Public education cannot be viewed as an acceptable alternative. It is anti-God.

[Don Johnson]

dgszweda wrote:

It is amazing that we could even find any Christians in places like China without a solid FBFI Christian School being present for parents to send their kids to.

But it seems to me that you are betraying a bit of an over the top antagonism by this statement.

I was also a product of the public schools. I think my education was good academically, but there was no spiritual help available. I would be loathe to put my children in the public system, and I did not. We used the Abeka videos, I was pleased with the results, though it was difficult and costly. In my opinion, the sacrifice necessary to provide a Christian education for my children was far superior to the convenience of the public system. I wouldn’t say dogmatically that it is the only option that should be followed, but I would advise parents to try to find an acceptable option outside of the public system if at all possible.

I agree my statement was antagonistic. The purpose was to show the flipside of the equally antagonistic statement the author makes, “Public education simply cannot be viewed as an acceptable alternative”.

I place my kids in the public education system because of priorities. Everyone makes the assumption, you included, that not sending your kid to a Christian school is to save money. I have no issues with the money. I can send all of my kids to an expensive Christian school with no financial sacrifice on my side. I am sending them to a public school, because in my scenario I feel it is superior to what they would receive in a Christian school. I make no condemnation to those who send their kids to a Christian school. I fully support you in doing that. The problem is that the author is very black and white. I can tell you flat out, that my kids spiritual health has improved being in a public school compared to when they were in a Christian school. I know that is not true for everyone. But for the author to condemn me and state that it is because of my priorities or that I am trying to save money is shameful.

[dgszweda]

Don Johnson wrote:

dgszweda wrote:

It is amazing that we could even find any Christians in places like China without a solid FBFI Christian School being present for parents to send their kids to.

But it seems to me that you are betraying a bit of an over the top antagonism by this statement.

I agree my statement was antagonistic. The purpose was to show the flipside of the equally antagonistic statement the author makes, “Public education simply cannot be viewed as an acceptable alternative”.

But that is not what I was objecting to. You used the term “solid FBFI Christian School” as if what the author is advocating is some kind of FBFI thing. That was unnecessarily pejorative, in my opinion, and betrays something wrong in your attitude. Again, my opinion.

[dgszweda] I place my kids in the public education system because of priorities. Everyone makes the assumption, you included, that not sending your kid to a Christian school is to save money.

And now you are assuming that I am assuming your motives. I merely said that I thought the sacrifice necessary for home-schooling was worth it. There is more to the sacrifice than money, though that is part of it. An incredible amount of work and time go into it as well. My wife was so overworked with it that I took on the cooking in our house for several years. My kids have “fond” memories of my improvisations! (Not really…) But I was making no assumptions about your motives, merely stating that there are things that need to be sacrificed if you are going to homeschool and again saying that I am satisfied that the sacrifice is worth it.

[dgszweda] I can tell you flat out, that my kids spiritual health has improved being in a public school compared to when they were in a Christian school. I know that is not true for everyone. But for the author to condemn me and state that it is because of my priorities or that I am trying to save money is shameful.

Well, wait and see. I don’t remember how old your kids are, I think I may have met them that time we were in GA. I don’t think, however, the author is condemning you, I think you are being a little overly sensitive.

[Larry Nelson]

Don Johnson wrote:

I was also a product of the public schools. I think my education was good academically, but there was no spiritual help available.

The underlined portion in Don’s quote I think is one of the keys to understanding why this is such a hot-button issue for many Christians.

Speaking for myself, I don’t see why Christians would or should expect their child’s school (whether public, private, Christian, or whatever) to provide “spiritual help” for their child(ren).

When I say “there was no spiritual help available”, that may be an understatement. My public school system actually attacked spiritual life in many different ways. The pressure was intense, but I was not one to buckle to pressure. (Perhaps you may have noticed this trait continuing!!!) However, even when the pressure abated somewhat, there was nothing to bolster my faith at all. When I went off to Christian college it was such a refreshing relief. Not that there weren’t ungodly influences/pressures, but at least it wasn’t coming from the teachers and leadership. The difference was night and day, and I was very grateful for the daylight.

[Don Johnson]

But that is not what I was objecting to. You used the term “solid FBFI Christian School” as if what the author is advocating is some kind of FBFI thing. That was unnecessarily pejorative, in my opinion, and betrays something wrong in your attitude. Again, my opinion.

[/quote = Don Johnson]

I wrote that on purpose. Again, I am not picking on FBFI or anything, it was truly to make a general point

And now you are assuming that I am assuming your motives. I merely said that I thought the sacrifice necessary for home-schooling was worth it. There is more to the sacrifice than money, though that is part of it. An incredible amount of work and time go into it as well. My wife was so overworked with it that I took on the cooking in our house for several years. My kids have “fond” memories of my improvisations! (Not really…) But I was making no assumptions about your motives, merely stating that there are things that need to be sacrificed if you are going to homeschool and again saying that I am satisfied that the sacrifice is worth it.

You stated it was costly and that was a sacrifice that was a challenge. The fact is that, if you did not mean to state, that cost was the challenge, than it should be equal. We spend significant time and sacrifice with our kids in a public school. We all sit down and do homework until 9pm every night, we have all kinds of activities and so on. Just as anyone else would. That was the only point I was making. I fully agree with you that homeschooling is a ton of work as well. We have many friends who homeschool and it is an effort.

Well, wait and see. I don’t remember how old your kids are, I think I may have met them that time we were in GA. I don’t think, however, the author is condemning you, I think you are being a little overly sensitive.

My goal was not to state that my kids were on some spiritual pedestal. Just that things they have done have surprised me. They have taken some very hard stands, have witnessed…. despite the challenges in a public school. I am not hurt by the author, was just making a general statement. I used, myself as an audience member to the article, not an individual who is being narrowed out by the author.

I have been involved in Christian education for almost 40 years. I remember the early 80’s when our optimism made us look almost pre-millenial. Things are a much different today.

Let me preface my next statements by saying that there are a few good Christian schools today, but they are few and far between. By good, I mean schools with qualified teachers, quality curricula, supportive Christian parents, and spiritual atmosphere and emphasis.

However most of the Christian schools I see are not near the quality of those of the early years. Academics are sub-par with few secondary teachers having degrees in their fields. Spiritual standards seem low as the troublesome behavior of students in Christian schools mirrors those of their public school counterparts.

The slogan: “Our school doesn’t have same-sex restrooms, we don’t advocate immorality and homosexuality, and we have daily prayer and Bible class” is not enough.

The Christian school movement is in serious decline. I live in an affluent suburban area with 2 or 3 supposedly “top-notch” Christian schools that are shrinking rapidly and none of which I would recommend to parents.

There are good options for home-schooling and there are excellent private schools if one can afford them. And children of involved parents can and do survive in public schools.

BTW, I used to use the old “hot-house tomatoes” argument (protect your children from the elements) and then I ate a hot-house tomato.

I agree with the author. Public schools assume ownership of children, acting in loco parentis in ways that are not appropriate IMO. But all institutions that oversee the care and education of children assume this, and I don’t think it’s more OK for a Christian school to assume the parenting of a child than for a public school to do so. And that is generally what happens: sometimes because the school is overstepping, sometimes because parents are abdicating their responsibilities, and sometimes it’s both.

I agree that public education is essentially anti-God. Education is not the transfer of information in a vacuum. We own several shelves of textbooks used in our local public schools, and much of the information, as well as themes, are thoroughly anti-God. Even if there are good Christian teachers in public schools, they are not free to share their faith or contradict the mandated curriculum. They walk a very fine line in order to be able to do their jobs in good conscience, and I don’t envy their position. I wish them well and pray for them daily.
Children, especially young ones, will be affected and influenced by the beliefs and actions of their teachers and peers. The depersonalization and institutionalization of education is harmful to the development of critical thinking skills and the exercise of creativity. But this is also true of Christian schools, and why I often refer to Christian schools as public schools with a cross over the door and chapel three times a week. The worse things I ever did or witnessed were in a Christian school with my Christian friends. I simply can’t look at Christian schools as some kind of all-encompassing answer.

Even if at some point in American history our education system was at liberty to acknowledge and teach about God, I’ve never been one to look at ‘the good old days’ with rose-colored glasses. They had an entirely different set of issues going on in 1647, and I’ll take the problems I have right now, thanks.

Much of the problem with questions like this IMO is that to discuss it properly, we need to make some separations between “the system” and the individuals in the system.

For starters, the system is a dinosaur.

• Grading (as it is typically used) is inherently problematic.
• We start formal schooling too early.
• Classroom stress affects learning
• Methods of discipline in educational institutions are often emotionally abusive.
• American schoolchildren are becoming less creative, which results in less innovation.

Most Christian schools simply ‘Christianize’ the public school/traditional classroom model.

As to individuals, a family living in rural KY has different needs and resources than one in San Francisco or Detroit. What is detrimental to one child might build character in another. There is never going to be a one-size-fits-all answer to this question. And this is why parents MUST exercise laser-focused discernment, and be thoughtful, purposeful, and informed about their children and their education options. Accepting ANY answer ‘by default’ is wrong and IMO flat out lazy.

Where I am much more hesitant to agree with Mr. Suiter is under “What do Christian parents think about Christian education?”

My family cannot afford it. This is probably the reason most frequently given. And one cannot deny that private Christian school education is expensive and requires sacrificing other things so that Christian education can be provided. But many times that reason is given when the family is able to afford many other things of lesser importance.

Who makes the determination of whether or not a family’s financial priorities are in line with what is ‘important’? To look at one’s Christian brothers and sisters with kids in PS and think “If they down-sized their home” or “If they didn’t have such expensive cars” “They went on vacation, I wonder how much that cost?” invites some seriously bad stuff into one’s heart and mind. And then what good does Christian schooling do for that family, other than breed contempt for other Christians who put their kids in PS?

The public school offers a broader course selection. That statement may also be true. But the core of a sound curriculum is available in a Christian school setting and such schools are now being able to expand the breadth and depth of their curricular offerings. This reason lacks merit when examined in light of data from follow-up studies of Christian school graduates. They do well in college and in life.

I’m sorry, but I laughed when I read that. I see both Christian and public schools seriously lacking in the teacher qualifications dept. Just because there is a broader course selection doesn’t mean a child will learn or be challenged. The traditional classroom method can be summed up easily: “Read the chapter. Answer the chapter questions. Take the test.” Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary. And both PS and Christian school kids “do well in college and in life”. That’s not exactly a compelling argument from my POV.

And I’m going to channel Clara Peller and say “Where’s the data?” Were their successes a result of their education in a Christian school, or the result of involved, dedicated, Godly parents? Why give the school credit when the first point of this article is about parental responsibility?

I think the reasons families make specific choices comes under the heading of “Ain’t nobody’s business but their’n”.

Basically, if one is teaching/preaching solid Biblical parenting principles, families who are seeking God’s direction for their families will find it and fulfill it to the best of their ability. And for those families who don’t give a hoot, all the negativity and disparaging and threatening in the world will not change their mind.

I think the question each parent must confront themselves with is “How well do you know your kids, and have you educated yourself about the available education options and exercised intellectual and spiritual discernment about this decision?” As I said, I agree with the author that this aspect of parenting, regardless of the options available, TOTALLY falls on the parents. Most excuses parents have for not doing what is best for their family are lame - we need to buck up and learn how to bear the responsibility for our decisions on our own shoulders.

If you believe this about public schools, would you accept public school teachers and staff into your church membership?

Here is a blog post with a more balanced view of possible weaknesses of each system of education (Public, Private, and Homeschooling). http://shapkancoffee.weebly.com/blog/back-to-school-guide-for-parents

[Susan R]

I agree with the author. Public schools assume ownership of children, acting in loco parentis in ways that are not appropriate IMO. But all institutions that oversee the care and education of children assume this, and I don’t think it’s more OK for a Christian school to assume the parenting of a child than for a public school to do so. And that is generally what happens: sometimes because the school is overstepping, sometimes because parents are abdicating their responsibilities, and sometimes it’s both.

I agree that public education is essentially anti-God. Education is not the transfer of information in a vacuum. We own several shelves of textbooks used in our local public schools, and much of the information, as well as themes, are thoroughly anti-God. Even if there are good Christian teachers in public schools, they are not free to share their faith or contradict the mandated curriculum. They walk a very fine line in order to be able to do their jobs in good conscience, and I don’t envy their position. I wish them well and pray for them daily.

Children, especially young ones, will be affected and influenced by the beliefs and actions of their teachers and peers. The depersonalization and institutionalization of education is harmful to the development of critical thinking skills and the exercise of creativity. But this is also true of Christian schools, and why I often refer to Christian schools as public schools with a cross over the door and chapel three times a week. The worse things I ever did or witnessed were in a Christian school with my Christian friends. I simply can’t look at Christian schools as some kind of all-encompassing answer.

Even if at some point in American history our education system was at liberty to acknowledge and teach about God, I’ve never been one to look at ‘the good old days’ with rose-colored glasses. They had an entirely different set of issues going on in 1647, and I’ll take the problems I have right now, thanks.

Much of the problem with questions like this IMO is that to discuss it properly, we need to make some separations between “the system” and the individuals in the system.

For starters, the system is a dinosaur.

• Grading (as it is typically used) is inherently problematic.
• We start formal schooling too early.
• Classroom stress affects learning
• Methods of discipline in educational institutions are often emotionally abusive.
• American schoolchildren are becoming less creative, which results in less innovation.

Most Christian schools simply ‘Christianize’ the public school/traditional classroom model.

I don’t entirely buy the statement that the US public education system is a failure or in shambles. I am a senior executive in a large multi-billion dollar global organization. I am in IT and as a result I am constantly assessing, interviewing and interacting with kids coming out of our public colleges. And despite the studies, I am amazed at the creativity and the attitude that these young people have. Despite the failures of the American education system touted by studies, the US still leads the world in innovation. I have teams in many countries around the globe, and the type of graduates I see in countries like France or India don’t even compare with what I see coming out of the US. We host an international hackathon every year where kids come and compete in solving real world challenges we have in the business world, and the things that are produced in a 24 hour period amaze me. I know there are problems with the system, and we have our issues, but I am just not ready to write it off as a total and utter failure.

[dgszweda]

I don’t entirely buy the statement that the US public education system is a failure or in shambles. I am a senior executive in a large multi-billion dollar global organization. I am in IT and as a result I am constantly assessing, interviewing and interacting with kids coming out of our public colleges. And despite the studies, I am amazed at the creativity and the attitude that these young people have. Despite the failures of the American education system touted by studies, the US still leads the world in innovation. I have teams in many countries around the globe, and the type of graduates I see in countries like France or India don’t even compare with what I see coming out of the US. We host an international hackathon every year where kids come and compete in solving real world challenges we have in the business world, and the things that are produced in a 24 hour period amaze me. I know there are problems with the system, and we have our issues, but I am just not ready to write it off as a total and utter failure.

As a product of Christian education and now an administrator of Christian School, I have a different view of the education provided by Christian Schools than many of the above have. Teaching the Christian youth - our next generation of family, church, and community leaders - a Biblical worldview and reinforcing that Biblical worldview in every class, is a high priority for our school. We do struggle with this at times, like any Christian School, but it is a high priority and point of emphasis. You cannot say that it is at the public school. Instead, the emphasis is on secular humanism, and that point of emphasis is carried through in every part of the education. The public school is religious, but their religion is humanism. Beginning with the origin of man and continuing all the way through the day to day morality taught, students are taught to dismiss God’s teaching. That has an effect on our society, our families, and our churches. Some parents and some students have a very effective way to counter that teaching, but I do not think it is possible to deny that the teaching is there. Here is a study that was done concerning the goals of alternative education. It is an important study, one that does reveal that the Christian School is having a positive influence in the Biblical Worldview of the youth it serves. Note that I am not saying that you cannot have a Biblical Worldview if you attend a public school, but I am saying that a Biblical Worldview is encouraged, taught, and supported better in a Christian School than in other school choices.

[Bob Nutzhorn]

Note that I am not saying that you cannot have a Biblical Worldview if you attend a public school, but I am saying that a Biblical Worldview is encouraged, taught, and supported better in a Christian School than in other school choices.

Emphasis above mine.

I generally agree with what you posted, but I disagree with this last as applied to home schooling. My wife and I homeschooled for 8 years (after our kids had attended a Christian day school), and although I’m sure there is much we could have done better, and things that were done better in both public and Christian day schools, I would say that our ability to impart a biblical worldview is at least as good as that in a Christian day school, and obviously better than in a public school. I taught apologetics, as well as critical thinking from a biblical worldview, and every other subject we taught was also with the biblical worldview at the forefront. To say that a Christian day school can accomplish this better than homeschooling is something I would have to have shown to me, not just asserted. If you only meant non-Christian educational choices, then I agreee.

According to the study, my statement was correct. In most Biblical Worldview areas, the Christian School scored higher than the “Religious Homeschool.” I do agree that most on SI would do a better job than the Christian School, but generally speaking, the Christian School has a stronger influence - according to this study.