What happened to the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement?
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Attending the MacDonald Lectures this year really gives me some perspective on the different strands of fundamentalism. Most folks seem to have the “Southern” strand of fundamentalism in mind when they think of “fundamentalism.” (Dr. Bauder referred to these two strands as the “Norris” and “Sword” style fundamentalism). I believe even Al Mohler, in his response to Bauder in a book on the spectrum of evangelicalism, made a crack about fundamentalism in that vein.
Both the article posted today are very critical, and seem to be critical against the southern style fundamentalism. So, in the end, when you criticize fundamentalism, you need to clarify just who you’re talking about. It seems to me that the label is just too broad to mean much. If you wrote a piece criticizing “evangelicals,” you would need to likewise define who you’re talking about. Al Mohler? Bill Hybels? Roger Olsen? Joel Osteen? There is a lot of range in these four names, just as there is quite a bit of difference between Maranatha, Hyles-Anderson, Pensacola, Detroit or Central.
Perhaps a new counterpoints book can be commissioned by Zondervan, “Four Views on the Spectrum of Fundamentalism!”
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Tyler. As Maranatha man (class of 81), there are time when I think somebody’s talking about another solar system rather than the Fundamentalism I fellowship with.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
Tyler, Excellent comments. I agree completely!
It always frustrates me when I see people lump All of fundamentalism into the same pot, stir it up, pick at the rotten parts, and then express how happy they are they left Fundyland.
To be sure there are politics and issues within the “Fundamentalists” umbrella, but the non-Fundy world has its share of its own equally disturbing problems as well. All camps are made up of imperfect humans who are pre-disposed to pride, jealousies, strife & (insert issue here).
In my opinion many people are too eager to throw the baby out with the bath water based too often on over-generalizations and extrapolations.
How often do you see someone stand in the middle and make an honest, balanced, & intelligent evaluation of both camps?
Very rarely.
How often do you see someone express they left fundamentalism because they truly felt it was what the Lord wanted them to do & without griping in some way about it?
Almost never.
I’d agree except that I’ve had lots of interaction with fundamentalists who are geographically southern but not at all like what is often thought of as southern fundamentalism. Though there does tend to be a some geographical correlations, I think it’s better to look at strong themes and customs. No time to elaborate at the moment, but I’ll try to explain what I mean later.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Aaron:
Bauder didn’t define it as “Southern” or “Northern.” That was me! His taxonomy was:
- Regular Baptist
- Conservative Baptist Movement (CBA, FBFI, etc.)
- Norris-brand fundamentalism
- Sword-style fundamentalism
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
with Bauder’s taxonomy. Though, I lump his first two into “Northern” and the last two into “East Texas” (don’t want El Paso tarred by the rhetoric coming out of Dallas).
[TylerR]Aaron:
Bauder didn’t define it as “Southern” or “Northern.” That was me! His taxonomy was:
- Regular Baptist
- Conservative Baptist Movement (CBA, FBFI, etc.)
- Norris-brand fundamentalism
- Sword-style fundamentalism
My taxonomy is more cultural rather than geographical .
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
For anybody intrigued by Bauder’s description of the four strands of fundamentalism, see lecture 4 and the accompanying PowerPoint here. Listen to the rest of the lectures, too, if Central ever figured out how to upload them correctly. Last I checked they were still messed up. How hard can it be to upload an MP3?! Preachers all over the world do it every week …
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
The author lost his credibility with me once he began deleting or not approving comments after the article that did not praise his conclusions or suggested he might be to some extent off-base. THAT is a very typical IFB reaction….silence the critics, dissenters or anyone who simply might see things differently than you see them.
There is no way that I would ever rejoin the IFB — whatever branch or sub-group they might be because of the nonsense just like that (not that there aren’t more reasons.) I’ve been in three of the four “strands” over the years. Regardless of the protestations of some of the northern strands — they might use a different lexicon and they might be a tad more civil in their discourse, but in the end — they all draw their plays from the same narrow manual and I’m not talking about the KJV. No one had dare cross them lest they be cast into outer darkness. What we see now occurring in the IFB is simply the entire movement being hoisted by their own petard. It just took longer than it should have in coming.
What happened to the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement?
When your movement can’t seem to decide on a definition of itself or even give me a reason why I should be in it (and I speak as someone who was committed to the movement when I graduated from seminary), it’s kind of hard for me to be enthusiastic about it. Especially after the consistent denigration of the ‘young fundamentalists’ from several years ago by those who claimed to the the ‘right’ fundamentalists.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Jay,
Would you call yourself an “evangelical?” So does Joel Osteen. If so, what, exactly, does the word mean?
Do you call yourself a “Biblicist?” What does that mean?
Do you call yourself a “Christian?” So does a Mormon. What does the word mean?
No matter what label you use, you have to define what you mean. I’m perfectly willing to remain a fundamentalist.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
No, no, and no.
I’ve given up, for most part, on labels like Fundamentalist or the other terms. I may throw them out on here once in a while, but I think they’re near useless anymore.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay]What happened to the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement?
When your movement can’t seem to decide on a definition of itself or even give me a reason why I should be in it (and I speak as someone who was committed to the movement when I graduated from seminary), it’s kind of hard for me to be enthusiastic about it. Especially after the consistent denigration of the ‘young fundamentalists’ from several years ago by those who claimed to the the ‘right’ fundamentalists.
Can’t you say the same then about the evangelical world? How would you propose to neatly define that entire movement?
BTW, to your point about fundamentalism giving you a reason why you should be in it, I feel the exact same way - but about the other side. I am not blind to the faults of fundamentalism - including what you speak of. But when I consistently see people on the evangelical side criticize & mock fundamentalists (by this I mean the reasonable kind, not the Hyles/Schaap kind), use incredibly horrible logic in their arguments for their side and against fundamentalists - please give me a reason again why I should join your side. The very same people that claim to be “freed from the Tyranny of Fundyland” and are now … finally in a world that truly is full of love, Christlikeness, and True Bible teaching … . are the very same people who display very little of that same, cough, love and Christlikeness in their condemnation of fundamentalists.
When your movement can’t seem to decide on a definition of itself or even give me a reason why I should be in it
Movements don’t usually “define themselves.” In my experience, other people usually start seeing patterns and so forth first and start referring to it as a movement. Eventually key influences/individuals/institutions begin to see themselves as having a relationship to a movement.
Much has been written about how movements rise and fall (though I can’t remember where at the moment), so I’m sure I’m not adding anything original here. But after a movement reaches the point of self awareness it tends to increasingly shift its focus to growing itself, then to sustaining itself. But when it began it was not about itself. It was about ideas, practices, responses to problems, etc.
So the day it becomes mostly about preserving itself, it is already on the last lap. It has lost its true reason for being. Usually it slowly winds down—with varying amounts of desperation to hang on (and varying amounts of awareness of its own death)—and is either reborn or replaced by something entirely new.
It’s OK. There is no call in Scripture to go forth and create movements. They have their use… until they don’t anymore.
(But as long as there are people who hold to the same beliefs and see the need for the same correctives to what’s happening around them… there will be “movements.”)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
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