Bob Jones University Enters a New Era

While our churches and families did their best to disciple us, they weren’t equipped the way BJU dorms were.

There is some truth to this. The 24/7 presence together is a kind of discipleship that most local churches do not offer. That’s not something to upset about to object to, in my view. It has some benefits.

The idea that you can have an education without discipleship is, to me, strange. I don’t know how you would do that.

You can’t seriously be saying that the discipleship in a college dorm is a good replacement for the discipleship from a local church? If I’ve misunderstood you, I apologize.

I’m not claiming that no discipleship can happen in a college setting. I’m saying that it’s poor ecclesiology to say that discipleship at college > discipleship from your local church.

You can’t seriously be saying that the discipleship in a college dorm is a good replacement for the discipleship from a local church? If I’ve misunderstood you, I apologize.

Yes, you misunderstood. I did not say that.

I’m not claiming that no discipleship can happen in a college setting. I’m saying that it’s poor ecclesiology to say that discipleship at college > discipleship from your local church.

Are there a lot of local churches where people live together 24/7? I am not aware of any. My only point is that there is some truth to the statement that 24/7 relationships can be good discipling that typically does not take place in other settings. It has some benefits that meeting a time or two or three a week along with a few phone calls and a cup of coffee or two doesn’t provide. There are some things that are harder to hide when you share a room. That’s all I am saying. I am not saying it is better than the church or should replace the church.

In any case, I am not sure that is ecclesiology. What goes on at a school isn’t, by definition, ecclesiology, whatever else it might b.

… be saying that “it is better than the church or should replace the church,” but I sat in a meeting where that was said. And I’ve heard that sentiment echoed by others throughout the years. And to believe that does reflect poor ecclesiology; it reflects an unhealthy and unBiblical view of the role of the local church.

By the way, in the early-mid 90s, I spent three and a half years in the dorms at BJU. And most of that time was spent with a hall leader as a roommate. Looking back on it now, as kind as those guys were, as helpful as they attempted to be, they were not equipped to disciple me (or really anyone over the age of fifteen). I agree with a lot of what Tyler has written on this thread. However, I do disagree with his classification of college age students as “adult students.” As a general rule, I don’t find college aged kids mature enough to adequately disciple their peers, no matter how well-intentioned they are nor how well they follow they rules. And I’m sure that there are exceptions to that.

In my job at my church, I spend a lot of my time discipling men. Some young, some my age. Of course I’m not with them 24/7, and I am by no means some shining paragon of discipling (not even close). But I do know that the younger men that I disciple would be making a mistake if they traded the discipling done in our church (not just by me, but by others as well - we don’t leave the discipling to one person) for a dorm room at a Christian college. In fact, we’ve actually counseled a man not to go away to a Christian college because we believed that he needed to remain under the discipleship of his church family, based on where he’s at spiritually. He now attends a local college and, by God’s grace, is faithfully growing in the Word and the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I did an MA without any Bible undergrad. I did a secular undergrad. My son is starting Koine Greek in homeschool next week, so he’ll have 3-4 years when he is college-aged. You don’t need a Bible undergrad. I don’t have one. It’s why I have a job today.

There are clearly two different ideas on this thread about the role of the university. You all know where I stand. Go BJU.

You May Not be saying that “it is better than the church or should replace the church,” but I sat in a meeting where that was said.

I am actually not saying that and I have never heard that. Granted, I only spent half my life there so I may have missed it somehwere. If someone said that, then I agree that it reflects an unhealthy and unBiblical view of the role of the local church.

But I do know that the younger men that I disciple would be making a mistake if they traded the discipling done in our church (not just by me, but by others as well - we don’t leave the discipling to one person) for a dorm room at a Christian college.

I agree. This should not be traded.

[Don Johnson] Oh, I thought Bible degrees didn’t qualify anyone for the ministry?

They don’t. Thus, the pursuit of an advanced theological degree (preferably an MDiv or ThM).

[Don Johnson] Do we really need more business majors?

Yes. We need more rubber-meets-road Christians who know how to live out their faith in the real world. We need more pastors who have at least a basic understanding of organizational leadership, accounting, finance, marketing, and business law. I believe this provides a tremendous perspective and opportunity that Bible / missions majors who go directly into ministry NEVER receive. Even the Apostle Paul had a business background. I consider this one aspect of the elder qualification of being prudent (σώφρων) and necessary to being a proper overseer of the church.

Case in point, in almost every IFB church I’ve attended, pastor/deacons were using incorrect tax or accounting practices. When brought to their attention, some of those pastors were resistant to change because “that’s how my pastor always did it.” Today, pastors / churches need to be aware of complex tax / legal / finance issues concerning retirement and health insurance options. Please note, I’m not saying that pastors need to be subject matter experts in these areas, but they need to at least recognize the complexities involved and know who/where to go to get the right answers.

So, yes, we need more Christian business majors and more pastors who understand the related disciplines.

Jay, yes, my parents were believers, and their parents were believers. Grandparents on my mom’s side were missionaries to Jewish people in US metro areas. I grew up hearing about Christianity and the Bible all the time since infancy. My parents believed in Christian education (Dad was on the board for a time of a new Christian school, I believe, in the Flint, Michigan area), and I never set foot in a public school, with the exception of driver’s ed, which was an eye-opener. I saw the value of a Christ-centered educational all the way from kindergarten through finishing up at BJU (class of 1991). Amazing years at BJU as well.

I know what it’s like (but haven’t experienced it myself) to go to a school today where cuss words are hurled left and right and disrespect and immodesty are everywhere you turn (like my oldest daughter experienced during driver’s ed this past summer—and it was an eye-opener for her too). I don’t think this makes me or her naive though we were certainly both sheltered (and that’s not necessarily a bad thing). I know what’s out there. I worked some summer jobs between years in college and saw much, sometimes more than I needed to. But God, praise His name, chose to keep me in a Christian educational environment. A think a young person who is growing in Christ is better off not being exposed to public education, if possible.

Keep in mind that I was a Northland staff member (editor) for a decade (1995-2006), back when I’d see students pause and pray right in the middle of the sidewalk. I know what it’s like to outwardly conform but not be real inside; Northland, with its focus on the heart, came at the right time for me, and God used it greatly in my life. The place at the time was amazing (about brings tears to my eyes to remember it); there was such an incredible atmosphere of truly loving and seeking God in every area I observed. The students largely didn’t gripe about the strict rules (at least the ones I knew); in fact, the rules helped eliminate worldly distractions so they could focus on loving and knowing God. “Go Out of the Way” was one of the advertising slogans. Of course, there were still a lot of fallen people who were imperfect, and God worked on them. A good number of those BJU and Northland friends and students have gone on to serve the Lord. I’ve personally seen how this educational environment works. My girls will not be attending state schools. I am deeply saddened that Northland (the college) is no more, especially since I’m only forty minutes from campus. The 2006 Northland would have been good for my girls.
I’m as flawed as the next guy and need His grace every day, but yep, I have a totally different philosophy of education than perhaps some who have voiced frankly surprising comments in this thread. I do, however, appreciate the heart in which those comments were expressed. Some here have obviously had some very bad experiences; I am very sorry to hear it, but I don’t believe those represent the experience of all of us. So yep, I wear very different lenses. If you grew up in a different background and didn’t experience a Christian environment (background or schooling) to this degree, may God be praised however He plans to use you. But I would personally recommend Christian education for any Christian young person, whether it’s elementary school or college.

[Don Johnson]

Between my wife and myself and our children, we have eleven degrees from BJU, the most recent grad was 2016. We’ve seen the changes. We are extremely disappointed by the lack of enforcement of the rule book. If you have rules, enforce them. It you are too gutless to enforce them, throw them out. It’s really false advertising to say you insist on modesty for the girls but then fail to follow your own rulebook.

We wouldn’t send our kids to BJU today, in spite of many friends on faculty/administration and alumni. It is not that some rules didn’t need to be changed, change is always necessary as culture constantly changes around us. The school no longer cultivates the kind of spiritual atmosphere I loved as a student and hoped for when my children began attending. I don’t think I would be enthusiastic about sending anyone there anymore. I think the Bible faculty still teaches a fundamentalist worldview, but I don’t think that’s the overall atmosphere.

The statistic I would like to have publicized is the freshman enrollment in the preacher boys class (I do like the term.) Last year the number I heard was pitifully small. It is not the school’s fault, but I wonder where the preachers for fundamentalist churches are going to come from in the future.

BJ sounds better all the time. Too bad I won’t be able to make my 40th reunion this fall. When I hear that Don won’t recommend BJ anymore that encourages me that BJ might be doing something right. The school doesn’t cultivate the the spiritual atmosphere Don loved as a student. Of course Don knows that from wherever he is. The Fundamentalist mindset might be replaced by a biblical one.

I get the modesty thing. I don’t get the enforcement. I can say unequivocally that while a student from 1974-1978 I saw immodesty manifested even with below the knee skirts and dresses. Without an army of enforcers I don’t know how one would (or would care) to enforce every misstep. These are young adults who need discipiling. That’s a process that rule enforcement can’t do.

As for “preacher boys.” It never bothered me. I wouldn’t use it now. Doesn’t sound endearing.

I’d like to hear a little more from Don about the “spiritual atmosphere” he says used to exist at BJU, but does not anymore. I think I would be unfair to his claims to see it as simply a matter of enforcing the dress code, so Don, here’s an invitation from me to flesh that out a bit.

(many here know where I stand on a lot of these issues, and it’s often not with Don, but I’m willing to be persuaded if a case can be made)

On “preacher boys”, probably a term best left in the past. Along these lines, I had a fun experience about six years back, where a coworker—huge black man, about 6’4” and 250 lbs or so, bodybuilder—came by and said that he’d thought he was “my boy”, but (huge smile as he said this, BTW) he was perplexed I hadn’t made sure he got some brownies I’d made. When I came back to him a while later and admitted I didn’t know if I’d dare use that phrase, he explained that what he’d said was OK, but if I called him “boy”, that would be bad. I chose to avoid both terms, and think “preacher boy” has some perjoratives that we might do well to avoid, too—specifically young men long on shouting and short on theology.

[Don Johnson]

Between my wife and myself and our children, we have eleven degrees from BJU, the most recent grad was 2016. We’ve seen the changes. We are extremely disappointed by the lack of enforcement of the rule book. If you have rules, enforce them. It you are too gutless to enforce them, throw them out. It’s really false advertising to say you insist on modesty for the girls but then fail to follow your own rulebook.

We wouldn’t send our kids to BJU today, in spite of many friends on faculty/administration and alumni. It is not that some rules didn’t need to be changed, change is always necessary as culture constantly changes around us. The school no longer cultivates the kind of spiritual atmosphere I loved as a student and hoped for when my children began attending. I don’t think I would be enthusiastic about sending anyone there anymore. I think the Bible faculty still teaches a fundamentalist worldview, but I don’t think that’s the overall atmosphere.

The statistic I would like to have publicized is the freshman enrollment in the preacher boys class (I do like the term.) Last year the number I heard was pitifully small. It is not the school’s fault, but I wonder where the preachers for fundamentalist churches are going to come from in the future.

I do agree with you Don, if there is a rule than enforce it. I haven’t seen the modesty issues, because I haven’t been on campus in a while. With that said, when I was in college, the rules were skirted all the time. Classic example was hair check. People would either forge a “cast member” slip that allowed you to have long hair, or they would get creative with gel, or they would have friends in certain aisles that were more lenient during hair check. There were always kids that I questioned how they ever passed hair check.

But, you make the statement that “I wonder where the preachers for fundamentalist churches are going to come from in the future”, but at the same time, in the paragraph above you state, “we wouldn’t send our kids to BJU today”. I think that you answered your question. People want to see rules that meet their convictions and they want those rules in place to drive behavior. If it doesn’t they will withdraw from that school, and therefore no longer influence it anymore and it continue to goes a certain direction. I think part of this is a separatist instilled behavior. If all of the people who favor a more conservative modesty approach, pull out and abandon BJU, than don’t be surprised if the more lenient crowd controls the direction.

Most of my extended family attends BJU, and they are fairly conservative in their family and I haven’t heard any concerns from them. My brother in law has had his kids in the academy since kindergarten and up through college this year, and besides the “normal” rule changes, I haven’t heard of them being disgrunteled with any changes.

I am a 1975 graduate of BJU. I loved the school from the time I first visited it during my sophomore year in high school. Most of the student body, I graduated from a public high school. We had a extremely high percentage of men who were saved during the Vietnam War and then called to preach as part of the ministerial training.

Over the years, I found out that I had freedom to follow Jesus, even if doing so was not strictly according to preconceived expectations. Dr. Bob III remained a friend, even when I went to and graduated from Moody Graduate School. I have never experienced anything but acceptance, love, and support, even when my BJU friends knew that I attended MacArthur’s Shepherd’s Conference.

About 8 years ago, I took a few Doctorate level classes at BJU. I was concerned by the strife and anger that I experienced from so many students back then. A few years ago, my wife and I attended Bible Conference. The strife and anger seemed to be gone. My wife and I noticed a Christlike spirit reflecting the fruit of the Holy Spirit every where we went.

This spring our church in CO sent 4 high school students to visit BJU. One is enrolled as part of this year’s freshmen class, another is accepted for next years!

My wife and I have appreciated the current emphasis from the chapel pulpit on spiritual growth and discipleship. RULES??? I know that institutional rules have a place; but they can never produce Christlikeness.

You wrote:

BJ sounds better all the time.

That is the funniest thing I’ve read in a while. Amen to that. BJU is indeed sounding better and better. Pettit is doing a fine job; almost as good as Marriot! :)

The change from the sometime Draconian demerit system to one of discipleship was a a great decision. There were incidents repeated too often under the old system where punishment seemed to be a means to conformity and counseling/discipleship consisted of being advised to “get your heart right”.

A few comments:

The leadership at BJU has firmly decided which direction the school will go. Nothing said in this discussion or anywhere else will change that. Some like the changes, some do not like the changes. Doesn’t matter. The decision has been made by BJU administration.

If BJU is seeking students from the “Wheaton/Liberty” pool of prospects, then that says more about where BJU is today than anything else.

Although the issues are different, the parallel is interesting: Princeton Seminary faculty was powerless to stop Princeton University’s changes. I suspect the same is true of the BJU Seminary faculty, assuming there is enough faculty who would want to.

Student spiritual growth does not have to be an either/or choice between rules/standards and discipleship. Growth should include both rules and discipleship. To say a school should focus on discipleship and not rules is narrow thinking. To say that discipleship is for the local church only is absurd. That would mean that as soon as students walk on a campus, discipleship ends, and we just focus on an educational “product”. It’s more than how to earn a living; It’s about how to live. That involves discipleship and rules. The aversion to rules reflects more of our culture’s independent attitude than the Bible. To assume that a person is mature enough to not need any rules as soon as he turns 18 is naive.

No one has said that rules produce Christlikeness. That’s a position no one in this discussion has stated. It’s a false (straw man) argument designed to criticize rules. Every school, even secular, has rules. The question concerns what those rules should be and will they be enforced. Apparently, BJU still has rules in the Handbook, but those rules are weakly enforced.

The size of the ministerial class has become smaller due to several changes in the wider culture and in churches: Less interest in the ministry, more interest in secular careers, fewer Bible-believing churches, fewer Christian schools, weakening economics, and some other influences.

BJU has decided that the survival of the school is most important, and they will make whatever changes are necessary to insure the survival of the school. That is the real reason for entering intercollegiate sports and most of the other changes at the school. To believe that the changes were made solely on the basis of Biblical analysis/teaching betrays a lack of understanding of what is really happening in Christian education.

The current leadership at BJU has a very difficult job: Keeping the school viable and growing while living in a culture becoming more antagonistic/indifferent to the gospel and a Christian culture becoming more tolerant of what used to be considered wrong (i.e., social drinking, certain forms of entertainment and clothing, etc.). They saw the future and decided to make a few changes in order to widen the appeal for the school’s survival.

Rules can always be improved, and there are always people who find ways to get around rules. The fact that, in the past, students found ways to avoid conforming to certain rules is not an indictment of the rules but the student.

I find the opposition to Bible degrees disturbing. I’m certainly in favor of people having a variety of work skills and education, but to give the impression that Bible degrees are not “real degrees” is astounding.

No one has said that Christians need to be “sheltered” from the world. That’s an old argument often used against rules and standards at Christians schools. So should a Christian school not have any rules at all? Is even one rule “sheltering” the students? How do you decide what rules to have? Does every rule need to have an explicit Biblical prooftext? Can’t some rules be for practical reasons? I don’t see how any of this is “sheltering”. Additionally, isn’t it possible that some people/students need protecting from themselves? Isn’t it possible that some people/students are not mature and need some extra help by having external rules combined with dsicipleship/teaching? A Christian school/college has a very wide variety of students, from many different backgrounds, some of whom do not have any church backgound. It’s a difficult job to provide a place for such a wide variety of people.

By itself, an increase in enrollment does not mean anything except that enrollment has increased. The question is “Why has enrollment increased?” If enrollment increases because more Christians are seeking a Christian education to serve Jesus Christ wherever He may lead them, then that’s fine. But if enrollment has increased because of a sports program or because the rules are now more lenient, then that’s a problem that will drive even more changes. Or has enrollment increased because some Christian colleges have closed? If that is true, then enrollment numbers will become flat.

By itself, the fact that some faculty are now “optimistic” about BJU’s future is irrelevant to the question of whether the changes at BJU are right or wrong. People can “feel good” about something and be wrong. Likewise, people can “feel bad” about something and be wrong too.

Jim’s “Preacher Boy” picture & post concerning Don’s church was unneccessary.

Lastly: Whatever happened to the historically much publicized policy that graduates of BJU had the responsibility to insure the Bibllcal integrity of the school, and if the school ever departed from its Biblical beliefs, then graduates had the solemn responsibility to seek the closure of the school? Don’t think I’ve heard anything about that for years.