John Piper to move to Knoxville area while he works on his writing

John Piper will still be warning sinners, just not as Bethlehem Baptist pastor

During Piper’s tenure, Bethlehem grew from a one-campus congregation of nearly 300 members to a church with three Twin Cities locations, a seminary and close to 5,000 attendees.

All-Church Annual Meeting

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Joel Tetreau's picture

What I will say is that I have been grateful for John's impact both within evangelical and fundamentalist individuals and ministries. I pray for God's rich grace on our brother's new context of ministry. I pray that all of us here who are faithfully serving within the context of local church ministry will be as faithful as John has been over the decades.

Straight Ahead and Blessed New Year!

jt

ps - Hey friends, let's give the mod's time to deal with certain individuals. I was a Mod sometime ago here at SI. It's a daunting task. Just zip them a note and know that they will work behind the scene to make sure all is where it needs to be. If you read something that seems "not right" please assume the best from the leadership here at SI - they are sharp people taking one step at a time. Also....let's try to use restraint when interacting with someone who has stepped out of bounds. Usually a private message is a good starting place. Then I'd go to the mod's. I would only call a brother or sister out in public if you've already done step one and two......but that's just me and I haven't always lived by that rule......but I'm trying to live by that rule.

Keep Smiling!

 

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Paul Henebury's picture

Huw, you opine:

Quote:
  I know my trust is true and I know this for certain;

 

A rank Arminian could have said the same thing.

 

So you know you are one of the elect because you know it?  And you know it because your life is enjoyable and you can quote a hymn written by someone who didn't share your views?  

 

Listen.  Whether you care about what I think about your opinion of your elect status is wholly as beside the point as your opinion about John Piper's or anyone else's salvation.  You were asked an important theological question and you have dodged it with a tautology. 

You say further,

Quote:
I know the work was begun and I trust He is able to complete that work.

What if He has no intention of completing the work because you are not elect?

I have asked you twice how you know your "trust" is the real thing which leads to salvation.  I might add here that the "trust" is either self-generated - in which case you are lost (according to you that is), and self-deceived; or, the "trust" comes from God (which you would agree with I think), in which case you still have to answer whether it is enduring faith or the false faith which Calvin and the Puritans often taught about.  Your feelings decide absolutely nothing!  Knowledge does not equate to how we feel about a thing.  Truth is not decided by what comes over us when we are washing the dishes.  So again, how do you know you are one of the elect for whom Christ died?   

Dr. Paul Henebury

I am Founder of Telos Ministries, and Senior Pastor at Agape Bible Church in N. Ca.

Chip Van Emmerik's picture

Huw wrote:

I know who FRED is, but you mentioned someone called Chuck. Try reading what you posted and then you might understand what I posted.

 

''because I find it incomprehensible that you could exalt Chuck Phelps'' your words post 3.

 

PS This topic is not on Phelps so lets drop it here.

You are absolutely correct; I got my Phelps mixed up. Sorry about the confusion. However, my question still remains. I don't understand how you can express support for Fred Phelps while expressing disapproval of Piper.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Huw's picture

If I gave the impression of supporting the man then I apologize. What I meant was some of the things he says or teaches cannot be denied or dismissed.

 

As I said this thread is not about Fred Phelps so why do you persist?

Huw's picture

You blog as Dr Reluctant and in view of your refusal to believe me I think the Eternal has given you the correct tag.

 

I wish you well and look forward to meeting you in eternity.

Huw's picture

Here's another opinion.

If as you say that I am deluded and have no grace, nor trust nor life eternal. I can say with a sincere heart that I don't deserve forgiveness. That I have no right to ask for it and if it was stripped from me and given to another it would be my just punishment. I would suffer no disappointment, because I don't deserve it. 

Blessings, H.

Paul Henebury's picture

Huw,

 

Stop putting words into my mouth.  Did I say you were deluded or had no grace?  I said nothing of the sort!  You need to try to keep your opinions and inferences out of theological discourse.  Some folks promote their opinions to the status of Divine disclosure.  What matters is that our beliefs cohere with God's words; that we have a biblical reason for what we espouse.  You think Piper is lost.  He believes salvation is solely by God's grace.  So did Arminius.  So do you.  Why are they lost (I presume Arminius is a lost cause?) and you are saved?  

Dr. Paul Henebury

I am Founder of Telos Ministries, and Senior Pastor at Agape Bible Church in N. Ca.

TylerR's picture

Editor

I have followed this bizarre discussion and honestly tried to understand what you're saying. I am at a loss. I doubt there is any Christian in the world who agrees in every possible respect with somebody else's theology. Regardless, there is pretty general agreement about which theological viewpoints belong under the umbrella of "orthodoxy." Both Arminianism and Reformed theology are orthodox. I see no warrant for claiming Piper is not saved. I see even less warrant for claiming Piper is an Arminian (Post #4). He is very definitely a Calvinist! 

To return to the topic at hand - I have not read one of Piper's works yet. He is certainly a very polarizing figure (as this weird thread has demonstrated!) but he is a Godly man who has used his talents and abilities for the Lord for quite a while. I wish him the best as he slows down to focus on writing. 

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Huw's picture

By questioning my salvation you in fact deny that I have grace and am deluded in my giving the reason for the hope I have.

I have yet to read a single scriptural word in your Divine discourse. 

My trust is in line with the revelation given in the will of The Eternal Father and I have direct access to the benefits promised under the terms of His will.

I know Piper is lost and appears as an angel of light. If you type 'Piper heresy' into any search engine you'll discover there are many who have the same opinion. They did not have an influence on what I know.

He does not believe salvation is by grace alone. He believes there are ''conditions'' that must be met.

In fact your statement that salvation is by grace alone is ridiculous and insufficient. It is BY grace THROUGH trust,  by grace, in and of itself, does not apply salvation. And while we are on the subject it's not our trust and is not found in us. It is the trust of Messiah as exercised on the stake and used on our behalf before being applied to us directly. Once this has occurred and we are justified in the court of heaven the Holy Spirit applies or supplies trust to us.

When I awoke this morning my first thought as often is, ' Thou art with me'. In answer to your question yesterday as to how I know I'm saved, I hate sin and love justness which is the direct opposite to how I was. If a man hates sin he is in direct opposition to Satan and that is scriptural proof. 

A lot of men love the doctrines of Calvin, but their carnal hearts and minds cannot accept the fact that all that comes to pass was predetermined. That man is a worm. And this is what riles the carnal thinking, that not only did the Eternal and Almighty predetermine and elect according to grace, He also predetermined a people unto damnation according to justice and vengeful wrath and that the members of a mans household could well be in the number of the latter.

There was a guy on the BBC website who is a militant atheist. He used to be a preaching, evangelizing, tract giving, Bible bashing, enthusiastic Calvinist. The problem occurred for him was the fact his wife was not producing the same enthusiasm and so he walked away from his profession. He now has a website for people who have walked away from Christianity. He was able to profess the doctrines of sovereign grace, but unable to submit to them and proclaim, Just art thou, ''O Yah Veh and straight are thy judgments''. There comes an evil day when what a man has built is tested and believe you me I have had my evil day.

 

Paul, I know that some people think that salvation comes about by evolution over a long period of time, but scripture teaches of a new creation. Just as we trust the first creation was immediate, we also understand that the new creation is immediate. So can you please tell me on what day you were brought from darkness into light, when you passed from death to life. The day that all things became new and everything before your natural eyes was different. That moment when trust first sprang up in your will and you began a conversation with the Eternal Almighty. Where were you when this happened?  

 

 

Huw's picture

I have followed this bizarre discussion and honestly tried to understand what you're saying. I am at a loss.

The scriptures teach us that, 'the soulical human receiveth not those of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually judged''. Do you understand this?

 

PS please don't be offended by my question Tyler. 

Huw's picture

‘’There is a real condition that has to be met for justification - namely faith in Jesus Christ’’.  (Pipers words as posted in post 2.)

He has failed to understand that the trust applied for our justification is the trust ‘’of’’ Messiah. This trust, in the Father, was exercised and seen at Calvary. Selah
This same trust is brought to the bench of justice in the court of heaven and provides proof that the sinner has been justified by the death, blood and resurrection of the Messiah. The proof is accepted, the sinner is justified and the sinner receives the benefits accorded to him in the will and testament of the testator. Selah

Once trust is supplied to the sinner. Confession in the mouth and trust in the heart become a reality that can never be denied. Romans 10:9 is not a condition for salvation it is the effect of justification and in exercise of trust gives us the promise. 

''Trust in'' and ''trust of'' are obviously different and are well worth a study. For instance is ‘’trust in’’ directional or positional in the sense I am in Messiah and therefore I trust as being in Him as he is in me.
Trust of is possessive and has an effect as to whom the trust belongs to and what praise He deserves in using that trust for our justification and what glory there is for Him in supplying that trust to a wretch like me.

Anyone using an NIV will have difficulty in checking what I have said is according to scripture. I wondered why you people didn’t recognize what I was saying. The reference for ‘trust in/of’’ ( or faith of/in) can be found in Galatians 2:16 KJV please compare with NIV.

There should be nothing in what I have said that gives a glimmer of glory to man.

Huw's picture

‘’And there are real conditions that have to be met for damnation, namely, hardness and unbelief. (First line of the statement of Piper in post 2.)’’

 

This is as disgusting a line of carnal reasoning I have ever read. In it Piper denies the sovereignty of the Almighty in reprobation. The effects of reprobation are a hard heart and lack of trust, but those are the effects of reprobation, not the cause as Piper says.

The reprobate are ‘’atheist’’ which means they are ‘without Theos’’ without God or without Elohim.
Being ‘without’ they have the same hard hearts they were born with ( Ezekiel) and lack trust because trust is the inheritance of the just by which we live ( Habuk, Rmns, Heb)

''Atheist'' is used in scripture once and by Paul. You'll find it in Ephesians. 

 

 

 

 

Chip Van Emmerik's picture

Huw wrote:
Once trust is supplied to the sinner.
How is your "trust supplied to the sinner", on what basis or by what process? There must be some means by which certain people have your "trust supplied to them", or else you are left with a universalist position in which everyone is "supplied trust" and saved.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Huw's picture

Nobody is born with trust. Therefore it is necessary to receive it or be supplied with trust. That is the office of the Holy Spirit that is why it is written; ''through trust; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:''  A gift is both supplied ( by the Almighty) and received ( by the recipient). I would strongly suggest that you do a study on ''gift'' especially as numbered by Strong's as 5486. The word translated as gift is better transliterated and as 'charisma' which means spiritual enduement.

The Holy Spirit taking up residence in the justified sinner becomes our supplier of power, the supplier of all our needs, the sanctifier of our hearts.

 

Chip, where you would use the word faith, I use trust. 

 

edit: added justified to sinner.

Chip Van Emmerik's picture

Huw wrote:
Nobody is born with trust. Therefore it is necessary to receive it or be supplied with trust.
I completely agree with this statement. My question is how do you understand the sinner to receive or be supplied with trust/faith. Apart from a universalist position, there are some who are supplied with trust and some who are not. On what basis or by what means are some supplied with trust while others are not?

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Huw's picture

On what basis or by what means are some supplied with trust while others are not?

 

Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians explains that it is by the predetermination of the Father. That the Father has selected those that would be called sons or as some translations have it, to adoption. Those that received Messiah, to them is given power to become the sons of God ( Elohim) and which are born, not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of Elohim. (John)

 

In short the recipients are the heirs, the elect according to the good pleasure of the will of the Almighty.

In a study of the word judgment I became aware that judgment is the passing of a sentence. It can either be to damnation or salvation. With this knowledge the verse in Romans becomes illuminated. '' O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his ''judgments'', and his ways past finding out''.

We know that the Eternal chooses, but the why is unsearchable. 

 

I know that the Eternal searches the depths of our hearts and that our thoughts are known to Him before they enter our heads and so He knows the sincerity of all that we think, say and do. With that in mind I have something to say that I hope does not embarrass you Chip. My hope and prayer is that one day we shall meet and when we do it will be with tears of joy and love in the Holy Spirit.

 

Blessings, H.

 

Huw's picture

I sincerely hope that your outrage turns to curiosity and that you do some research into this matter. You owe yourself that much, because he is not an angel of light.

The subject is vitally important, the subject is a matter of life or death, because blind guides lead those that follow them into the pit. The easiest and most simple way of detecting blind guide is this. Do they glorify mankind in their doctrine, do they insist on conditions for salvation?  or is mankind totally excluded to the glory, honor and praise of the Eternal Father, the Eternal Son and the blessed Spirit of Grace. 

 

 

Chip Van Emmerik's picture

Huw wrote:
Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians explains that it is by the predetermination of the Father. That the Father has selected those that would be called sons or as some translations have it, to adoption. Those that received Messiah, to them is given power to become the sons of God ( Elohim) and which are born, not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of Elohim. (John)

Do you believe this predetermination to adoption is irresistable? In other words, can the elect refuse their election?

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Huw's picture

We are aware that Messiah died for a chosen people. The names of who can be found in the Lambs Book of Life. The people are presented to the Eternal Son by the Father. There is a condition here. The people have been sold as slaves to sin and must be bought back. A price must be paid. The Son pays the price by becoming the propitiation for the sins of the promised people.

 That the Son would become flesh and in that flesh would become sin so that the Father could and would punish sin in Him.

 

Therefore there is a promise and that promise was made by the Father to the Son. This means the Eternal Father must keep His promise to His Son. This in turn means He will keep His promise and exert His power to perform His perfect will in that promise.

 

If a man were able to resist his calling and election it would mean the will of man is greater than the will of the Eternal Father. And that the Eternal Father could not keep the promise He made to His Son. (I despise the thought).

 

Psalm 2:8, Rmns 7:14, 6:20. John 8:34, 2 Corinthians 5:20, Rev 21:27, 1 Peter 2:9, Rms 9:19.

 

The references are not in order, because I wrote the post and then went looking for references. I don't normally include references as I expect people to recognize Scripture when they read or hear it. But, there is a danger that those that read my post are not using the same translations.

Those that are called to the service in Messiah will never be able to walk away. Jeremiah was so fed up of his mission to the people that wished he was a motel keeper! 

I say this with utter shame, but as a babe in Messiah I acted as a babe. Complete with screams, hungers and everything else a babe does. As an infant I acted as an infant ( to much shame to admit). I have turned my back, with a promise never again to speak of His mercy, grace and truth. To no avail I'm glad to say. Eternal life means just that.

 

Blessings, H.

 

Larry's picture

Moderator

Anyone using an NIV will have difficulty in checking what I have said is according to scripture. I wondered why you people didn’t recognize what I was saying. 

I think we have recognized what you are saying here. We just reject it as being incompatible with what God says in his word.

I think you are confusing the conditions for election (unconditional) with the conditions for justification and salvation (which the Bible plainly declares to be faith in Christ). Your comments about "trust in/trust of" are a legitimate point of discussion, but it is not determinative as you suggest; the answer to the question is contextual. It is not disputed that Christ was faithful to God, and that his faithfulness is necessary for salvation. It should not be disputed that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. Salvation is given to those who believe. It is not given to those who do not believe. To say such is to say what Christ himself said, and we should not complain about repeating Christ's words. It does not glorify man at all to acknowledge that man can do nothing. He can only trust what someone else did for him.

Your position on reprobation creates an unjust God who condemns people without cause. God does not condemn people who aren't sinners. In Scripture, the cause of condemnation is unbelief.

You have abandoned the church and misused Scripture ("come out from among them") to justify it. It may be true that "that there was something different going on in me, than was going on in them," but that's not necessarily a good thing. That could be a warning to you. One of the biblical roles of a church is accountability both in life and doctrine. In other words, a church serves to keep from believing wrongly and from living wrongly. When we abandon that, we abandon one of the means that God the Spirit uses to sustain and grow us. Based on what you are saying here, it seems that you believe wrongly, failing to take all the Scriptures into account.

You are, in essence, a hyper-Calvinist in the mold of Harold Camping in some respects.

In another strange twist, you say, "But, there is a danger that those that read my post are not using the same translations." I am not even sure which translation you are using since you wrote, "'the soulical human receiveth not those of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually judged." It seems like you pick and choose a bit.

You are taking the historical positions of orthodoxy and calling them disgusting, carnal, man glorifying, etc. That does not seem to be a wise thing to do. I would urge some caution and some interaction with those who are well-versed in these things. Separating yourself from such input leads to bad things.

Huw's picture

In which case we shall agree to differ and may the Eternal Almighty judge us.

James K's picture

Huw, 2 things:

1. I would never use an NIV, so that is not the basis for not agreeing with you.

2. What you are promoting seems to be eternal justification along the lines of what primitive baptists hold to.

So I ask you this question:

Are there people who die in unbelief (athiests, muslims, buddhists, hindu, etc) but will open their eyes in glory because of the faith of Jesus?

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Huw's picture

Are there people who die in unbelief (athiests, muslims, buddhists, hindu, Baptists , methodits, roman catholics, mormons, JW's sects, cults and apostate denominations etc) but will open their eyes in glory because of the faith of Jesus?

 

Absolutely, 100%, definitely zero oppurtunity....NO.

 

That you could take what I said and turn it into heresy is beyond my comprehension. 

Shaynus's picture

After reading this thread and many others by Huw, I advise members of this forum to not engage him except to warn him on ground of Titus 3:10, and 1 Timothy 4:7. I'm not a moderator of SI. I'm just speaking as a Christian here. 

Warn him:

1. To begin faithfully attending a faithful local church and put himself under the authority and preaching of the leadership there, per Greg's point.  

2. That he cease twisting words and acting divisively. 

I'm aware that even this comment could be construed to be against the comment policy of SI by some by focusing on personalities rather than the topic at hand, and I'll be happy to remove it if moderators wish or they may do it themselves.

 

Huw's picture

I know you mean well and bless for your misguided comments. My sincere hope and prayer is that ''the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints''. 

 

If ever you feel like questioning my doctrine as have have done with Piper please feel free to do so. Do it in bite size chunks. 

 

Have you ever noticed what this site is called? Why do you think that is?

 

 

 

 

WilliamD's picture

Huw wrote:

Whether you accept that or not is of no consequence to me, but it might have eternal consequences for you. 

 

That is that supposed to mean? If Paul doesn't accept your claim to be a Christian, then he's not saved either? 

Well, if we turn that around on you and say that if you don't accept Piper's claim to be a Christian, then maybe it's because you're not either, no matter what you felt happen to you. 

I do know what John said: 1 John 3:14  4 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

So, if you're calling someone who is most certainly a brother (John Piper) then maybe you're not a brother.

I had a guy in our church for a few years who went around comparing himself to everybody else's devotion to God. He would "anathama" just about everyone who didn't measure up to his judgment.  It was a good day when he left the church. 

WilliamD's picture

Shaynus wrote:

After reading this thread and many others by Huw, I advise members of this forum to not engage him except to warn him on ground of Titus 3:10, and 1 Timothy 4:7. I'm not a moderator of SI. I'm just speaking as a Christian here. 

Warn him:

1. To begin faithfully attending a faithful local church and put himself under the authority and preaching of the leadership there, per Greg's point.  

2. That he cease twisting words and acting divisively. 

I'm aware that even this comment could be construed to be against the comment policy of SI by some by focusing on personalities rather than the topic at hand, and I'll be happy to remove it if moderators wish or they may do it themselves.

 

Thank you, this should be coming from the Moderators....to say that the condition of faith is false doctrine and makes Piper an unbeliever is outrageous and anti-Gospel.

Huw's picture

I'm sure the guy that left you all was either under law and trying to bring everyone else under law or he was a child of the Eternal. If the former is the case then well done for forcing him out. If the latter is the case then order a good supply of mill stones, because if he is harmed in anyway you all have the guilt upon you.

 

If you think for one moment that I make judgments at the drop of a hat and just type whatever comes into my mind then you have no idea of what a life of service means. Do you understand how difficult it is to warn people about false doctrine, false teachers and blind guides. I'll tell you what happens....go read you post. 

 

What is it that ''a condition of faith'' means. Before you tell me I'll tell you for certain. It doesn't appear in the scriptures. 

 

Now if you want to form a doctrine around your ''condition of faith'' you'll be a false teacher. The only reference I can find for this is, ''Loving the prophet (Mohammed) is a condition of faith''. Well done that man!

 

I do have a love of the brethren and when I meet them they feel that love. If anyone questions the honor, glory, praiseworthiness or true worship of the Eternal and attempt to give any part of it to humanity then I will not call that man brother. Here I stand, Elohim help me.

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