Issues with this website and some new ideas

I think the perceptions of clarity and ease of use in forum format and design are highly subjective. I love the SI format, and can’t stand the FotF forums. CARM? Booooorrrring.

I like http://forums.crosswalk.com/ Crosswalk - but I’ve been posting there for at least a decade, and have gotten used to site again every time they upgrade.

I do understand that if you’re accustomed to the styling of the boards you linked to that you’d have some difficulties with the SI format.

Susan, I agree with you. It may be because I have primarily viewed SI over the last year or so regularly, but I do find it very user-friendly, especially with the recent updates. I checked out the other sites mentioned. I thought the 48 days site had some neat features. But one can always find new ways to present information in a better way. I think the team here has done a great job on creating an enjoyable site.

[jwolf6589] Every webmaster and userbase will say their system is the best. If we had this discussion on those websites I mentioned, they would say that this website is lacking in features, and their is the better option. I think you like it better because you are used to it, and do not like change. I have used a wide variety of message boards and tell you that this one is lacking in colors and features. I agree that its faster to load than the CARM form site, but overall I wish there was some improvement. The colors, lack of features, font size, spacing, and a bunch of other things.

Oh and bye the way how can I tell what software a website is using for their forms?

John

As I said, preferences are subjective. People like what they like for reasons of personal taste, and styling should fit the purpose.

I’m not sure who you’re talking to when you say “I think you like it better because you are used to it, and do not like change.” I don’t think you can assume that people don’t like change just because they prefer the SI format- last year we migrated from vbulletin to Drupal, and then last week we did a major site upgrade. Liking or not liking change is not the issue.

You can tweak the font size by going to your browser menu bar, choosing View, and if you are using Firefox, you can Zoom In or Out to increase or decrease the font size. I forget what IE looks like.

Most websites credit the software they are using at the very bottom of the page. Ours says “Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system.”.

What features in particular are on your wish list?

[jwolf6589] Oh and by the way how can I tell what software a website is using for their forms?

John,

SI used to use VBulletin, I think, (the same as Rapture Ready and CARM) but Aaron transitioned out of that and into Drupal; Aaron would know the specifics of why. I used to be involved with another forum that used V-Bulletin, and we kept having to pay for updates/upgrades, so that might have to do something with it. I do know that most Forums that I’ve seen will have the name of the engine or software that drives it in the page footer, like we do.

Just curious - why didn’t you ask about this http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-known-issues-31] in the known issues in 3.1 thread ?

It’s true that vBulletin, SMF (Simple Machines Forum), PHPBB, and lots of other forum packages are available out there and they do tend to have a few bells and whistles we’re lacking here—though not a whole lot.

The reasons we moved away from vBulletin and didn’t chose another “forum software” package…

• SI isn’t just a forum, so we were looking at a way to blend the article content with the forum content
  
  
• Blending them either meant using two content management systems (a standard cms and a forum) that we link with custom applications, etc. or finding a single content system that could provide both.
  
  
• The two-systems linked together proved to be unwieldy and hard to maintain in the past (at least from my POV).
  
  
• Drupal offered the best single-cms set of tradeoffs (Trade-offs were unavoidable. CMS’s are not designed to focus on forum features… forums are not designed to serve up “front page” type content.)
  
  

Drupal continues to evolve toward stronger forum features. It’s a slow process, but it’s only going to get better.

Having said all that, if there are specific features you’re seeing in vBulletin/SMF/PHPBB forums that you would like to see here, tell us about them. There is a good chance we can get them added in the future if there is alot of interest.

But in looking at the sites linked in the OP, we are talking mainly about visual stying. One item I forgot in my “list of reasons” above… I’ve always thought vBulletin forums were pretty ugly out of the box and I spent several months trying to figure out how to beautify ours before going to Drupal. I’ve seen it done, so I know it’s possible, but I do not possess the magic. In general, the vB look is just not appealing to me.

[jwolf6589] Every webmaster and userbase will say their system is the best. If we had this discussion on those websites I mentioned, they would say that this website is lacking in features, and their is the better option. I think you like it better because you are used to it, and do not like change. I have used a wide variety of message boards and tell you that this one is lacking in colors and features. I agree that its faster to load than the CARM form site, but overall I wish there was some improvement. The colors, lack of features, font size, spacing, and a bunch of other things.

Oh and bye the way how can I tell what software a website is using for their forms?

John

Wow. John, may I say that it’s not considered entirely polite for a new poster to criticize the look of a web site with his 8th post and then, when responded to graciously, judge the motives of the site administrators and moderators (“I think you like it better because you are used to it and do not like change”). Obviously you are ignorant of even the most recent history of this site, as others have pointed out.

[jwolf6589] Jay,

Where is this thread you speak about? Would suggestions for improvement and complaints not be posted on this board?

Jay is talking about http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-known-issues-31] the thread addressing issues in the SI 3.1 site upgrade . We (meaning Aaron and his techie elves) are still working through some glitches.

It’s fine if you wish to suggest features you found particularly helpful on another forum. You might want to read through some of the other threads in this folder to get an idea as to what tweaks are in the works and what has already been suggested.

John, I’m encouraged to hear that the speed is working well for you. It’s actually one my concerns. Things are never fast enough for me! I’ve also found that some pages here at SI load much faster on some browsers than on others (especially the Linux version of Chrome… sometimes it seems to take forever to load a page, but the rest of the time is the fastest browser I’ve ever seen. Don’t know what’s up with that).

Anyway, some of the reason for a little bit more speed is a little bit thinner feature set (for example, no WYSIWYG editor in the forums)

By the way, this is not well advertised and I need to get word out better on it, but there are keyboard shortcuts for the formatting here.

shift+alt+b = bold

shift+alt+i = italic

shift+alt+u = underline

There are others also but I don’t use ‘em much and can’t remember. Need to post a list somewhere. I’d like to see less complex hot key combos but there seem to be some issues with browsers there so far.

Note also, these hotkeys do not work if you have javascript blocked in your browser (same for the rest of the format toolbar features. It probably doesn’t even display without javascript)

In Linux you can run Windows, too. Do it every day. But I don’t know if I can virtualize Mac OS. For what it costs, I’m not sure I’d want to but it’s cheaper than buying a Mac, that’s for sure.

If Macs just work, then why did you start this thread?

{/evil grin}

http://www.amitbhawani.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Macbook-Wind…

http://thenextweb.com/apple/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg] This post shows conclusively how Macs are significantly overpriced. That said, if someone gave one to me I’d take it. :-)

I’d take it… then sell it. :D

More seriously, web developers have to focus on what most users are using and then try to accommodate the variations as much as possible from there. SI doesn’t work worth beans in Internet Explorer 6 (it works, but way ugly). Well, at some point one has to ask: is this worth more time to try to remedy?

Fortunately, from what I hear, Safari is a solid browser which means there is very little that has to be tweaked to make it happy. Stuff does not have to be developed specifically for it.

It handles standard CSS just fine… unlike IE, which tries to follow its own rules and tell everyone else what the rules ought to be. (If you think you hear some resentment there…yes, you do. :) )

(FWIW, SI readers are 41% IE, 32% Firefox and 16% Safari… Chrome is at 10% but growing)

[Greg Long] http://thenextweb.com/apple/files/2010/09/mac01.jpg] This post shows conclusively how Macs are significantly overpriced. That said, if someone gave one to me I’d take it. :-)

Emphasis above mine.

I don’t know about “conclusively”, but even without that comparison, it is already well-known that Apple is outrageously priced in some areas, especially with hard drives, memory and (most of the time) software, so selecting a number of their options is pretty stupid unless you have the money to burn and find it “easier” to do so. If you have a certain amount of experience putting computers together, you can even do better with additional items, depending on the computer you select.

That said, even if you shop carefully and don’t buy the stuff that’s obviously priced in fantasy land, Apples are more expensive. It’s pretty hard to argue with that. The difference is in the amount of hassle, and how much that is worth to you (for the purposes of the average person, I’m ignoring situations where only one or the other will fit the bill because of software or a specific function it will perform).

I currently own 6 Macs going back to my current oldest, a 2004 iMac G5. I’ve been buying Macs since 1985, and they have always cost me more than an “equivalent” PC. However, I value my time more highly than my money, and the amount of time I have had to spend with configuring, diagnosing, and maintenance of my Macs has been considerably less than what I have had to spend both at work on PC maintenance (and I’m not even in IT) and with friends and family helping them get their “cheap” PC installations working right to do what they want them to do, and keeping them in working order.

In no way are Macs perfect, without any software issues, or anything similar to that, and they will not save the world. In my experience, however, you do get what you pay for, and I’ve never regretted spending the extra money. Since I work with computers, I’m perfectly capable of using and configuring Windows and Linux machines to do what I want. I just don’t want to spend that time with my home machines, and the amount of time they “just work” is very high.

But as someone who IS in IT full time, it is worth noting that Apple builds their computers in such a way as to minimize the ‘threat’ of people modifying the hardware. They have reason to do so, and yes, you *might* be able to add RAM or swap the HDD, but if a major component goes (like http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2009/11/comedy-tragedy-of-errors.html the cracked screen issue from last year ), we’re down a full computer. I can’t do anything to it other than call Apple and return it for repairs or truck it to an Apple Store. That’s a MAJOR problem in terms of efficiency and workflow.

That, coupled with the fact that Apple drives the market in terms of hardware and peripheral adoption (by which I mean that they insist on eliminating legacy hardware quickly), makes Macs a nightmare to support for an average IT guy.

I suppose we COULD junk the new server and new PC’s that we just bought….but then we have to run PC-Specific software (which there is a lot of out there) in a virtualized Windows environment, which means I have to train the end-users on PC’s anyway.

/rant

Jay,

In the interest of “the rest of the story,” I will note that I live about 1 mile from the closest Apple store, and there are two more within 40 minutes. That does make that part of it easier for me. There is a local 3rd-party shop that will fix Macs, but they are expensive, and since I’ve never used them, I have no idea what the quality of their work is. I’m competent enough to do a lot of work myself, but I wouldn’t touch a cracked screen, especially if it came from Apple that way.

I agree with your issues with PC-specific software, and for most, there’s no reason to use a Mac to do that, especially if the PCs are already in house. I finally retired my one PC purchase ever (purchased 5 years ago for school software that my kids have to run, prior to Apple using Intel chips) and replaced it with a Mac running Virtual Box on one of the processor cores. Since my PC use is comparatively light, that was an easy decision for me. Obviously, there are plenty for whom that doesn’t work, especially certain business segments.

I still maintain that for the average home user without a significant investment in PC software, a Mac almost always makes more sense if the extra cost is not an issue (although this is definitely not true if your primary use is computer games). However, as others have pointed out, the cost IS an issue for many.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:SE1SO8Wyr4NxRM:http://static.bf2s.co…

Parallels was recommended highly, and although I didn’t think it was the easiest to setup and use, it does the job well. I’d recommend it as well.

That being said, I’m off topic, so I’ll drop it now :)

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/pc-vs-mac.jpg

[jwolf6589] Again I lost a post.

How are you managing to lose posts?

Perhaps there is some gap we can fill in.

[Susan R] http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/pc-vs-mac.jpg

Susan,

At my place of business, it would most likely be the guy on the right, at least in engineering, but not because of the way he is dressed — it would be based on how he would fit into the organization, assuming expertise is equivalent. We have > 75% engineers, most of whom dress signficantly *less* businesslike than the Mac dude. I’m pretty dressed up wearing jeans with a collared shirt, and really so when wearing khaki pants instead. T-shirt, shorts, and flip flops is the fairly standard dress of my co-workers, though women are usually better dressed than the guys.

The only time someone would *ever* dress like the PC guy is for an interview, and in my line of work, dressing up that much is actually a minus point. I would hire either of the guys above with the right technical knowledge and comfort with the team, but when an engineer comes in for an interview, if he’s wearing a suit, that’s usually a point against him that he has to dispel with his expertise. Since he wouldn’t be interviewing for a sales/marketing type job (for which that dress would be more appropriate), I always wonder if he’s trying to impress with his looks rather than what he knows, so I would grill him that much harder. If he intends to be a software manager (engineers like myself still interview them, though we don’t have direct hiring authority), since I wouldn’t want a guy who is going to think that dress codes are going to increase productivity, I would be trying to find out if he thinks “business dress” is something really important for this job.

The reality for us, though, is that almost no one comes to an interview dressed like either of the above. It’s usually what we call “business casual,” nice shirt, khakis, shoes somewhere in-between the above. Again, women usually dress a little better, but that’s not a minus point for them. Even our sales and marketing guys usually wear nice slacks with a white shirt, no tie or jacket.

Of course, I accept that the dress for the software/hardware engineering industry is an anomaly in the usual business world. I’m just really glad I work in that industry, and not in one where “businesslike” appearance is a major factor.

People- I appreciate your explanations, but I really don’t care what computer you use. I don’t have a preference, as I’ve used both PC and Mac and think they’re both great and have their place in the free market. For homeschooling it is much cheaper and easier for us to use PCs. Don’t take those images seriously ya’ll. Laugh a little. Eat some fudge.

http://media.odetoapple.com/i/general/mac-pc.jpg

There now. Does everyone feel better?

Susan, I like that cartoon. It could be improved by showing two or three mechanics working on the PC.

I am suspicious that IT guys (not necessarily anyone here) are really pro-PC for one reason: Job security.

My pro-PC friend asked me one time a few years ago, “How cheap would a PC have to be for you to buy one?” When I thought about it, I came up with -$2,000 dollars (yep, that’s a minus sign). In fact, given the time requirements, it is probably much higher than that.

“Everything’s a trade-off”. So you go with what works best for you, ignoring or at least tolerating the down side because the down side is worth the up side.

I’ll never understand, however, why some people have so much trouble with their home PCs. I’ve had a PC of one kind or other for umpteen years- no viruses, no crashes (that weren’t entirely my fault), and I don’t need to take time to run maintenance because all of my free maintenance programs run on schedules at night, along with other automatic updates.

Work PCs are a different game entirely, however. You don’t get to control how the computer is used or programmed… Macs have a definite advantage in the workplace, IMO. But no way am I buying a Mac for my 8 year old- he has a little Gateway netbook for school that cost about $30. With my school budget, that price was perfect.

http://blaugh.com/cartoons/061026_more_pc_software.gif

Work PCs are a different game entirely, however. You don’t get to control how the computer is used or programmed… Macs have a definite advantage in the workplace, IMO.

No they don’t, because Macs don’t natively integrate with Windows networks that use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Directory] Active Directory , which is used by most businesses of any size - my organization is not even ten people, and we’re using it. As a vendor told me last week - you can make it work, but it’s a LOT of hassle. That, and if you want to use Entourage, you need something called the Web Services plugin to work with Exchange. Outlook 2011 for Mac will fix that, I think, but it’s another layer of complexity that doesn’t come “out of the box”.