The Gospel Coalition: Can God Save a Fundamentalist School?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Todd,

How would you define rock music?

I’m going to come back to this later, possibly tomorrow. Not because I’m ignoring it, but because my answer is longer than time will allow.

I will say this momentarily - and this may make some heads spin - if I were using a biblical outlook on music, I’d hesitate to define rock music.

[mmartin]

Yes, organs can be included in a rock band and it is possible for a rock band to not have either drums or guitars.

If you took a poll of a random 100 people asking them to name a musical instrument that is identified with a rock band and I bet you the top two will be either drums or an electric guitar. A synthesizer could be another, but not an organ.

M,

[Every time I type that I feel like following it with ‘Bond, James Bond’]

Guilt by association leads to a whole host of problems, which, in many ways, is where secondary separation goes astray.

Let me ask you this - do you believe musical instruments are moral, immoral, or amoral? And if there are certain ones you’d always place in one of those categories, please share…

We could go places with this one regarding guilt by association thing!! Rock bands use ink printed on paper for promotional purposes therefore I decree by the Doctrine of Secondary Separation that we should no longer use ink nor paper!!!

Of course guilt by association can be problematic, but hyper-hairsplitting the discussion points can get silly as well. Again, the original question was do I think NIU’s Redeemed group is a rock band to which I said Yes. Drums and electric guitars are the most common instruments used by rock bands. That is my opinion about the group and a basic fact about the instruments used and I stand by it.

Todd, good question about musical instruments. I believe music is moral. To be honest I haven’t actually thought about the music instruments themselves. Having said that I definitely think each instrument has an individual personality and communicates in its own way. A piano can be used to give a sweet sound as well as something dark, but yet it retains a certain personality that other instruments do not have. In the case of an electric guitar, I would not classify the way it was played in the “Redeemed” video as either sweet or reverent. There is a reason why electric guitars are one of the top 2 instruments used by rock bands because of the harsh, hard sound it easily provides. I wouldn’t say the instrument itself is wrong, but it definitely has a personality that easily lends itself to certain musicians playing certain types of music.

This is my story and I’m stickin’ to it! :-)!

Mmartin,

When did NIU “organize a CCM concert”?

Also, from what others have said recently here on SI, I’m curious as to why you think BJU is “trending upwards”?

[mmartin]

[Mike Harding]

Jay,

I agree with McCune’s assessment of MBBC based on the criteria he laid out. NIU, as you noted, has an uncertain future. My guess, and it’s only an educated guess based on recent conversation I have had with former associates of the school, is that a change in the administration by the governing board was due to management issues and not over the philosophical direction of the school per se. Over a decade ago when Les Ollila retired from the presidency, the college had nearly 700 students and about 18 million in the bank. Next year they were budgeting for approximately 250 students with only a small financial cushion. I personally think (and I may be wrong here) that NIU is continuing to follow the trajectory that Matt and the board set several years ago. I don’t see that changing.

If that is true about the board not as concerned over the philosophical direction of NIU, I don’t know what to say. I guess I don’t know exactly what that means. Are they OK with the idea of not separating over music AND OK with NIU having it’s own rock band? If that is the case then I would be disappointed in the board.

Dr. Olson has said NIU isn’t going to separate over music anymore. Starting your own rock band and organizing CCM concerts is going well beyond simply “not separating over music.”

Meanwhile NIU flounders downwards, their supporters on both sides don’t know what to think, the legacies of the Paul Patz and Dr. Ollila continue to get trampled on and flushed down the toilet, and stuffy ‘ol Fundy places like MBBC and BJU are trending upwards.

But at least now NIU is more “Gospel Centered” and there is greater hope now more than ever.

I wouldn’t say that any of the Fundy U’s are really trending upward. If they are getting more students it is probably because they are coming from other Fundy schools. According to your logic, Arizona State University has been blessed beyond measure with the LORD’s goodness. They have over 60,000 students enrolled! Now THAT is the opening of the windows of heaven!

Matthew

[mmartin]

Yes, I would say it is the presence of the electric guitars and drums. But much more beyond that it is the predominance of those instruments in the music itself. They are not background sounds. The electric guitarist isn’t just strumming lightly in the background. At times he playing it kind of hard, more emphatically. They are a major part of the music.

1 Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens!
2 Praise him for his mighty deeds;
praise him according to his excellent greatness!
3 Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
4 Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
5 Praise him with sounding cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord!

[mmartin]

Yes, organs can be included in a rock band and it is possible for a rock band to not have either drums or guitars.

If you took a poll of a random 100 people asking them to name a musical instrument that is identified with a rock band and I bet you the top two will be either drums or an electric guitar. A synthesizer could be another, but not an organ.

I can do you one better. Every rock singer uses his voice to sing and make sounds. Using your logic, we should outlaw singing altogether in church. Your singers are using the same exact “instrument” that the Godless rock and rollers are using. You are being extremely worldly and I rebuke you to stop immediately.

Honestly this entire discussion has been headed to crazyville really quick. People arguing about enrollment numbers and “rock and roll instruments”? This is a thread tailor made for the forums over at the FFF or www.baptist-city.com!

Matthew

[Todd Himes]

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Todd,

How would you define rock music?

I’m going to come back to this later, possibly tomorrow. Not because I’m ignoring it, but because my answer is longer than time will allow.

I will say this momentarily - and this may make some heads spin - if I were using a biblical outlook on music, I’d hesitate to define rock music.

Every good Fundy knows the Bible talks explicitly about rock and roll music. Here is just one famous example from Exodus 32 that I heard ad nauseam growing up…

And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear. And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount…

Matthew

The more I have been thinking about music and fellowship issues, the more I am becoming convinced that it should not preclude all possible cooperation between believers. I say this as someone who still sings the Doxology and Gloria Patri, generally avoids gospel songs (though perhaps not as strenuously as a couple of years ago), and generally avoids percussion instruments in the service (unless you count the piano). I do think that it is going to affect specific things (particular music choices at a youth rally would be a major factor in whether or not I sent our teens, for example), but I do not think that one can determine one’s status as a Fundamentalist based on their practice on that issue alone.

One thing that doesn’t get talked about much in these conversations is what I will call “Presentation.” Douglas Wilson articulates what I’m thinking about in general categories, anyway:

Let us define traditional and ecclesiastical as including hymns, organs, stateliness, accomplished choir pieces, and so on. Let us define contemporary as including guitars, drum sets, worship bands, and so on. I trust we all have the general picture. Both of these can be done right, and both can be done wrong. When traditional music goes wrong, it can manifest itself in things like a prissy fastidiousness, effeminacy, perfectionism, elitism in the choir, and a organist with an acoustical rock pile to bury the congregation with. When contemporary music goes wrong, it can manifest itself in acute hipsterism, worship leaders whose facial expressions are more suggestive of (ahem- self gratification?) than devotion, elitism in the worship band, and a lead guitarist with an acoustical rock pile to bury the congregation with.

I am not saying that I would encourage someone to use the contemporary style in a congregation I pastored. If there was such a church that adopted the method in the Minnesota Baptist Association, lets say, I would not encourage my church to leave, or encourage the association to expel them on those grounds, as I might if they decided to start accepting members who had not been immersed, or adopted a more ambiguous position on eschatology than our pre-trib, pre-mill position.

It’s not that I believe music is amoral. It’s not that I believe music is unimportant. I don’t think that it’s more important than other areas like doctrine, though. And by the way- I do think that I can have fellowship and cooperate with other believers that I could not in good conscience enjoy local church fellowship with.

It seems to me that this is an area that one must acknowledge must be evaluated, and even amongst people with conservative positions, there is a fair amount of subjectivity in applications. Do you have congregational only or choirs and “special music”? There are some who have gone to including metrical Psalms (some so far as even exclusively so). Do you use a song leader? If so, how does he lead- not how does he wave his arms, but does he throw in humorous interjections or quirky adjustments to songs (I remember one when I was a kid who would steadily increase the amount of times we said “power” in the chorus of “Power in the Blood”- we went up to eight, I think- “There is pow’r-pow’r-pow’r-pow’r-pow’r-pow’r-pow’r-pow’r wonder working power…”).

I say that to say that it is possible to do “conservative/traditional” music badly and irreverently. I would have to allow that on the other hand, someone could make a concerted effort to do contemporary music styles in a way that put a lot more intentional effort on doctrine, conduct, and temperate performance/presentation techniques. I don’t like either one, and I don’t think that is as simple as a matter of “preference,” even. But I don’t think that my beliefs on election are, either- yet I have learned how to function and fellowship with brothers in Christ in local church fellowship and in church association settings where we drew different conclusions on that doctrinal matter. I’m not sure why we would conclude that music is a more significant matter than some of these other things.

[Matthew Richards]

I wouldn’t say that any of the Fundy U’s are really trending upward. If they are getting more students it is probably because they are coming from other Fundy schools. According to your logic, Arizona State University has been blessed beyond measure with the LORD’s goodness. They have over 60,000 students enrolled! Now THAT is the opening of the windows of heaven!

Matthew

I never said anything about numbers being a sign of God’s blessing. That wasn’t my logic.

Yours?

[Matthew Richards]

Honestly this entire discussion has been headed to crazyville really quick.

Matthew

Ahh, yes, I agree.

[mmartin]

[Matthew Richards]

I wouldn’t say that any of the Fundy U’s are really trending upward. If they are getting more students it is probably because they are coming from other Fundy schools. According to your logic, Arizona State University has been blessed beyond measure with the LORD’s goodness. They have over 60,000 students enrolled! Now THAT is the opening of the windows of heaven!

Matthew

I never said anything about numbers being a sign of God’s blessing. That wasn’t my logic.

Yours?

You said that MBBC and BOJO were “trending upwards”. Maybe you meant they were trending upwards in some other way? It is quite possible that you had the great song, “Higher Ground” by Johnson Oatman in mind and not their number of students. I assumed you were talking about enrollment numbers. My bad.

Matthew

[mmartin]

We could go places with this one regarding guilt by association thing!! Rock bands use ink printed on paper for promotional purposes therefore I decree by the Doctrine of Secondary Separation that we should no longer use ink nor paper!!!

Of course guilt by association can be problematic, but hyper-hairsplitting the discussion points can get silly as well. Again, the original question was do I think NIU’s Redeemed group is a rock band to which I said Yes. Drums and electric guitars are the most common instruments used by rock bands. That is my opinion about the group and a basic fact about the instruments used and I stand by it.

Todd, good question about musical instruments. I believe music is moral. To be honest I haven’t actually thought about the music instruments themselves. Having said that I definitely think each instrument has an individual personality and communicates in its own way. A piano can be used to give a sweet sound as well as something dark, but yet it retains a certain personality that other instruments do not have. In the case of an electric guitar, I would not classify the way it was played in the “Redeemed” video as either sweet or reverent. There is a reason why electric guitars are one of the top 2 instruments used by rock bands because of the harsh, hard sound it easily provides. I wouldn’t say the instrument itself is wrong, but it definitely has a personality that easily lends itself to certain musicians playing certain types of music.

This is my story and I’m stickin’ to it! :-)!

mmartin, the instruments that were most commonly used in NT times were stringed instruments, drums and trumpets. If Jesus listened to music during his time on earth or sang any songs, it was most likely accompanied by these types of instruments. Of course you would not accuse Jesus of sinning by using either the music or musical instruments of his culture :) And I say that half in jest.

The Christian church has battled every few hundred years about music. The early church was opposed to instruments of any kind. The Protestant church fought for congregational singing with the folk tunes of the day. For years, the church resisted the use of pianos and organs. Could it not be construed as arrogant to say that we have arrived at the apex of music at this point in time? Guitars have been the instrument of choice for circuit riding preachers over the years…good Baptists no less!! Is it possible that you, (not trying to single you out here), have locked yourself into a particular cultural type of music? “Sacred music” is a unique blend of English ditties, German anthems, and American folk songs. Your musical position was rejected by about 1700 years of church history and has been largely rejected by a definite of theological conservatism for the past 50 years…you really feelin’ that lucky today?

These words are not meant to be sarcastic or denigrating. Please understand that I think you should do what you believe is right (conscience first!). I am merely throwing a few things out there.

I have not got involved in any of the music discussion yet but I think mmartin’s point about guitars and drums being the standard instruments of rock is correct. I am actually surprised anyone is debating that fact. You may not agree with how he applies that understanding but I just don’t understand how that is even being debated. What were the instruments of the jazz era? Primarily horns, piano’s and drums. Sure you had Gene Krupa on the drums but he was transitional. You had Django Reinhardt on the guitar but how many people who have not listened to jazz have even heard of him? Then you get to the Rock era and how are the “greats” defined? Hendrix-Guitar, Clapton-Guitar, Townsend-Guitar, Stevie Ray Vaughn-guitar. All those guys were singers too but most of the most well known singers in rock history have also played the guitar. Even guys with vocal range like Robert Plant were still guitar players. Drumming also took on a new emphasis in rock.

Maybe rock has become so nuanced now that those who know about it can look and say that the NIU group is not a typical rock group but they sure would have been considered a rock group by my parents generation.

Maybe I am out of touch or I am allowing my previous musical tastes to color my thinking but when I listen to that I would not even hesitate to classify it as “rock”.

[Mark_Smith]

Books have been written on this subject! You want to diagnose your life in a thread post? I am not your personal friend. All I can do is speak generally about the dangers of CCM. Any thoughts on my post about Asa?

The point with Asa was that he had a heart for God yet he didn’t remove the high places. Did he have sin in his heart over that issue?

Mark,

Thank you for bringing more into the discussion than the frequent “he said” “she said”! I think many of the discussions could be much more edifying with profuse use of Scriptures!

As for Asa (and other righteous kings) the problem of not removing the high places did not always show up in the next generation. I do think there could be applications for many spiritual issues by way of extension.

Sometimes the issues that are really hotly disputed in one generation show their fruits later!

Asa was righteous! But the job was incomplete! The high places remained.

Whether or not CCM is analogous with high places (I could live with such analogies) may show its fruit in the next generation, or the one thereafter, if the LORD tarries!

How about if we bring more Bible and less opinion into the discussions?

Joel