SBC Executive Committee plans don't quite comply with the messengers and task force

"After a tumultuous and disappointing Executive Committee meeting . . . . Some have suggested the use of the nuclear option, to remove every EC Trustee who voted against Jared Wellman’s motion to waive privilege." - SBC Voices

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WallyMorris's picture

Although sexual abuse is certainly an important concern, the SBC has other problems which they are ignoring. I was recently in Kenya, and the SBC churches in Kenya and other countries routinely allow speaking in tongues and female pastors. What you see in the SBC in America is different from the SBC in other countries.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

kirkedoyle's picture

Wally, I don't think you're intending to imply that someone speaking in tongues or a woman preaching is worse than sexual abuse, but your post certainly does that.  

Bert Perry's picture

Rachael Denhollander has been commenting on this a bit on her Twitter feed.  For her, it boils down to the question "what is more important--insurance coverage or people?"

The way I'm reading her comments is that if you don't fight a claim to the bitter end, no matter how clear your organization's fault is, then the insurance company doesn't cover your loss.  I don't know how to fix that--more or less, if one waives privilege, and those documents reveal a wrong committed (say sexual assault/rape) against someone who wants to sue, that means the organization (church/association/whatever) is on the hook for the settlement.

That may be exactly the right decision, and what I've seen from following these things over the past few years does seem to indicate that people might be willing to settle for a lot less money if a real apology and corrective action were provided.  But there does appear to be a risk there.

Perhaps one way to start addressing things is to persuade insurers that their liabilities could actually be less if they back off from "scorched earth" in these regards--it still might require churches to assume a bigger deductible, but long term, unless we get these things out in the open, this is going to fester and worsen for a while.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

WallyMorris's picture

I am simply saying that the SBC has a wide range of problems it must confront Biblically. A denomination/church can have a perfect record/position on abuse, but if it also approves speaking in tongues and female pastors, then that church/denomination is violating Scripture in other areas. Strong tendency today to make how a church handles abuse THE determining factor in societal approval. I suggest there is much more to consider.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

Bert Perry's picture

Wally, let's suppose that the subject at hand was in fact women preachers at SBC churches in Africa.  What would your response be if I brought up the SBC's sexual abuse scandals?

I would hope (no kidding!) that you would point out that I was diverting attention from the subject at hand.  We really don't need to say "squirrel" when there are any number of serious issues at the SBC that deserve attention, do we?  We might lump a couple of issues together if we believe they're related, but often, it's really better to deal with things one at a time.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

WallyMorris's picture

I'm not diverting attention from "the subject". I specifically mentioned that "the subject" is certainly an important concern. Simply stating that the SBC has several serious problems it must confront, especially in other countries where churches are part of the SBC.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

Joeb's picture

No one wants to hear the details of the atrocious stuff that STONE allegedly did in shielding Hannah Kate Williams's SBC Pastor Daddy from prosecution.  That's alright I'm going to just sit back and watch the show as the Lord takes apart all the Christian Right Churches and Sinful Educational Institutions.  The reckoning is here coming just as Ed Stetzer and Tim Keller had warned.  If you think young people are ditching the White Evangelical Churches now just wait until the SBC Investigation gets done along with the Lawsuits at Liberty along with Trump and his buddies going to jail.    

Bert Perry's picture

Mrs. Denhollander is having a lot more good stuff to say.  The bummer is that she's limited to 280 characters per comment on Twitter. Question for the SBC is whether they want to clean things up now, or whether they want to wait and go full BSA.

(the second choice is not recommended for obvious reasons)

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Joeb's picture

These guys are being exposed left and right for their criminality.  Bert is right.  Hopefully sanity and doing the right thing will rule the day.  If it smokes some Pastors and Leaders as it happens so be it.   They should have not done what they did in the first place.  The Lord will very much honor them for coming clean and repenting.  BJU did it and they're  looking like heroes now and have become one of the few heralds for Christ in these hectic times.  God Bless Them and Dr Petitt.  

Jay's picture

Dr. Pettit doesn't have anything to do with this.

My guess about this is that the top 3 or 4 names on the EC (Floyd, Stone, Martin and someone I can't recall) are the ones who are the real issue and who have a ton to hide.  The adamant opposition to ANY work being done on this front is indicative that they would like nothing more than for this to go away.

As for penalties and liability...those are the consequences for your sin.  They'll get little sympathy from me considering the things that women like Jen Lyell have alleged and documented. As I learned in college and seminary - "You can choose your sin, but you cannot choose the consequences of your sin."

It's a high stakes round for sure, and it reminds me of Joshua's charge to Achan:

“Now Joshua said to Achan, “My son, I beg you, give glory to the Lord God of Israel, and make confession to Him, and tell me now what you have done; do not hide it from me.”

‭‭Joshua‬ ‭7:19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Joeb's picture

Dr Petitt has nothing to do with problems at BJU but everything to do with their recovery.  I hope that clarifies it.  My point BJU did the right thing overall.   Compared to the SBC Executive Comittee it's been nothing but the opposite.  These folks who have been dodging the victims/advocates for years need to be exposed.  It took Hannah Kate Williams and siblings complaint to break the bank and the Bad Guys are still resisting. Hannah gets death threats from even a Pastor and while at the place of the meeting she is told by a Board member that the business of the SBC is more important then the SBC Victims' Complaints.  
 

BJU resisted the investigation initially but eventually allowed it by GRACE.  To my knowledge to other institution has done this besides New Tribes.  The rest like ABWE used the White Washing Machine.  So credit should be given to where credit is due.  When your the only man standing who did that to me it deserves KUDOS considering the outstanding allegations against Liberty Cedarville Masters etc. 

WallyMorris's picture

Interesting that some people make how people respond to sexual abuse THE number 1 criteria for Biblical orthodoxy, while ignoring other problems.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

Joeb's picture

Wally you make a good point.  When your talking about all that sinful Trumpism Christian Nationalism Patriarchy and Purity Baloney in the church. Your Right Wally.  They should be extinguished first.  Especially death threats by Pastors for Political Reasons and teaching it's okay to kill your fellow American in church because they rigged that election ie Dolbert and Cauthorne.  

Jay's picture

Interesting that some people make how people respond to sexual abuse THE number 1 criteria for Biblical orthodoxy, while ignoring other problems.

I seem to recall something Jesus said about pulling motes out of people's eyes when there are logs in our own.  Maybe I read that wrong.

When the association between "Southern Baptists" and "rape" and "abuse" in society is higher than "Southern Baptists" and "gospel", we should probably try to do something about that.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

T Howard's picture

I'm watching this very closely as I'm considering pastoring a local SBC church in a nearby town. The church elders asked me about my familiarity with the SBC. I told them I was somewhat familiar with the SBC, but that I despised the politics that went on in the convention and abhorred how the SBC has handled past sexual abuse issues.

The elders agreed, but they were most interested in learning my position on Proposition 9.

 

Bert Perry's picture

Wally, since when does Scripture tell us we can only address what you think is the most important issue?  As I seem to remember things, Moses and Paul actually gave us lists of unacceptable behaviors that were worth taking action on, and if Israel and the Church did not take action, God would judge them.  God does not go the Pareto Principle plus and say that we have to figure out what our biggest problem is and then devote resources to only that problem.

And then you've got "little" matters like "people aren't going to come to your churches and come ot Christ if they believe their kids are likely to be raped by the leadership while other leaders look the other way".  Like Jay says (welcome back, Jay), sexual assault is a capital crime in the Old Testament, and if the world starts to associate our churches (SBC or otherwise) more with sexual assault than with the Gospel, we have a problem we need to fix.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

WallyMorris's picture

Fascinating how people misunderstand plain English. My first post in this discussion stated that sexual abuse is certainly an important concern. Anyone who doesn't understand that statement should take an English refresher course. My point is very simple: I find it interesting and disturbing that many who focus so much on sexual abuse seem uninterested and unconcerned about other significant problems, such as the growing number of female pastors/preachers in the SBC (especially in other countries) and the growing acceptance of speaking in tongues in the SBC. Contrary to Bert, I never said the topics I mentioned were "the most important issue". Paul also gave "lists" of pastoral qualifications, so if someone wishes to debate the number and type of "lists", I am sure we can find many of them. I also find it disturbing that many who post opinions about sexual assault in SBC churches seem to think they know all the facts and don't mind pontificating about the "evil SBC". It seems that people are very selective about what they call "evil".

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

Bert Perry's picture

Wally, three people on this thread, myself included, have confronted you on this.  Reality is that the understanding of any language, even English, is that if you bring up topics B & C when the discussion is about topic A, that would ordinarily indicate that you want to divert attention from topic A, and that you most likely think topics B & C are more important.

That's simply how the English language is understood, Wally, and a pastor like yourself ought to understand this instinctively.  There are numerous places in Scripture where the tactic is used--one being where the rich young man wants to justify himself.  You really can't understand many places in Scripture without understanding this basic rule of conversational etiquette.

And really, your most recent comment justifies the assertion that you really consider things like people in Africa speaking in tongues and preaching without a Y chromosome to be as, or more, important than this.  Brother, that is in itself evidence that too many people in our circles really don't take this kind of thing seriously.  It's a sign that there are a bunch of people in our own associations who are going to take IFBs, the GARBC, Converge, and the SBC to go "full BSA".  

And that perceived "full BSA" is leading to a "theological deconstruction" movement where thousands are saying "enough of this, I'm an 'ex-vangelical' now....if the Gospel doesn't compel us to take these things seriously, what good is it?".  It's a 21st century case of Romans 2:24.

Doesn't get much bigger than that, Wally.  Let's try to keep on topic.  Yes, there is a reason I take this more seriously than someone pretending to preach in Africa without a Y chromosome.  Yes, there is a reason I take this more seriously than someone speaking in tongues in Africa.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Bert Perry's picture

Mrs. Denhollander is on something of a "rant" today, and it's a work of beauty. Brothers, read this.  Understand a little bit about something that 25% of girls and 16% of boys (by best estimate) are going through.  Those who have not been through it very often know people who have. 

She's telling us that the biggest thing for a lot of victims is NOT a big cash payout.  It's repentance and change.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.