Guinness uses "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms" in "Empty Chair" commercial

[Mark_Smith]

I am not a Christian (or I am) and I drink cuz its fun and I want to do and you can’t stop me. Besides, didn’t Jesus make wine?

Well that would be a non-Christian view wouldn’t it!

I’m looking at the cultural impact of alcohol and how that affected using this hymn in the commercial.

My take is that the hymn is for starters good music, and for those who know the tune, it brings in the element of faith where one may infer that God has answered the prayers of the patrons, and especially the bartender, to bring the soldier home. It’s deeply reverent in that way. Not a sign of our culture’s idolization of alcohol at all, as the place has windows that open to the street, no lewd posters, no neon signs, and patrons are showing respect for the proprietress. In other words, they’re not going there to get drunk, but to be with friends, to celebrate, to comisserate, to contemplate. In that way, it’s a lot like the wedding at Cana or the welcome home party for the prodigal son.

On a scale of Bug Light to the wine at Cana, I rank it an “extra stout.” It’s pretty good, and a lot of people in our churches ought to contemplate the wisdom of being satisfied with a pint instead of guzzling down a double big gulp of Mountain Dew. Really, if we want to talk about an idolatry we ought to be dealing with, let’s talk about the idolatry of excess in general, not just with regards to liquor, don’t you think?

Really, people have been using hymns in popular entertainment for a long, long time, and in our culture today, and we really ought to be fairly happy that for once, the music is being used pretty reverently.

“you couldn’t drink the ‘fruit of the vine’ nine months after grape harvest if it wasn’t fermented in those days.”

This statement is false.

Ancient people had a number of ways to preserve unfermented wine or grape juice. They were not nearly as ignorant as many today think they were.

At any time of the year they had a choice of alcoholic or nonalcoholic wine. Nonalcoholic wine was actually easier for them to produce and preserve, than alcoholic wine.

It’s a shame when we think for a job well done you deserve to take a recreational mind-altering drug.

David R. Brumbelow

[David R. Brumbelow] It’s a shame when we think for a job well done you deserve to take a recreational mind-altering drug

Let’s be honest Dave, you’re one (class A in my chart above) that believes even one drink subjects one to mind alteration. You’re also one who believes that you know more than doctors who sometimes advise patients to drink moderately for their health. You’re welcome to your view but it is fringe!

Are you so isolated that you are unaware that some people drink in moderation and their minds are not altered!

David, I’m sorry, but you are wrong in your estimate that there was a non-alcoholic drink made from grapes in Bible times. Acts 2:13 notes that the apostles were accused of being drunk on new wine, and other references make very clear that the “new wine” was alcoholic—Isaiah 24:7, Hosea 4:11, Joel 1:5, Zechariah 9:17, Matthew 9:17, Mark 2:22, Luke 5:37-8. It wasn’t aged and dry, but it was alcoholic, and hence people got “merry” when they drank it.

We know this also from science; the white powder on grapes (all fruits really) is yeast from the air, the same yeast that bakers use in sourdough. So far from being easier to make grape juice that would keep, you’d need to do two things that were unknown until the 19th century A.D.; pasteurization (1862) and canning (1806). Prior to this, all fruits not consumed in season would be either dried or made into wines, ciders, and (my name!) peary. Now take a look at Luke 5:37-39 and tell me how you’d sterilize a wineskin without destroying the proteins that hold it together.

Bibilcally, we also know that people preferred the more aged, more completely fermented wines—see Luke 5:39, so even had they had the technology, good luck persuading them to use it. It was simply easier, and tastier, to crush the grapes into juice, put it into a wineskin, and wait.

I have no objection to those who abstain out of respect for the alcoholic, or because they don’t want to be associated with the kind of things you see in too many bars. I get that. But please; if you’re going to claim that the ancients drank unfermented juices out of season, you’ve got to have evidence that they knew and understood canning and pasteurization, and had the materials necessary to do it. I’ve seen no evidence they did, and the Bible speaks very clearly against this idea, and if we believe the first fundamental (inerrancy of Scripture), we need to understand that the fruit of the vine, when drunk, was wine.

[Jim]

David R. Brumbelow wrote:

It’s a shame when we think for a job well done you deserve to take a recreational mind-altering drug

Let’s be honest Dave, you’re one (class A in my chart above) that believes even one drink subjects one to mind alteration. You’re also one who believes that you know more than doctors who sometimes advise patients to drink moderately for their health. You’re welcome to your view but it is fringe!

Are you so isolated that you are unaware that some people drink in moderation and their minds are not altered!

Hi Jim,

I’ll address this post to you but offer others to think in biblical categories. Does the bible speak of the mind being altered or is it the evil heart, when drunken, producing depraved thoughts?

Well it is the later. Things such as alcohol cannot change one’s “mind.” Substances whether alcohol or other things are outside of us and should not be used as a scapegoat by transferring qualities to them such as “mind altering” when the substances do no such thing. These perverse thoughts spoken of in Proverbs (23.29-35) derive from human fallen minds.

Attributing qualities such as mind-altering to substances is just theological error. It is better to think of effects that alcohol produces as that: effects. The person is the one in control by putting their mouths to the glass or bottle and drinking it. They should control themselves just like in anything else. The abstinence model of alcohol control is not a biblical one either. The only abstinence from alcohol, in my thinking, should be from a voluntary fasting from enjoyment of these gifts given by God. It is commendable to fast from earthly enjoyments if it is from the heart and knowledgeable as to what one is doing. However the AA model of alcohol abstinence as control is not spiritual fasting but an attempt of controlling appetites by self-effort (as far I as see it, despite all the God talk). The spiritual life of a believer empowers them to self control. It is one of the fruits of the Spirit, enough said.

Bert Perry ,

Actually, ancient people had multiple ways of preserving unfermented wine. Just because we don’t know those methods, doesn’t mean they did not know.

They accomplished this without pasteurization and refrigeration. Although, at times they came very close to pasteurization.

Methods used in Bible times to preserve unfermented wine.

1. Boiling down fresh wine to a thick consistency that would not spoil or ferment. When ready to drink, they simply added water. This thick, strong wine (grape molasses, pekmez, vincotto) was also used for cooking. It was sometimes mixed with milk.

I have some of this grape molasses. Although it says to refrigerate after opening, I purposely opened it and kept it at room temperature. After over two years it was still fresh, unspoiled, and unfermented.

2. The grape harvest lasted six months and certain type grapes would keep fresh for months. These grapes could be pressed into wine at any time of the year (Genesis 40:11).

3. Dried grapes or raisins were re-hydrated and pressed into fresh un-intoxicating wine, a practice used by many Jews right up to modern times. Ancient warriors were issued cakes of dried grapes to make their own wine as needed.

4. Nonalcoholic wine was also preserved with salt and lactic fermentation.

“Ancient Wine and the Bible” goes into great detail, quoting ancient and modern sources, on these methods.

There is also a little more on this at:

http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2010/10/preserving-unfermented-wine…

David R. Brumbelow

The real issue for you is not your views (which are well known) but rather will you tolerate views of others that have reached a differing opinion. I’m not talking about unsaved drunks that disagree with you, I’m talking about men and women who love the Lord and His Word, and have studied the issue carefully and have reached a different conclusion. I value your scholarship and accept your decision to be a teetotaler. Will you accept that there are Christians who love Christ, drink in moderation, and are careful not to offend? This request is in the spirit of the teaching of Romans 14

For mind-altering effects of alcohol see:

Proverbs 20:1

Proverbs 23:29-35

Also check with

Centers for Disease Control

American Council on Alcohol Problems

Law Enforcement

One drink does alter your mind and your judgment.

The government is now putting out commercials saying, “Buzzed Driving is Drunk Driving.”

David R. Brumbelow

I would ask the Christian who thinks that he is free to drink alcohol responsibly to consider what drinking alcohol means in our culture. What it would mean to a 9 year boy who’s father is a drunk to see a pastor drink a Bud Light. For a Christian elder to drink at a Pub and be seen by a person struggling to stay sober. An abused spouse to see a church leader buy a 6-pack at the grocery store. Etc…

In short, alcohol is a cultural disease in America, not just a personal one.

I know! Let’s all talk about it and maybe we’ll all change each others’ minds!

Jim asked me,

“The real issue for you is not your views (which are well known) but rather will you tolerate views of others that have reached a differing opinion.”

I don’t see that as an issue for me at all. I am simply stating my biblical convictions. The other side is presented here; I believe abstinence from recreational drugs should also be presented here. That is what I am doing.

Yes, there are Bible-believing Christians who accept moderate drinking. I just happen to believe they are seriously wrong on this issue.

The fact that I am here and participating shows I must be somewhat tolerant, for plenty here disagree with me.

I have never accused those not believing in abstinence from beverage alcohol, of being non-Christian or sub-Christian, and have not called them names. I try not to get personal, just to disagree and state my beliefs.

David R. Brumbelow

David, the fact of the matter is that the Bible does list the tools needed to make alcoholic wine, but does not reference the methods whereof you speak. Hence I am constrained by the Scriptures to believe that when the Bible speaks of wine making “merry” and making “drunk”, that we are talking about ordinary, alcoholic wine.

This is especially the case when I consider the level of difficulty involved in filling one’s cistern with wine jars (again, the Bible records wineskins), boiling off the water in wine with scarce wood, and the like. It would make sense for a rich man to do that with a small portion of his crop for sweetening, or for Christians in Muslim controlled land to do so with small amounts of grapes to avoid being killed, but it makes no sense for common Israeli farmers in Bible times to do this.

And again, if they did predominantly do this, the Bible would record it, and it doesn’t—not even the story of Joseph’s cupbearer pressing the grapes into the cup. No sane cupbearer would ever do this because this would result in a sticky mess, not a beverage. It’s a picture of the vintner’s art, not a real picture of winemaking—as we can see when Bacchus, god of wine and drunkenness, is pictured doing this. I would hope we could agree that the god who was worshipped in drunken orgies was not serving grape juice, no?

[David R. Brumbelow]

Jim asked me,

“The real issue for you is not your views (which are well known) but rather will you tolerate views of others that have reached a differing opinion.”

I don’t see that as an issue for me at all. I am simply stating my biblical convictions. The other side is presented here; I believe abstinence from recreational drugs should also be presented here. That is what I am doing.

Yes, there are Bible-believing Christians who accept moderate drinking. I just happen to believe they are seriously wrong on this issue.

The fact that I am here and participating shows I must be somewhat tolerant, for plenty here disagree with me.

I have never accused those not believing in abstinence from beverage alcohol, of being non-Christian or sub-Christian, and have not called them names. I try not to get personal, just to disagree and state my beliefs.

David R. Brumbelow

I appreciate your attitude!