John Piper and Mark Driscoll: lessons not learned?

Phil Johnson came on the SI and said a few things about John MacArthur’s salary. You can interpret what you want out of it, but take another look at the thread.

Mark

I couldn’t resist - Thomas the Tank Engine demonstrates what has happened to this thread:

Reading earlier posts I found a reference to www.guidestar.org. This group posts the 990s for non-profits. So, I made an account and looked up Grace To You. Here is John MacArthur’s salary for 2010-2012, the only years listed. This is only from GTY and not other interests for John like the college/seminary and church.

2010 $222,778

2011 $402,444

2012 $246,586

So, it looks like John MacArthur’s salary is usually in the low-mid 200K range.

At some point, you need to stop digging yourself in deeper on this matter because it does look like you’re trying to make this an issue when it is not (at least to me and several others).

First off, the PyroManiacs blog has nothing to do with GTY or Dr. MacArthur. The only connection is that Phil was involved, and he stopped working with the blog several years ago, as per his post from this thread earlier. He even made a ‘retirement announcement’ of sorts on Pyro, which I’m linking to in case you would like to read it. Here’s the critical part:

Today was my 59th birthday. In other words, I’m now officially in my 60th year. Last week I did some careful reflecting; I also did some calculating; and it was—how shall I say this?—unsettling. Convicting. Alarming. In the very best case, I figure I might have a decade and a half of productive full-time labor left. Looking back on the past 15 years, I realize that’s avery brief time. I want to make the most of it.
Thursday my doctor confirmed what I was beginning to think: I need to cut out everything non-essential in my life that causes stress without giving me any cardiovascular benefit. I hate when geriatric patients recite the details of their medical reports, so let’s just say that the doctor was serious: It’s time for me to stop burning the candle at both ends.Darlene emphatically affirmed that diagnosis. Everyone who loves me is likewise in hearty agreement.
So: (gladly, with no reluctance whatsoever) I’m officially retiring from blogging, social media, and every other activity that intrudes on things that ought to be the real priorities in the final two decades of a man’s life.
I started blogging 7 years ago because I was concerned about the drift of postmodern evangelicalism and the Emerging Church Movement. I’ve said everything I have to say about that issue—and many more issues. In fact, as I think about it, I have probably at one point or another blogged about almost everything I’m really passionate about. I don’t have any significant opinions left.

Secondly, you said that “If there is ambiguity about John MacArthur’s salary, that is not my fault!” at 10:51 and then you get on and post the last three years of MacArthur’s salary not even three hours later. You got the answer you sought - so why are you dragging the matter up again and republicizing your question?

It’s a little like Yoda’s rhetorical question to Emperor Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith - “If so powerful you are, why leave?”

If you were serious about your question and serious about receiving the truth of the answer from Phil and serious about wanting to move on…then why do you keep bringing it up? Just accept the comments from Dave and others and move on gracefully.

To get back on topic, I offer you Kent Brandenburg’s thoughts.

A few observations:

1. Kent is right. It isn’t just John Piper who is a problem here.
2. Mark isn’t so far off. John MacArthur is inconsistent with respect to Piper.
3. The immorality of Driscoll and the openness to ongoing revelation by Piper - which is worse?

This part-

If separation really was popular, there sure isn’t very much of it. I don’t see it in evangelicalism. They don’t write about it, except to mock it. Most of the attention is paid to what evangelicals call “unity,” which isn’t biblical unity, so it isn’t unity. It’s the kind of unity you see at a family reunion, where everyone agrees to keep the conversation on a few non-offensive subjects. There is far more talk about unity and emphasis on unity, very little to none on separation. So I talk about separation again, a word that you rarely hear in evangelicalism, except to ridicule.

Is flatly wrong and misleading. Do Evangelicals define themselves by separation like Fundamentalists do? No. But to say that it is a word you rarely hear in Evangelicalism “except to ridicule” is false and misleading. TeamPyro, as a very fast example, talk about separation, and do it regularly. But it’s not the kind of “Be Ye Holy” separatism that Fundamentalism largely centers on and is concerned with and writes books about. Even CJ Mahaney wrote a book on separation, but he didn’t title it as such.

They can do better, but they do discuss it, teach on it, and practice it.

When Phil came on he said his things, then I said “OK, let’s move on.” DanPhillips appears and asks why I hadn’t been publicly flogged.

I posted the salary answers from guidestar because I found them and wanted to post them for all to see. My question was did Pyro know…they never answered.

[Jay]

But to say that it is a word you rarely hear in Evangelicalism “except to ridicule” is false and misleading. TeamPyro, as a very fast example, talk about separation, and do it regularly.

Ok Jay, here’s a challenge for you. Go to Pyromaniacs and search for the term separation. Report back how often it turns up.

[Don Johnson]

Jay wrote:

But to say that it is a word you rarely hear in Evangelicalism “except to ridicule” is false and misleading. TeamPyro, as a very fast example, talk about separation, and do it regularly.

Ok Jay, here’s a challenge for you. Go to Pyromaniacs and search for the term separation. Report back how often it turns up.

separation site:teampyro.blogspot.com

and I got this result:

About 261 results (0.40 seconds)

Pretty cool huh?

Google defaults me to teampyro.blogspot.ca. That returned 41 hits. Changing it to .com duplicated your results. More later

Canadian-centric to me. ;)

[Don Johnson]

Google defaults me to teampyro.blogspot.ca. That returned 41 hits. Changing it to .com duplicated your results. More later

In the same thread the Team Pyro guys are accused of “throwing a lot of arrows around”, and yet not separating sufficiently from Piper.

Carrying on a discussion with us must be something like arguing with your wife. If you lose, you lose. If you win, you lose.

…

A personal note: back in the day I was somewhat enamored with Driscoll and the apparent impact he was having in a pagan environment. I saw TeamPyro’s insistent warnings as mean-spirited and counter-productive. Boy, was I wrong! As Driscoll descended into his increasing craziness and ego-driven self-destruction, it became apparent that the Pyro guys had seen this a long way off, and provided a clear, consistent warning, while exercising restraint in dealing with the “arrows” that came in their direction.

So, for what it’s worth, thanks to Johnson, Philips and Turk for opening my eyes and for consistently warning about the train-wreck to come. You were right, I was wrong.

Andrew, I remember reading about Mr. Driscoll in the early days of his ministry—as far back as 1999 or so I think—and I remember thinking way back that the whole “emerging” or “emergent” church deal was big on sizzle and low on steak back then. Wasn’t my area, so I wasn’t terribly worried about it then. That said, I’d be interested in knowing what the “early signs” of problems were. I’ve looked up the Pyro crowd, and it appears that a certain vulgarity, theological laxness, and coarseness was typical of him. Are these the warning signs that we might look for?

260 hits sounds like a lot… I don’t have time to go through them all, but many of the uses of the term separation on the Pyro site are in the comments or on other topics than ecclesiastical separation (Like this one: ” Between those who are in Christ Jesus and the great God, there will never be another separation. “Who shall separate us from the love of God?” from an Aug 4 2013 post). So while the number 260 sounds impressive it isn’t as impressive as you might think.

Also, the hits go back at least as far as 2006. That’s nine years ago. Assuming 200 posting days a year (roughly, leaving off weekends), that’s approximately 1800 posts unless there was more than one per day. So less than 260 out of 1800 is not quite the same as “regularly” talking about separation, as Jay claimed.

Now, in fairness, I wouldn’t say that the Pyro guys are non-separatists. They are more likely to be separatists than most evangelicals. But they (and others in the MacArthur “camp” - to coin a phrase!) are probably the best example you have. I think Kent’s point on this stands, despite Jay’s comments.

Here is an interesting interview of Mark Minnick by Mark Dever on the subject of separation.