John MacArthur: "It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities"
[Charlie] I can’t stand those peurile and irresponsible pastors like Luther and Calvin and the Puritans and the New England Congregationalists and almost all the other people who gave us historic Protestantism. And let’s not forget that peurile and irresponsible Person who commanded the use of an alcoholic beverage in the central act of Christian worship. (Some statements tell more about the speaker than anything else.)Come on, Charlie…you’re better than this.Deuteronomy 14:22-27 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
We both know that MacArthur is clearly fighting against the kind of licentious living that characterizes those who make alcohol an integral part of their ‘fellowship’ or ‘outreach strategy’, which is mainly those in the young and reformed movement. That’s why he writes:
Cast a disapproving eye at any of those activities, and you are likely to be swarmed by restless reformers denouncing legalism and wanting to debate whether it’s a “sin” to drink wine or smoke a cigar. But without even raising the question of whether this or that specific activity is acceptable, indifferent, or out-and-out evil, we surely ought to be able to say that controlled substances and other symbols of secular society’s seamy side are not what the church of Jesus Christ ought to wish to be known for. In fact, until fairly recently, no credible believer in the entire church age would ever have suggested that so many features evoking the ambiance of a pool hall or a casino could also be suitable insignia for the people of God.
MacArthur even pointedly comments on the appropriateness of drinking alcohol in Paul’s day:
In biblical times, wine was necessary for health reasons. The risk of amoebae and parasites in drinking water could be significantly reduced or eliminated by mixing the water with a little wine (1 Timothy 5:23). The result was a greatly diluted wine that had virtually no potential for making anyone drunk. Purified tap water and refrigeration make even that use of wine unnecessary today.MacArthur starts to wind up his article with this pitch:
Contrary to the current mythology, abstinence is no sin—least of all for someone devoted to ministry (Leviticus 10:9; Proverbs 31:4; Luke 1:15). It is, of course, a sin to give one’s mind over to the influence of alcohol or to bedeck one’s reputation with deliberate symbols of debauchery. As a matter of fact, drunkenness and debauchery are the very antithesis of Spirit-filled sanctification (Ephesians 5:18)—and men who indulge in them are not qualified to be spiritual leaders.
This tendency to emblazon oneself with symbols of carnal indulgence as if they were valid badges of spiritual identity is one of the more troubling aspects of the YRR movement’s trademark restlessness. It is wrong-headed, carnal, and immature to imagine that bad-boy behavior makes good missional strategy. The image of beer-drinking Bohemianism does nothing to advance the cause of Christ’s kingdom.
Slapping the label “incarnational” on strategies such as this doesn’t alter their true nature. They have more in common with Lot, who pitched his tent toward Sodom, than with Jesus, who is “holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26).
Real Christian liberty is not about flouting taboos and offending conventional notions of propriety. The liberty in which we stand begins with full indemnity from the law’s threats and condemnation—meaning we are at peace with God (Romans 5:1; 8:1). Christian liberty also removes the restrictions of the law’s ceremonial commandments (Colossians 2:16-17)—freeing us from asceticism, superstition, sensuality, and “human precepts and teachings” (vv. 18-23).
Personally, I’m glad that MacArthur wrote this. I hope that the clear teaching of this post gains wide circulation and that some realize the error of their way as a result of it.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
MacArthur (or someone else) linked to a CT article called ” http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/july/6.16.html Brewing Battle “. Here’s how it opens:
Quick question - since when did Jesus command us to go into all the world and teach politics?
It seems like the MBC - of whom I know very little - probably had to change their funding methods in order to make sure that they weren’t funding beer parties. It does not surprise me that the Journey church that is mentioned here is affiliated with Mark Driscoll. He has been one of the biggest proponents of this kind of unScriptural behavior, and he’s going to destroy hundreds of lives in his insistence on confronting cultural ‘mores’ like the consumption of alcohol.
Church planters who receive money from the Missouri Baptist Convention (MBC) must now teach alcohol abstinence. The policy change was sparked by the Journey, a growing interdenominational church that borrowed $200,000 from the MBC to renovate a church two years ago. One of the Journey’s outreach groups meets in a St. Louis microbrewery.
“Theology at the Bottleworks was started to reach people who are actively opposed to Christianity, by discussing contemporary cultural issues in a neutral environment,” explained Darrin Patrick, founding pastor of the Journey, which attracts about 1,500 people weekly to three sites. Those who attend Theology at the Bottleworks grab a beer and discuss political or spiritual topics, such as the role of women in society, the legal system, or animal rights.
Quick question - since when did Jesus command us to go into all the world and teach politics?
Mark DeVine, professor at Midwest Baptist Theological Seminary, sees the new MBC policy as part of a struggle between traditional churches and the young “emerging” church. The Journey’s Patrick serves as vice president of Acts 29, a church-planting network led by Seattle pastor Mark Driscoll. Driscoll describes Acts 29 as “theologically conservative and culturally liberal.” About one-quarter of Acts 29 churches affiliate with the SBC.
The controversy may not stop with alcohol. MBC executive board member Michael Knight, who chairs the theological study committee, has proposed that the MBC sever all contact, financial and otherwise, with Acts 29.
It seems like the MBC - of whom I know very little - probably had to change their funding methods in order to make sure that they weren’t funding beer parties. It does not surprise me that the Journey church that is mentioned here is affiliated with Mark Driscoll. He has been one of the biggest proponents of this kind of unScriptural behavior, and he’s going to destroy hundreds of lives in his insistence on confronting cultural ‘mores’ like the consumption of alcohol.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Susan R] I can’t help but think of the timeless question “How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop?” SO- how many drinks until one can no longer be considered sober?I guess then the answer is either ‘3’ or ‘The world may never know.’
http://christinacronk.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/tootsie-pop-owl.jpg
I’m not sure I should thank you for this. I hope I don’t think of this topic every time I see a Tootsie Roll in the future! :)
Dave Barnhart
All the deflection and opinion will not dilute the fact that Jesus made excellent wine for His first miracle. (Despite my boyhood IFB pastor’s protests that it must be grape juice.) The text is pretty clear. Those weddding guests having drunk everything in sight thought this new stuff was surprisingly good. It isn’t much of a stretch to say that Jesus made wine available for people who were already pretty buzzed. And He did it as the very first miracle of His ministry. It makes me smile on so many levels. You just can’t put Him in a box. Not an IFB box. Not an Evangelical box. Not even an exegetical box. He always the same. Cool then and cool now.
What’s funny is that you can tell who is serious about the Bible and ministry from the guys who defend drinking by appealing to the ‘coolness’ factor or the fact that ‘everyone else does it’ in church history.
Please.
Please.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Mac said:
http://www.whatwouldjesusbrew.co.uk/category/1beer/
What marks this as a “Young, Restless, and Reformed” site?
Don’t see it (but I may have missed something). Any help?
For some who self-identify as “Young, Restless, and Reformed,” it seems beer is a more popular topic for study and discussion than the doctrine of predestination. They devote whole websites to the celebration of brewed beverages.The above underlined links to this:
http://www.whatwouldjesusbrew.co.uk/category/1beer/
What marks this as a “Young, Restless, and Reformed” site?
Don’t see it (but I may have missed something). Any help?
It’s worth noting that the wine of Jesus’ day way watered down - 3 parts water to one part alcohol according to Wiersbe (The Be Exposition Commentary, v. 1, p. 292) and the Expositor’s Bible Commentary (Vol. 9, pg. 43). Methods for developing alcohol today are far more potent than the methods in Jesus’ day, since natural fermentation will only take you so far.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
I checked that link and found this post. Is that what you are looking for?
http://www.whatwouldjesusbrew.co.uk/2008/05/some-encouragements-from-ma…
Of all the posts in that site, there are 4 for theology. Three of them, I believe, celebrate the Christian brewing tradition (Two on Martin Luther, one on Arnold of Soisson, the ‘patron saint of brewers’) and then the one post above. The post on Arnold is particularly noteworthy for all the wrong reasons.
BTW, since when did Protestants need a patron saint of anything?
http://www.whatwouldjesusbrew.co.uk/2008/05/some-encouragements-from-ma…
Of all the posts in that site, there are 4 for theology. Three of them, I believe, celebrate the Christian brewing tradition (Two on Martin Luther, one on Arnold of Soisson, the ‘patron saint of brewers’) and then the one post above. The post on Arnold is particularly noteworthy for all the wrong reasons.
BTW, since when did Protestants need a patron saint of anything?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
If you click on the Theology tab of the link for whatwouldjesusbrew you will see things pertaining to Martin Luther and also Mark Driscoll. Here’s a quote
This week, I was delighted to discover great encouragement in our homebrew exploits from Mark Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle and one of the most influential church leaders in America at the moment. I have been blessed by listening to some of Driscoll’s teaching lately, and so I was well chuffed to see he reckons brewing and theology go hand in hand. As someone who is reformed in theology, committed to expository preaching, but not afraid to be “culturally-liberal“, Driscoll is sure become more influential as conservative evangelicals catch up with the emerging church in terms of cultural engagement.Sounds like cool YRR talk.
Oops, I see that Jay already linked to the blog I quoted from in my previous comment.
As far as the other links and questioning their pertinence. The blogger who calls himself “ordinary pastor” who posted about the newspaper editor’s beer fast wrote of himself on another post “I am 32 year old pastor. I am a Calvinist and I love the gospel of Christ. I have multiple tattoos and am sketching another right now. I am comfortable wearing my 14 gauge earrings, flat bill, suede Adidas, grunged out jeans. I drink almost exclusively English imported Beer (St. Peter’s and Boddingtons are favorites). “
Also, Claddagh’s calls itself a pub — it has “pub” right on the front of the building I believe. The blogger who wrote about Theology at the Pub also called it a pub, so I’m guessing that’s why John MacArthur’s post called it a pub.
As far as the other links and questioning their pertinence. The blogger who calls himself “ordinary pastor” who posted about the newspaper editor’s beer fast wrote of himself on another post “I am 32 year old pastor. I am a Calvinist and I love the gospel of Christ. I have multiple tattoos and am sketching another right now. I am comfortable wearing my 14 gauge earrings, flat bill, suede Adidas, grunged out jeans. I drink almost exclusively English imported Beer (St. Peter’s and Boddingtons are favorites). “
Also, Claddagh’s calls itself a pub — it has “pub” right on the front of the building I believe. The blogger who wrote about Theology at the Pub also called it a pub, so I’m guessing that’s why John MacArthur’s post called it a pub.
[Jay C.] It’s worth noting that the wine of Jesus’ day way watered down - 3 parts water to one part alcohol according to Wiersbe (The Be Exposition Commentary, v. 1, p. 292) and the Expositor’s Bible Commentary (Vol. 9, pg. 43). Methods for developing alcohol today are far more potent than the methods in Jesus’ day, since natural fermentation will only take you so far.Jay, I’d advise you to do some more research in this, from actual historians and classicists. While what you’re saying is true, it doesn’t give an accurate picture of how ancient people drank. We (or, shall I say, certain heathens out there) drink a 4-6 ounce crystal glass with dinner. They drank gobs of the stuff. It was more of a staple drink, similar to mead and ale in medieval Europe. (By the way, in medieval England, workers were usually allotted a gallon of ale every day. It was weak stuff, but that’s over 10 bottles of beer.)
A few quick resources:
http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/wine.html
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
The Christian who rejoices that the grace of God through Christ allows him to drink alcohol is like a converted Jew being blessed because he can eat bacon.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Jeffrey Dean] All the deflection and opinion will not dilute the fact that Jesus made excellent wine for His first miracle. (Despite my boyhood IFB pastor’s protests that it must be grape juice.) The text is pretty clear. Those weddding guests having drunk everything in sight thought this new stuff was surprisingly good. It isn’t much of a stretch to say that Jesus made wine available for people who were already pretty buzzed. And He did it as the very first miracle of His ministry. It makes me smile on so many levels. You just can’t put Him in a box. Not an IFB box. Not an Evangelical box. Not even an exegetical box. He always the same. Cool then and cool now.
Just to be clear, I am NOT one who subscribes to the “Two-Wine Theory.” I believe that what Jesus created was wine, although its specific alcoholic content is unknown. But how do you know the guests at the wedding “were already pretty buzzed”? I find it difficult to believe that Jesus would help drunk people become more drunk, as I think we would all agree that the Bible clearly forbids drunkenness.
-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Charlie][Jay C.] It’s worth noting that the wine of Jesus’ day way watered down - 3 parts water to one part alcohol according to Wiersbe (The Be Exposition Commentary, v. 1, p. 292) and the Expositor’s Bible Commentary (Vol. 9, pg. 43). Methods for developing alcohol today are far more potent than the methods in Jesus’ day, since natural fermentation will only take you so far.Jay, I’d advise you to do some more research in this, from actual historians and classicists. While what you’re saying is true, it doesn’t give an accurate picture of how ancient people drank. We (or, shall I say, certain heathens out there) drink a 4-6 ounce crystal glass with dinner. They drank gobs of the stuff. It was more of a staple drink, similar to mead and ale in medieval Europe. (By the way, in medieval England, workers were usually allotted a gallon of ale every day. It was weak stuff, but that’s over 10 bottles of beer.)
A few quick resources:
http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/wine.html
I’ll check out those links, but I stand by what I said…Thanks for providing that information. FWIW, I’m an abstainer in practice, but I don’t think that drinking in small amounts is necessarily verboten. I am concerned about people who feel that alcohol should be a major component of their lifestyle because Jesus made some kind of wine from water or because “Mark Driscoll thinks it’s cool” or whatever.
It should also be worth noting that people drank ale and whatever because all the potable water was used for washing and waste removal. Water purification in Jesus’ day - or in Luther’s day - wasn’t quite the same as it is today.
Finally:
“I am 32 year old pastor. I am a Calvinist and I love the gospel of Christ. I have multiple tattoos and am sketching another right now. I am comfortable wearing my 14 gauge earrings, flat bill, suede Adidas, grunged out jeans. I drink almost exclusively English imported Beer (St. Peter’s and Boddingtons are favorites). “
Seriously? This guy is sober, self-controlled, has a good testimony among unbelievers, and fits all of the other criteria laid down for those who desire the office of a pastor? When your whole shtick is that you’re cool just like everyone else, I don’t think that you necessarily match up to what God demands of ministers.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
The same word the Bible often uses for wine in a positive way (“oinos”) is the same word that Paul uses to tell us we shouldn’t get drunk with, but rather be controlled by the Spirit. Therefore, what one drank every day, could also make them drunk. The two-wine theory is just so bogus. That said, the argument from history that wine was necessary for the purification of water only, so it shouldn’t be used today doesn’t make sense of the biblical text either. There aren’t any verses that say anything close to “thank God for wine, because now we can have something to drink that doesn’t give us all kinds of deseases.” No, many of the verses praising wine do so based on at least partly it’s flavor and the fact that it “makes the heart glad.” It makes the most sense to me that it makes the heart glad because the wine had at least some alcohol in it. There has to be a way for the Christian not to despise this gift of God or abuse it.
I hate to use wikipedia, but this is a pretty good resource of a list of biblical terminology, and what scholars think it means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_the_bible
There are good arguments for abstinence based on Christian liberty and good sense. But to me ones based on ancient history and the bible fall flat.
I will say that proponents of a Christian use of alcohol often overlook the more recent history in the 18th and 19th in Europe and the US of heavy abuse of all kinds of controlled substances. I’ve heard some crazy statistics related to England and Holland and how there were however many many liters of gin consumed for every man woman and child per day. Almost whole countries were in a state of inebriation all day long because they mixed gin with their drinking water to really really REALLY kill all the bacteria (not a good idea!). So there is a history here. Ancient history contrains storys of both excess and moderation. More recent history is more about excess than moderation.
I hate to use wikipedia, but this is a pretty good resource of a list of biblical terminology, and what scholars think it means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_the_bible
There are good arguments for abstinence based on Christian liberty and good sense. But to me ones based on ancient history and the bible fall flat.
I will say that proponents of a Christian use of alcohol often overlook the more recent history in the 18th and 19th in Europe and the US of heavy abuse of all kinds of controlled substances. I’ve heard some crazy statistics related to England and Holland and how there were however many many liters of gin consumed for every man woman and child per day. Almost whole countries were in a state of inebriation all day long because they mixed gin with their drinking water to really really REALLY kill all the bacteria (not a good idea!). So there is a history here. Ancient history contrains storys of both excess and moderation. More recent history is more about excess than moderation.
Discussion