Six Degrees of Separation

Fred Moritz wrote:

The question at issue is: does Scripture ever instruct believers and local churches to separate from disobedient brothers? I refer to Romans 16:17 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14, 15. You may call that secondary separation, or perhaps more accurately separation from a Christian brother as distinguished from separation from apostates (2 Cor 6:14-7:1). The fact remains that such separation is taught in the Word of God.

I think almost all of us agree with this statement. The question I’ve had regards the way secondary separation is practiced.

BTW, I had the opportunity to have lunch with Dr. Pickering once. When I heard that he had done some post-graduate work in Scotland in the early 1950’s, I asked him if he had observed any of the Revival on the Isle of Lewis that was happening at the time. He grew strangely quiet and said that it was one of the most wonderful and memorable things he had ever seen but he rarely talked about it because the enthusiasm and ecumenical atmosphere that surrounded the revival was difficult to explain.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

[TylerR]

After reading the article, there’s really only one thing to do. Yes, I must separate from the author! Consider it done …

  • Actually, I need to separate from anyone who clicks “like”, too - because if I don’t, I’m condoning their wickedness
  • Actually, come to think of it, I need to separate from Jim, if he agrees with the article - because he posted it.
  • If Jim agrees with the article, then I must also separate from SharperIron if it doesn’t repudiate him.
  • If anyone won’t follow me and separate from SharperIron, then I must separate from them, too.

Oh, where will it end?

I accidentally clicked “like” on your comment. Now I’m contemplating separating my fingers from my hand. ;)

Go for it. As our Savior said, “it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire,” (Mt 18:8).

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

I would slightly disagree with Pastor Teis’ thesis that secondary separation is a causal element of the decline of the IFB movement.

Separation (and its various degrees) should be practiced. In terms of doctrine, if a ministry that identifies as Christian preaches a false gospel, we have no choice but to dissociate. If a fellow church or brother in Christ extends Christian fellowship to the apostate ministry, the relationship is altered negatively. There are numerous occasions of instruction that teach personal separation.

My opinion on why the IFB is declining is not because of its doctrinal convictions or standards (music, drinking, dress, etc), but the manner in which separation is practiced.

The problem as I see it is too many have substituted a militant defense of the faith with a belligerent practice of separation. The belligerent practice of separation has led to very cynical, paranoid ministries that are not naturally open or outwardly focused, and those ministries tend not to reproduce themselves. I truly believe that regenerate believers are receptive to principals of abstinence, modesty, and musical moderation and that these standards are not why people are leaving the movement. They are leaving due to the earth-scorching attitude that is often exhibited the instant any of these subjects are broached.

Meanwhile, the militant defense of the faith is being largely ignored within IFB circles. When practiced with a positive, patient spirit, even a militant defense of the faith can be highly attractive and compelling. This is a gospel opportunity that most IFB churches are missing.

John B. Lee

What are the categories of separation? The scriptures (particularly the ones Mike Harding referenced) have to do with both doctrine and practice.

What are the boundaries of separation? Doctrinal issues, but at what level? Bible versions? Non-gospel issues? Practice, but what practices, and to what extent do we separate? Music, worldliness, morality?

What are the applications of separation? Is the goal restoration? How can we adequately scripturally “separate” from someone who is not a member of our church fellowship where we have less “jurisdiction”? When does separation go too far (keep in mind that Paul had to tell the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians to receive back one they had separated from due to his instructions in 1 Corinthians)?

The author does make a more local application (many in the north have little to do with the SBC), but the article and the comments do help advance the discussion.

Steve, my paraphrased excerpt (somewhere above) from my Seminary training helps answer this question:

  • Is it an explicit or clearly implicit teaching of Scripture? Then, separate.
  • Is it just a principle, not a didactic teaching which can be clearly proven? Meh, it depends - maybe just agree to disagree. Of course, this assumes you have the ability to fairly look at the other side, and concede they may have a point. That’s a rare gift. That’s why, in my secular field, most people aren’t good investigators - their bias’ get in the way of the facts.
  • Is it a preference or opinion? Get a life and deal with it.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

There have been some very good comments. Let me add a few.

1. What are we separating from? Sin

2. What are we separating unto? Christlikeness / holiness

We have become very good at parsing the when and the what, but we tend to forget the point the writers of Scripture were teaching. There is a difference between separating from false teachers compared to sinful, disobedient brothers. False teachers need to be immediately called out and identified. We are to warn others about them. We separate from disobedient brothers because of their sin. There are to particular aspects we should observe in the New Testament. (1) We separate because of serious, persistent sin. This could be because the individual has fallen into false doctrine. More often it was the result of gross immorality. (2) Separation from an erring brother was always the last resort, when everything else had failed. It causes great sorrow when it occurs.

We may choose not to work with someone because we do not entirely agree with their methods or their doctrine. We can still fellowship with them even if we don’t see eye to eye missionally. Breaking fellowship because somebody attended a T4G conference is not what the Biblical writers had in mind.

mmarprelate wrote:

We may choose not to work with someone because we do not entirely agree with their methods or their doctrine. We can still fellowship with them even if we don’t see eye to eye missionally. Breaking fellowship because somebody attended a T4G conference is not what the Biblical writers had in mind

Agreed. This is where some flavors of fundamentalism ran off the rails a long time ago. Rather than return to the track of sanity, they continue to plow ahead into the wilderness. As one particularly wicked lady I once knew used to say (as a euphemism for a more emphatic manner of speech), “Well, bless their hearts!”

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

If you’ve ever gotten the silent treatment from some fundamentalists because:

- You gave someone a copy of “The 9 Marks of a Healthy Church”

- You attended a Weekender at CHBC and were blessed and said so

- You spoke positively of T4G

- You quoted a Getty or Kauflin hymn in a sermon

- You’ve displayed John MacArthur books on your bookshelf

- You’ve used a Tim Keller quote

You know what some of us are talking about.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Per the comment at 1:31 pm, it strikes me that when the stated justification for separation is a moral or cultural issue, the ultimate cause still ought to be some violation of the Gospel, really. For example, if I separate from a pastor who has a mistress, the ultimate cause is that that “pastor” is misrepresenting the nature of Christ and the Church by his adultery.

And that brings up JBL’s point about the BFI’s main problem not being the cultural issues, and my response is “yes and no”. Yes, it’s definitely not that the stands themselves, which a huge portion of evangelicals live in their lives, but no, it is about how they argue them. If we use bad logic to come to these conclusions, and in the process contradict things we know from Scripture, we are in fact infringing the first Fundamental and Sola Scriptura.

And that ought to be worth separating over, really.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Farewell, brother. I am separating form you:

  • Tim Keller supports BioLogos
  • Tim Keller is a Calvinist
  • Therefore, by quoting him, you support Calvinist theistic evolutionists

Goodbye.

  • I will also separate from anyone who doesn’t immediately repudiate Ron.
  • If Ron repents, and displays fruits meet for authentic fundamentalism, then I may fellowship with him again
  • If I do this, I will still not fellowship with those of you who I separated from when I first separated from Ron. You, too, must be zealous therefore and repent.
  • If you repent, I will re-establish fellowship with you.
  • If, by chance, you separated from me because you disagreed with my separation from Ron, hopefully, when I re-establish fellowship with Ron, you, likewise, will re-establish fellowship with me.
  • If you fail to do this, after I have brought forth fruits meet for authentic fundamentalism, then I will separate from you.
  • However, realize that I may have already separated from SharperIron for not repudiating Ron at the very beginning, so I will first have to re-establish fellowship with SI before I can come back to SI, at which time I’ll seek to re-establish fellowship with ya’ll.
  • If this doesn’t work, then I’ll stay separated. If you wish to re-establish fellowship with me in the meantime, please contact me through an intermediary whom I haven’t yet separated from.

If anyone disagrees with this process, I’ll separate from you, too. But, if you repent, then I will re-establish fellowship. If you won’t do so, I’ll separate again.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Funny that you mention that. I was at an FBFI meeting this spring/summer, a regional meeting, and in private conversation with several men we talked about John Piper and John MacArthur, and no one was thrown out. Several agreed that there were good things to be found at places like Dever’s material, though there was plenty we disagreed with.

Also, a man got up and proudly spoke about a Michael Carr book, and how it was blessing to him. Carr is pastor of the church that makes such “evil” films as “Fireproof” and “Facing the Giants”. No one threw him out.

The best thing to do is separate from these people.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Thanks, guys, for demonstrating the problems with hyper separatism. It usually becomes very arbitrary and petty. However, I feel compelled to say that there really are a number of godly and gracious men who sincerely endeavor to honor the Lord and His Word by practicing secondary separation. I believe they often miss the mark of proper Biblical application, but I will not question their genuine desire to serve the cause of Christ and Truth. Hopefully, the friendly sarcasm on this thread will help them think these things through more carefully.

G. N. Barkman

If you don’t anchor your reasons for separation in explicit or clearly implicit teachings from Scripture, you fall into the morass of subjectivism. That is the terrible error some of our brethren make. That, and a pervasive fear of running foul of the gatekeepers. Discussions of material or teachers that aren’t from the fundy orbit are often prefaced by something like this, “Yeah, that was really good, but …” The obligatory “yeah, but” reference betrays a “Village-like” mindset that’s indicative of a cultic sub-culture.

Fly away, brethren. There are fundamentalists who are normal. Honest. You can find them. Here’s one way to start - mention John Piper in a conversation, and if the guy doesn’t separate from you or use a “yeah, but” within 15 seconds, you may have found a normal fundamentalist. Either that, or you’re in the presence of the Wicked One - an evangelical. In that case, flee for the hills.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.