"Matt Ols[o]n would do well to eject, but it may cost him his school"

Thanks for answering, Joel. And thanks for explaining yourself. It may be that no one will read this now, since the last post was three days ago. I have not been able to get back to the discussion for the past few days.

I am glad that Platonism as a cause for the church fathers rejecting music of the pagans is out of the way. I really didn’t think Plato’s ideas had much at all to do with this matter.

I think that you have made a logical jump in insisting that because the early church fathers did not have “a rigorous doctrine of Creation,” they were too condemning of heathen music. I am not sure that can really stand up to examination. To substantiate it, you need to do more than just state it. It is true that the church fathers did not develop the doctrines of the creation and the fall as well as Calvin, Hodge, Bavnick, etc. (I would add Luther, Shedd, Strong, and Erickson, etc.). But you can say this about every doctrine. None of the fathers had doctrine as well developed as the more modern theologians. This does not, however, mean that their doctrines or understanding of doctrines were not “rigorous.” Augustine built on Tertullian’s teachings for the doctrine of the depravity of man (which Tertullian most thoroughly taught). Calvin and Luther borrowed heavily from Augustine. Christians did not have to wait until Calvin to discern what is wicked in this world and what is not. We may disagree with conclusions of various church fathers, just like we disagree with Calvin’s burning people at the stake. However, we need to disagree on account of their arguments, not on account of their preceding the Reformation.

Calvin, by the way, most certainly would have agreed with the early church fathers on music. He would not even allow dancing in Geneva. It was a crime which carried a penalty. And I doubt seriously whether Calvin, Edwards, the Hodges (throw in Spurgeon), et. al., in spite of their more advanced development of the doctrine of Creation, would have had any tolerance for Dinonysian music and dancing, or that of Cybele. The reason Dionysian music and dancing died out in western culture and did not emerge until the 20th century (namely as “rave”) was because of Christian indoctrination.

The early church fathers did not just condemn the music of the heathen, they also condemned their shows, including gladiatorial fights. They condemned shows because they were full of profanity, vulgarity, idolatry, and nudity. I dare say their view of Creation had a fair amount to do with this. It is true, as you say, that if we did not get beyond the church fathers, we would still be dividing “image” and “likeness.” But it is also true that if it had not been for the church fathers, the west probably would not have survived as a culture. I think we have a lot to learn from them, including their views of music.

One still has to prove that 1 Tim 4.4 refers to or includes music at all. The text refers to food, it doesn’t refer to anything else, except possibly marriage. Some argue from “all things”, but it still doesn’t follow that God created music.

God created sound. Fallen man creates music. There is a difference.

Some may argue that God created music in heaven. Fine, show me the score.