"Conservative Evangelicals & Fundamentalists"- Central Seminary Posts Workshop Audio
Central has made available this lecture by Kevin Bauder from their Pastors’ Day 2009 - The Ties that Bind Us: The Basics of Fundamentalism
- 12 views
I really enjoyed the bird’s eye overview of the various “movements/reactions”. When you’ve been in a small patch of the trees most of your life, its a nice exercise to take a quick soar around the forest.
Still, though…there are unknowns in my small patch of trees called “fundamentalism”. Thanks to good resources and sharpening on SI, I am learning.
Still, though…there are unknowns in my small patch of trees called “fundamentalism”. Thanks to good resources and sharpening on SI, I am learning.
Thanks for the link, Greg. I am 25 minutes into this.
If one is an organizational loyalist, I have a cure for you.
Come minister in the Mormon corridor in America.
et
If one is an organizational loyalist, I have a cure for you.
Come minister in the Mormon corridor in America.
et
The quote (not by Bauder) - “95% of fundamentalism is KJVO”
This makes me ask this question - What independent Baptist church west of Colorado uses a translation today in pulpit ministry other than the KJV or NKJV?
This makes me ask this question - What independent Baptist church west of Colorado uses a translation today in pulpit ministry other than the KJV or NKJV?
Todd,
Would you count, say, GARBC churches as “independent”? I imagine some of them at least would.
For that matter, why include the NKJV in your assessment? Most KJV types I know would consider it about as problematic as any other modern version.
Would you count, say, GARBC churches as “independent”? I imagine some of them at least would.
For that matter, why include the NKJV in your assessment? Most KJV types I know would consider it about as problematic as any other modern version.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
[Todd Wood] The quote (not by Bauder) - “95% of fundamentalism is KJVO”This quote is just plain stupidity. It sounds like someone committed the same error that Phil Johnson committed during the whole “Dead Right” conversation. Phil tried to claim:
This makes me ask this question - What independent Baptist church west of Colorado uses a translation today in pulpit ministry other than the KJV or NKJV?
But I propose a test: We’ll survey the churches listed at fundamentaltop500.com, which seems a pretty representative sample of American churches that identify themselves as members of the fundamentalist movement.However, if you went to the site he listed, you will find it is a site that self-selects to a particular branch of Fundamentalism
TheFundamentalTop500.com is more than just tracking which web sites get the most traffic. Our underlying purpose is to help the creators of web sites get more traffic to their sites by providing a FREE way for them to get additional exposure to fundamental, KJV Christians on the Internet.The site also speaks of being “defending the KJV” and “independent, fundamental, Baptist, King James Bible.”
Whoever made this quote that Todd mentions claim seems to be making the same error as Phil (perhaps based on Phil’s original claim).
Todd,
I would also clarify that using the KJV is not the same as being KJVO.
Frank
Frank,
It would be interesting to see how that percentage would look if it were not necessarily limited to the KJVOs, but the “KJVOs and those who love them,” if you will. I want to agree with your sentiment, I really do… But the recent inclusion of John Vaughn and Mike Shrock on a platform with Jack Schaap at Sexton’s conference (along with other factors discussed here around SI) make me inclined otherwise, I must admit, and not just “west of Colorado” as Todd inquires. The “Fundamentalist500” types (and their leaders) are drawing lines and setting boundaries for what qualifies people as Fundamentalists- not just a particular branch of it, but staking it out as a criteria for what normal Christianity must look like. Moves such as I referenced leave me with the impression that leaders in the circles I believe you to be referencing are comfortable with those lines being drawn, and if they are not standing within those boundaries, are certainly giving serious consideration to their legitimacy.
It would be interesting to see how that percentage would look if it were not necessarily limited to the KJVOs, but the “KJVOs and those who love them,” if you will. I want to agree with your sentiment, I really do… But the recent inclusion of John Vaughn and Mike Shrock on a platform with Jack Schaap at Sexton’s conference (along with other factors discussed here around SI) make me inclined otherwise, I must admit, and not just “west of Colorado” as Todd inquires. The “Fundamentalist500” types (and their leaders) are drawing lines and setting boundaries for what qualifies people as Fundamentalists- not just a particular branch of it, but staking it out as a criteria for what normal Christianity must look like. Moves such as I referenced leave me with the impression that leaders in the circles I believe you to be referencing are comfortable with those lines being drawn, and if they are not standing within those boundaries, are certainly giving serious consideration to their legitimacy.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Since Bauder might be addressing some of these issues fairly soon with brothers in SLC, let me try to compile the list of tools by conservative evangelical brethren that have assisted me while ministering in the I-15 Corridor.
Todd,
the conference this April will have a session about innerancy and a session about conservative evangelicals and separation. I don’t know what direction Dr. B. will go with those things, but I am pretty sure the KJVO issue will only be cursory or off-handed.
Looking forward to the end of April for the conference.
the conference this April will have a session about innerancy and a session about conservative evangelicals and separation. I don’t know what direction Dr. B. will go with those things, but I am pretty sure the KJVO issue will only be cursory or off-handed.
Looking forward to the end of April for the conference.
Matt, here is my take from our I-15 Corridor perspective.
These brothers have been helpful to me - ten whom Bauder mentioned:
1) Al Mohler provides helpful info to me on responding to contemporary issues.
2) Mark Dever provides helpful info to me on church government and philosophy. Our men have utilized The Deliberate Church.
3) D.A. Carson has been one of the best exegetes on John’s Gospel.
4) John MacArthur provides helpful leadership conferences here in the West. I have been edified by The Shepherd’s Conference. And our church family has been through the “Fundamentals of the Faith” curriculum by GCC. I regularly consult the MacArthur Study Bible (NASB).
5) Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology is very beneficial to me.
6) Bruce Ware, by far, one of the best helpers to encourage me in the battle for God’s sovereignty and the Trinity here in the I-15 Corridor.
7) C. J. Mahaney & Sovereign Grace - Mahaney’s books simply stir me toward humble, joyful service for the King. Our church family sings some of the Sovereign Grace songs.
8) R.C. Sproul - I have the Reformed Study Bible. He is a minister whom I consult for church history issues.
9) John Piper - I have a number of his books. I am finishing The Passion of Jesus Christ again this week. I appreciate his charity to fundamentalists.
10) Tim Keller - The Prodigal God is one of the best gospel books to give to conservative, hard-working moralists here in the I-15 Corridor.
Bauder quickly shares four differences at the end among fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals: 1)anti-dispensational, 2) openess to miraculous gifts, 3) more trendy, and 4) indifferentists.
Here are my observations for what they are worth. Though there might be a resurgence of a new Calvinism elsewhere in America largely due to these men, the I-15 Mormon Corridor is still ground zero. There is one big black hole in the church planting networks of Driscoll, Keller, and Dever, and all the others. It is the professional, academic, moral, internet savvy, conservative American, white, highly religious Corridor. Calvinists like James White and the young Aaron of MRM make bold presentations but that is about it. They are the few drops.
Independent Baptists and Independent Bible men and SBC men have been plugging away. And that is good. But probably the largest, vibrant, conservative evangelical movement in our neck of the woods is Calvary Chapel - their large churches, their unified radio program, and their large Christian schools that utilize fully the educational curriculum of Bob Jones University and Pensacola Christian College. Three hundred young people, including two of my children, in Idaho Falls are being taught by teachers using Bob Jones textbooks.
In an LDS culture, where at least 5 out of ten homes attend church every Sunday and where there is a church steeple, Sunday dress, a pulpit, pew hymn books, organ and piano, topical messages, and the KJV, the Calvary Chapel movement is both conservative and counter cultural and refreshing. They are having a huge impact.
*Conservative evangelicalism in the Corridor is not anti-dispensational. I know there are outposts, but clearly there are no widely influential, evangelical, anti-dispensational (Reformed and/or Calvinistic) headquarters in Mormon country. The teachings of Augustine have hardly any foothold. And the Calvary Chapel pastors are very similar to many independent Baptist pastors in their uneasiness with John Calvin. But in Mormon country, defining and teaching the purposes of the old covenant and new covenant is fundamentally important to gospel truth rather than a dispensational versus reform debate.
*Openness to miraculous gifts? Now this everywhere. In fact, it is one of the articles of faith for our LDS culture. :) But my continual debate with the dominant culture would delve more into bibliology - inerrancy, canonicity, sufficiency, and authority of scripture. On these fundamentals, our Calvary Chapel brothers would see eye to eye with me. I don’t see the debate on cessationism or noncessationism as fundamental to our Christian existence here.
*Trendiness? I don’t think the Calvary Chapel movement in the Intermountain West comes even close to the trendiness push by Driscoll over on the West coast or Keller’s church over on the east coast. Of course, CC is more trendy than Independent Baptists (chuckling), but I think the most worldly element that continually threatens us in the Corridor is not rap music but Glenn Beck and American Boy Scout moralism. Let’s take the tool of the culture and turn it on its head by flooding our young people with the gospel of grace.
*Indifferentists? Who is leading the way in exposing and refuting the error of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Christ’s Church? Or rebuking those genuine brothers who would be indifferentists to American moralism or American liberalism? It is a toss up between fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Flip a coin on a given week.
These brothers have been helpful to me - ten whom Bauder mentioned:
1) Al Mohler provides helpful info to me on responding to contemporary issues.
2) Mark Dever provides helpful info to me on church government and philosophy. Our men have utilized The Deliberate Church.
3) D.A. Carson has been one of the best exegetes on John’s Gospel.
4) John MacArthur provides helpful leadership conferences here in the West. I have been edified by The Shepherd’s Conference. And our church family has been through the “Fundamentals of the Faith” curriculum by GCC. I regularly consult the MacArthur Study Bible (NASB).
5) Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology is very beneficial to me.
6) Bruce Ware, by far, one of the best helpers to encourage me in the battle for God’s sovereignty and the Trinity here in the I-15 Corridor.
7) C. J. Mahaney & Sovereign Grace - Mahaney’s books simply stir me toward humble, joyful service for the King. Our church family sings some of the Sovereign Grace songs.
8) R.C. Sproul - I have the Reformed Study Bible. He is a minister whom I consult for church history issues.
9) John Piper - I have a number of his books. I am finishing The Passion of Jesus Christ again this week. I appreciate his charity to fundamentalists.
10) Tim Keller - The Prodigal God is one of the best gospel books to give to conservative, hard-working moralists here in the I-15 Corridor.
Bauder quickly shares four differences at the end among fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals: 1)anti-dispensational, 2) openess to miraculous gifts, 3) more trendy, and 4) indifferentists.
Here are my observations for what they are worth. Though there might be a resurgence of a new Calvinism elsewhere in America largely due to these men, the I-15 Mormon Corridor is still ground zero. There is one big black hole in the church planting networks of Driscoll, Keller, and Dever, and all the others. It is the professional, academic, moral, internet savvy, conservative American, white, highly religious Corridor. Calvinists like James White and the young Aaron of MRM make bold presentations but that is about it. They are the few drops.
Independent Baptists and Independent Bible men and SBC men have been plugging away. And that is good. But probably the largest, vibrant, conservative evangelical movement in our neck of the woods is Calvary Chapel - their large churches, their unified radio program, and their large Christian schools that utilize fully the educational curriculum of Bob Jones University and Pensacola Christian College. Three hundred young people, including two of my children, in Idaho Falls are being taught by teachers using Bob Jones textbooks.
In an LDS culture, where at least 5 out of ten homes attend church every Sunday and where there is a church steeple, Sunday dress, a pulpit, pew hymn books, organ and piano, topical messages, and the KJV, the Calvary Chapel movement is both conservative and counter cultural and refreshing. They are having a huge impact.
*Conservative evangelicalism in the Corridor is not anti-dispensational. I know there are outposts, but clearly there are no widely influential, evangelical, anti-dispensational (Reformed and/or Calvinistic) headquarters in Mormon country. The teachings of Augustine have hardly any foothold. And the Calvary Chapel pastors are very similar to many independent Baptist pastors in their uneasiness with John Calvin. But in Mormon country, defining and teaching the purposes of the old covenant and new covenant is fundamentally important to gospel truth rather than a dispensational versus reform debate.
*Openness to miraculous gifts? Now this everywhere. In fact, it is one of the articles of faith for our LDS culture. :) But my continual debate with the dominant culture would delve more into bibliology - inerrancy, canonicity, sufficiency, and authority of scripture. On these fundamentals, our Calvary Chapel brothers would see eye to eye with me. I don’t see the debate on cessationism or noncessationism as fundamental to our Christian existence here.
*Trendiness? I don’t think the Calvary Chapel movement in the Intermountain West comes even close to the trendiness push by Driscoll over on the West coast or Keller’s church over on the east coast. Of course, CC is more trendy than Independent Baptists (chuckling), but I think the most worldly element that continually threatens us in the Corridor is not rap music but Glenn Beck and American Boy Scout moralism. Let’s take the tool of the culture and turn it on its head by flooding our young people with the gospel of grace.
*Indifferentists? Who is leading the way in exposing and refuting the error of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Christ’s Church? Or rebuking those genuine brothers who would be indifferentists to American moralism or American liberalism? It is a toss up between fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Flip a coin on a given week.
Discussion