Bob Jones University Enters a New Era

Over and over, we’ve been told in this discussion that at 18 you are an adult because the law says you are one and therefore you should have to be told what to do and anybody who sets regulations for your living like BJU does is wrong.

Again, you haven’t been reading what I am saying. I have continually said that by the time someone is 18, they should not need the kinds of rules that BJU seeks to enforce on the private lives of their students because the parents should have trained them properly. I’ve also said that BJU is not responsible to do the kinds of things that some on this thread are seeking. I’ve also said that some of the purposes that some of the people on this site have advanced for these kinds of rules cannot achieve what you are seeking, and may, in fact, be completely counterproductive. The rules may, in fact, be great at turning out legalists and Pharisees, who know and obey the rules but miss the entire purpose of their education in the first place.

It might help you if you noticed that that we aren’t saying what you say we are. But if you are convinced that arguing with us is like arguing with a wall, then why are you participating in the first place?

This week I have been working through all the posts in this discussion, trying to write some adequate responses, but this discussion just keeps getting longer & longer,

Discussions like this can be helpful – They provide a way for people to talk about these issues/concerns who otherwise would not be able to. Unfortunately, (I assume) BJU administration and faculty/staff are not allowed to participate in these discussions, although some are probably reading these posts. So, to some extent, what we say here is not fair to BJU since they cannot respond. What we have here are various positions about BJU with BJU itself unable to respond.

I printed out these posts – they amount to over 125 pages front and back, and growing. I wonder if this is the “most-responded to” article at SI. Perhaps SI can arrange an interactive discussion with BJU administration so that this topic can be actually include the people we are talking about. I would think that those of us who are alumni should receive more clarity from BJU about what appear to be significant changes, instead of just press releases that changes are occuring..

Wally - I don’t see this thread (and what it’s become) as about BJU per se. In this thread, I think the university is simply acting as a foil for more foundational issues (e.g. the place of the University in Christian education, the proper path to discipleship for 18-22 year olds, the role of the church, the role of the University, etc.).

Still, it would be nice to have the possibility of BJU interaction since BJU was the focus of the original article. But I’m only dreaming.

I think it’s a safe assumption that the changes at BJU have been at the direction of the executive board AND Steve Pettit. The days of one-man rule at BJU are over. In the old days the board was mostly a rubber stamp for the president and they were probably surprised more than once by executive actions.

Michelle, it’s MIT, where the likes of Norbert Wiener and Amar Bose studied and taught, not Juilliard. I guarantee you that engineers (of which I am one) there will see their technical classes as more important and challenging, especially given our habit of seeing non-STEM classes as a sad necessity. The wall is on your side, sister, for not seeing some pretty obvious things.

Regarding Larry’s question about Steven Pettit and the Citadel, there may be something to that—I would contend (as one who was among the 90% of applicants rejected by USMA back in 1987) that he’s in a unique place to see that the heart and soul of the academies is not the rules, but rather a kind of man they’re selecting for in terms of tangible and intangible qualities, and a kind of man they’re trying to develop with those applicants. There are things to be borrowed, for sure, but Pettit is in a good position to see that not only is the Citadel emphatically not USMA, but neither is BJU—and that BJU will suffer if it tries to be USMA.

I would not be surprised, either, if he’s learned (perhaps sometimes the hard way?) that modern military leadership is not the same thing as Biblical leadership, and he’s making corrections that way, too. Pastors do not lead by giving commands to charge a hill. They do not train with 20 mile marches. In our churches at least, they do not get promoted to general, or get more stars after that promotion. The Army rejects people with asthma(like me); the church heals them.

One final thing that Pettit is in a good position to see—and this same vision is part of how I came to Christ—that the military’s rules are generally well-founded. Their prohibition on beards (and probably asthmatics) has to do with wearing a gas mask, for example. And so I wonder if he’s trying to edge out of “why on earth are we doing this?” kind of rules, too.

Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part. Time will tell.

I printed out these posts – they amount to over 125 pages front and back, and growing. I wonder if this is the “most-responded to” article at SI. Perhaps SI can arrange an interactive discussion with BJU administration so that this topic can be actually include the people we are talking about. I would think that those of us who are alumni should receive more clarity from BJU about what appear to be significant changes, instead of just press releases that changes are occuring..

This sounds like a great idea.

I just want to be sure that we’re sure that BJU is being held to the same treatment that NIU received…but I’m not holding my breath for that.

Jay, not quite sure what you’re getting at with “just want to be sure that we’re sure that BJU is being held to the same treatment that NIU received”. As I remember things, certain fundamentalists formed a circular firing quad around NIU, and though I’m not one who wants his kids to go to BJU, neither do I want BJU to suffer the same fate.

Lift them up to be more Biblical, you bet. Entertain the boundaries of what can, cannot, should, and should not happen with a college or university in terms of interacting in discipleship? Absolutely. Keep the door open for Don and others to clarify what they liked about the “old BJU”. Of course.

But not NIU’s treatment! :^)

[Don Johnson]

I don’t think BJU should “never change” but I think the changes need to be less accommodating of the easy style of modern living and in the direction of expecting more out of students, not less. Endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. That’s my view.

Don,

Even if there is merit in rigid structure—and there may be—I’m not sure that is what Paul had in mind in 2 Timothy 2:3. There’s plenty of real-life hardness Christians will be called to endure without necessarily manufacturing artificial rigidity. The Scripture doesn’t really support your point.

Jay, not quite sure what you’re getting at with “just want to be sure that we’re sure that BJU is being held to the same treatment that NIU received”. As I remember things, certain fundamentalists formed a circular firing squad around NIU, and though I’m not one who wants his kids to go to BJU, neither do I want BJU to suffer the same fate.

Yup, that’s more or less exactly what happened, for the same reasons. That’s why I brought it up and keep mentioning it - because there are quite a few people that screamed ‘compromise’ at NIU that have gone oddly quiet about BJU…if they haven’t defended the changes as necessary.

So I’d like to see my fellow fundamentalists that attacked NIU with their gossip and slander do the same thing to the institution that they graduated from. After all, if we’re fundamentalists, and NIU’s issues were grounded in serious flaws in doctrine and Biblical principle, as they said, then they have to apply those principles the same way, don’t they? That’s a big part of why I kept on defending NIU - because the things that people were so upset about weren’t grounded in doctrine.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, turnabout is fair play, they are hoisted on their own petard, etc, etc. I’m being tongue in cheek, but I’m also making sure they live up to the principles they love, defend, and uphold.

For the record, I don’t want to see BJU shut down like Northland did either.

Sorry, but this seemed relevant to the discussion somehow… :)

Source: https://twitter.com/LloydLegalist/status/910869948813148160

[Don Johnson]

BJU produced leaders. Today? I think it is less. I think the overall changes, not just the rules/authority structure, but including that, are tending towards followership rather than leadership.

I’m also curious about this line, Don. How would you see this manifesting itself, exactly?

As someone who has never attended BJU, but been influenced over the years by several different BJU alumni (having gone through Christian day schools in various geographical locations K-12), I do know that BJU people had a reputation for being well-trained and being capable in their fields. I’m not sure that I would have said that they were better leaders because of their exposure to BJU than any other school, and I have sat under the influence of many alumni of Christian institutions over the years because of my father’s Naval career… BJU, PCC, TTU, BBC (Springfield), Pillsbury, Northland… I’m sure there are others. As I recall, BJU grads back in the day (I graduated high school in 1989, if that helps you identify the eras that would have influenced me) had a general reputation for being a little more “cookie cutter” than others, even in things like clothing choices—not talking revealing issues here, but more classic vs. trendy ties and dress shirts kind of things. I also remember more than one having a tendency to be loyal to BJU and related ministry kinds of productions—what I mean by this is having a penchant for quotes from the various “Dr. Bobs,” promoting things like Patch the Pirate, and such. I am not criticizing them for doing these things… but I am mentioning them because it seems to me that they could be ‘followers” as much as alumni from any other school… the difference being more who they followed.
In fact, I remember being struck by the contrast as an older teen when I met Ron Bean, who was my pastor right after high school. My friends and I had him pegged for how we thought he would act and behave because he was a BJ grad. He did not meet our expectations, and seemed a lot less rigid, not in how he lived as far as standards, but just less fitting the stereotypes we had in our minds somehow. We later found out it was because he had only attended BJU’s seminary, and had his bachelor degree from another school. :-)

And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”

Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John.

And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:35-45)

and

Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Philippians 2:4-8)

Now that Greg Linscott has exposed me for what I am I guess I’ll do little explaining.

I was saved in 1975 and my youngest sister had just graduated from BJU. In the spring of 1976 I visited campus for the first time at Bible Conference and fell in love with the place. While I tried to enroll, God had a different plan and I spent the next 3 years teaching in a tightly run CDS that was governed by one of Dr. Bob Jones Sr.’s 1950’s preacher boys who implemented BJU rules in the school and church. (The church’s only doctrinal statement was the BJU creed.) I finally enrolled at the seminary in in 1979, lived in town, and was still a little rough around the edges not the knowing the BJU way of doing things. I remember meeting a cute Japanese student and expressing my desire to ask her out and having my first exposure to THE RULE! While I had no problem with the rules I did have questions and there was always a certain fear that I would get in trouble through my ignorance or inquistiveness. I tried to avoid shopping in off-limits stores and not walking with a young lady except in appropriate areas. Thankfully I took my “whys” to an understanding teacher who explained to me that the rules at BJU weren’t Scripture and, in general, were not for real life and to be compliant but discerning. He said that BJU was like a lumber yard that supplied me with materials to build my house. I wasn’t obligated to use every board they sold me, had to trim some of them, and even had to throw some away. When I got into ministry I even discovered that I could get boards from other lumber yards! I thank God for that teacher who helped me get the most out of BJU without becoming a “Bo-Jo”.

If BJU was the way you describe, it sounds more like hell than heaven. I, too, am glad you didn’t become a company man.