Pregnant at 18. Hailed by Abortion Foes. Punished by Christian School

It’s obvious that no one is likely to change his mind about this issue. However, I’m having a difficult time understanding why the natural consequences of pregnancy have anything to do with the punishments determined by the school. The school is not assigning morning sickness, etc. I’m also struggling to understand why the parent’s trying the case before unbelievers in the court of human opinion is considered appropriate when some of the same people object to that being done in the case of the one suing the Southern Baptist Missions Board on another thread.

And Jay, I’m having a hard time figuring out why my characterizing your objection to Maddi’s not being allowed to walk as “excessive punishment” is not exactly what you are saying? You state above, “No, I believe that barring her from walking at graduation is excessive…” That fact that you believe it to be so because it is on top of other punishments does not remove it from the category of “excessive,” which is the term you use. I did not comment on why you consider it excessive. I understand that you consider it excessive because it is in addition to other punishments. I correctly characterized your position to be that you consider this to be excessive punishment. How does that misrepresent your argument? You consider it to be excessive because you believe it is going one step too far. Others consider it appropriate because they do not believe this additional punishment is excessive.

My position is that I don’t know which of these two opinions is correct, nor do I believe anyone can know. It boils down to opinions without an objective standard by which to determine which opinion is correct. In that situation, I prefer to defer to the school leaders who know a lot more about the situation than anyone on this thread. If the HCA punishment was a clear violation of Scripture, I would join those who object.

GN, the reason I’m pointing to the natural consequences is because in the Scriptures, that’s what Moses, Paul, and Christ seem to point to. Isn’t being a Christian supposed to be about the….imitation of Christ? I would suggest that if our consistent response is to be harsher than Christ, that does in fact say something about how closely we’re following him, and it ought to be a gut check for us.

Which is a way of saying I think you’ve got the question backwards in the second paragraph. The correct question is whether imposing a more severe penalty is supportable by Scripture, and no such evidence has been presented here. If you want a place where they say that if it’s not banned by Scripture, it’s OK, I know a nice little place just on the other side of the Tiber.

I understand that you consider it excessive because it is in addition to other punishments. I correctly characterized your position to be that you consider this to be excessive punishment. How does that misrepresent your argument? You consider it to be excessive because you believe it is going one step too far.

OK, I misunderstood what you were saying. My apologies.

Apology accepted.

Bert, there is no question that every sin has natural consequences. I see no Biblical evidence that natural consequences somehow cancel consequences imposed by others. Take the example of the adulterous church member in I Corinthians five. He will, no doubt, reap various natural consequences for his sin. But Paul doesn’t say that because the natural consequences are enough, the church should give him a pass. On the contrary, Paul tells the church to excommunicate him immediately.

GN, the man expelled from the church was, per Matthew 18:15-19, expelled because he was still living in that sin and not repentant of that sin. That’s simply not the case here; Maddi was humiliated in public at least twice as she apologized to the school board and the school as a whole.

That, along with the natural consequences of her sin, is more than enough to satisfy the Biblical model for handling fornication. The school board, by insisting (along with you, apparently) that she “grin and bear it” through whatever additional punishments they see fit to dish out as a condition of believing her repentance, has more or less created a situation where the girl and her family are likely to tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.

This is basic human psychology, and we fundamentalists need to get a grip on this. When we go beyond what the Bible commends, we leave a trail of bitter, hurt people in our wake. If you doubt this, visit Julie Anne’s blog. I disagree with many positions she takes, but she is 100% correct that legalistic, authoritarian “leadership” leaves a nasty wake of bitter, hurting people.

Take the example of the adulterous church member in I Corinthians five. He will, no doubt, reap various natural consequences for his sin. But Paul doesn’t say that because the natural consequences are enough, the church should give him a pass. On the contrary, Paul tells the church to excommunicate him immediately.

I haven’t done any serious research or exegesis on this, but I’m fairly confident that I Cor. 5 is not as much aimed at the man with his father’s wife as it at the Corinthians themselves. Note the shock and anger in Paul’s voice that the Corinthians are tolerating this sin in their midst, especially when even the pagans know better:

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

In any case, I don’t think that a man living with his father’s wife on an continuing basis is the same situation that Maddi finds herself in. Maybe she’s still with the father of the baby, and maybe they’re still involved, but that doesn’t seem to be the case from what I’m reading. Nor do I think it’s appropriate to turn her over to Satan for the destruction of her flesh based on what little we know. I’m not even convinced that the turning over of someone to Satan in the manner that Paul does here should be normative for the NT church.

TL;DR - I Cor. 5 doesn’t really have much to do with Maddi’s case.

Furthermore, Paul has to rebuke the church again for not taking him back a little later:

5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 Another reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 Anyone you forgive, I also forgive. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

I guess the guideline is this - slow to discipline, quick to forgive and reconcile. I don’t see that happening here, and I don’t think that HCA should operate under the same guidelines with the same process as a local, NT church. They are different organizations with different purposes.

[Bert Perry]

GN, the man expelled from the church was, per Matthew 18:15-19, expelled because he was still living in that sin and not repentant of that sin. That’s simply not the case here; Maddi was humiliated in public at least twice as she apologized to the school board and the school as a whole.

That, along with the natural consequences of her sin, is more than enough to satisfy the Biblical model for handling fornication. The school board, by insisting (along with you, apparently) that she “grin and bear it” through whatever additional punishments they see fit to dish out as a condition of believing her repentance, has more or less created a situation where the girl and her family are likely to tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.

This is basic human psychology, and we fundamentalists need to get a grip on this. When we go beyond what the Bible commends, we leave a trail of bitter, hurt people in our wake. If you doubt this, visit Julie Anne’s blog. I disagree with many positions she takes, but she is 100% correct that legalistic, authoritarian “leadership” leaves a nasty wake of bitter, hurting people.

MY RESPONSE:

Well said post!!! I absolutely agree! I was extremely scarred by a legalistic authoritarian pastor when I was on his staff and it took me over 10 years to get over the hurt and bitterness of how i was treated. It would be wise for all fundamental right wing Baptist pastors and leadership to consider…Am I coming across to Christians and the unsaved world as a legalistic authoritarian Christian? There is no place in Christianity for forcing your opinions and beliefs not based on “Thus Saith the Lord” on others.

[Bert Perry]

GN, the man expelled from the church was, per Matthew 18:15-19, expelled because he was still living in that sin and not repentant of that sin. That’s simply not the case here; Maddi was humiliated in public at least twice as she apologized to the school board and the school as a whole.

That, along with the natural consequences of her sin, is more than enough to satisfy the Biblical model for handling fornication. The school board, by insisting (along with you, apparently) that she “grin and bear it” through whatever additional punishments they see fit to dish out as a condition of believing her repentance, has more or less created a situation where the girl and her family are likely to tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.

This is basic human psychology, and we fundamentalists need to get a grip on this. When we go beyond what the Bible commends, we leave a trail of bitter, hurt people in our wake. If you doubt this, visit Julie Anne’s blog. I disagree with many positions she takes, but she is 100% correct that legalistic, authoritarian “leadership” leaves a nasty wake of bitter, hurting people.

Well said post!!! I absolutely agree! I was extremely scarred by a legalistic authoritarian pastor when I was on his staff and it took me over 10 years to get over the hurt and bitterness of how i was treated. It would be wise for all fundamental right wing Baptist pastors and leadership to consider…Am I coming across to Christians and the unsaved world as a legalistic authoritarian Christian? There is no place in Christianity for forcing your opinions and beliefs not based on “Thus Saith the Lord” on others.

The I Corinthians five illustration was offered simply to demonstrate that the reality of “natural consequences” of sin have no bearing upon the appropriate punishments imposed by a church or school. I am not saying the Corinthian situation is the same as the HCA situation, but it serves to demonstrate that natural consequences do not cancel humanly imposed consequences, as some have suggested.

Do some Christian leaders exercise over-bearing authority? No question about it. Do some Christians consider virtually any exercise of Biblical authority to be excessive? No question about that either. Is the HCA case an example of over-bearing authority? Obviously some think so. Others are not so sure. I am amazed that some can be so extremely certain that this is over-bearing without knowing more about the conversations between the HCA board and Maddi and her parents. I am sure of one thing, namely that the person who committed the offense is the least qualified person to determine that the punishment is too severe. The spirit of anti-authoritarianism is apparently alive and well among American fundamentalists.

Look up a definition for authoritarianism and tell me that it’s a bad thing to be anti-authoritarian. Put in the words of Mr. T., I pity the fool who submits to so-called ministry “leadership” who substitute their own will for the Word of God. It is my hope and prayer that authoritarianism in the church will die a quick and painful death; quick so that the church no longer suffers from authoritarianism, and painful so its practicioners remember what they did with horror. If church leadership is not clearly submitting to the Word of God, it is the holy responsibility of the rank and file to put them in their place—back into the rank and file, or expelled from the church altogether.

Once again, I’ve been asking—going back over 100 comments on this thread—for a single piece of Biblical evidence that the school board had the right to do this. In response, I’ve gotten bupkus, Biblically speaking. Brothers, this is worse than what the liberal mainline churches are doing. They are, after all, at least honest about their habit of ignoring the Bible.

Hmmm. Maybe because they are the governing board for the school, and the ones given the responsibility to make decisions of this nature? Maybe because the Bible requires us all to live within the context of authority structures? Maybe because home, church, employment, and nation are all designed with divinely mandated authority structures?

Bert, what you are demanding is specific Biblical authority for this exact form of punishment. We all know that is impossible. The Bible doesn’t deal with graduation exercises specifically. What it does is designate authority structures and require that all Christians submit to them unless that authority requires them to disobey a clear command of God. So the real question is not whether there is Scriptural support for forbidding Maddi to walk, but is there Scriptural support for Maddi to object to this particular punishment, and for others to support her in this objection? Bert, if your children disagree with a punishment you impose because it is not specifically stated in the Bible, should I support them in this lack of submission to your parental authority?

If church leadership is not clearly submitting to the Word of God, it is the holy responsibility of the rank and file to put them in their place—back into the rank and file, or expelled from the church altogether.

That’s honest truth right there.

There is so much I want to say, but it’s worth noting that more than a few OT and NT passages from the Lord are aimed directly at priests who abuse and usurp their authority. Isaiah is rife with it. Ezekiel 34 covers it as well, as does Matthew 23.

The Lord calls us shepherds for a reason. Sheep are filthy, dumb, stink, and foolish. Our job is to lead and guide. If any pastor or school board leader thinks he is a Sergeant and he can just tell people what to do and they will follow along because he says so, he does not understand Christ’s example of servant leadership.

And if he doesn’t do that - then he should be run out of the church. We are working with God’s people, not our own. We give account to God for His flock, including unwed mothers that scandalize schools.

No, GN, we are not required to honor authority when that supposed “authority” has no Biblical support. Protestants suffered and died for the principles of Sola Scriptura, and any so-called “spiritual leader” who forgets this needs to be removed and replaced. And yes, my family applies this in cases of the discipline of our children, too. I would much rather have an argument with them now about whether, say, parental anger violates Scripture, than to have them meekly “submit” and simply go their own way when they leave the home.

And you know what? The latter is exactly what I see among the authoritarian churches around me. The kids outwardly submit while at church, and then they talk to my kids and me, and I know full well that their so-called “obedience” is just a show. If we are lucky, they’ll be at an EFCA church in ten years. More likely, you’ll find them at the bar.

Authoritarian church “leadership” is straight from the bowels of Hell and sends a lot of people there. God-given authority is conveyed and clarified in God’s Word, and has nothing to do, besides word origins, with authoritarianism.

Where is a supervising church in all of this? HCA should be accountable to some church leadership somewhere, or are they completely autonomous?

If so, that’s are larger issue that needs to be addressed as well.

GN, your post reminds me of the old Roman saying - “who is watching the watchers?” I am all for authority, but I am adamantly opposed to authoritarian belief and authoritarianism ‘because we put them in charge’ or because ‘God put them there’, which usually leads to their becoming automatically above question.

Our own fleshly natures are too easily corrupted or compromised to be handed power with no accountability, and ego is one of the most insidious and hidden or easily disguised motivational factors in abuse. Everyone trusts ‘the man of God’ or ‘the leaders’ implicitly…too much so.

So the real question is not whether there is Scriptural support for forbidding Maddi to walk, but is there Scriptural support for Maddi to object to this particular punishment, and for others to support her in this objection? Bert, if your children disagree with a punishment you impose because it is not specifically stated in the Bible, should I support them in this lack of submission to your parental authority?

We aren’t discussing parenting here. We are talking about an eighteen year old (I think) who has made poor choices and who is dealing with all of the appropriate consequences on top of the punishment handed out by a school. Don’t conflate the two.

The real question isn’t ‘what Bible punishment do we throw at Maddi’. The real question is how do we display justice with mercy as God does to us. There has been plenty of law-based justice dispensed. There has NOT been enough mercy, which all God’s people are commanded to love.