Don Johnson: An open letter to John MacArthur

[Don Johnson] Yet it is THE question. If you think Charismatism is so heretical, how can you work with a guy who is so committed to it?

“If you think Charismatism is so heretical, how can you work with a guy who is so committed to it? “

Responses:

• How much does John Mac “work with these guys”? Is being in a conference with them “work[ing] with them”?
• How committed is say Piper to charismatics. He doesn’t speak in tongues (yes I know he said somewhere (and we posted it as a filing) that he wished he spoke in tongues

Suppose I say:

• I wish I had the gift of healing (and by the way anyone who has done much hospital calling sometimes wishes he had it!)
• I wish I could heal a paralytic! I wish I had the gift of prophecy!
• Wishing doesn’t make one a charismatic!

I’m going to sidestep the whole issue of Don’s motives in his open letter. I will note, though, that the question of Piper and MacArthur’s relationship has been raised before and I’m still confused myself on it. I think that this is a matter of friendships clouding relationship - something that the FBFI has had problems with in the past itself. I don’t have a problem with their being friends and noted that MacArthur seemed frustrated when discussing Piper at Strange Fire and it seemed to me that he wished that Piper would reconsider his own position and relationships.
That being said - this podcast (https://soundcloud.com/askpastorjohn/what-is-prophecy-today-episode) might be helpful if we are going to discuss any of this intelligently.

John Piper addressed this whole issue of what exactly ‘prophesy’ is in a Podcast; one of four (one, the one I linked to, three, and four) that he did right around the time of Strange Fire. If you want to know what he thinks, I’d suggest anyone listen to those episodes - they’re about 8 minutes long each, IIRC, so it shouldn’t take too long at all.

How many of you are basically using “attack the messenger” non-arguments to somehow discredit mine. Since they aren’t arguments, I’ll ignore them, other than this notice.

Also interesting that no one has commented on the GTY link I provided where the GTY writers use essentially the same argument against Michael Brown as I do against Dr. MacArthur. Does no one think that is passing strange?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

This is the same kind of dialogue I want to see on the other side of the fence among the FBFI who gloss over KJVO and anti-Calvinistic men in the circles. It seems to be, for both groups, an elevation of personal relationship that trumps truth, and that is something I find very dagerous.

Chip, I think it is worth raising these questions, but probably this isn’t the thread to do it. I will make two comments here, though:

First, I can see how some in the KJO camp have a problem with inerrancy and inspiration, which makes it a big deal. However, I don’t see that all of them do. It is a worthwhile problem to discuss (and I think there has been a fair amount of that on SI!).

Second, I have a harder time seeing how anti-Calvinism rises to this level. Baptists and Fundamentalists have always had men who hold to differing views of soteriology while all affirming salvation by faith alone through Christ alone. I am not sure why we should make this an issue of separation or muzzle vigorous debate or rhetoric.

Don,

I don’t want to sidetrack the thread; I only used those as examples. I would clarify by saying I don’t mean those who simply disagree with Calvinism, but those who classify it as heresy as was done a few years ago at a regional FBFI meeting. My point was that we all have to be very careful making doctrinal exceptions for “friends” because relationships can easily cloud our judgement.

so i see both points of view—don johnson’s and john macarthur’s. I might agree with MacAurthur actually and be fine with working with john piper if i were in his shoes b/c Piper doesn’t really promote the charasmatic portrait that MacArthur is attacking (rightfully).

for example, i deal with several shades of charasmatics in Ukraine in my prolife work. Some I have no problem working with.

they are spiritually mature, sound teachers, ethical.

others are flakes—showy, unethical, untrustworthy.

(Perhaps not unlike baptists, pentacostals, presbyterians, etc)

if john piper were promoting tongues as a sign of “arrival,” baptism, etc. that’s one thing. but he doesnt’ do that.

[Anne Sokol]

so i see both points of view—don johnson’s and john macarthur’s. I might agree with MacAurthur actually and be fine with working with john piper if i were in his shoes b/c Piper doesn’t really promote the charasmatic portrait that MacArthur is attacking (rightfully).

I would encourage you to listen to the material from the Strange Fire conference. I can’t remember which session, might have been Phil Johnson or one of the discussion sessions, but it was pointed out that Piper endorsed as a true prophet a guy who was subsequently exposed for gross immorality. (Can’t quite remember the name, so don’t want to guess.) When challenged on it, he did not rescind the endorsement of the book (it was republished subsequent to the immorality) because he considered the guy to be a true prophet when prophesying. Not to mention that the guy’s alleged prophecies had an abysmal “success rate”. If you dig deeply into Piper’s endorsement and promotion of charismatism and mystical Christianity, I think you would be surprised at what you find.

i don’t think that promoting charismatism is the main thrust of Piper’s ministry/books. Most people will remain unaware of it, and i think MacArthur realizes that.

John MacArthur has a lengthy Q&A page on the GTY page dealing with questions that were raised at the Strange Fire conference that they could not have answered in time. I’m going to re-listen to the Piper podcasts I linked to above to get a sense of where Piper is at (I listened to one this morning, and he spent quite a bit of time in I Corinthians), but then I want to contrast his treatment of the passages with Dr. MacArthur’s. From what I read, Piper does —NOT— believe in prophesies in the sense of forth-telling, but as the illuminating work of the Spirit in the life of believers, especially those who are preaching. I think I understand his point, but I’m not convinced.
And for goodness sake, let’s stop pillorying Don and the FBFI. I don’t know why he felt the need to write an open letter on P&D, but surely we can address what he is saying without rehashing the FBFI’s faults again on this site.

I’m really not trying to be snide, but who cares what Piper believes about prophesy? He’s in a very different orbit than me, and what he does has no impact on me. Neither does MacArthur. I’ve never read any of their books or even listened to one of their sermons. I really don’t care what Piper thinks. The folks in my church seem to be obsessed about the “evil global takeover of Islam,” and John Hagee’s blood moon fetish lately. I’m not worried about Piper. When he writes his Systematic, perhaps we’ll all know for sure.

I’d just much rather spend my time reading the Bible, or perusing my new Charles Hodge Systematic Theology (just $19.99 from Christianbook.com!).

Tyler,

Realize that JMac is one of the most influential pastors in America. His radio program, books, commentaries, study Bible, and seminary have an immense impact. I recommend most of his materials with certain caveats. Nevertheless, there is a significant inconsistency here and Don has pointed that out. I would not call it hypocrisy, however. Don Carson once said that perfect consistency in the hobgoblin of Lilliputian minds. In other words, all of us have some inconsistency. This one by Mac seems rather obvious to me. JMac is probably assessing his ministry relationship with Piper. I have more confidence in JMac’s judgment and discernment than I do Piper’s. I trust that in the end Mac will come to the right conclusion. Often times, there are conversations going on behind the scenes between these men privy only to them where they are attempting to resolve disagreements and influence one another. Perhaps, that is what is taking place. Nevertheless, I applaud Mac for having his strange fire conference and exposing the errors of the third-wave “charisma”. Hopefully, Piper will read Mac’s new book.

Mike:

I agree that MacArthur is being inconsistent. I agree he is very influential to a whole lot of folks. In my last comment, I was questioning Jay’s intention to listen to John Piper podcasts to discern his take on prophesy. I just don’t care what Piper thinks about prophesy.

Perhaps I’m strange, but I don’t understand the fascination with big name Christian authors. I’ve somehow missed being touched with the “I love MacArthur, Piper, [insert any other name here] ” Christian celebrity theologian madness. I just don’t understand. Maybe it’s because I didn’t grow up as a Christian, didn’t live in the same world as so many other Pastors did, and never read the same books others grew up reading. I just look at things differently. I got a gushing marketing email yesterday announcing Tim Keller’s newest book on Romans. I grimaced and deleted it.

I agree that MacArthur is being inconsistent. I agree he is very influential to a whole lot of folks. In my last comment, I was questioning Jay’s intention to listen to John Piper podcasts to discern his take on prophesy. I just don’t care what Piper thinks about prophesy.

Hi Taylor-

Appreciate the back and forth, and wanted to clarify for you. Don wrote (and I’ve heard this myself on his podcast):

Yet, as [MacArthur] cite on p. 237, John Piper is one who thinks tongues are legitimate and testifies to regularly praying “A lot of my brothers and sisters have this toy, have this gift. Can I have it too?” It is astonishing that someone like Piper who seems orthodox in so many ways can be taken in by this kind of fraudulent teaching. What confuses me about him is that he is one who has stood stoutly for the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture in so many other ways.

The issue (as I see it) is that Piper seems to define prophesy differently from both Mac and Don. If Piper doesn’t define the gift of prophesy (which is what Don is talking about) the way that Don does, then we need to understand that and realize that Don’s criticism (of Mac’s relationship with Piper) may be…not correct (for lack of a better term) because he is the one misunderstanding Piper’s position. That means there is a HUGE weakness in Don’s open letter / call for whatever it is that Don’s calling for, which I still don’t understand. Is Don calling for clarification? Repentance? Naming Piper from the pulpit as a threat?

I’ve read probably ten or twelve Piper books, a bunch of his podcasts, and have listened to him speak a few times (Resolved and his Podcasts) - and I do have a permalink to his free resources on the eBooks thread - but I don’t remember ever reading anything by Piper where he argued for miraculous and ongoing revelation on a par with Biblical inspiration. If I did, it would have jumped out at me, I’m fairly sure. That’s why I’m making an issue out of this.

One more point - I know that you said you don’t get the fascination with ‘big name pastors’, and I agree with you there…I have a Keller book that’s been on my shelf for three years now (I think) that I haven’t read yet. The issue is that you are a pastor/shepherd, and your sheep most certainly ARE paying attention to MacArthur, and probably Keller or Piper as well, simply because their ministries are offering free resources to them. I know for a fact that there are people in the church that I attend that are still on Charles Stanley’s newsletter . So it would be wise, I think, for you to read at least one or two of his books to get a feel for the man and his style. I’ll be happy to recommend a book or two if you’re interested. I’d probably recommend Ashamed of the Gospel first, because that is probably his best known book short of the commentaries and Study Bible.

You wrote:

The issue (as I see it) is that Piper seems to define prophesy differently from both Mac and Don. If Piper doesn’t define the gift of prophesy (which is what Don is talking about) the way that Don does, then we need to understand that and realize that Don’s criticism (of Mac’s relationship with Piper) may be…not correct (for lack of a better term) because he is the one misunderstanding Piper’s position. That means there is a HUGE weakness in Don’s open letter / call for whatever it is that Don’s calling for, which I still don’t understand. Is Don calling for clarification? Repentance? Naming Piper from the pulpit as a threat?

Fair enough. I do plan to grab Strange Fire soon. As far as Piper and MacArthur’s writings, I have a preaching book by Piper I plan to read soon. In my church, the craze seems to be over (1) Islam and (2) prophesy books; e.g. John Hagee’s blood moon fetish. I have thought about reading Hagee’s book to know where folks are coming from, but I can’t bring myself to do it yet. The first few pages read like a supermarket tabloid with marginally better prose. As a counter, I could recommend Walvoord’s Revelation commentary, but it isn’t as exciting as Hagee … :(