Albert Mohler: "We should not be surprised that the secular world confuses sinners and sociopaths, prison and hell"

[G. N. Barkman]

I see no contradiction between the 9 Marks quotations and Aaron Blumer’s comments. Blumer, I believe, is speaking generally, whereas 9 Marks applies only to local church membership. We have a responsibility to put out of our local church those whose public pronouncements and actions continue to defy basic Christian morality and doctrine. We have no similar responsibility to those who are not members of our church.

What about this part?

its ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom.

Does that imply church membership? I see “kingdom,” not church.

[Julie Anne]

I’m curious - I mentioned the sequence of events regarding Mohler’s statement of support for CJ Mahaney. Do any of you see any problems with the way this statement has been yanked offline, comments discarded, document altered - all without an explanation? Is that behavior you expect from a president of a popular theological seminary or a Christian leader, or for a Christian for that matter? Doesn’t scripture point out a higher level of integrity for those in leadership positions? Why does he get to behave like this publicly without any accountability from fellow church leaders?

I am a stay-at-home mom with no degree and when I alter a blog post, I issue an update note at the bottom of my post. I’ve never taken any journalism classes. It just seems like common courtesy and integrity to me.

Julie Anne, I find it to be highly irregular. To my knowledge, your understanding of blogging etiquette is correct.

I don’t know enough about the details to do anything but conjecture. I don’t believe it is sinful to remove the post; and I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it demonstrates a lack of integrity. I would at least say it was unwise and that I would have preferred a different course of action. If there were any details to work from I could offer a stronger statement either way.

[G. N. Barkman]

I see no contradiction between the 9 Marks quotations and Aaron Blumer’s comments. Blumer, I believe, is speaking generally, whereas 9 Marks applies only to local church membership. We have a responsibility to put out of our local church those whose public pronouncements and actions continue to defy basic Christian morality and doctrine. We have no similar responsibility to those who are not members of our church.

Would the statement make more sense if it said, “The exercise of citizenship privileges in Christ’s Kingdom”, (ie. church membership)? Whereas I can’t speak for the author, I suspect that’s what he means.

Well, concerning C.S. Lewis…

I am familiar with his fictional works. I have read the Narnia books, as well as the Space Trilogy books.

In my opinion, the Narnia books are no different than say the books of J.K. Rowling in the Harry Potter books. Sure, they may be well written and entertaining to some people. But the claim that has been made by the mainstream Christian media, that these books are somehow spiritually edifying, and that they even contain within them the message of the Gospel, borders on Heresy. I bet if you guys didn’t know anything about C.S. Lewis or had never heard about the Narnia books, and someone gave them to you to read, you probably would have given them a quick read and then tossed them in the trash. Same with the J.R.R. Tolkien’s books. You might have enjoyed reading them as what they are, well written fantasy/adventure stories, but to make the claim that they are an analogy for the message of the Gospel… why that’s just ridiculous.

But then again, nothing surprises me anymore. As I hear now that there are actually so called Christian books out there about finding the message of the Gospel in the Harry Potter books too. That’s how far Christianity has fallen in this country.

C.S. Lewis’s books contain dangerous ideas. One of the most dangerous, and the most subtle, is that there was a time when practicing magic was not really evil, a time when magic was neutral. There was even good kind of magic. One could be a servant of God and practice this good type of magic. (Read That Hideous Strength. The character of Merlin, who helps Ransom against the bad guys, is described in this way.)

Lewis had a way of seducing the reader. Like in the Narnia books, one begins by crossing into a different world, a world where magic and fairies and talking animals and witches exist. At first there is a clear distinction between the two worlds. One must enter the world through a doorway. And one exits that world in the same way. But as the stories progress, that distinction/separation is blurred. Where, once you’ve reached the end of the story, you are shown that the two worlds are really not two distinct worlds, but the same one- albeit with a different name for God. And the characters and ideas that we describe in our times as pagan, are really just different representations of things such as angels and demons and whatnot.

Mod note: To christian cerna

I haven’t a clue how CS Lewis fits into this thread.

Thanks

Sorry, Jim. I thought we were talking about false teachers.

[christian cerna]

Sorry, Jim. I thought we were talking about false teachers.

Would you be kind enough to do this? Please start a new thread on CS Lewis and let’s discuss it over there.

Thanks

Hi Todd: I told you earlier I’d try to ask around and get answers to your comment. I forwarded your comment to Brent Detwiler who knows the inner-working of SGM very well as he was one of the original Pastors. He gave me permission to post his response here. His responses follow each point of your original comment, bolded and including the 3 links towards the bottom. ~Julie Anne

* * * * * * *

1) The nature of Mahaney’s attendance at CHBC and what discussion Dever had with him about it. The 9Marks comments deal specifically with church membership, not church attendance.

Fact: C.J. was received at CHBC as though an incarnation of Charles Spurgeon. He was publicly commended and defended as a godly example. He also preached at CHBC during his time there.

2) Whether Mahaney’s church recommended that he attend elsewhere during the crisis. This is a demonstration of how biblical eldership should occur. The elders of the church challenged Mahaney on the issues and forced him to take a leave of absence. It is possible/likely that they requested that he take time away from the congregation. In this event, Mahaney would have resolved the issue to the satisfaction of the congregation and he would be eligible for church membership elsewhere.

Fact: The CLC elders did not “force him to take a leave of absence” and they did not request “he take time away from the congregation.” That felt it was best for C.J. to stay at CLC during his leave of absence. C.J. never asked for their counsel in the matter. He finalized his decision to leave without ever talking to them. The 2,500 adult members at CLC were horrified by his hypocrisy.

3) Whether Dever did refer Mahaney back to his own church. However, there is no indication that Mahaney’s sought to join Dever’s church. Mahaney visited the church of one of his good friends for a period of time. To my knowledge, Mahaney was not running away from issues at Covenant Life in opposition to the consensus of the elders and congregation. 9Marks does not advocate sending away visitors; it does tell churches to value membership and not allow people to just run away from unresolved issues. This is in regards to whether Dever was being hypocritical.

Fact: It is irrelevant whether C.J. joined CHBC. He claimed Dever would be his pastor/counselor during the leave of absence. C.J. was running away from a long list of offenses against him. The church and the pastors asked him to return to answer questions about the charges I was bringing. They also had their own charges. He refused and has never returned to ask forgiveness for his blatant hypocrisy. As a result, thousands of people were disillusioned by his example. CLC left SGM over the abusive leadership culture model by C.J.

4) Whether Dever and or Mohler have personally challenged Mahaney over the issues at SGM. It does seem very likely that they encouraged Mahaney to withdraw from the upcoming T4G. http://t4g.org/cj-mahaney/ Because they have been friends for years, I would expect them to have some faith in him. All of us have friends that have been accused of wrongdoing and we have hoped and believed the best of them. That does not mean that Mahaney is innocent, but I can understand their loyalty.

Fact: I have no knowledge of Dever or Mohler ever challenging C.J. for the issues of lying, deceit, lording, and hypocrisy. They have only defended him. Furthermore, Dever and Mohler “loyalty” is grounded in their ignorance. The evidence against C.J. is overwhelming. They have no excuse for endorsing him. That is not loyal, that is enabling. It is a partial judgment contrary to the testimony of hundreds. They have treated him with favoritism

In regards to the church membership issue, I think Dever has been consistent with the policies that he recommends. At the very least I think there is room for interpretation of the events to be in accordance with the policies.

See “C.J.’s Flight from Covenant Life Church”

As to the lawsuit:

Obviously you are familiar with the joint statement released by Mohler, Dever, and Duncan. I can pretty fairly ascertain your view of it.

http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/05/23/mohler-dever-and-duncan-is…

See “C.J. Mahaney Withdraws from T4G & Founders Remove Statement of Support”

I do refer you to Tim Challies’ blog. I think he clearly expresses my thoughts and prayers in this matter.

http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-an…

See “Tim Challies on Thinking Biblically about C.J. Mahaney & SGM”

Julie, honestly, it is difficult to take some of the things being said against Mahaney seriously when statements are made such as:

Fact: C.J. was received at CHBC as though an incarnation of Charles Spurgeon.

Fact:…The 2,500 adult members at CLC were horrified by his hypocrisy.

9 Marks literature(eclesiology) is influenced heavily by Federal Vision theology. I think that is what Julie is concerned about most. And it is a valid point to make.

Christian:

I’ve never heard that before - about Federal Vision influencing Dever’s ministry. Do you have documentation for that? I’m curious, not hostile, honest! Appreciate it

It is not possible for 9 Marks to be influenced by Federal Vision theology. FV is a Reformed doctrine of culture and sacraments that verges on Lutheranism, and is thus opposed to everything a very self-consciously Baptist pastor like Mark Dever (and organization like 9 Marks) stands for. Seriously, FV is a boogeyman. There are like 12 people in the world who actually believe in it.

[christian cerna]

9 Marks literature(eclesiology) is influenced heavily by Federal Vision theology. I think that is what Julie is concerned about most. And it is a valid point to make.

An egregious example of … dropping an “idea bomb” (and a ridiculous, unsubstantiated unwarranted assertion) that has nothig to do with the thread.

If “9 Marks literature(eclesiology) is influenced heavily by Federal Vision theology” is a a ridiculous, unsubstantiated unwarranted assertion, (and by the way is spelled ecclesiology!) …. no matter what Julie is concerned about … AND it is not a valid point!

Like the picture, Jim! I share the opinion, and am very anxious to see Christian produce evidence to substantiate his claim. Very … strange.