the reference to “fully in-filling of the Holy Spirit” as well as the emphasis on Hudson Taylor and Amy Carmichael elsewhere on the site. I would not be surprised to find many “second blessing” ideas in their doctrine of the Spirit.
But believing in Keswick-esque sanctification/second blessing holiness is not a heresy (though I do believe it be a non-trivial error). The ambiguity in the salvation statement is of far greater concern.
Still, by looking at their doctrines, I’d have to say that if Ellerslie is a cult it’s the first in history to get so close to orthodoxy. No others have even gotten in the ballpark. The third bullet point (on Christ) all by itself makes the cult charge a very tough sell!
Our Statement of FaithTwo things concern me here…
- We believe the Bible is the inspired and infallible and authoritative Word of God. (II Timothy 3:15 -16)
- We believe there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. (Deut. 6:4; Matthew 29:19; Mark 12:29; John 5:17-30)
- We believe in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal future return to the earth in power and glory to rule over the nations. (Isaiah 7:14; Hebrews 7:26; Acts 2:22; I Corinthians 15:3; Acts 1:9-11)
- We believe man was created good and upright, but fell from that place of perfection into a condition of spiritual depravity. (Genesis 1:26-27; 2:17; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 5:12-19)
- We believe the only means of our being cleansed from sin is through repentance and through faith in the precious blood of Christ. Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential for personal salvation. (Luke 24:47; Romans 8:16; 10:13-15; Titus 2:11; 3:5-7)
- We believe the Scriptures teach a life of holiness. Sanctification is a separation from that which is evil and a dedication unto God. We believe all believers should earnestly pursue sanctification by walking in obedience to God’s Word. We further believe that the Christian is able to live a godly life by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Hebrews 12:14; I Peter 1:15-16; Philippians 2:12-13)
- While we do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are in operation today, we believe that the main evidence of a fuller in-filling of the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit in a believer’s life (Galatians 5:22-23)
- We believe that Christ’s death on the cross provides healing for the human body, in answer to believing prayer, if and when it is in the sovereign will of God for that person. (Isaiah 53:4,5; Matthew 8:16,17; James 5:14-16)
- We believe in the second coming of Christ with His saints to rule and reign on the earth for a thousand years. (Zechariah 14:5; Matthew 24:27, 30; Revelation 19:20; 20:11-15; 21:8)
1. The statement on salvation is weak. It speaks of “cleansing” through repentance and faith and says regeneration is necessary, but it does not say that regeneration comes through faith alone or refer to justification.
Compare SI’s own more brief yet more theologically comprehensive statement:
Salvation, the effect of regeneration by the Spirit and the Word, not by works, but by grace through faith.I would be more confident of Ellerslie if I could see an emphasis on grace alone through faith alone at the website.
2. Views on the Holy Spirit. There seems to be a Keswick view of sanctification in the reference to “fully in-filling of the Holy Spirit” as well as the emphasis on Hudson Taylor and Amy Carmichael elsewhere on the site. I would not be surprised to find many “second blessing” ideas in their doctrine of the Spirit.
But believing in Keswick-esque sanctification/second blessing holiness is not a heresy (though I do believe it be a non-trivial error). The ambiguity in the salvation statement is of far greater concern.
Still, by looking at their doctrines, I’d have to say that if Ellerslie is a cult it’s the first in history to get so close to orthodoxy. No others have even gotten in the ballpark. The third bullet point (on Christ) all by itself makes the cult charge a very tough sell!
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
There is more further down the page…. an expanded doctrinal statement.
Here’s the expansion on “the gospel.”
I suppose the “is it a cult?” question is ultimately not helpful because it all comes down to your idea of what a cult is. Might be better to be more precise. What is doctrinally good, doctrinally cause for concern? What is good or questionable in methodology and emphasis? But as far as terminology and labeling goes, does the group deserve to be lumped in with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism and the Moonies? I think not!
Here’s the expansion on “the gospel.”
1)The Sentence of Death RemovedPretty sound, though they seem to have a fondness for novel language, which can get you into trouble. The church has developed certain patterns in articulating the faith for a reason: in answering the various attacks on the faith over the millennia.
Man is imprisoned in his sin – unable to escape the control of sin, the earthly effects of sin, and the eternal penalty of sin. However, the Good News of God is that the triumvirate of sin’s effect has been canceled through the work of the Messiah, Jesus Christ – the wrath of God has been absorbed by the stricken Son of God – divine justice has been served, sin has been condemned in the flesh. Thusly, the guilty rebels of earth (you and me), if we would only accept this act of divine intervention with faith, have the privilege of legal justification before the bar of Heaven. We can be forgiven of our rebellion, self-will, and lifelong resistance to His rule and reign. Such justification and forgiveness, when accepted through faith, creates a way into the very Presence and Eternal Life of God. The guilty conscience of man can be swept clean and filled with unspeakable joy, and the condemnation of Hell that hangs justly over the souls of every human can be wholly removed and replaced with hope of life ever after with God.
I suppose the “is it a cult?” question is ultimately not helpful because it all comes down to your idea of what a cult is. Might be better to be more precise. What is doctrinally good, doctrinally cause for concern? What is good or questionable in methodology and emphasis? But as far as terminology and labeling goes, does the group deserve to be lumped in with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism and the Moonies? I think not!
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer] Fair enough. But if you want to be persuasive to the 99.9% who do not want to wade through all that, you could summarize.I don’t know what 99.9% that it is to which you are referring seeing that everyone that has approached me here with the exception of yourself has read through my posts and responded.
False doctrine A… link
False doctrine B… link
False doctrine C… link
As to the view of the use of cult principles, I did not necessarily point to, in an exclusive manner nor do I view it as an a sole criterion, the stated doctrinal beliefs of a group to establish whether or not they are employing a few or many cult principles. There are bodies within Christianity that will present a statement of beliefs that articulate orthodox doctrine but use some principles of cults in their administration. And here I believe one example of that is what was pointed to in a post above concerning personality and elevated views of their organization with the rest of Christianity. And to example that, Ludy has stated that he believes the:
http://www.harvesthousepublishers.com/books_nonfictioninterview.cfm?id=…
The church as we once knew it, the one founded solely on the Word of God, is almost extinctNow I will tell you that when he stated this he was also comparing it to the rise of the Emergent church but regardless, his view still is that the church founded solely on the Word of God is almost extinct. His wholesale categorization is too conveniently at the service of his own endeavors. Such exaggerations, which consequent elevately one’s position to such a premium, historically leads to an eventual greater isolation and rejection of valid Christian experiences and expression, hence the formation of a very exclusive group. Let me be clear, again, I have not said this is a cult, only that I have identified some such principles. If someone can find a quote and cite its location so I may view it where I stated explicitly that it is a cult I will retract it and apologize. But my view that I identify cult principles remains.
Aaron, I think you’re defining the word “cult” in a doctrinal sense as a heterodox spin-off from Christianity. Alex is using a sociological definition which does not discriminate by doctrine but by organization and attitude. So, I think you’ve missed the point of what he’s saying. It’s a place organized by a charismatic leader that draws in impressionable young people by promising them a fast-track to serving Jesus. While there, they are subjected to a tightly-regimented lifestyle including high-intensity spiritual exercises. They are isolated from external contact and told that submission to authority is an integral part of their training. I think that a non-Christian (neutral) sociologist taking a look at Ellerslie would raise a few eyebrows. The theologian in me sees red flags everywhere. The “Why Ellerslie” page reeks of gnosticism (used loosely).
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
Oh yeah, there are problems. No doubt about that. Whole thing looks Gothardish to me. (And I do have a cynical side that giving me all kinds of “too good to be true” signals when reading some of the documents at the site. My cynic-signals are often nothing more than cynicism, though.)
I would not accept the “neutrality” of a non-Christian sociologist, but I do think I see your point, Charlie. The sociological definition of cult is just not one that’s important to me from a biblical standpoint. I probably attended a couple of churches growing up they would consider cults… and got “brainwashed.”
Sounds increasingly to me like my only hangup is use of the word “cult” or “cult-like,” and, given the elasticity of the definition, I no longer think I can begrudge anyone their use of these terms. I just prefer to use them more more narrowly and describe the various problems more specifically. To each his own I guess.
I would not accept the “neutrality” of a non-Christian sociologist, but I do think I see your point, Charlie. The sociological definition of cult is just not one that’s important to me from a biblical standpoint. I probably attended a couple of churches growing up they would consider cults… and got “brainwashed.”
Sounds increasingly to me like my only hangup is use of the word “cult” or “cult-like,” and, given the elasticity of the definition, I no longer think I can begrudge anyone their use of these terms. I just prefer to use them more more narrowly and describe the various problems more specifically. To each his own I guess.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Hi, my name is Josh, and I’m an Ellerslie Student right now. I’m sitting on campus as I’m writing this to you. On http://ellersliestudents.com/Students_Summer_2010.html i’m the 13th one down.
You all are arguing about something you know nothing about. Why not ask someone who actually knows?
Here are a few prerequisites:
1. Your answer must not attack a person, rather, let it attack a theology.
2. When you attack something, provide Bible verses to support your point of view. My mind is very much open from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21
So, ask away! Heres your chance to ask someone who is actually going through the training right now.
You all are arguing about something you know nothing about. Why not ask someone who actually knows?
Here are a few prerequisites:
1. Your answer must not attack a person, rather, let it attack a theology.
2. When you attack something, provide Bible verses to support your point of view. My mind is very much open from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21
So, ask away! Heres your chance to ask someone who is actually going through the training right now.
Here are some areas in which I believe you are mischaracterizing this thread-
1) No one is arguing- do not mistake a discussion with differing points of view as an argument.
2) Several posts reference concerns published on the Ellerslie website. Please read the thread and address those first.
3) No one has ‘attacked’ anyone either.
4) It is inaccurate to say the people ‘know nothing’ about Ellerslie or its leadership- you have no way of ascertaining who knows what and to what degree.
Thanks. Answer away!
1) No one is arguing- do not mistake a discussion with differing points of view as an argument.
2) Several posts reference concerns published on the Ellerslie website. Please read the thread and address those first.
3) No one has ‘attacked’ anyone either.
4) It is inaccurate to say the people ‘know nothing’ about Ellerslie or its leadership- you have no way of ascertaining who knows what and to what degree.
Thanks. Answer away!
Susan -
1. You and I must define argument differently. There have been heated discussions above. I define that as an argument rather than a simple discussion. I’m not going to discuss anymore on this point, just know that I have a different definition of argument than you.
2. I’m not going to address those. If anyone wants me to address those they will bring them up with the appropriate Bible verse that they contradict. Like I said, I’m not going to discuss things that aren’t backed by the Bible. If you wish to bring them up with the appropriate BIble verse they contradict, go right ahead!
3. I’m preventing it. Thats the only reason I brought it up.
4. I disagree. Is there anyone in this thread who has personally spent 10 weeks with Eric Ludy and his staff? If not, then they must remain silent and let those who have spent that amount of time with them (i.e. me) speak with authority. . This is the first class of Ellerslie. No one on this thread knows more than I do about this first class at Ellerslie, and Ellerslie in general. Anyone who does, please speak. Otherwise, I will assume that I have authority on this matter.
Lets get down to the questions! I’m eager to see how Ellerslie differs from the Bible in any way.
1. You and I must define argument differently. There have been heated discussions above. I define that as an argument rather than a simple discussion. I’m not going to discuss anymore on this point, just know that I have a different definition of argument than you.
2. I’m not going to address those. If anyone wants me to address those they will bring them up with the appropriate Bible verse that they contradict. Like I said, I’m not going to discuss things that aren’t backed by the Bible. If you wish to bring them up with the appropriate BIble verse they contradict, go right ahead!
3. I’m preventing it. Thats the only reason I brought it up.
4. I disagree. Is there anyone in this thread who has personally spent 10 weeks with Eric Ludy and his staff? If not, then they must remain silent and let those who have spent that amount of time with them (i.e. me) speak with authority. . This is the first class of Ellerslie. No one on this thread knows more than I do about this first class at Ellerslie, and Ellerslie in general. Anyone who does, please speak. Otherwise, I will assume that I have authority on this matter.
Lets get down to the questions! I’m eager to see how Ellerslie differs from the Bible in any way.
4. I disagree. Is there anyone in this thread who has personally spent 10 weeks with Eric Ludy and his staff? If not, then they must remain silent and let those who have spent that amount of time with them (i.e. me) speak with authority. . This is the first class of Ellerslie. No one on this thread knows more than I do about this first class at Ellerslie, and Ellerslie in general. Anyone who does, please speak. Otherwise, I will assume that I have authority on this matter.So either we spend 10 weeks there or we know “nothing”? Surely there is something between “ten weeks” and “zero.”
On to verse-backed questions.
Ephesians 2:8-9 … why doesn’t the doctrinal statement on salvation emphasize “by grace through faith alone”?
Romans 5:1… why doesn’t it say we are “justified by faith”?
The longer statement seems to cover this but why not put it in the short one?
As for doctrine of the Holy Spirit and lots of the other stuff… I don’t think “question-verse” format is going to work. These are complex doctrines developed by looking at multiple passages and drawing inferences, etc. (There are very few doctrines that can be rightly understood from one verse)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer]First, I didn’t say “Nothing” in that paragraph you quoted, so i’m confused why you put it in quotation marks. I said no one on this thread knows more than I do about Ellerslie. Did I say you knew nothing about it?
So either we spend 10 weeks there or we know “nothing”? Surely there is something between “ten weeks” and “zero.”
Do you care to expand on how long you have personally known Eric Ludy? Do you think that because you have listened to 20 sermons by him that you “know” him? We can all make statements about Barak Obama and his political beliefs, but do you think someone who is very close to him has more authority on the subject than someone who hardly knows him from the outside?
1. I cant seem to find any part negating the fact that we are saved by grace alone… care to point out a specific spot? If we just have to have faith to be saved, you must believe that once we have faith we are saved and sealed for time and eternity, right? I’m not saying we have to work for our salvation. But, read James 2:15-26. “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” Heres a story for you that you will have heard in Eric’s messages.
—
You are in prison. You have this sign that says “condemned to hell” above your cell. You are in Satan’s dungeon. Satan comes every day to beat you to a bloody pulp and you accept it because you feel condemned, but this day is different, this man steps in front of Satan’s beatings for today and dies in your place. Something supernatural happens. Your prison cell is unlocked, all you have to do is push it open. If you end up pushing it open, you walk outside and meet a messenger from the King in a golden chariot. You have a summons from the King to enter His throne room. The King wants you to go back to the dungeon you came from and tell people that all they have to do to be free is push their cell open. You, out of your exceeding gratitude for your life being spared, happily oblige. You know that the King has every right to do whatever He wants to you, after all, you were scum sitting in a prison cell. He owns you, because His son took the beating for you. He bought you with no small price.
—
It is by our exceeding gratitude to our Heavenly Father that we consider it a privilege to do works. Its not by works alone that saves us, nor is it by faith alone. Can you show me the Bible verse that you directly quoted by saying “by grace through faith alone”? Cause I cant find one.
2. I don’t know why Eric didn’t put it in the longer one. Why not ask him?
If the question verse format is not going to work for you then why argue on opinion? Why are you arguing things that you dont have solid grounding in the Bible to explain?
Aaron, do you mind clarifying which translation you use so I can better understand where you come from? I use KJV and ESV.
[JoshK] You all are arguing about something you know nothing about.It’s up http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-ever-heard-of-ellerslie#comment-165…] here
do you think someone who is very close to him has more authority on the subject than someone who hardly knows him from the outside?On what subject? On what he believes and teaches? His own statements are a sufficient source of knowledge for that subject.
I cant seem to find any part negating the fact that we are saved by grace alone.Me either. Didn’t say that.
Satan comes every day to beat you to a bloody pulp and you accept it because you feel condemned, but this day is different, this man steps in front of Satan’s beatings for today and dies in your place. Something supernatural happens…There is a problem with this story. The wrath Jesus took for us and the price He paid was not Satan’s wrath or Satan’s price. It was the holy wrath of the Father. Rom. 2:5, 3:5-6, 5:9, 9:22-23.
But nobody here is questioning that a life of obedience follows justification by faith… which seems to be the point of the story.
Its not by works alone that saves us, nor is it by faith alone. Can you show me the Bible verse that you directly quoted by saying “by grace through faith alone”? Cause I cant find one.Direct quoting is not necessary. What the Scriptures teach is the point. This is what they teach:
- Eph. 2:8-9 … “not of works”
- Titus 3:5…. “not by works of righteousness which we have done”
- John 6:29… “this is the work of God that you believe”
- Php 3:9-10 “not having my own righteousness which is from the law”
- Rom. 4:5 “to him who does not work but believes”
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I have never been a member of the United States Marine Corps. But, I have known enough Marines and former Marines and have read enough information about the Corps to carry on an intelligent conversation about the organization. The same can be said about various contributors to this thread. Many here have taken the time to read and evaluate the public statements made by this organization and its leadership. They may have misinterpreted or misperceived some points. That’s where someone who has personal knowledge of the organization and its leadership is helpful. Otherwise, to say unless you go through the 10 weeks of training you have no standing to discuss the organization, is the sam as saying unless you’ve gone through Marine Boot Camp, you have no standing to discuss the Corps.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
On what subject? On what he believes and teaches? His own statements are a sufficient source of knowledge for that subject.His primary authority is the Bible. So, in order to prove him wrong you must somehow prove the Bible is wrong. Quote from Ellerslie’s statement of belief:
We believe the Bible is the inspired and infallible and authoritative Word of God.—
Me either. Didn’t say that.Good, then his views seem to not contradict yours.
There is a problem with this story.Yep.
Its cause you didn’t understand it right. Let me ask you a few questions. Are we condemned to death without Christ? When we sin, are we accepting the fact that we’re human? Why do we sin? If we are without Christ, does that mean satan has a hold on our life? What does satan do with us when he is seated on the throne of our life? Jesus took the condemnation away. Romans 8:1
But nobody here is questioning that a life of obedience follows justification by faithGood. Thats all i’m saying.
Direct quoting is not necessary.Uh, yah it is. You made the quote, you back it up, or take it back. Revelation 22:18
You didn’t refute my James 2 reference. And you never answered where you got that ridiculous quote “by grace through faith alone.”
Aaron, Please read my posts fully next time, not just take out bits and pieces to build a straw man.
I said
I’m not saying we have to work for our salvation.You did not read that apparently, because you would not be asking the question that Ellerslie believes we are saved through faith and works. Read.
Also, again I ask, what translation are you using, Aaron?
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Rob
I could accept that. I was merely saying “don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.”
Neither of you are at Ellerslie right now, because if you were, you would be right down the hall from me right now and we would be having this discussion in person. Would you say you know everything about the Marines? If not, would you tell everyone that you did? Would people, knowing you aren’t a Marine, believe you as an authority on the subject?
[joshk] And you never answered where you got that ridiculous quote “by grace through faith alone.”I’ll answer for Aaron on where he got that ridiculous quote. Ephesians 2:8. It is also one of the major distinguishing characteristics of any true Protestant church which finds it’s roots in Martin Luther’s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide] Sola Fide .
[joshk] Would you say you know everything about the Marines? If not, would you tell everyone that you did? Would people, knowing you aren’t a Marine, believe you as an authority on the subject?If I knew a lot about the Marines, yes, they would consider me an authority. And they would consider Rob an authority, as well, if he knew a lot. In the same way as certain people are authorities on different people throughout history.
Sorry Daniel, I dont see Ephesians 2:8 saying “by grace through faith alone.” It says “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,” — not “by grace through faith alone.” as Aaron put in a previous post, like that quote was directly out of the Bible. I’m nitpicking, but its huge when you add words to the Bible. I dont want anyone to start a habit of that. This is almost the same as Jehovah’s witnesses adding “a” to John 1:1. At the very most it is inferred. Again, I’m saying a life of obedience follows for a true follower of Christ, which I think you all are also saying. “Thus you will recognize them by their fruits” - Matt 7:20.
Would you say I am inclined to have more knowledge about Ellerslie than someone on this thread because I am attending it? Or do you think that you have more knowledge on this subject because you are on the outside? If you think you have more knowledge about Ellerslie, thats fine. I believe you are dreadfully mistaken, but I wont argue this point anymore if you believe that. We can move on to other questions. I still havent seen one Ellerslie believes that contradicts the Bible.
Would you say I am inclined to have more knowledge about Ellerslie than someone on this thread because I am attending it? Or do you think that you have more knowledge on this subject because you are on the outside? If you think you have more knowledge about Ellerslie, thats fine. I believe you are dreadfully mistaken, but I wont argue this point anymore if you believe that. We can move on to other questions. I still havent seen one Ellerslie believes that contradicts the Bible.
[joshk] Sorry Daniel, I dont see Ephesians 2:8 saying “by grace through faith alone.” It says “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,” — not “by grace through faith alone.” as Aaron put in a previous post, like that quote was directly out of the Bible. I’m nitpicking, but its huge when you add words to the Bible. I dont want anyone to start a habit of that. This is almost the same as Jehovah’s witnesses adding “a” to John 1:1. At the very most it is inferred. Again, I’m saying a life of obedience follows for a true follower of Christ, which I think you all are also saying. “Thus you will recognize them by their fruits” - Matt 7:20Seriously! Do you seriously not believe in sola fide? (by grace through faith alone) I’ll admit that the exact word ‘alone’ is not in Ephesians 2:8, but what does it mean when it says it is a gift and that it is not through works? But, if you don’t like that, just so you know, this has been and will continue to be a founding block of Christianity. You might want to actually talk to Eric and ask him if he thinks we are saved by grace through faith alone.
And if you get hung up because it says, ‘you have been saved’ in between ‘grace’ and ‘through’, let me reword it from the original languages for you, ‘for you have been saved by grace through faith…’
And just to be clear, are you saying this is what you believe or what Eric and Ellerslie teaches?
Once again, i’ll say for the third time (at least.) both Ellerslie and I don’t believe you are saved by works. There are only 2 options I see. Correct me if I’m wrong. Theres only a choice of salvation by faith and salvation by works. It sounds like you’re reading what you want to read. When I said “At the very most it is inferred” I meant the word “alone.”
My big problem was Aaron was quoting the Bible (which is good) but he added a word. I wont stand for that.
Oh, and by the way, I have asked Eric about that. Thanks.
I’m regurgitating what I’ve learned here at Ellerslie on this forum. I’m not Eric Ludy, obviously, but I’m a student directly under him.
My big problem was Aaron was quoting the Bible (which is good) but he added a word. I wont stand for that.
Oh, and by the way, I have asked Eric about that. Thanks.
I’m regurgitating what I’ve learned here at Ellerslie on this forum. I’m not Eric Ludy, obviously, but I’m a student directly under him.
So, what does it mean when it says it is a gift not of works? Does Paul teach that we can receive this grace through any other means than through faith? (and i’m not asking what Eric believes, but what you believe Paul said)
[JoshK] His primary authority is the Bible. So, in order to prove him wrong you must somehow prove the Bible is wrong.So, there is no possibility that his understanding of the Bible is incorrect? This statement sounds very cultish!
After reading your posts JoshK, it is apparent that one thing Ellerslie doesn’t teach is humility. Your arrogance, for someone who I suspect is very young, is not impressing me with what you are allegedly learning at Ellerslie.
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Josh, just need a straight answer. Sometimes you’re saying there are only two possibilities: either saved by faith or saved by works. But when we say “faith alone” you recoil. So if it is not faith + works and is not faith alone… is faith plus something else?
As for Ephesians 2:8-9, “alone” is a classic case of necessary inference. Since it says “by grace are you saved through faith” and later says “not of works” the necessary inference is “faith alone” (unless you’ve got a third thing to add to faith that is neither faith nor works).
I never said the word “alone” was in the verse. I indicated that the verse taught by grace through faith alone, which it does… along with half a dozen others I listed later.
So do you and Ellerslie believe in salvation by grace through faith alone or not?
Also, I’d like to hear a direct answer to whether it is possible for Eric Ludy to make errors in interpreting Scripture.
As for Ephesians 2:8-9, “alone” is a classic case of necessary inference. Since it says “by grace are you saved through faith” and later says “not of works” the necessary inference is “faith alone” (unless you’ve got a third thing to add to faith that is neither faith nor works).
I never said the word “alone” was in the verse. I indicated that the verse taught by grace through faith alone, which it does… along with half a dozen others I listed later.
So do you and Ellerslie believe in salvation by grace through faith alone or not?
Also, I’d like to hear a direct answer to whether it is possible for Eric Ludy to make errors in interpreting Scripture.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[joshk] I’m regurgitating what I’ve learned here at EllerslieAn apt description indeed.
[joshk] I’m not Eric Ludy, obviously, but I’m a student directly under him.Seeing you are posting as joshk, one already assumed you are not Eric Ludy. But it is interesting that you took the time to make sure you declared this so, seeing that it is already clear you are joshk and if you were Eric Ludy you would come right out and say so, right?
In the end, joshk, I do not believe you are even doing Eric Ludy and Ellerslie justification with the style or content of your arguments. And all of your demonstrations do not erase the already extreme statements by Ludy and Gallagher or the factional construct of Ellerslie.
My own view about Ellerslie: (I read the doctrinal statement, looked the site over, checked out the student handbook, etc)
- It’s a “deeper life” kind of movement (search around the site and you will actually see the phrase “deeper life”)
- The doctrinal statement does not read like a typical doctrinal statement that one is used to. But (without doing deep analysis) looks evangelical
- I think Alex’s comments about it being a cult are completely off the mark. The Christology is orthodox.
- The student handbook is pretty reasonable. Nothing that weird or restrictive there
- Reminds me of when (upon college graduation back in ‘71) went off to Campus Crusade for Christ HQ (then at Arrowhead Springs CA) for the summer. We had Bible training, devotions, beach evangelism, living in dorm rooms, etc.
[Jim Peet]Alex never made this comment, please correct this. I have never posted that it is a cult. Now, if I have please show me where and I will accept this as a correction regarding my view about what I have posted, otherwise I certainly would appreciate having my comments properly represented.
I think Alex’s comments about it being a cult are completely off the mark.
What concerns me are statements like this-
Whether or not Eric Ludy encourages this view of himself we do not know. But I think he’d be well-advised to actively discourage any hero worship.
I also think it’s a good question to ask if prolonged isolation/sequestering really is necessary or preferential for study and spiritual growth. It’s a model that other groups use as well, so it isn’t as if Ellerslie is the only place that does this.
His primary authority is the Bible. So, in order to prove him wrong you must somehow prove the Bible is wrong. Quote from Ellerslie’s statement of belief:The obvious adoration/reverence directed at an individual in leadership whom we are supposed to assume cannot be questioned in any way reminds me of the way some HAC graduates revere Jack Hyles. Ick.
Whether or not Eric Ludy encourages this view of himself we do not know. But I think he’d be well-advised to actively discourage any hero worship.
I also think it’s a good question to ask if prolonged isolation/sequestering really is necessary or preferential for study and spiritual growth. It’s a model that other groups use as well, so it isn’t as if Ellerslie is the only place that does this.
[Alex Guggenheim]Perhaps I misunderstood you and if I did, I apologize.[Jim Peet]Alex never made this comment, please correct this. I have never posted that it is a cult. Now, if I have please show me where and I will accept this as a correction regarding my view about what I have posted, otherwise I certainly would appreciate having my comments properly represented.
I think Alex’s comments about it being a cult are completely off the mark.
Up on comment # 4: “From their application form here is their code of honor, or behavioral requirements for attendees. Tell me what you see…I’ll tell you what I see, CULT principles scattered throughout (bold and italics mine):”
Your quote is clearly accurate. I observed the some cult principles but stopped short of calling it a cult. No harm no foul. Thanks.
In my own view you were harsh on Josh when he said
I’m regurgitating what I’ve learned here at EllerslieAnd you responded
An apt description indeed.Give “the kid” (I’m 61 so anyone under the age of 41 is a “kid” to me!) a break!
[Alex Guggenheim] From the website:Alex, I’m a little late to the party, but I think that this comment (in bold - It’s #3) was too much. Would you say the same thing of the CIT program at the Wilds, or RA’s at any Christian College/University who are fortunate enough to graduate with an MA in exchange for working for that institution? I was fortunate to have these privileges (for which I thank God), but my blessings came at another applicant’s expense. Some of those applicants would probably have learned and gotten more from it than I did, but I was fortunate enough to be chosen for both of those opportunities.#1 Ellerslie Summer Training - Ellerslie Campus - Windsor, Colorado - June 2nd, 2010 - August 15th, 2010I couldn’t stop laughing…in fact I am still laughing, this would bring sad tears to my eyes were I not crying with laughter at the absurdity of this. Maybe the tears of sadness will set in shortly.
The first schooling phase (just mentioned) is the stateside classroom program lasting ten weeks. This is the mandatory starting point for all students interested in moving forward with an education at Ellerslie, and thusly a prerequisite to both the Ellerslie Haiti School and the Ellerslie Bible School. The tuition cost for this phase is $4,950, which will cover all schooling, food, and lodging costs (books and materials will be an additional cost).
#2 Ellerslie Haiti School - (optional) Ouanaminthe, Haiti - August 20th, 2010 - September 20th, 2010
The second phase is optional, but by no means lesser - it includes a trip to Ouanaminthe, Haiti to live, study, and demonstrate Christ amongst the destitute, the poor, and the orphaned. The cost for this portion of the program is heavily based on plane ticket expense. Based on current airline prices, this portion of the program will run between $1,200 and $1,500 (and will include all travel, schooling, food, and lodging expenses).
Ah yes, spiritual advancement for THOSE who can afford it. Old gimmick, new wrapping paper.
God’s design is superior in every way. He has given the gift of the office of Pastor-teacher for the church today. He then gives the appropriate gifting to certain men to fulfill this office. Such men, of true faith, are equipped by God himself to study and teach local congregations and at times those in distant places through varying means of communication.And who teaches the teachers? Don’t those who want to be Pastors typically go through special, intensive training (either in a mentoring relationship or through some kind of schooling, either undergrad or graduate?) Americans are generally fortunate enough that they can work hard to afford the kinds of privileges that the United States can offer. If someone’s parents decide that this is going to be good for their kids, and they can afford it, then what’s the big deal? Or do you really want to start telling people how to raise their kids and how to train their pastors?
And in God’s design, all those positive to the Word of God have equal access.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
I believe I was giving him just the break he needed. :)
Daniel - This gets into different theologies (which by the way we are discouraged to talk about during Ellerslie, specifically because this is a time to cultivate our own theology according to the Bible, and not base it on what another student says.) that many have discussed over the ages. To answer your question directly, Paul does not talk about any other way to have salvation except through grace. But there is so much more to this than meets the eye. Its not just a saving by grace and you keep on sinning (Romans 6:1-2) Its a continual purification process. Once one is saved they begin to drink spiritual milk (1 Corinthians 3) so, once one is saved, that person is expected to progress in his/her faith. If not, I dont believe they are saved. You asked what I believed, not what Ellerslie believed, so theres my opinion. John 14:5-17.
JohnBrian - care to define cult using the Bible? I noticed you had not one Bible verse in your post. I asked for Bible verses. Ask questions using the Bible as your backup, not what you think of me.
Aaron - see my above answer for Daniel. To your other question, yes it is possible for Eric to have a bad interpretation of scripture. Since he hasn’t thus far, I have no reason to doubt his interpretations in the future, though I still test them using the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-21.
Alex - Thanks. Much love to you too, man. Use a Bible verse next time. Then you will have authority behind your posts rather than just sound like a 1 Corinthians 13:1b “a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” :P I know thats out of context and a bad use of the verse, so disregard that as a use of my theology.
Jim - Thanks so much! your encouragement (and defense) means a ton! Know that I am cheering you on towards the throne!
Susan - Eric says he is not the primary interpreter of the Bible, and he understands that people have different views, but his theology is not off-kilter or unbiblical. see 1 Thessalonians 5:16-21.
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Also, Ellerslie just put out a new video that I had a major hand in producing (though I am uncredited. :P) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWEgt729Uvw
Have a look!
JohnBrian - care to define cult using the Bible? I noticed you had not one Bible verse in your post. I asked for Bible verses. Ask questions using the Bible as your backup, not what you think of me.
Aaron - see my above answer for Daniel. To your other question, yes it is possible for Eric to have a bad interpretation of scripture. Since he hasn’t thus far, I have no reason to doubt his interpretations in the future, though I still test them using the Bible. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-21.
Alex - Thanks. Much love to you too, man. Use a Bible verse next time. Then you will have authority behind your posts rather than just sound like a 1 Corinthians 13:1b “a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” :P I know thats out of context and a bad use of the verse, so disregard that as a use of my theology.
Jim - Thanks so much! your encouragement (and defense) means a ton! Know that I am cheering you on towards the throne!
Susan - Eric says he is not the primary interpreter of the Bible, and he understands that people have different views, but his theology is not off-kilter or unbiblical. see 1 Thessalonians 5:16-21.
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Also, Ellerslie just put out a new video that I had a major hand in producing (though I am uncredited. :P) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWEgt729Uvw
Have a look!
Discussion