[Fundamentalism] as term and a movement seems to have so many definitions that it fails to have any definition
… when individuals live with their theological noses to the ground relentlessly sniffing about for something on the order of compromise so they can justify another nuclear engagement, the land becomes littered with needless casualties and the real battles are lost for lack of unified engagement. Are we still calling ourselves Fundamentalists because we affirm the fundamentals or because we continue to fan the flames of fundamentalist anger? Should we still be lining up in battle formation or happily cheering each other on in our partnership of the gospel
The notorious Harvey Cox retired last month. And I have been reading this afternoon his most recent book published, The Future of Faith.
He spends a whole chapter on the sinking, fractured ship of American Fundamentalism.
But as a man of faith, contra to Cox, I will do battle royal for the fundamentals of the faith.
et
He spends a whole chapter on the sinking, fractured ship of American Fundamentalism.
But as a man of faith, contra to Cox, I will do battle royal for the fundamentals of the faith.
et
[Dave G] 3) “Lack of unified engagement”? “Real battles lost”? By whose estimation?
Bro. Dave,
I’m not arguing against anything you are saying.
However, let’s look at what “Real Battles” have been lost during the time that the original Fundamentalist Christians have been at odds with each other over the last 40-50 years:
* Prayer removed from schools;
* The murder of innocent, unborn children legalized;
* Increase in idoloatry (movie idols, sports idols, music idols, now even religious superstars);
* Acceptance and promotion of homosexuality in our society;
* Acceptance as normal of every type of immorality - fornication, cohabitation, pornography, paedophelia - in our society (And, God forbid, even in our churches);
* Acceptance and promotion of evolution as the only viable source of creation (as opposed to creation by the act of God);
* Elimination of even the mention of the names of God or Jesus Christ in any governement operated organization;
… and the list could continue for a long time.
Most of these are recognizable historical signposts of the beginning of the downfall of a society. Where were we - the born again, Bible believing, Christ honoring Christians - when all of this happened? Were we praying? Were we standing for God and His Word in our society? Or had we, as the Biblical illustration says, become as salt that had lost its savor?
Yes, God wins His battles. And He has already won the ultimate battle, on Calvary’s hill. Do we then have no responsibility to represent Him in the ongoing battle for the souls of men here on earth? Are we not to let our light shine? Are we not ambassadors for Christ? (“I speak as a fool.”)
[Rev Karl]… let’s look at what “Real Battles” have been lost during the time that the original Fundamentalist Christians have been at odds with each other over the last 40-50 years:
* Prayer removed from schools;
* The murder of innocent, unborn children legalized;
* Increase in idoloatry (movie idols, sports idols, music idols, now even religious superstars);
* Acceptance and promotion of homosexuality in our society;
* Acceptance as normal of every type of immorality - fornication, cohabitation, pornography, paedophelia - in our society (And, God forbid, even in our churches);
* Acceptance and promotion of evolution as the only viable source of creation (as opposed to creation by the act of God);
* Elimination of even the mention of the names of God or Jesus Christ in any governement operated organization;
… and the list could continue for a long time.
Most of these are recognizable historical signposts of the beginning of the downfall of a society. Where were we - the born again, Bible believing, Christ honoring Christians - when all of this happened? Were we praying? Were we standing for God and His Word in our society? Or had we, as the Biblical illustration says, become as salt that had lost its savor?
Yes, God wins His battles. And He has already won the ultimate battle, on Calvary’s hill. Do we then have no responsibility to represent Him in the ongoing battle for the souls of men here on earth? Are we not to let our light shine? Are we not ambassadors for Christ? (“I speak as a fool.”)
I think in many ‘battles’, the folks who follow behind lose sight of the original objective. They get sidetracked and end up fighting the wrong enemy.
I think Fundamentalism got caught up in fighting the symptoms instead of curing the disease. If we want to reduce the number of abortions, we must reach young men and women with the Gospel. If we want to impact rampant materialism and idolatry, we must reach people with the Gospel and disciple them thoroughly. If we want to influence gov’t, we must reach those interested in public office with the Gospel… and so on and so on.
The Gospel message isn’t about changing our behavior, but having a change of heart that will result in a change of behavior. Fundies have a very bad habit of confusing the two IMO, and mistaking behavior modification for repentance.
[Susan R][Rev Karl]… let’s look at what “Real Battles” have been lost during the time that the original Fundamentalist Christians have been at odds with each other over the last 40-50 years:
* Prayer removed from schools;
* The murder of innocent, unborn children legalized;
* Increase in idoloatry (movie idols, sports idols, music idols, now even religious superstars);
* Acceptance and promotion of homosexuality in our society;
* Acceptance as normal of every type of immorality - fornication, cohabitation, pornography, paedophelia - in our society (And, God forbid, even in our churches);
* Acceptance and promotion of evolution as the only viable source of creation (as opposed to creation by the act of God);
* Elimination of even the mention of the names of God or Jesus Christ in any governement operated organization;
… and the list could continue for a long time.
Most of these are recognizable historical signposts of the beginning of the downfall of a society. Where were we - the born again, Bible believing, Christ honoring Christians - when all of this happened? Were we praying? Were we standing for God and His Word in our society? Or had we, as the Biblical illustration says, become as salt that had lost its savor?
Yes, God wins His battles. And He has already won the ultimate battle, on Calvary’s hill. Do we then have no responsibility to represent Him in the ongoing battle for the souls of men here on earth? Are we not to let our light shine? Are we not ambassadors for Christ? (“I speak as a fool.”)
I think in many ‘battles’, the folks who follow behind lose sight of the original objective. They get sidetracked and end up fighting the wrong enemy.
I think Fundamentalism got caught up in fighting the symptoms instead of curing the disease. If we want to reduce the number of abortions, we must reach young men and women with the Gospel. If we want to impact rampant materialism and idolatry, we must reach people with the Gospel and disciple them thoroughly. If we want to influence gov’t, we must reach those interested in public office with the Gospel… and so on and so on.
The Gospel message isn’t about changing our behavior, but having a change of heart that will result in a change of behavior. Fundies have a very bad habit of confusing the two IMO, and mistaking behavior modification for repentance.
Great post, Susan! The last sentence nails it, IMO.
Senior Pastor, Harvest Bible Chapel, Fort Wayne, IN
[Susan R] The Gospel message isn’t about changing our behavior, but having a change of heart that will result in a change of behavior. Fundies have a very bad habit of confusing the two IMO, and mistaking behavior modification for repentance.
I think this is my point. Sorry if I did not express it clearly enough. Thanks for relaying the message all the way to the back row!
[Dave G] Now this is where it gets complicated, and I’ll have to break off lest I offend some in here…the “missing link” in the miracle of faith has always been the answer to these questions:Of course, the answer to the question is the intervention of the Holy Spirit.
What does it take to “trigger” genuine, saving faith and belief?
So why is our country, with so many born again believers, not *over-run* with people who have responded positively to the wooing of the Holy Spirit?
Is it possible that those who are supposed to be acting in obedience to the leadership of the Holy Spirit (the “branches” of John 15) have been distracted (“quenching” the Spirit), focusing their attentions instead on the perceived heresies of those who are their brethren?
Is it possible that those who are supposed to be focusing on The Word are, instead, focusing on social issues (“the symptoms” of a society that needs Christ)?
Craig Muri pastors a Baptist church at Plymouth, MN. just a stone’s throw from Fourth Baptist Church and Central Baptist Seminary where he graduated from. He was on the staff of Fourth Baptist church when Dr. Richard V. Clearwaters was there. He probably saw a lot of Fundamentalist tussles in the Minnesota Baptist Association. It would be interesting to have Craig Muri elaborate on his comments.
Dr. Kevin Bauder, President of Central Baptist Seminary has alluded to Fundamentalism no longer being a viable movement. However, he may think it is a viable concept or idea.
Some Fundamentalists in Minnesota, especially the Twin Cities area, may feel overwhelmed by John Piper and his multi location mega church as well as several other large evangelical churches in the area. I know of one Central Seminary professor who left there a few years ago and now teaches at an Evangelical school in the area and attends John Piper’s church. He has also changed from Dispensationalism to George Ladd’s view of the kingdom and evidently “historic Premillennialism.” From my knowledge and acquaintance he is a very good man and I am sorry he changed. He was a loss to Central Baptist seminary. He also had some other problems with the position and stance of some Fundamentalists. I also would share some of his concerns. For one, I have a real problem with the Fundamentalist advocacy for nouthetic counseling and the stance against most all Psychiatry and Psychology. Most all throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water and suffer from ignorance in this area.
IMHO, in spite of differences with some Fundamentalists and Fundamentalist institutions, I see it as an ongoing movement that transcends organizations and is a necessary concept based on being faithful to Christ and His church. As I have emphasized before, the core and passion for what has been termed as Fundamentalism comes from Paul’s charge at Acts 20: 17-38. Most all evangelicals (including conservative evangelical) are too indifferent and lack the desire to protect churches and institutions from the insidious ongoing attack by wolves from within and without. They shy away from the struggle and costs of such guardianship. So Fundamentalism’s core values are an expression of Biblical principles. As such they will stand apart from those not having those core values. Fundamentalism lives and will do so. It may often transcend institutions and churches. Some will surrender the core values and move on. Others will discover them, pick them up, and stand firm.
It is exciting being a Dispensational, true grace, evangelistic minded, independent Fundamentalist. I have no formal alliances but have many heart alliances with good people.
Dr. Kevin Bauder, President of Central Baptist Seminary has alluded to Fundamentalism no longer being a viable movement. However, he may think it is a viable concept or idea.
Some Fundamentalists in Minnesota, especially the Twin Cities area, may feel overwhelmed by John Piper and his multi location mega church as well as several other large evangelical churches in the area. I know of one Central Seminary professor who left there a few years ago and now teaches at an Evangelical school in the area and attends John Piper’s church. He has also changed from Dispensationalism to George Ladd’s view of the kingdom and evidently “historic Premillennialism.” From my knowledge and acquaintance he is a very good man and I am sorry he changed. He was a loss to Central Baptist seminary. He also had some other problems with the position and stance of some Fundamentalists. I also would share some of his concerns. For one, I have a real problem with the Fundamentalist advocacy for nouthetic counseling and the stance against most all Psychiatry and Psychology. Most all throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water and suffer from ignorance in this area.
IMHO, in spite of differences with some Fundamentalists and Fundamentalist institutions, I see it as an ongoing movement that transcends organizations and is a necessary concept based on being faithful to Christ and His church. As I have emphasized before, the core and passion for what has been termed as Fundamentalism comes from Paul’s charge at Acts 20: 17-38. Most all evangelicals (including conservative evangelical) are too indifferent and lack the desire to protect churches and institutions from the insidious ongoing attack by wolves from within and without. They shy away from the struggle and costs of such guardianship. So Fundamentalism’s core values are an expression of Biblical principles. As such they will stand apart from those not having those core values. Fundamentalism lives and will do so. It may often transcend institutions and churches. Some will surrender the core values and move on. Others will discover them, pick them up, and stand firm.
It is exciting being a Dispensational, true grace, evangelistic minded, independent Fundamentalist. I have no formal alliances but have many heart alliances with good people.
Discussion