Bob Jones University Enters a New Era

[JBL] So the question is, what does BJU offer for a student coming from a full blown evangelical background that Wheaton does not? I’m really hard pressed to think of an answer and thus find it hard to believe that someone coming from an evangelical background would choose BJU over Wheaton. If BJU is really competing for students with Liberty and Wheaton, I don’t see any way they can succeed in attracting them unless the sub-cultural standards are broadened to accommodate those students from CE and evangelical backgrounds.

[JBL] But now here comes the hard question…What does Wheaton or BJU offer that the secular school does not? I would posit not much more other than a few more bible classes, the guarantee of not being challenged by anti-biblical worldviews, and the guarantee of acceptance of Christian sub-cultural standards. My assessment is that if a student is majoring in a non-bible field, the primary advantage of the BJU/Wheaton/Liberty experience is that it provides a Christian safe-space for four years.

I’m thoroughly in agreement with Tyler that choosing a college based on whether it offers the appropriate Christian cultural safe-space is not a good decision. My hope is that by the time they are eighteen, our truly regenerate young people will have already been discipled in thinking through issues of modesty and cultural engagement and will make Christ honoring choices regardless of whether they are in college or not.

Maybe you need to visit campus on a regular school day- eat in the Dining Common for lunch and supper and then tell me what you see and compare it to their handbook. I’ll admit I’ve gone to the rule book twice in the last two months to look at the women’s dress code because of what I was seeing. If I’m exaggerating then why are there so many questions and issues? I’m respectfully only giving my observations. There is more that could be said but would be second hand so not admissable.

Yes my husband has seen much more also, but why in a church or Christian school setting would a parent or in the case of BJU allow the immature child/adult to expose others. Why not teach them proper dress? I was also embarrassed for the young lady. Proper decorum/behaviour/attitudes start from the top and work down. I Chronicles 29 which was part of my morning reading is a perfect example of this.

I often think in the matter of dress of the scripture that says we are not to be a stumbling block to others. I wonder how many women are stumbling blocks in the matter of their dress. And to the man who thinks he can handle it, we are also told that pride goeth before a fall. But we have digressed from the original issue.

God can also use rules and enforcement at a Christian school to help the young person become more Christlike and learn how to serve those in authority and treat others kindly. This probably happens in most homes, and it for many years worked at BJU. Room leaders and others worked with those in the rooms and used even room responsibilities for discipleship opportunities. And because students signed a statement agreeing to keep the guidelines while there, rules certainly became opportunities to encourage each student in his or her sanctification. Perhaps since you weren’t a student in this type of situation, you didn’t see it modeled. I’m sure even today BJU uses dorm expectations as discipleship opportunities, and those directly impact one’s sanctification. This is one way in which places like BJU are so much different from state schools. The whole environment is a microcosm for growing in sanctification.

It isn’t at all like a state school where you go there to get your degree and are left alone.

Part of the issue is that it’s hard to get clothing that fits the wonderful contours of the female form when the sewers are earning a dime an hour in Bangladesh. So when you lack skill and good patterns, you will rely on spandex to fill the gap, and hence there’s not much there at a reasonable price point between skinny jeans and mom jeans. We need to cut young ladies some slack here.

Another issue is that the verses most cite regarding modesty, 1 Timothy 2:9-10 and 1 Peter 3:3-4, really don’t directly address what areas are covered and how, but rather the opulence of the attire. Is it any surprise that young ladies don’t cover up when we don’t figure out what parts of Scripture tell them they ought to do so? BJU, along with most fundagelical schools, is really making it up as they go in this area, settling more or less on”office casual”.

Great example, IMO, of how fundagelical schools need to up their game in terms of student handbooks.

University’s aren’t daycare centers. Students are adults.

[Adam Blumer]

God can also use rules and enforcement at a Christian school to help the young person become more Christlike and learn how to serve those in authority and treat others kindly. This probably happens in most homes, and it for many years worked at BJU. Room leaders and others worked with those in the rooms and used even room responsibilities for discipleship opportunities. And because students signed a statement agreeing to keep the guidelines while there, rules certainly became opportunities to encourage each student in his or her sanctification. Perhaps since you weren’t a student in this type of situation, you didn’t see it modeled. I’m sure even today BJU uses dorm expectations as discipleship opportunities, and those directly impact one’s sanctification. This is one way in which places like BJU are so much different from state schools. The whole environment is a microcosm for growing in sanctification.

It isn’t at all like a state school where you go there to get your degree and are left alone.

Adam, you obviously are not familiar with alumni organizations and fundraisers with state schools. They come very close to getting arrested for stalking! :^)

Seriously, I would agree that at their best, Christian schools can introduce their students to theology in a way that is at least difficult at government-sponsored colleges and secular private colleges. They can also enact serious student handbooks that reduce the likelihood of needing to walk past puddles of vomit on one’s way to church, and increase the likelihood of being able to study on a Saturday. They are also free, to a degree, to teach the “lost tools of learning” and make their graduates (like the Patrick Henry debaters) head and shoulders above others in the real liberal arts.

The flip side is that the challenge of secularism is often a crucible that removes the slag from a believer at secular schools.

I attended BJU around the same time as Andy, and honestly, I didn’t really have any issue with the rules, per se, and it was fairly easy for those with the right attitude to learn to live under them, especially knowing they were temporary, and not something I had to somehow consider as rules for living once I had graduated.

My issues with what they did then (and what has changed somewhat) are the following:

1. Method of enforcement. It was quite common then to just have a situation happen like Michelle described above (or for the guys, hair length), and then just be “turned in” anonymously for the infraction. I understand that true discipleship is harder, and takes more time, but I personally would have much preferred to have the person who noticed just come to me about it. I might still have gotten the demerits, but the whole “secret police” aspect of things back then was sometimes hard to take. Even when you wanted to have the right attitude about things, it became a cat and mouse game of trying to thwart the “gestapo” (like, e.g. figuring out when hair-check would be, which was supposed to be secret, and then waiting until the absolute last minute to have a hair cut). I know my attitude wasn’t always the best when that kind of thing happened, but the school having a less adversarial relationship with the students would have been much preferred, and would certainly have helped the students be less cynical.

2. How questions (even honest ones, in the right spirit) were handled. To even ask a question about something like the music standards was seen (particularly if you were an upperclassman) as rebellion. There was one specific incident I really remember where a certain piece of music was announced to be acceptable, and then less than 2 months later, it was rescinded. Since I thought that was pretty strange, I asked a question through channels about it, and the answer I got was (almost verbatim) “You’re a junior. You should know better than to question something like this.” Another person I knew asked about the interracial dating rule that was in place at the time, and kept just getting put off and never getting a straight answer.

In spite of those quibbles with how things were handled, I got through just fine, rarely getting many demerits. And while there were plenty of those around who almost seemed to prefer trying to play “gotcha” with the students, there were also many fine faculty and staff who really cared about us and had a great influence on me.

Even if the “new” BJU perhaps needs to pay a bit more attention to enforcement, I’m extremely glad for the changes to a more discipling relationship, which already started under Stephen Jones. Without that change in particular, I would certainly have counseled my two children who chose to go there that they should know exactly what they were getting into, and be prepared to have their commitment to having a good attitude really tested. I was really glad I didn’t need to do that.

Burt, I mean that at a state school, they aren’t interested in discipling me as a child of God. I made that statement in the context of what a Christian college like BJU offers that a state college doesn’t. Does a state college care whether I read my Bible? Or whether I follow God’s calling in my life?

Am I clearer now? That’s all I was referring to.

I didn’t go to a Christianity university for undergrad. I am glad I didn’t. This entire discussion is divorced from real-life, because I assume many of these college students work in the real-world, away from the Christian “bubble” so many Christian universities are anxious to create. There are a few of different assumptions in this thread:

1. Christian universities have a job to disciple and help mature “young people.” I disagree. They’re there to provide a product. I pay, you provide. Done. Discipleship is done by a local church.
2. Students need to be sheltered from the world. False. They need to be treated like adults, because they probably work in “the world” anyway - or hope to! Sooner or later, your kids need to be treated like adults and come out of the Tupperware containers they’ve been hermetically sealed in for so long. It should have happened a little by 18. Why delay until 22?

We’ve been over this ground before. Some people insist on seeing university as an extension of high school, where the university basically acts as a surrogate Christian parent. I didn’t grow up as a Christian, so I never went through this nonsense. I think this kind of attitude infantilizes our children, extends adolescence, and is insulting to a great many Christian adults who are anxious to be treated like adults.

I say again, the local church can worry about discipleship and spiritual formation. The university can accept tuition with a smile and provide a product, all while enforcing a reasonable (not draconian) behavior code consistent with Christian witness and character.

To young people:

1. Consider attending your community college for two years, getting your AA, then transferring into a Christian university for your last two years.
2. Or, even better, get your AA, transfer into a Christian university as a virtual student, get your BA/BS online, and never have to worry about this kind of stupidity ever. And, you can be an adult and not be treated like child. Bonus!
3. Or, even better than that, get your AA, then transfer into a secular university to get your BA online, don’t live on-campus, live a normal life, get to be an adult, have a job, live like a Christian in the real world (you know, like every other Christian in the world does who isn’t a Christian college student), and still never have to worry about this kind of stupidity. My alma mater offers an MA in Organizational Leadership online, at significantly less cost than MBU’s MA in Leadership. Go online, save money, and maybe you and your spouse can afford a used Honda Civic and can splurge on a night out at Applebees once and a while. Yay!

Ciao :)