Justice, Wrath, and Propitiation
If this is indeed your view, I agree with those who say it is a serious error. But from our previous interactions I’m sure that does not surprise you. :)
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Don Sailer]No, as many theologians have argued, because Christ as God is an eternal being, His sacrifice was sufficient to satisfy the eternal punishment our sin requires.If someone would object to that, I would ask, Then why does God require eternal punishment for temporal sins committed by mortal, created beings? Because those were committed against an eternal God. The punishment must fit the crime and the worth of the offended party.[Ron Bean]Wayne, this is a great statement:
I believe this profound narrative is intended to drive me to conclude the Lord Jesus is experiencing what I deserve as a sinner – to be forsaken by God
As my Substitute, Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner.
Are you serious? Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner? Are you kidding? I deserve eternal conscious punishment. If Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner he would have to suffer eternal conscious punishment in my place!
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Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Wayne Wilson]How do you know that Jesus felt forsaken when he quoted Psalm 22:1?
Jesus also stated, “I am thirsty” (John 19:28), and according to Scripture he did so “knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” Apparently, Jesus said “I thirst,” not because he was thirsty but to fulfill Scripture. And yet we aren’t supposed to believe that Jesus quoted from Psalm 22:1 for the same reason? To point out that Scripture (Psalm 22) is being fulfilled?
I think I will stick with Scripture.
Now, Don, you’re just being silly. Jesus wasn’t thirsty either? So the prophecy wasn’t given because he would actually be thirsty, but so He could say “I thirst”? What about Psalm 22:15?
Do you believe His crucifixion hurt? Do you believe He was truly human?
As for the matter of Jesus feeling forsaken, I believe Jesus felt forsaken based on the question He asked. Remember the question? “Why have You forsaken Me?” The question suggests that He noticed in some significant way that He was forsaken. It is indeed much like His thirst. He said “I thirst” because He was very, very thirsty (a result of being crucified) and it fulfilled prophecy. He asked about being forsaken because He felt forsaken, and it points to Psalm 22.
After Jesus said, “I thirst,” and Jesus received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” He died almost immediately after making the “I thirst” statement. But of course Jesus needed that last drink before he died seconds later. The text tells us why Jesus said, “I thirst.” If that isn’t good enough for you, nothing I state will convince you.
Mark 15:36 reveals that a man offered a sponge with wine vinegar on a stick to Jesus. Did Jesus drink it? The text doesn’t say. But verse 27 states that Jesus breathed his last and died. Matthew 27:48-50 makes the same claim.
What does it mean? I don’t know. But the emphasis is on Jesus making the statement to fulfill Scripture.
[christian cerna]Don, I think I have the here the pebble that will break your house of glass. Read the following:
Mark 15:33-41
And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”
Don, if Jesus was only quoting Psalm 22 in order for the Pharisees to hear him, he didn’t do a very good job. In fact, he failed. The people that heard him thought he was calling for the prophet Elijah.
That would be because many of the people there did not know Aramaic, especially the “bystanders.” And Eloi sounds like Elijah. But I can assure you that the Pharisees understood what Jesus said.
[Greg Long] If I am reading you correctly, Don (and please correct me if I am wrong), it seems to come down to the fact that you believe our sins were covered by Christ on the cross, but not paid for. So God decides to ignore them because they are covered, or swept under the rug as it were. If this is indeed your view, I agree with those who say it is a serious error. But from our previous interactions I’m sure that does not surprise you. :)
The atoning sacrifice of Jesus by his blood covered our sins, expiated them. The sins are dealt with. Our sins are condemned by Jesus on the cross. But the application of what Christ did on the cross takes place when he intercedes for those who believe.
God doesn’t ignore them. The sins are actually condemned by Christ when he dies on the cross. Now by the blood of Jesus he no longer counts our sins against us. They have been taken away. Believe and Christ intercedes. But see what happens if you don’t believe. Read Hebrews and you will see. :)
[Greg Long][Don Sailer]No, as many theologians have argued, because Christ as God is an eternal being, His sacrifice was sufficient to satisfy the eternal punishment our sin requires. If someone would object to that, I would ask, Then why does God require eternal punishment for temporal sins committed by mortal, created beings? Because those were committed against an eternal God. The punishment must fit the crime and the worth of the offended party.[Ron Bean]Wayne, this is a great statement:
I believe this profound narrative is intended to drive me to conclude the Lord Jesus is experiencing what I deserve as a sinner – to be forsaken by God
As my Substitute, Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner.
Are you serious? Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner? Are you kidding? I deserve eternal conscious punishment. If Jesus suffered everything that I deserved as a sinner he would have to suffer eternal conscious punishment in my place!
More theology! :) Hey, that’s not my position. I don’t have to defend it or figure it out. I just need to stick with Scripture.
Therefore, I’m enjoying God’s Word. Jesus died for me as an atoning sacrifice that takes my sins away. I praise the Lord for that. He rescued me from my prison of death and sin. He is the victorious Christ.
[Don Sailer][christian cerna]Don, I think I have the here the pebble that will break your house of glass. Read the following:
Mark 15:33-41
And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”
Don, if Jesus was only quoting Psalm 22 in order for the Pharisees to hear him, he didn’t do a very good job. In fact, he failed. The people that heard him thought he was calling for the prophet Elijah.
That would be because many of the people there did not know Aramaic, especially the “bystanders.” And Eloi sounds like Elijah. But I can assure you that the Pharisees understood what Jesus said.
You can assure me? How is that? Did you keep in touch with the Pharisees after the crucifixion? It’s funny how you seem to hold us to a different standard than the one you use for your own comments. You won’t accept anything we say unless we provide you a specific verse to back it up. Yet, you are free to speculate and make claims without the least bit of proof.
[Don Sailer][Wayne Wilson]How do you know that Jesus felt forsaken when he quoted Psalm 22:1?
Jesus also stated, “I am thirsty” (John 19:28), and according to Scripture he did so “knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” Apparently, Jesus said “I thirst,” not because he was thirsty but to fulfill Scripture. And yet we aren’t supposed to believe that Jesus quoted from Psalm 22:1 for the same reason? To point out that Scripture (Psalm 22) is being fulfilled?
I think I will stick with Scripture.
Now, Don, you’re just being silly. Jesus wasn’t thirsty either? So the prophecy wasn’t given because he would actually be thirsty, but so He could say “I thirst”? What about Psalm 22:15?
Do you believe His crucifixion hurt? Do you believe He was truly human?
As for the matter of Jesus feeling forsaken, I believe Jesus felt forsaken based on the question He asked. Remember the question? “Why have You forsaken Me?” The question suggests that He noticed in some significant way that He was forsaken. It is indeed much like His thirst. He said “I thirst” because He was very, very thirsty (a result of being crucified) and it fulfilled prophecy. He asked about being forsaken because He felt forsaken, and it points to Psalm 22.
After Jesus said, “I thirst,” and Jesus received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” He died almost immediately after making the “I thirst” statement. But of course Jesus needed that last drink before he died seconds later. The text tells us why Jesus said, “I thirst.” If that isn’t good enough for you, nothing I state will convince you.
Mark 15:36 reveals that a man offered a sponge with wine vinegar on a stick to Jesus. Did Jesus drink it? The text doesn’t say. But verse 27 states that Jesus breathed his last and died. Matthew 27:48-50 makes the same claim.
What does it mean? I don’t know. But the emphasis is on Jesus making the statement to fulfill Scripture.
Actually, the scriptures do say whether or not Jesus drank the wine.
After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
(John 19:28-30)
Jesus did drink the wine. So he must have been thirsty.
Jesus did drink the wine. So he must have been thirsty.
Yes, and He must have been forsaken, since He asked why He was. Simple, really.
[christian cerna][Don Sailer][christian cerna]Don, I think I have the here the pebble that will break your house of glass. Read the following:
Mark 15:33-41
And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “Behold, he is calling Elijah.” And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, “Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.” And Jesus uttered a loud cry and breathed his last. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”
Don, if Jesus was only quoting Psalm 22 in order for the Pharisees to hear him, he didn’t do a very good job. In fact, he failed. The people that heard him thought he was calling for the prophet Elijah.
That would be because many of the people there did not know Aramaic, especially the “bystanders.” And Eloi sounds like Elijah. But I can assure you that the Pharisees understood what Jesus said.
You can assure me? How is that? Did you keep in touch with the Pharisees after the crucifixion? It’s funny how you seem to hold us to a different standard than the one you use for your own comments. You won’t accept anything we say unless we provide you a specific verse to back it up. Yet, you are free to speculate and make claims without the least bit of proof.
The Pharisees spoke Aramaic and Hebrew. :) I’m laughing because I knew you would respond this way. It’s very funny.
Blessings!
[christian cerna][Don Sailer][Wayne Wilson]How do you know that Jesus felt forsaken when he quoted Psalm 22:1?
Jesus also stated, “I am thirsty” (John 19:28), and according to Scripture he did so “knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” Apparently, Jesus said “I thirst,” not because he was thirsty but to fulfill Scripture. And yet we aren’t supposed to believe that Jesus quoted from Psalm 22:1 for the same reason? To point out that Scripture (Psalm 22) is being fulfilled?
I think I will stick with Scripture.
Now, Don, you’re just being silly. Jesus wasn’t thirsty either? So the prophecy wasn’t given because he would actually be thirsty, but so He could say “I thirst”? What about Psalm 22:15?
Do you believe His crucifixion hurt? Do you believe He was truly human?
As for the matter of Jesus feeling forsaken, I believe Jesus felt forsaken based on the question He asked. Remember the question? “Why have You forsaken Me?” The question suggests that He noticed in some significant way that He was forsaken. It is indeed much like His thirst. He said “I thirst” because He was very, very thirsty (a result of being crucified) and it fulfilled prophecy. He asked about being forsaken because He felt forsaken, and it points to Psalm 22.
After Jesus said, “I thirst,” and Jesus received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” He died almost immediately after making the “I thirst” statement. But of course Jesus needed that last drink before he died seconds later. The text tells us why Jesus said, “I thirst.” If that isn’t good enough for you, nothing I state will convince you.
Mark 15:36 reveals that a man offered a sponge with wine vinegar on a stick to Jesus. Did Jesus drink it? The text doesn’t say. But verse 27 states that Jesus breathed his last and died. Matthew 27:48-50 makes the same claim.
What does it mean? I don’t know. But the emphasis is on Jesus making the statement to fulfill Scripture.
Actually, the scriptures do say whether or not Jesus drank the wine.
After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
(John 19:28-30)
Jesus did drink the wine. So he must have been thirsty.
It states that he received the wine. I don’t know if this means it touched his lips or he bit into the sponge and squeezed the sponge with his mouth. How much of this wine vinegar do you think the very thirsty Jesus drank seconds before dying?
So are you saying that Jesus was not thirsty? Was he lying when he said he was thirsty? I don’t understand your position, Don. It is a precarious one, that’s for sure. It almost sounds as if you are saying Jesus spoke words that were not true.
Don, you keep going back to Psalm 22. And I understand why. The only way your argument holds up, is if Jesus didn’t mean the words he spoke about being forsaken, or about being thirsty. For if Jesus really did feel forsaken, it would beg the question of why he felt forsaken. And then your argument falls apart, because according to you, Jesus did not experience the punishment for our sins nor the anguish of feeling forsaken.
Don, speaking of Psalm 22, do you really understand why those first words were transliterated? It was not done for the Pharisees and religious leaders who were watching the the crucifixion. It’s not like Jesus was speaking one language, and then switched to Aramaic. It was done for the reader. Transliteration is a writing technique.
Aramaic was one of the languages spoken by Jesus and his disciples and many of those Jews of his region. So Jesus crying out “Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani” is no surprise. But there were probably many there who heard these words, who did not speak Aramaic, and who mistakenly thought he was calling for Elijah, because they sound similar. However, in order that the reader of the Gospel account, who was reading it in Greek, might get an understanding of this mistake, the Gospel writer had to transliterate the words, in order to show the reader how some people could confuse eli with elijah.
Can you imagine if the Gospel writer had used patēr instead of eli? Then that part of the account would not have made any sense. The reader would have thought, how could they confuse pater with elijah???
But thanks to the gospel writer’s good story telling skills, he transliterated the words for us, so that any of us reading the gospels, without even knowing Aramaic or Hebrew or Greek, can say “ahh… i get it… they were confusing eli eli with Elijah’s name because they have similar sounds”.
Article titled What Makes a Full Atonement Full? posted on Sep. 26, 2013.
Last month when the Presbyterian Committee on Congregational Songs for the Presbyterian Church (USA) voted to exclude “In Christ Alone” from its new hymnal, the chairwoman of the committee said the popular hymn mistakenly expressed “the view that the cross is primarily about God’s need to assuage God’s anger.”Her comment reveals both a discomfort that many contemporary Christians have with God’s wrath and also an overly simplistic dismissal of penal substitution. We who believe the Son bore the Father’s wrath don’t narrowly think that assuaging this wrath is what the cross is “primarily” about. What happened on the cross is a bit more complicated.
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Mike Wittmer over at the Gospel Coalition omits the Governmental View of Atonement. It is not the same as the Moral Influence Theory. In spite of its serious flaws (such as the elimination of actual payment for sin), the Governmental view does bring to our attention the fact that God FEELS a certain way about sin. In the theory of Moral Government, especially as developed by Nathaniel Taylor, the Moral Governor would forfeit his authority were he to fail to manifest his feelings toward the violation of his law. Enter Atonement: The supreme manifestation of these feelings is the cosmic contradiction of the Cross.
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