Bob Jones University Enters a New Era

Adam, got it, but really, secular colleges don’t leave you alone in that regard, either. Now of course, they tend to actively work against you, but that’s the crucible of testing that I was referring to. Really, my experience with Michigan State and the church I attended (South Baptist of Lansing) was that the state school kids far outclassed most of the Bible College kids—whatever was gained from the Bible College discipleship programs was far overshadowed by the effects of having one’s positions challenged by people who really believed those opposing views.

Part of the problem is what Dave Barnhart referred to a few comments ago—too many Bible colleges had borrowed their student discipline policies from Erich Honecker and the Stasi, it seems, and the end result was that many had learned external compliance with internal rebellion. Hemline below the knees, and no Led Zeppelin in the car stereo, but a completely secular approach to life, really. in contrast, the state college kids were there because they wanted to be there, so the contrast was stark.

I know more than a few BJU “preacher boys” (I never liked that term!) who took those rules with them when they graduated as a kind of “oral Torah” and implemented them in their churches. For some of us they became so much a part of our mindset that seeing things like facial hair and/or long hair on men, short skits or pants on women, “uncheckable” music, etc. made us suspect of anyone’s salvation. There are still grads who are upset that the inter-racial dating rule was dropped and that consider interscholastic sports as compromise.

[Michelle Shuman]

I’m on campus almost every day (not an student or employee) and often wonder why they even bother with an handbook. Frequently, the dress does not follow the handbook. It appears to be every man for himself. Skinny pants, shorts (even short shorts) and short dresses are the norm. My biology classes never taught me that me knee started 2-3 inches above the bend in my leg. I was very embarrassed by one BJA senior this year when she leaned over to sign her baby sister into our Sunday School class. I thought for sure we were going to see things for the bedroom only.

Between my wife and myself and our children, we have eleven degrees from BJU, the most recent grad was 2016. We’ve seen the changes. We are extremely disappointed by the lack of enforcement of the rule book. If you have rules, enforce them. It you are too gutless to enforce them, throw them out. It’s really false advertising to say you insist on modesty for the girls but then fail to follow your own rulebook.

We wouldn’t send our kids to BJU today, in spite of many friends on faculty/administration and alumni. It is not that some rules didn’t need to be changed, change is always necessary as culture constantly changes around us. The school no longer cultivates the kind of spiritual atmosphere I loved as a student and hoped for when my children began attending. I don’t think I would be enthusiastic about sending anyone there anymore. I think the Bible faculty still teaches a fundamentalist worldview, but I don’t think that’s the overall atmosphere.

The statistic I would like to have publicized is the freshman enrollment in the preacher boys class (I do like the term.) Last year the number I heard was pitifully small. It is not the school’s fault, but I wonder where the preachers for fundamentalist churches are going to come from in the future.

[Don Johnson] We’ve seen the changes. We are extremely disappointed by the lack of enforcement of the rule book.

This is a sad statement, when you think about it. The decision to recommend a school is based on enforcement of certain rules instead of the product the school provides or the caliber of its graduates. If they would only enforce certain dress standards, then we would recommend the school.

[Don Johnson] I wonder where the preachers for fundamentalist churches are going to come from in the future.

Hopefully, they come from business, education, engineering, and other majors and decide to go on for an advanced theological degree before becoming pastors. Bible and missions majors are worthless undergrad degrees that don’t adequately prepare anyone to be employed let alone be a pastor or missionary.

Honestly, if my son were interested in going into full-time ministry, I’d counsel him to get a rigorous and marketable degree first then go on to seminary to get an MDiv or ThM. He, his family, and his future congregation will all be better off.

[T Howard]

Don Johnson wrote:

We’ve seen the changes. We are extremely disappointed by the lack of enforcement of the rule book.

This is a sad statement, when you think about it. The decision to recommend a school is based on enforcement of certain rules instead of the product the school provides or the caliber of its graduates. If they would only enforce certain dress standards, then we would recommend the school.

How’s the reading comprehension going?

You’re doing extremely well at objecting to something different from what I said.

[T Howard]

Don Johnson wrote:

I wonder where the preachers for fundamentalist churches are going to come from in the future.

Hopefully, they come from business, education, engineering, and other majors and decide to go on for an advanced theological degree before becoming pastors. Bible and missions majors are worthless undergrad degrees that don’t adequately prepare anyone to be employed let alone be a pastor or missionary.

Honestly, if my son were interested in going into full-time ministry, I’d counsel him to get a rigorous and marketable degree first then go on to seminary to get an MDiv or ThM. He, his family, and his future congregation will all be better off.

OK, let’s assume your assertion is true.

How many business, education, engineering, and other majors are currently then moving on to Seminary from BJU’s last senior class?

BJU has to compete with Wheaton, Cedarville, etc because there likely aren’t enought students in the traditional Fundamentalist day schools to keep it going. It’s the same issue that NIU, CBTS Lansdale, and Pillsbury ran into. It’s just that simple. For the record, I am a BJU alumnus and hope it continues to prosper. Jim’s post about the 4.8% growth was an encouragement to me today.

Tyler’s post tonight from 6:30 is golden. College isn’t a place to take the training wheels off - that happens during the teenage years. If Christians can’t survive in the real world and need a spiritual hothouse to keep them going by the time they are 18, the parents have failed in their responsibility to train up that child in the way they should go.

As for the dress standards at BJU - meh. I see worse stuff every single day in the “real” world. I work with several Orthodox Jewish women, and some of them are very good looking. All of them, on any given day, would fit nicely into dress standards at BJU during the 90’s or turn of the century for women, but it’s still an area where I have the self-discipline and spiritual grounding to fight against my fleshly lusts. I can’t complain to HR because they are ‘immodestly dressed’ and a problem for me. Again - if godly men can’t hack the modestly dressed women of BJU, how in the world will they survive a secular workplace? Sure, if I had daughters I might feel differently, but even my theoretical daughters would have to know that they could wear hijabs and still be ‘snares’ for godless men that are looking on their bodies as toys to be used.

I also really dislike the term ‘preacher boy’. The men in those classes are men, and most of them are old enough to die for their country. Preacher boy is infantilizing and rude, and I’ll be happy when that term is dead and gone. Like I said before, some of the rules at BJU, when I was there, were downright insulting (GAs were not allowed to use headphones, the same as undergrads).

Side question - Adam, are you a second generation Christian? It seems like there’s a line here of people who are first generation Christians (no Christian parents or unequal yokes) like myself, Jim and Tyler that agree on those things and then the people who did have Christian parents and grew up in a Christian home (like yourself and maybe Michelle?) are accustomed to the rules and principles that you believe in and defend. We saw this line with Mark Ward’s special issue on remaining Fundamentalist in Frontline a couple months back, and I think that might be a big difference in philosophies as a result.

That’s it for now. This is a really interesting discussion.

[Jay]

I also really dislike the term ‘preacher boy’. The men in those classes are men, and most of them are old enough to die for their country. Preacher boy is infantilizing and rude, and I’ll be happy when that term is dead and gone.

Really? This is an offense? It’s use at BJU, as I understand it, began with Dr. Bob, Sr. as a term of endearment. Doesn’t bother me.

If today’s “men” are so infantile as to take offense at it, perhaps they aren’t as manly as they think they are.

[Don Johnson] How’s the reading comprehension going?

You’re doing extremely well at objecting to something different from what I said.

Don, when you equate enforcing certain dress code rules for women to cultivating the kind of spiritual atmosphere you love and hope for, that, my friend, is a sad statement.

[Don Johnson] How many business, education, engineering, and other majors are currently then moving on to Seminary from BJU’s last senior class?

Can’t speak for BJU, but I know Southern gets a lot of Bible and non-Bible majors from fundamentalist institutions applying for their MDiv programs.

I cannot imagine the head of any university referring to his students as “my boys and girls” which was another of Dr. Bob Sr.’s terms of endearment. I was a 30 year old grad student and the term irritated me but I silently tolerated it because I knew I was nobody’s “boy”. I later found out my feeling was shared by some WW II and Korean War vets. I’m glad the term has disappeared from BJU.

[T Howard]

Don Johnson wrote:

How’s the reading comprehension going?

You’re doing extremely well at objecting to something different from what I said.

Don, when you equate enforcing certain dress code rules for women to cultivating the kind of spiritual atmosphere you love and hope for, that, my friend, is a sad statement.

That’s not what I said, brother.

I said I have seen the changes, and I am disappointed in the failure to enforce the rules that are on the books. That only breeds disrespect for authority and is hypocritical. Better not to have the rules at all.

However, I believe in discipline and I believe in authority. I think that went a long way to producing a vibrant spiritual life on campus during my days there. It wasn’t perfect, I had my share of attitude problems and infractions, but the atmosphere was far different than it is today. I think the discipline structure was a major part of that (though not the only part).

Does that make it clearer? I’m not saying what you suggest I am saying.

[T Howard]

Don Johnson wrote:

How many business, education, engineering, and other majors are currently then moving on to Seminary from BJU’s last senior class?

Can’t speak for BJU, but I know Southern gets a lot of Bible and non-Bible majors from fundamentalist institutions applying for their MDiv programs.

Oh, I thought Bible degrees didn’t qualify anyone for the ministry?

And “a lot” means nothing. I think there is a crisis coming for the churches in days to come. There won’t be enough pastors to go around. There needs to be more preaching on this. Do we really need more business majors? (The number one school for incoming freshman at BJU this year, according to a factoid they sent out.)

My 13 year old son wants to be a missionary. I’ve told him he needs to get a secular undergrad degree, then do an MA at Seminary. Because he wants to be a missionary, he’ll go to Maranatha if they offer a secular degree that he’s interested in. My middle son will likely not be in ministry (so far), and he’ll probably go to a secular college for a secular degree.

Bible undergrad is worthless in the real world. People need practical job training for a practical life. A Bible undergrad won’t get you a secular career so you can feed your family. Churches are getting smaller as our society grows more and more pagan. Churches will not be able to support a man fulltime; and those that claim ​to be able to won’t be able to provide much of a salary. If you’re 22, with a BA in Bible, you’re shooting yourself in the foot. You won’t be able to afford to live, your church likely won’t be able to pay you a decent salary (let alone health insurance), and you’ll be struggling. Get married, have a child … prepare for disaster. You’ll end up being a youth pastor who drives a schoolbus to make extra money, or works some minimum wage job. You could spiritualie this and consider it “suffering for the Lord.” I call it “making things harder then they have to be.”

I have seen far too many Pastors suffer because they don’t have any marketable talent and/or credentials in the secular workforce. The usual solution is to make the wife work. Yay. How biblical. Better pray she graduated from an accredited insttiution, or the “elementary education” degree she earned will be worthless in the real world. Of course, she can always get hired by the local Christian dayschool and teach Abeka for $15.00/hr, until it closes for lack of enrollment.

My friends, there is a better way:

1. Get a real degree, get real job experience.
2. Rely on your local church and the home for more basic training and development
3. Do an MA at Seminary (hint - Maranatha’s MA in English Bible is online and/or virtual).
4. Drop the “one pastor alone against the world model,” and go for a dual-pastor bi-vocational model that reduces the financial strain on your church, which could re-direct it’s funds to missions or evangelism.

Winning. :)

As for “preacher boy,” well … it’s a pretty silly term. You had to have grown up in a fundamentalist sub-culture to be fond of it. It’s always sounded belittleing and infantile to me.

Folks, I didn’t grow up as a Christian and didn’t grow up in a fundamentalist sub-culture. I went to a fundamentalist institution and was in ministry in fundamentalist churches. I’ve seen this model up close, like many of you have. As an outsider, my opinion is that this model is not a good one. Online and virtual technology is the best thing that has happened to Christian education. It allows the local church to reclaim it’s rightful place as the discipleship center, and assigns the university back to it’s rightful role as a provider of an educational product - not a surrogate mother hen who clucks over her chicks.

It’s a long story, but I returned to BJU in 2007 as a married town student and as a new Christian (I had been a Christian for three years at that point). At the beginning of my first semester back, I attended the male town student meeting. It was mostly boiler-plate stuff. But a comment by the assistant dean of men stood out, and still troubles me.

He told us that while he understood why we were town students (he was really speaking to unmarried guys at this point), he wished for our sakes that we were dorm students. You see, according to BJU’s assistant dean of men, we were missing out on discipling. While our churches and families did their best to disciple us, they weren’t equipped the way BJU dorms were.

I almost walked out and un-enrolled.

I don’t share that anecdote lightly. For one thing, BJU has changed a lot since then. It may no longer reflect the school’s belief (I pray that it doesn’t). For another thing, there are enough slings and arrows hurled at BJU on the internet; I try to avoid adding to the assault.

But, that anecdote does speak, I think, to some of the concerns expressed in this thread. And those concerns are partly why my wife and I are encouraging our children to attend the state university near our house (George Mason). Our desire is for them to continue to be discipled by us and our church throughout their undergrad years. If, for some reason, they decide to attend a Christian university, we will tell them that they are agreeing to obey all of the rules, whether the rules makes sense or not. But, and this is an important “but,” the school is not their spiritual leadership or authority. Their parents and church are.

I grew up in the Christian school movement. My mom was a teacher at the vanguard of that movement. I went to one of the flagship Christian schools. And while I have much to be thankful for, and am thankful for my parents and teachers, I am not a fan of the Christian school movement. In many cases, it’s replaced the church. By God’s grace, I hope that my understanding shaped by my experiences is no longer the norm. Based on some of the concerns expressed on this thread about BJU, I’m thinking that maybe my concerns aren’t as valid as they used to be. If so, praise God.

Get a real degree, get real job experience.

Good advice.

Rely on your local church and the home for more basic training and development

Good advice.

Do an MA at Seminary (hint - Maranatha’s MA in English Bible (link is external)is online and/or virtual).

I think an MA is insufficient, and particularly an MA in English Bible, and even moreso if you don’t have a Bible undergrad. You might get away with an MA if you had a Bible undergrad, but pastors need to get an MDiv at a seminary that requires Greek and Hebrew, along with systematic theology. These are the basic tools of pastoral ministry. I have been in ministry on both sides of an MDiv and there is no comparison to the equipping that a good MDiv typically gives. Ministry is not the place to take a short cut in training.

Drop the “one pastor alone against the world model,” and go for a dual-pastor bi-vocational model that reduces the financial strain on your church, which could re-direct it’s funds to missions or evangelism.

Isn’t paying pastors directing funds to missions and evangelism? And if you go to two pastors when you can’t even support one, how is that going to work? I am in favor of ministry teams. And I think bi-vocational is going to be the way for many churches and pastors in the future, particularly in certain underresourced areas. But being bi-vocational takes a toll on the pastor, on his family, and on the church. I am bi-vocational and it doesn’t help the church other than relieving some of the financial burden.

The biblical teaching that “those who preach the gospel should live of the gospel” would seem to be relevant. It’s one thing to be unable to pay. It’s another thing to be unwilling to pay. Perhaps we should give some thought to whether a church who has a studied and intentional philosophy of the preacher of the gospel not living of the gospel is doing it biblically.

But that’s off topic here.

To the topic at hand directly, BJU is not (and never has been) for everyone. If you don’t like the direction or the environment, go somewhere else.

People have questioned what BJU has that Wheaton, Cedarville, etc. don’t have. It seems to me that at least part of it is still a basic fundamentalist mindset and there is still a basic Christian discipleship mentality (perhaps moreso than ever). The idea that college students are automatically adults partakes of a faulty definition of adulthood. Adult is not an age (18; HS grad); nor is it a location (away from home). Adult is a mindset of maturity, or as someone put it, the ability to parent one self. It is someone who is mature and able to give serious reflection on life, to devote themselves to things that are significant, and to function as a mature person. It is less likely that college students are adults today then 20 or 30 years ago. It seems there is overall a juvenliziation of society and a delaying of adulthood. Consider how many college students view college as a time to sow their wild oats, to get away with whatever they can get away with, to flaunt their obligations to the community, or hide their refusal to fulfill their obligations. They skate by on the least possible. Even on expensive state campuses, we tremendous displays of immaturity as seen in intolerance, violent protest, refusal to submit to authority, etc. These are not the marks of adulthood. They are the marks of childishness and immaturity that needs to be shepherded. In fact, it is perhaps this time in life where they need direction and guidance more than any other. So we should dispense with the idea that college students are automatically adults. They aren’t. And we should dispense with the notion that they don’t need spiritual leadership and discipleship. They do.