Why capitalism is worth conserving (and its new populist critics on the right are wrong)
“Whether the critiques come from politicians like Josh Hawley or pundits like Tucker Carlson, free-market conservatives are increasingly scolded for being overly committed to economic freedom. To no surprise, the Left continues its own critiques as it always has, spurring a strange, unspoken alliance among otherwise ideological foes.” - Acton
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[Jim]This crime has nothing to do w capitalism
No crime. It is totally legal for companies to capture retirement funds (ESPECIALLY PROFIT SHARING) in certain situations. Totally legal. That is what is wrong with capitalism. Greed. The thing that makes it work too often gets out of control. And… corporations work for shareholders rather than being interested in caring for employees. Too many tell you to leave if you don’t like the pay or whatever…
Many of you have idealized ideas about capitalism. These guys leave towns with nothing so they can make millions somewhere else. They deliberately pay the minimum. They refuse to upgrade all the time. Pass off health insurance costs to employees.
A few years ago Boeing suddenly ended a multi-Billion dollar contract that my state senators had negotiated with the US military in an effort them to keep jobs here. After sealing the deal Boeing announced a move to South Carolina… the senators (and employees were furious.) Thousands were left unemployed. To this day that area has not recovered. The word of Boeing meant nothing. More money could be made in SC so they moved.
This kind of things happens all the time!
Buyer motive: Always the best product at the lowest price
Seller motive: The highest price for my product
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Labor: 2 equal opportunities … which will pay me more
Manufacturer: The lowest labor costs … the lowest material costs
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Explains: Car manufacturing in the South … Mexico
[Mark_Smith] More money could be made in SC so they moved.This kind of things happens all the time!
This makes perfect sense. Boeing competes w Airbus. It’s healthy and good
My mother worked for a regional grocery store chain for years. Due to the generosity of the founder, she was able to have a rather healthy retirement fund. … The company legally raided the retirement fund of the newly acquired stores in KS. My mom was left with nothing.
That’s a sad story but as others have pointed out, this has nothing to do with capitalism. It is a good reason why pensions are a bad idea. Don’t leave your money with someone else. This has happened to other people who have pensions rather than their own retirement funds.
They deliberately pay the minimum.
Most people do this when they shop. Why is it wrong for employers to shop for labor this way? No one has to sell their labor for minimum. It’s all negotiable.
They refuse to upgrade all the time. Pass off health insurance costs to employees.
Again, this is all negotiable.
This is related to Joeb’s comment that “Unfortunately people on the lower end of the pay spectrum can hardly survive in the West Coast areas and the Northeast. Sadly Virtue is lacking.”
This has nothing to do with virtue. You don’t consider it a lack of virtue when you buy gas at a place where it is a nickel cheaper than the place across the street. You don’t consider it a lack of virtue when you buy milk for $1.78 instead of $2.99. This in spite of the fact that you are cutting into someone’s wages when you do that, and in fact, if enough people do it, you will cut into someone’s job.
The reality is that no one has to live on the West Coast or Northeast. This is a big country and people are entitled to live wherever they want. But if you choose an expensive place, you can’t complain that it is expensive. You knew that when you made the choice.
How is it the actions of CEO’s and boards have nothing to do with capitalism?
At the same time, people are supposed to go around scanning to save a nickel on milk?
A nickel isn’t the problem. The problem is rent that’s “too darn high” to quote one colorful NYC critic. The problem is health care costs that destroy you for one ER visit. The problem is stagnant wages. The problem is a lack of retirement support as we look out onto the future.
[Mark_Smith] Since we are telling stories of the heroic nature of American capitalists, let me tell another. My mother worked for a regional grocery store chain for years. Due to the generosity of the founder, she was able to have a rather healthy retirement fund. That man’s children did not want to run the company. They wanted to party instead. So he sold out to Alpha Beta, a large chain. Within a few months there were riots in LA, the home base of Alpha Beta. A few stores were destroyed. The company legally raided the retirement fund of the newly acquired stores in KS. My mom was left with nothing.All hail capitalism! Freedom at its best.
[Mark_Smith] How is it the actions of CEO’s and boards have nothing to do with capitalism?…
What you describe with your mom’s pension (I wonder if they declared bankruptcy in some way?) is HORRIBLE. She was promised money for working, she worked and she did not get it. That’s pretty much exactly what Amos was talking about - workers getting cheated out of their fair wages by “fat cows” (landowners).
But that was not capitalism that did that to her - it happened to her in the overall climate of capitalism - but it should not happen in capitalism. I can see this is painful for you, so I imagine you shaking your head and thinking, “If it happened in capitalism, it was capitalism.”
The bottom line is that if you are depending on a pension, then you are depending on other people to do the right thing and especially in the past, your pension is probably bound to the viability of the company that employed you.
https://www.investopedia.com/4-major-pension-problems-and-the-laws-that…
I guess I understand why you blame the corporation that bought out the store. But it seems like [perhaps] the precipitating event for this tragedy was the riotous arson that happened in LA. Was it the owners who took the pensions, or the creditors in their bankruptcy dealings?
Mark, if you remove capitalism from this, then what? The government makes pensions? Social Security is terribly underfunded because lawmakers are only interested in making voters happy today. Handing the handling of pensions from bosses to the US Government is going to make it way way way way worse.
[Larry] That’s a sad story but as others have pointed out, this has nothing to do with capitalism. It is a good reason why pensions are a bad idea. Don’t leave your money with someone else. This has happened to other people who have pensions rather than their own retirement funds.
I agree with Larry, here, BUT when a company is saying, “You have this pension,” IMO you really should be able to trust that. I would say to anyone in her situation, a pension is NOT reliable and you should have your own retirement plan. It’s similar to the idea that buyer beware puts the responsibility for a purchase on the consumer, but also a consumer should be able to trust a seller. And a person who is told they have a pension, should be able to rely on it.
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Again, I’d like to get back to the Scriptures and the point of Amos’s “let justice roll down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream,” is fair (justice) honest treatment of employees (capitalism with righteous honest bosses) is like rain. It provides for everyone to prosper like rain allows life to grow.
In Canada, I’m pretty sure these funds are vested and not accessible by the corporations. I think maybe that came about after horror stories such as Mark described
but I agree, capitalism itself isn’t to blame. We live in a more or less capitalistic society, but we have a lot of government interference, which corrupts the marketplace. I don’t mind regulation that controls exploitation, but regulation that is a thin excuse for government gouging out more taxes and/or dictating winners and losers in the marketplace will skew the system and make it more expensive for everyone
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
[Don Johnson]In Canada, I’m pretty sure these funds are vested and not accessible by the corporations. I think maybe that came about after horror stories such as Mark described
https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/retirement/erisa
There’s something else going on w Mark’s mom’s situation
How is it the actions of CEO’s and boards have nothing to do with capitalism?
How do they? If that happened, it sounds like to me that describe a legal and a financial problem, not an economic system problem. These things happen in other systems as well.
At the same time, people are supposed to go around scanning to save a nickel on milk?
People usually don’t do it for a nickel, but a $1.00? Sure, in combination with other things. If you are buying only a gallon of milk and two stores right next to each other with equal access are a dollar apart, you will buy at the cheaper store. And a nickel on gas? It happens every day of the week assuming the stations are close to each other. People look at sale flyers every week to see where the cheapest groceries are. And they apply that to everything.
Surely you have shopped by price before looking for the cheapest.
So again, why is it okay for you to shop for a cheap price but not employers? Labor is a commodity that is traded for money. Both sides are trying to work out the best deal.
The problem is rent that’s “too darn high” to quote one colorful NYC critic.
“Too darn high” for who? Compared to what?
It’s not too high for me because I don’t live there. If you don’t have enough money to pay the rent, then you move to a place where you can pay it. And that might be two blocks or two states away.
The problem is health care costs that destroy you for one ER visit.
This is possibly legitimate but again, it isn’t due to capitalism per se. It is due to third party payers and other factors.
The problem is stagnant wages.
But as I pointed out above, wages aren’t really stagnant.
The problem is a lack of retirement support as we look out onto the future.
Everyone has the opportunity to have retirement support. It takes discipline but everyone can do it. If you save $20 a week for 45 years at a moderate interest rate, you will have over $300,000. As you get older, you can save more than $20 a week.
For who? People, you know, average people.
Salary not stagnant: bull
System not People: bull
Try this. Attend a church with good by-laws and constitution but sketchy people. Would you say the church is good?
The alternative to capitalism as practiced right now that I am speaking of is not socialism. Capitalism can be good or bad. When it enslaved millions to increase profits it was evil. When it took advantage of the poor and their children to provide labor in factories it was evil. It does a similar thing today when it demands more and more productivity of its workers without a proportional increase in the profit.
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