Bob Jones University Enters a New Era

we’ve already pointed out that their parents have failed.

Perhaps, but not necessarily. Parents should train children to be sure, but it seems to me that people who are overly bothered by rules are the immature ones. The majority of us recognized them and dealt with them and moved on. This constant incessant whining about it is a sign, to me, of people who are immature both spiritually and socially.

Two stories very quickly.

Everyone has stories. I probably have more than you do. So what? Are you suggesting that there is some sort of way to tell what is really going on in someone’s heart? That BJU or someone else should be foolproof in evaluating people? Of course you aren’t. So your first story, aside from the personal pain, has no relevance here. Yes, BJU failed. Someone was hiding something. That happens and in an age where there is no urim and thummim, it will continue to happen. But there are a great many stories, in fact many more than your two, of success, so to speak.

Are you suggesting that there should be no consequences for breaking the rules? If not, then your second story has no relevance either. Remember how many times people here (including you I think) have claimed that true repentance doesn’t complain about the consequences of their sin. They accept it.

Punishment helps train us for life by attaching consequences to behavior. The biblical teaching is essentially that “a little pain now is better than a lot of pain later.” That’s the wisdom behind punishment.

I could give more stories but I think you see my point.

I think you missed the boat with your point.

Training for life is good, but draconian rules create a toxic atmosphere that encourages legalism and bitterness, not Christlikeness.

Strange. I think legalism and bitterness come from inside not outside.

I lived under those rules far longer than probably anyone here. And I disagree with a lot of them and I broke a lot of them. Sometimes I got caught and sometimes I didn’t. And I don’t care. It didn’t ruin my life. It didn’t make me bitter. It didn’t make me a legalist. It made me an adult who was able to judge life.

Frankly, this has turned into nonsense to me.

Tyler, it seems like you have missed some things here. Rather than responding point by point, let me just make a quick list.

1. I am not defending the rules at BJU (then or now). I don’t really care one way or the other about most of it. I say most only because I am reserving the possibility that I don’t know everything. I don’t think I really care about any of it one way or the other. I thought some were too much and should be changed. But I lived under them for a long time and it didn’t ruin my life, make me bitter or legalistic, or any other of the horror stories. I kept some and broke some. The thing is that adults typically don’t have a problem with the rules. They either live under them or change the situation.

2. I am sure your employer has rules that a great many of us would consider draconian and silly. Perhaps even you think so. So what? It’s part of life. You might feel like you could justify them. You might not, but agree to live by them because it’s part of your job. Or you might even agree with them though we could probably point out just how silly they are. You might disagree, and then we would be right where we are now, just about a different organization.

3. Several times here you have referred to 18-20 year olds as adults. You even addressed teenagers in the first person as “I know you are an adult.” How in the world did you decide that? You don’t even know these people. Apart from the false assumption that “adult” it an age, there is no way I can figure out that you can class all these people as adults. I think you have a faulty assumption about what “adult” means or perhaps a faulty assumption about 18-20 year olds.

4. I am not saying that discipleship is the university’s job, instead of the parents or the church’s. If that’s what you got out of it, then you missed it. Discipleship is the responsibility of Christians, wherever they are.

5. You like to repeat a few stories, mostly about yourself and a few people you know. Assuming everything you keep saying about yourself it true, so what? How does that tell us anything about the rest of the population? And how might your life have been different had you taken a different route? You don’t know what you don’t know. I am around high school students almost every day. In my experience, they are nowhere near where you think they are. Yes, there are good ones. I can point you to a couple of dozen outstanding 18 year olds who can do everything you did and more. And that would mean nothing at all because there are a great many more who can’t hold a job, who can’t construct a sentence in reasonable English, who don’t even know to pull their pants so their undergarments aren’t showing.

6. Of course people can rise to the occasion when treated like adults and expected to act like it. I have seen it my entire life. And they can also fail miserably and I have seen that my entire life. As a pastor, a large part of my job is picking up those pieces and trying to glue it back it together.

7. To say you are arguing about whether the earth is flat indicates to me that you don’t know what the conversation is about. You have latched onto a couple of stories and your own narrow experience to form a view about a population in the millions. It’s not a valid approach.

8. A place like BJU may have been good for you if for no other reason, than to help you see the point of the conversation. You seem to have a very narrow view of the world and of people. I would go so far as to say it doesn’t seem like you interact much with the people you are talking about (either Christian university people or 18-22 year olds).

9. Most of us would agree that the local church is the center of discipleship and relationships.

10. At the end of the day, mature people can live with rules because they understand issues. It is immature people who have big problems with it.

11. BJU is not for everybody. Neither is your way. But it is for some perhaps who are greatly benefited by it. And perhaps you would have been. The truth is that you will never know, which perhaps might give you pause in making dogmatic pronouncements about it.

We are all trapped, to some degree, by our own contexts. Many of the people here have grown up in the Christian orbit, and attended fundamentalist Christian university. I suspect I am in the minority here, because I did none of those things, and came to faith right before I joined the Navy. I ask you to consider that your own perspective on Christian university, not mine, is the minority experience in the Christian world today, in the West. There is a reason why none of the bright teens in my church are headed to Maranatha or BJU - they see the atmosphere as legalistic and insulting to them. And, we’re a fundamentalist church.

You wrote:

To say you are arguing about whether the earth is flat indicates to me that you don’t know what the conversation is about. You have latched onto a couple of stories and your own narrow experience to form a view about a population in the millions. It’s not a valid approach.

Perhaps. Anybody can toss in a few anecdotes, to be sure. Did you consider that you may be doing the same thing, too!? What I’d like people to consider is this:

1. Christians have been around for a long time
2. Fundamentalist Christian universities, and their unique approach to university life, have not been around for very long
3. Christians have survived, thrived and succeeded in life for a long time without fundamentalist Christian universities, and their unique approach to university life
4. Thus, Christians can survive and thrive without the fundamentalist Christian university experience

I’m arguing for a different way. I believe many Christian parents who have grown up “in the bubble” feel they have no other choice but to send their children to Maranatha or BJU. That is not the case. I believe some people who have commented here are incorrect to criticize BJU for opting for a different method of “student life.” 18-22 year olds can do just fine without the fundamentalist Christian university, as long as they train for a vocation somewhere, and are committed to a local church.

I ask you to consider that your own perspective on Christian university, not mine, is the minority experience in the Christian world today, in the West.

Absolutely it’s the minority experience. That’s irrelevant to the question at hand. The question at hand for me is whether or not it is good for some people, and I think the answer to that is yes. It is good. It is not childish and insluting.

There is a reason why none of the bright teens in my church are headed to Maranatha or BJU - they see the atmosphere as legalistic and insulting to them.

Are they equipped spiritually and mentally to make this determination? They may not be. And that’s to say nothing of all the bright teens who don’t see it that way. In fact, people who see it as legalistic and insulting might be indicating their immaturity and lack of knowledge.

Did you consider that you may be doing the same thing, too!?

Sure, except I am not really arguing from anecdotes. I am arguing from biblical principles about rules or help in living the Christian life and developing mature Christians who can judge the world rightly.

Christians have survived, thrived and succeeded in life for a long time without fundamentalist Christian universities, and their unique approach to university life
Thus, Christians can survive and thrive without the fundamentalist Christian university experience

Of course. No debate here.

I’m arguing for a different way. I believe many Christian parents who have grown up “in the bubble” feel they have no other choice but to send their children to Maranatha or BJU. That is not the case.

I am not sure what is different about this. I don’t know that anyone has suggested otherwise.

18-22 year olds can do just fine without the fundamentalist Christian university, as long as they train for a vocation somewhere, and are committed to a local church.

Of course some can. And some are greatly harmed by it as well for a variety of reasons including secular worldview education, close influences of unbelievers, particular sin struggles, etc.

I think our differences are not about specifics, but about a more general worldview. You seem to have a great deal more confidence in fallen humanity than I do. And from experience both in my personal life and looking at the world in general and university life in particular, I find very little reason to justify yours and a whole lot of reasons to justify mine.

we can easily overstate the impact that such school based discipline can have. “Such regulations have indeed an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and harsh treatment of the body, but lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” Colossians 2:23.

Of course we can overstate it. That’s my point. It can be overstated both ways. Tyler has, IMO, vastly overstated the impact. I know vast numbers of Christian college grads who aren’t bitter and legalistic. They don’t feel like they were treated like children. And they aren’t “weirdos.” They are normal, faithful Jesus-loving church members who never thought they had to live by school rules after they left. They are highly successful businessmen, doctors, entrepreneurs, pastors, professors, etc.

However, I don’t think the rules at a typical Christian college are usually about self-imposed worship, false humility, or harsh treatment of the body. A great many of them do restrain sensual indulgence. Which means that Col 2:23 doesn’t really apply. This idea that all rules that aren’t explicit quotations of a Bible verse are encompassed in Col 2:23 is a bad one that needs to go away. Col 2:23 is talking about a very specific kind of rule for a very specific usage.

Some of them are the application of wisdom to life, and they are needed all people at all stages of life. Others are application of wisdom to life that are needed for some people at all stages of life. Others are the application of wisdom to life that are needed for some people at some stages.

Some exist because universal moral principles and others exist for the smooth operation of an organization. I have rules right now that I live by, that would be considered draconian by some. I don’t really care. All organizations have rules. Those outside frequently consider them silly. And perhaps they are. But they might be helpful to some people in some cases. And they might be helpful to people who reject them.

Since everyone has stories here’s one: Years ago I almost got fired from a job for not wearing a name tag for about a 10 minute period of time. Yes, fired for not wearing a name tag for ten minutes. Talk about silly and draconian. Stupid. Why were they treating me like a child? Not even BJU required me to wear a name tag. That was no Christian organization that had such silly rules. And there were a lot more of those rules. My manager told me that because my job performance was very high, he begged for my job, but he wouldn’t do it again, so to make sure I wore a name tag.

Here’s a question: Earlier in the conversation there were a number of people who claimed that a woman’s dress doesn’t cause a man to lust; it is his own responsibility. But now people appear to be claiming that school rules can cause bitterness and legalism. So which is it? Do outside things cause problems or not? It seems a bit inconsistent to me. Are we cherry picking causes based on our own prejudices? What if the rules aren’t the problem but the heart is? Why change the rules when the real issue is the heart? Personally, I think that tends to be really simplistic. It is much more complex. We can assert that women should dress carefully without blaming them for men’s lust. We can assert that organizational rules can be matters of biblical wisdom and practicality without arguing they can change one’s spiritual inner condition.

The fact is that BJU has changed and is changing and I believe for the good. There is no going back, the horse is out of the barn, the chicken is out of the hen house, and whatever other metaphor you want to use. There aren’t enough flux capacitors and busses to transport us back to the BJU of the 70’s! (rising bells, lights out, no sleeping in on Saturday or napping during the week, off limits stores, or haircut checks). If BJU prospers, the nay sayers will say it’s because they compromised. If they fail, the naysayers will say it’s because they compromised and God punished them. For those who desire there are still schools that hold to the old BJU model. We’ll see how they do.

And please don’t judge the military by a few bad examples. Remember there are just as many BJU grads proportionally who are embarrassments.

You are correct about one thing - we have vastly different ideas about the Christian life. You wrote:

I think our differences are not about specifics, but about a more general worldview. You seem to have a great deal more confidence in fallen humanity than I do. And from experience both in my personal life and looking at the world in general and university life in particular, I find very little reason to justify yours and a whole lot of reasons to justify mine.

That’s an intriguing statement, given that I’ve spent my entire adult life in law enforcement! I’m working a fraud case right now where an insurance agent was negligent, recommended a bad deal, and an elderly couple will end up losing $500,000 next week. The agent just wanted the commission ($120k), so he ramrodded the deal through and advised the couple not to read the contract. I understand depravity, believe me.

So, the difference isn’t in our doctrine of anthropology. I believe the difference is in our ideas of discipleship and the Christian life, and the philosophies we believe should be put in place to guide people. There is a methodological difference here. We see that in your assumption that the teens in my church are not mature enough to know they don’t need BJU (or a similar school), and are rebellious because they’re insulted by that kind of loco parentis atmosphere. You wrote:

Are they equipped spiritually and mentally to make this determination? They may not be. And that’s to say nothing of all the bright teens who don’t see it that way. In fact, people who see it as legalistic and insulting might be indicating their immaturity and lack of knowledge.

It’s all right there, in your last comment. If you tell teens they’re immature and ignorant, they’ll believe you and act like it. There is a great divide between us about method.

I believe the faster your method dies, the better off fundamentalism will be. I don’t say that to score cheap points, I say it because I’ve pastored a church where this brand of fundamentalism had reigned for a very long time, under a variety of fundamentalist pastors. That place did more spiritual damage than good, and produced a host of false converts, and hurt a lot of people. That approach is reflected in some of the more draconian approaches BJU and other institutions used to take (some still do). This approach should die and it must die, and I’m very happy whenever it does.

[Ron Bean]

For those who desire there are still schools that hold to the old BJU model. We’ll see how they do.

PCC! :) Fairhaven Baptist Bible College, Providence Baptist Bible College?

I’m not quite sure I can go along with Larry when he claims that mature people tend to make peace with the rules, and immature people do not. Jesus and Paul certainly did not simply accommodate the extra rules of the Pharisees and Judiazers, but rather noted that they were nullifying God’s Word by their words and actions. Would we accuse them of being immature? There is a certain point where accepting silly rules without justification is sin.

(and that badge issue? Probably an overreaction to threaten firing, but the reason my employers have required badges is because we have confidential information, and we need to recognize at a glance who is authorized to be around it, and who is not…it’s a big deal where I’ve worked)

Moreover, to understand “fundagelical rules” in light of Colossians 2:23, look at Colossians 2:21-“do not touch, do not taste, do not handle.” I think we can easily place many of BJU’s rules into those categories, don’t you think?

A final note is that I think it’s counterproductive to describe those who object to “the rules” as “immature” or “whining.” Again, you’ve got Jesus’ approach to the Pharisees as a counter-example, and what’s also being said, implicitly, is that the notion of objecting to rules on a Biblical basis is off limits. That’s exactly how one commenter described his experience when asking about a rule—“you should know better than to ask.”

And let’s be blunt about the matter; if we have a culture where one is seen as immature or whining because he questions the rules, we would conversely assume this culture is one where one is OK if one follows the rules without question. Another name for this is “legalism”.

And maybe Crown, although I don’t know much about them. PCC was the first that came to mind because of my familiarity with the place.

Ron, If that was directed at me, remember I have no real problem with the changes and am not judging the military at all, much less by a few bad examples.

Even being “not the biggest fan of BJU” myself, I must concede that the list of schools Tyler mentions do go a good deal further than BJU did. That noted, I know a fair number of PCC and Pillsbury grads whose degrees have gotten them bupkus because they are not accredited by anyone, and I also know a fair number of young people around me in this “orbit” who have learned to mock their pastors because they’ve learned that their pastors are just making things up. (no help from me, just smart kids reading the Word)

So please don’t tell me that silly, un-Biblical rules like “no beards” don’t leave a mark this way. If we believe that solid, Bible based preaching leaves a mark, we must simultaneously believe that foolishly chosen, a-Biblical and even anti-Biblical rules will leave a mark as well. That mark includes rebellion against the rules, often to the point of rebelling against the Bible itself.

So please don’t tell me that silly, un-Biblical rules like “no beards” don’t leave a mark this way. If we believe that solid, Bible based preaching leaves a mark, we must simultaneously believe that foolishly chosen, a-Biblical and even anti-Biblical rules will leave a mark as well. That mark includes rebellion against the rules, often to the point of rebelling against the Bible itself.

The problem with the rules, Larry, is that we teach our children to obey the rules because the authorities are divinely sanctioned (Romans 13), and then if they disobey, treat some instances as deliberate rebellion instead of honest mistake when that isn’t warranted. Nor are we willing to go back and confess when we (the authorities) were wrong to do so.

Or then people look at the rules and realize that some of what they have been told (Biblical warrant against interracial dating, for example) as biblical doesn’t hold water and they get confused or decide that all of this has been made up or misapplied.

I am glad for people that have fond memories of BJU. I have several of my own. But not all of those rules are good, promote a right understanding of God and His character, or can effectively restrain a sinful heart and desires. Those kinds of rules should be changed or dropped as appropriate.

[Ron Bean]

And maybe Crown, although I don’t know much about them. PCC was the first that came to mind because of my familiarity with the place.

There are already plenty of schools like Cedarville and Liberty on the other side that kids can go to if they want.

Really, BJU has carved out a fairly “unusual” niche within higher education. They provide strong academics in Bible and the liberal arts within a Christian worldview that has been marked by separatist fundamentalism, the cultivating of personal discipline and purity, the valuing of fine arts, and maintaining conservative dress and high music standards. Their model may not be for everybody, but it’s something I appreciated and want for my children.

Maybe I should add one more thing. I work for a prestigious, world-class research university outside Atlanta. We are consistently ranked as a top school by US News and World Report. Part of my benefits package allows my kids to go to school here for free (if they get accepted). We may take advantage of that for a class here or there during the summer but what we really want (and what they want) is what BJU offers, at least for undergrad, and so that is where they are going for now.