Liberty University President Jerry Falwell Jr. urges students to arm themselves

[Greg Long]

GregH wrote:

Personally, I am at least as scared of bunch of unqualified people carrying guns than I am of terrorists. Terrorists are pretty rare. Half crazy, overly emotional and foolish people are not. I would not be interested in going to a church if everyone was packing guns.

How do you, GregH, determine someone is “unqualified” to carry a gun, and what gives you the right to do so? So you would not go to church if “everyone” was packing guns? What percentage of people in the church packing guns would deter you from attending? And how would you determine that in the first place? And would you change your mind if someone entered the church building and started shooting?

What gives me the right to do so? Seriously? Sorry but I give myself that right. I don’t want my family in a church where everyone is welcomed or encouraged to carry a gun. I don’t mind if a few qualified people are carrying. No I am not going to start parsing what qualified looks like. I do not think the average person is qualified though and if just anyone was allowed to carry to my church, it would alarm me.

[Bob Nutzhorn]

GregH wrote:

Personally, I am at least as scared of bunch of unqualified people carrying guns than I am of terrorists. Terrorists are pretty rare. Half crazy, overly emotional and foolish people are not. I would not be interested in going to a church if everyone was packing guns.

It is an odd thing to claim that people who attend church who also carry guns are unqualified, half crazy, overly emotional, and foolish. In my small congregation, I know that there are between 2 and 4 men carrying a concealed weapon. I would not classify them as any of those things. In fact, they have all been trained to carry, know their weapon well, have practiced with it, and are qualified to carry. Your description of concealed carry gun owners is exactly what those who oppose the second amendment want the general population to believe about gun owners, but those facts are not backed up by reality.

If you think everyone in a typical church is emotionally balanced and qualified to pull out a gun in high stress situations, you are naive. I don’t have a problem with a few qualified people carrying guns but I have a big problem where everyone is encouraged to bring guns.

Carrying a gun “in a holster” in one’s pocket? How is that in violation of gun safety?

The average person who carries a concealed gun does not advertise it. Will you put a metal detector on your church to weed out those who do?

I don’t understand, GregH. If a person has passed their background check, has taken gun safety courses, and has the permit to carry, how do you determine if they are qualified or not?

So you would rather attend a church where people are not welcome to carry their lawfully registered gun? I don’t know of any churches that forbid people from carrying their concealed weapons, but I’m sure they are out there. So you are saying you are going to choose to attend a church that explicitly forbids this?

…with arming students at Liberty is that they are generally under 21, hence ineligible to own a handgun or purchase ammunition for it. They will also likely lack the $500-$1000 required to get a carry permit. And I would agree that if indeed Mr. Falwell is carrying in his pocket, he is risking (a) theft of the weapon to pickpockets, (b) easy detection as the profile of the gun is seen, and (c) accidental discharge of that weapon into areas of his body that he doesn’t want impacted by a bullet.

So there is a degree of macho bluster in Mr. Falwell’s speech, regrettably. However, the idea that we ought to have some means of defense of self or others is welcome—for those not willing or able to carry a pistol, pepper spray and titanium canes are wonderful. I would guess that even a good stout belt might be handy at times.

Regarding Greg’s objections to carry permit holders, it’s worth noting that a known felony record or known history of serious mental illness will result in that permit being denied or revoked. Statistically speaking, it’s a pretty good system, especially since the cost of the gun, ammunition, training, and permit acts as a barrier to entry. It’s hard to be a loose cannon (unemployable with no control of personal budget) and still get a carry permit. It’s also worth noting that someone with huge problems with self-control—just might be someone who will carry whether or not he has a permit.

So your choice really isn’t whether you’ve got a given risk of having an unstable person who is armed in your church. The choice is whether or not you will have a good chance of having stable people armed in your church to deter them, really.

[Greg Long]

I don’t understand, GregH. If a person has passed their background check, has taken gun safety courses, and has the permit to carry, how do you determine if they are qualified or not?

So you would rather attend a church where people are not welcome to carry their lawfully registered gun? I don’t know of any churches that forbid people from carrying their concealed weapons, but I’m sure they are out there. So you are saying you are going to choose to attend a church that explicitly forbids this?

I don’t think passing a background check and taking gun safety courses is that big of a deal frankly. I think there is a whole other level of competency regarding whether is able to handle a high stress situation and be accurate with a hand gun. It is very hard to be accurate with a hand gun even when there is no stress. There are all sorts of psychological factors that come into play. On top of that, in a typical church, there are people that are just a bit crazy. When I look around my church, I see people that I would not want carrying a gun.

Churches have the right to define gun policy, at least here in Georgia. I am fairly sure that in about half of the states, you are not allowed to carry concealed weapons into church, permit or no. In my opinion, churches should have a gun policy where there are a few very qualified people with guns and no one else should be bringing their guns to church. And if that is indefensible as some here claim and the gun zealots would flagrantly break the church position and the law, it sort of proves the point of the anti-gun crowd doesn’t it?

It would be absolutely a factor in my decision on where to go to church as to whether anyone was allowed to carry. I don’t want 80-year-old grandmothers with shaking hands carrying guns. I don’t want 25-year-old hot heads carrying guns either.

…is that in general, you don’t need to shoot, and a lot of the time you don’t even need to brandish the weapon. Hence you don’t need the combat skills and temperament of a gladiator or Marine. You just need to make the perpetrator wonder whether you might be capable of putting rounds at center of mass. About 95% of the time, shots are not fired simply because the presence of an armed opponent serves to put the fear of God into the perpetrator.

Plus, most states have about the same four rules for using the weapon. You’ve got to have immediate fear of death or grievous bodily harm, no lesser force will do, you must retreat if it is practical, and force stops when the threat stops. More or less, you’ve got to be cornered and in fear of your life, and you’d be surprised what a person can do when that threat exists. Hence errors by carry permit holders are much lower than those for police officers.

Nothing against the police, but remember that they are required to engage, not retreat—hence they will necessarily make more mistakes.

Understanding the context of an individual’s comments is integral to understanding the intention. We would hope that most people of discernment would also know not to accept Media reports — particularly those offered of a conservative Christian leader’s statements — at face value.

Here’s some context to help:
http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=178978

http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=178995

[GregH]

Greg Long wrote:

I don’t understand, GregH. If a person has passed their background check, has taken gun safety courses, and has the permit to carry, how do you determine if they are qualified or not?

So you would rather attend a church where people are not welcome to carry their lawfully registered gun? I don’t know of any churches that forbid people from carrying their concealed weapons, but I’m sure they are out there. So you are saying you are going to choose to attend a church that explicitly forbids this?

I don’t think passing a background check and taking gun safety courses is that big of a deal frankly. I think there is a whole other level of competency regarding whether is able to handle a high stress situation and be accurate with a hand gun. It is very hard to be accurate with a hand gun even when there is no stress. There are all sorts of psychological factors that come into play. On top of that, in a typical church, there are people that are just a bit crazy. When I look around my church, I see people that I would not want carrying a gun.

Churches have the right to define gun policy, at least here in Georgia. I am fairly sure that in about half of the states, you are not allowed to carry concealed weapons into church, permit or no. In my opinion, churches should have a gun policy where there are a few very qualified people with guns and no one else should be bringing their guns to church. And if that is indefensible as some here claim and the gun zealots would flagrantly break the church position and the law, it sort of proves the point of the anti-gun crowd doesn’t it?

It would be absolutely a factor in my decision on where to go to church as to whether anyone was allowed to carry. I don’t want 80-year-old grandmothers with shaking hands carrying guns. I don’t want 25-year-old hot heads carrying guns either.

[Greg Long]

GregH wrote:

Greg Long wrote:

I don’t understand, GregH. If a person has passed their background check, has taken gun safety courses, and has the permit to carry, how do you determine if they are qualified or not?

So you would rather attend a church where people are not welcome to carry their lawfully registered gun? I don’t know of any churches that forbid people from carrying their concealed weapons, but I’m sure they are out there. So you are saying you are going to choose to attend a church that explicitly forbids this?

I don’t think passing a background check and taking gun safety courses is that big of a deal frankly. I think there is a whole other level of competency regarding whether is able to handle a high stress situation and be accurate with a hand gun. It is very hard to be accurate with a hand gun even when there is no stress. There are all sorts of psychological factors that come into play. On top of that, in a typical church, there are people that are just a bit crazy. When I look around my church, I see people that I would not want carrying a gun.

Churches have the right to define gun policy, at least here in Georgia. I am fairly sure that in about half of the states, you are not allowed to carry concealed weapons into church, permit or no. In my opinion, churches should have a gun policy where there are a few very qualified people with guns and no one else should be bringing their guns to church. And if that is indefensible as some here claim and the gun zealots would flagrantly break the church position and the law, it sort of proves the point of the anti-gun crowd doesn’t it?

It would be absolutely a factor in my decision on where to go to church as to whether anyone was allowed to carry. I don’t want 80-year-old grandmothers with shaking hands carrying guns. I don’t want 25-year-old hot heads carrying guns either.

Can you point to a specific example where someone came into church with the intent to kill, and someone else pulled out a gun to defend people but because of a lack of training injured or killed more people than the intruder?

There are almost no church shootings to draw on for data (to support your position or mine) and maybe none where there were people in the congregation armed with guns. But if you want to get past pro-gun ideology and read some real statistics, there is plenty of evidence that suggests that carrying a gun in general is more dangerous than not carrying a gun. For example, there are four gun accidents that occur at home for every time a gun is used in self defense.

Stats, examples, accidents, etc… The bottom line is that it IS a constitutional right and one that is VERY important to a majority of Americans. While I’m not sure it was particularly wise to announce to a room of college students that he was packing, I will say that I’m grateful for the opportunities provided by the 2nd Amendment and the failure to use this freedom properly is no more a justification to reduce or eliminate it than it would be to require the registration of Muslims, limit anti-Muslim speech or other constitutionally-protected RIGHTS. The topic is an electric rail and liberals are foolish to keep playing with it. I enjoy carrying…it makes me feel secure. I don’t announce when I’m carrying, but places like churches and movie theaters are certainly likely potential locations for madmen and I tend not to be unprepared.
FTR, most church shootings are done in churches of color and by upset family members of someone there. That’s a stat polite and PC people don’t discuss, but it is real nonetheless.

Ah, so only you deal with statistics, whereas I obviously rely on “pro-gun ideology.” Got it. And yet you could not provide evidence that there is a problem with people bringing guns to church and using them to defend people in a way that ends up doing more harm than good. While on the other hand, I can give you examples of people using their guns to successfully defend people in a church setting. So instead, you change the subject.

But of course, if you’d prefer to only attend churches that someone make it clear they don’t want people bringing their lawfully licensed guns to church, that is your right. Just don’t argue that you are taking some kind of safe high ground when you have no evidence to back up that position.

[Greg Long]

Ah, so only you deal with statistics, whereas I obviously rely on “pro-gun ideology.” Got it. And yet you could not provide evidence that there is a problem with people bringing guns to church and using them to defend people in a way that ends up doing more harm than good. While on the other hand, I can give you examples of people using their guns to successfully defend people in a church setting. So instead, you change the subject.

But of course, if you’d prefer to only attend churches that someone make it clear they don’t want people bringing their lawfully licensed guns to church, that is your right. Just don’t argue that you are taking some kind of safe high ground when you have no evidence to back up that position.

Sigh… And where are your examples? Oh yes, nonexistent… You have not a shred of evidence to back up you assertion that turning a church service into a Wild West scenario is safe. And again, before you try the strawman thing, I am not arguing against a few qualified people being armed.