Drinking, Cheeseburgers, and Marijuana?

I agree with Jim in that most unconverted people who drink do so in moderation. All of the Christians I know who drink do so in moderation and abstain in the presence of their brethren who don’t drink. One of them, who grew up in a family of “professional” alcoholics, will occasionally enjoy an alcoholic beverage but practices strict personal moderation, because of his personal experience and what he believes is genetic propensity.

As to pre-conceived notions one only needs to watch Milltown Pride to see the notion that someone can go from tee-toteler to chronic alcoholic in a few weeks time.

Just a quick point in response to dmicah. Excessive alcohol consumption is a major risk factor for heart disease. It’s a little bit of an oversimplification to just equate it with gluttony although I agree it’s a huge problem among Christians.

For every drunk driver (and I’ve arrested hundreds of them), there’s a thousand drinkers who didn’t get drunk. One’s choice to exceed personal physical limitations is a choice, not a lack of knowledge or awareness, i.e. we usually pig out on Thanksgiving and sit around for two days wondering why we did that…again. That’s why this boils down to wisdom, balance and moderation.

So you are confident that every person who gets drunk knew they were getting drunk, and knew exactly when they got drunk? How do you determine that? And how do you explain the people who claim not to be drunk when they are pulled over? Are they just lying to you? Have you ever pulled someone over who swears they weren’t drunk, but they are (according to legal standards)?

To say that there are a thousand non-drunk drinkers for every drunk driver is curious. Why does that matter? How is that relevant? No one is talking about that, are they? The issue isn’t numbers; it isn’t driving. It is whether or not every person knows when they personally have crossed the line. Experience tells us that at least some of them don’t. I know some of them who don’t. So while I am sure some people know what their limit is, I am not convinced everyone does. (I have no idea what mine is.)

BTW, if I recall correctly, the question was, “How do you know when you are drunk by Eph 5 standards?” Your answer appears to be, “They know.” That’s not really an answer to the question of how they know, is it?

It is pre-conceived to claim the Bible points to alcohol as evil. We’ve tread this ground before.

I don’t think it is pre-conceived in the least to read the Bible and see the warnings about alcohol and the evil it can bring. It’s revelation from God. The only pre-conception involved is that the Bible is inspired by God. That’s not to say that drinking is always sin. I don’t say that. One can drink moderately without sinning (though I think it is unwise and unnecessary). And it may even have health benefits. That’s not the issue. The issue is the general nature of alcohol that brings about evil in some cases. The Bible tells us that.

I may be on a limb on this one, but it seems like the teetotalers may not understand moderate alcohol consumption because of lack of experience. I don’t say that condescendingly. I mean if you have never consumed, or your only experience with booze was from sowing wild oats, it’s really hard to grasp how simple it is to consume a single glass of wine, or a single beer with a dinner and not be controlled by it in the least.

But aren’t you talking about something that isn’t being discussed? The question is not moderate alcohol consumption. It is whether or not all people know when they have crossed the line.

I’ll bow out here and leave the rest of it to you smart folks.

Yes I am aware of those studies. My point was that it is a non-sequitur to say look at all these people with heart disease therefore gluttony is a huge problem. There are multiple factors that cause it and I found it ironic that alcohol consumption was one of them.

So you are confident that every person who gets drunk knew they were getting drunk, and knew exactly when they got drunk? How do you determine that? And how do you explain the people who claim not to be drunk when they are pulled over? Are they just lying to you? Have you ever pulled someone over who swears they weren’t drunk, but they are (according to legal standards)?

To say that there are a thousand non-drunk drinkers for every drunk driver is curious. Why does that matter? How is that relevant? No one is talking about that, are they? The issue isn’t numbers; it isn’t driving. It is whether or not every person knows when they personally have crossed the line. Experience tells us that at least some of them don’t. I know some of them who don’t. So while I am sure some people know what their limit is, I am not convinced everyone does. (I have no idea what mine is.)

Larry

You’re pulling this drunk driving matter way out of context. The OP introduced it, and I am using it in relation to choices. It is, therefore, absolutely relevant. If the great majority of drinkers don’t get in bar fights, hit their wives or get arrested for driving while intoxicated, then it is supportive of my, and others’ assertions on this thread, that most people know their limitations. Drinking too much is a choice. I can say that no more clearly. Lack of self-control or knowledge by some is not a support of your claim that “some people don’t know.” I repeat my assertion. A person who drinks on a regular basis knows the effects of alcohol on their system. They know their limits. Those who don’t are unwise, unobservant and should not be using alcohol.

BTW, if I recall correctly, the question was, “How do you know when you are drunk by Eph 5 standards?” Your answer appears to be, “They know.” That’s not really an answer to the question of how they know, is it?

Weak willed and immature are the the ones in need of bright line rules. (not implying you asking the question means you’re weak/immature.)

It is pre-conceived to claim the Bible points to alcohol as evil. We’ve tread this ground before.

I don’t think it is pre-conceived in the least to read the Bible and see the warnings about alcohol and the evil it can bring. It’s revelation from God. The only pre-conception involved is that the Bible is inspired by God. That’s not to say that drinking is always sin. I don’t say that. One can drink moderately without sinning (though I think it is unwise and unnecessary). And it may even have health benefits. That’s not the issue. The issue is the general nature of alcohol that brings about evil in some cases. The Bible tells us that.

Evil is from the heart, not the bottle. The Bible is replete with warnings. Why is alcohol the one that gets people so riled up? If you can see the warnings, how do you miss the blessings?

I may be on a limb on this one, but it seems like the teetotalers may not understand moderate alcohol consumption because of lack of experience. I don’t say that condescendingly. I mean if you have never consumed, or your only experience with booze was from sowing wild oats, it’s really hard to grasp how simple it is to consume a single glass of wine, or a single beer with a dinner and not be controlled by it in the least.

But aren’t you talking about something that isn’t being discussed? The question is not moderate alcohol consumption. It is whether or not all people know when they have crossed the line.

Larry, this is obtuse. Moderation is the answer to your question about lines. Why must we approach this topic looking for a rule book or some formula?

If you do a Google search for the FAA rules on pilots and alcohol you will find a published statement on drinking in an attempt to warn pilots of even the minor consumption of alcohol. The rule for flying is that it is against the law to fly an airplane within eight hours of consuming any alcohol - the “bottle to throttle” rule. This is because even in small amounts, according to the FAA, alcohol affects us.

Moreover, the argument that most people know what moderation is, whether saved or lost, by looking at those who consume in a restaurant who quit before becoming intoxicated, cannot possibly be taken as real evidence, unless all do a breathalyzer to verify that they are in fact below the legal limit, which still says nothing about whether people are impaired at all. It is true that most people stop consuming publicly before they have slurred speech, or overt signs of impairment, but this is all that can really be said.

One final false analogy. This weekend Jamie Coots died. He was the star of Snake Salvation - a reality TV show based on snake handling. Snake handlers believe this is taught in the Bible, it is their right and that few people go too far (that is, they die). For me, alcohol and snaking handling are similar. Perhaps it is true that most snake handlers do so in “moderation.” But why would I wish to run the risk? I know of two pastors who both started drinking under a doctor’s orders, only to become so addicted that they both lost their ministries. Why would any thoughtful Christian want to run the unnecessary risk of handling something as dangerous as a diamondback rattler? I think I will abstain from both rattlers and rum! I need neither to live a full Christian life and both can be deadly.

To David, I look forward to reading you book!

As someone who has handled rattlesnakes (for personal enjoyment rather than in corporate worship), I am pleased to say your analogy is indeed false. :)

Also, I don’t think we want to peg moderation to a blood alcohol content standard, do we? For instance, couldn’t it be argued that someone is under .08 and still Eph 5 drunk, depending on how their .06 affects their person?

And for some interesting research I recommend: http://bloodalcoholcalculator.org/#LinkURL

According to it, I (200 lb male) could drink four glasses of wine (about a bottle) over the course of 3 hrs and my BAC would be .03 or “Not Impaired”. Can that be correct?

David Brumbelow is right on this one. Jim, you need to do more reading. Natural grape juice has numerous health benefits nearly equal to those of wine.

Does grape juice offer the same heart benefits as red wine?

Possibly. Some research studies suggest that red and purple grape juices may provide some of the same heart benefits of red wine, including:

Reducing the risk of blood clots

Reducing low-density lipoprotein (LDL, or “bad”) cholesterol

Preventing damage to blood vessels in your heart

Helping maintain a healthy blood pressure

Grapes are rich in health-protecting antioxidants, including resveratrol and flavonoids. These antioxidants are found mainly in the skin, stem, leaf and seeds of grapes, rather than in their pulp. The amount of antioxidants in grapes depends on many factors, including the kind of grape, its geographic origin and how it’s processed. Dark red and purple grapes tend to be higher in antioxidants than are white or green grapes. Likewise, the level of antioxidants such as resveratrol found in wine varies, with higher levels in red wine.

Besides grape juice, other grape products may offer health benefits, including dealcoholized wine, grape extracts and grape powder.

Keep in mind that it’s also beneficial to eat whole grapes — not just grape juice. Some research suggests that whole grapes deliver the same amount of antioxidants that are in grape juice and wine but have the added benefit of providing dietary fiber.

-Martha Grogan, M.D.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/food-and-nutrition/expert-answers/FAQ-20058529

While Christian abstainers accept medicinal drugs, could it be the Apostle Paul was recommending Timothy drink unfermented wine for his stomach and often infirmities? After all, grape juice it is filled with nutrition and health benefits. The word Paul used for wine could refer to either alcoholic or nonalcoholic wine.

Jeff Straub,

Thanks. I’m honored you plan to read “Ancient Wine and the Bible.” I’ve attempted to gather a large amount of reference material and answers concerning the Bible and alcohol. I pray it will be found helpful.

I did not mention it before, but you wrote a very good article on “Drinking, Cheeseburgers, and Marijuana.” I appreciate your stand.

Marsilius,

Thanks as well.

David R. Brumbelow

Jim,

I agree. I drink unfermented wine / grape juice on a regular basis. Also drink nonalcoholic shekar (cider) and un-pasteurized shekar vinegar. They can do wonders for health and the un-pasteruized vinegar for my stomach.

Okay, I said I was done, but … Let me jump back in here for a moment.

I mean, you could turn around and apply the same thing to the gluttony analogy: clearly many people aren’t aware that they’ve eaten too much, either because of consumption habits that have dulled natural sensitivity or perhaps for physical reasons (obviously avoiding food isn’t an option). Whatever the case, they’re the exception, not the rule. It would be best for either of those two groups to avoid alcohol altogether.

I agree that we could apply the same to the gluttony analogy, though again, I am not sure there are a lot of people destroying homes and lives from overindulging on cheeseburgers. The Bible doesn’t warn us about a cheeseburger that moveth itself aright or makes the eyes red.

But more to the point, I am not sure how you know they are the exception rather than the rule (is there some study or something?), and more importantly, why does that matter? If they are exceptions, then doesn’t that prove my point? That some people (i.e., the exceptions you admit to) don’t know when they have crossed the line?

The question was simple: How do people know when they cross the line? So far, the best we have is, “They do.” That’s not an answer to a “how” question.

So, ignore the rest of it, and tell us how would you answer someone who asks, “How do I know I have crossed the line into Eph 5 drunkenness?”