Liberty University President Jerry Falwell Jr. urges students to arm themselves

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/12/07/why-jerry-falwell-wants-a…

Why in the world would we care about the Peter Enns opinion? His anti-“Biblicist” agenda is clear and he (deliberately?) doesn’t even have his facts straight: the jumping off point for his piece is that Falwell was speaking of the campus’s hypothetical treatment of all Muslims generally, when in fact he was speaking only of the two Muslims who engaged in the killings. That was clear from the get go and Falwell has reiterated it since.

By the way, I carry a Glock 27 — a concealed carry-sized .40 caliber — especially in movie theaters and at church. I purchased the gun and obtained a concealed carry permit for it after the Sandy Hook shooting. I hope I never have any reason to use it, but I am determined not to be unable to defend myself and especially others if I’m ever in the right place at the wrong time. As this most recent massacre demonstrated (where a host of police officers were training only 1.5 miles away and were able to respond more quickly and in larger numbers than they otherwise would), no matter how good the police response time is the carnage happens before they can get there.

[Greg Long]

I don’t understand, GregH. If a person has passed their background check, has taken gun safety courses, and has the permit to carry, how do you determine if they are qualified or not?

So you would rather attend a church where people are not welcome to carry their lawfully registered gun? I don’t know of any churches that forbid people from carrying their concealed weapons, but I’m sure they are out there. So you are saying you are going to choose to attend a church that explicitly forbids this?

Many concealed carry laws forbid concealed carry (or any carry) within houses of worship. I lived in Georgia for quite some time, and knew people who carried their gun in church, despite breaking the law (http://www.georgiapacking.org/law.php). I know a ton of people who have a carry license, but who, in my opinion are not qualified to carry, and have no real concept of how to engage someone properly except that they have shot paper targets of Osama Bin Laden at their firing range. God is 100% in control, and I would rather put my hands in God, than for a bunch of people who have no concept of how to actually engage someone and is illegally carrying in a church.

[dmyers]

By the way, I carry a Glock 27 — a concealed carry-sized .40 caliber — especially in movie theaters and at church. I purchased the gun and obtained a concealed carry permit for it after the Sandy Hook shooting. I hope I never have any reason to use it, but I am determined not to be unable to defend myself and especially others if I’m ever in the right place at the wrong time. As this most recent massacre demonstrated (where a host of police officers were training only 1.5 miles away and were able to respond more quickly and in larger numbers than they otherwise would), no matter how good the police response time is the carnage happens before they can get there.

Then you are breaking the law. In Georgia it is against the law to carry a firearm within a Place of Worship. Also, most movie theaters have signs posted to not carry a concealed weapon. Under Georgia law it is against the law to carry the gun on private property after it has been posted that the private party does not want a weapon on premise.

This is a classic example of someone who has a permit but doesn’t understand how it should be used.

When I owned a business here in Georgia, it was our policy that there were to be no firearms carried on our property. Once, we got into a dispute with the US Postal Service over a bill and they sent around their version of the police to harass me. I refused to allow them on to our property with guns and they reluctantly agreed.

Yes, if there is one thing that annoys me about the pro-gun crowd is that they think they have the right to carry guns even when it is against the law. If a person carries a gun into my church now, they are violating the law because we do not have an official policy allowing that. And yet, I am told that we do have people carrying and that trying to get them to stop would be a waste of time because they will do it anyway.

[GregH]

Greg Long wrote:

Ah, so only you deal with statistics, whereas I obviously rely on “pro-gun ideology.” Got it. And yet you could not provide evidence that there is a problem with people bringing guns to church and using them to defend people in a way that ends up doing more harm than good. While on the other hand, I can give you examples of people using their guns to successfully defend people in a church setting. So instead, you change the subject.

But of course, if you’d prefer to only attend churches that someone make it clear they don’t want people bringing their lawfully licensed guns to church, that is your right. Just don’t argue that you are taking some kind of safe high ground when you have no evidence to back up that position.

Sigh… And where are your examples? Oh yes, nonexistent… You have not a shred of evidence to back up you assertion that turning a church service into a Wild West scenario is safe. And again, before you try the strawman thing, I am not arguing against a few qualified people being armed.

But in the end, thankfully we don’t have to agree. You can feel less safe that people in your church are carrying, while I can feel more safe that people in mine are carrying. And we’re both happy!

Then you are breaking the law. In Georgia it is against the law to carry a firearm within a Place of Worship. Also, most movie theaters have signs posted to not carry a concealed weapon. Under Georgia law it is against the law to carry the gun on private property after it has been posted that the private party does not want a weapon on premise.

This is a classic example of someone who has a permit but doesn’t understand how it should be used.

This would be an incorrect statement. In 2014 Georgia HB60 removed the prohibition on places of worship allowing, rather, the church to make its own decision. It is also incorrect is that in Georgia a sign carrys legal weight of law. It is a request, at best. They can ask you to leave if discovered, and have you arrested for trespassing if you do not. There is no related “gun charge.” The sigh by itself prohibits nothing.

[ejohansen]

Then you are breaking the law. In Georgia it is against the law to carry a firearm within a Place of Worship. Also, most movie theaters have signs posted to not carry a concealed weapon. Under Georgia law it is against the law to carry the gun on private property after it has been posted that the private party does not want a weapon on premise.

This is a classic example of someone who has a permit but doesn’t understand how it should be used.

This would be an incorrect statement. In 2014 Georgia HB60 removed the prohibition on places of worship allowing, rather, the church to make its own decision. It is also incorrect is that in Georgia a sign carrys legal weight of law. It is a request, at best. They can ask you to leave if discovered, and have you arrested for trespassing if you do not. There is no related “gun charge.” The sigh by itself prohibits nothing.

A year or so ago, Georgia changed the law to allow guns in churches if the church had a policy to allow them. Every church has to decide what their policy is and until that policy is defined, guns cannot be legally carried into the church. If you carry a gun into a church without an official policy that it is OK, it is against the law. That would apply to my church which has no official policy. There are a few people there that are qualified to carry guns and do and I make no issue of it even though we have no official policy. But I am uncomfortable with the idea that anyone that wants to bring a gun to church should do so. That is frankly borderline absurd.

Again, the way you word things Greg just makes discussion with you extremely difficult: “The idea that anyone that wants to bring a gun to church should do so.”

Who is arguing this? No one. No one is arguing that anyone who wants to bring a gun to church should be able to bring a gun to church. Why do you seem to make a habit of poisoning the well or creating straw men arguments when arguing your position?

I am arguing that anyone who has passed a background check, obtained a permit, passed the necessary gun safety courses, maintains a clean record, etc., etc., etc., and who has the lawful right to carry a gun to church, should be allowed to do so. And of course we also differ on whether the presence of those people in church makes us all safer or less safe, but we will have to agree to disagree on that.

[Greg Long]

GregH wrote:

Greg Long wrote:

Ah, so only you deal with statistics, whereas I obviously rely on “pro-gun ideology.” Got it. And yet you could not provide evidence that there is a problem with people bringing guns to church and using them to defend people in a way that ends up doing more harm than good. While on the other hand, I can give you examples of people using their guns to successfully defend people in a church setting. So instead, you change the subject.

But of course, if you’d prefer to only attend churches that someone make it clear they don’t want people bringing their lawfully licensed guns to church, that is your right. Just don’t argue that you are taking some kind of safe high ground when you have no evidence to back up that position.

Sigh… And where are your examples? Oh yes, nonexistent… You have not a shred of evidence to back up you assertion that turning a church service into a Wild West scenario is safe. And again, before you try the strawman thing, I am not arguing against a few qualified people being armed.

You made the assertion that it isn’t safe, so it’s up to you to prove it. I could give you examples of intruders deterred from mass shootings through concealed weapons carriers, but a simple Google search will do take care of that. So I have examples on my side of concealed weapons in church making it safer, while you have no evidence that they make it more dangerous.

Your statistics are very selective. If you want to broaden your thinking a little, tamper your bias for 30 minutes and go look at statistics. You will find out for example that there are 4 gun accidents in homes for every 1 time a gun is used in self defense. You will learn that carrying a gun does not necessarily make anyone safer. In fact, there is evidence it makes one less safe. You will find evidence that more lenient gun laws often lead to increases in violent crime.

By the way, the decision about guns in church is not just about the tiny possibility that a terrorist may walk in and start shooting people. Trying to make this all about that is absurd. It is more about all the other days in church—the normal days where some moron that thinks a gun makes him more of a man is showing off in the lobby and kills a kid by accident when he forgets the safety is on, the normal days where a gun falls out of a pocket and discharges, the normal days where a slightly irrational person with a concealed weapon gets a little too angry.

[Greg Long]

Again, the way you word things Greg just makes discussion with you extremely difficult: “The idea that anyone that wants to bring a gun to church should do so.”

Who is arguing this? No one. No one is arguing that anyone who wants to bring a gun to church should be able to bring a gun to church. Why do you seem to make a habit of poisoning the well or creating straw men arguments when arguing your position?

I am arguing that anyone who has passed a background check, obtained a permit, passed the necessary gun safety courses, maintains a clean record, etc., etc., etc., and who has the lawful right to carry a gun to church, should be allowed to do so. And of course we also differ on whether the presence of those people in church makes us all safer or less safe, but we will have to agree to disagree on that.

Let me clarify it for you. I do not accept the idea that because someone has the legal right to carry a gun makes them qualified to bring it to church. Just like passing a driving test does not make one a good driver. It is interesting that you, a typical conservative who is suspicious of government, is more than willing to let the government decide for your church who is qualified to bring a gun into it. So, when I say “everyone,” I really mean everyone with a gun permit, which in a state like mine is not too far from everyone (or at least too close to comfort for me). In a church like mine, if everyone that was able to carry carried, our church would be full of guns. It would be beyond confusing if something actually happened.

I DO think it is reasonable that a church has a policy where there are a few highly qualified people designated as gun carriers and they are on a schedule, etc, maybe even patrolling. I think a church should openly disclose that and tell people that are not on that list to leave their guns at home.

Greg, we are not talking about homes, we are talking about churches. Don’t you think there are a few factors that are involved in home gun usage that affect those statistics, such as:

• Children finding loaded guns
• Accidents involving guns being cleaned
• Suicides
• Domestic violence (yes of course that COULD happen at church, but very rarely does)

So statistics involving home gun usage have little bearing on the discussion. The very specific discussion we are having involves an intruder intending to shoot people, because that’s what Falwell was referring to.

Of course there’s a chance the things you mentioned could happen. I still feel safer with concealed weapons allowed in church, and I appreciate that you differ. Thanks for the interaction.