Get a Skill Before Going to Seminary!
I am telling you what you 2 describe is not the normal situation. I HAVE SEEN IT LITERALLY A 100 TIMES, and that’s just the people I personally have advised in my office.
Jim, do you really think your daughter represents the average situation for HS and community college students?
I can’t get away from people flashing around MIT!!!!
**Try being a scientist without being judged because you didn’t go to Cal Tech, MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley, etc…You are a peon if you didn’t.
Also seminarians need to realize … and they don’t:
- Frankly not all will end up in paying jobs (I mean a job that will provide a livable wage).
- And this is for many reasons:
- Supply and demand. Eg. At one time there were 130+ MBA churches … now less than 50
- Some are flaky and went to seminary for the wrong reason. The seminary doesn’t care .. wants the headcount and the associated tuition
- Some may be in the ministry for a time and then not:
- Ill suited or not a good fit
- Illness or accident may cut the career short
- Moral failure or divorce (sad to to say but continues even in fundy circles)
- And then what?!
- I worked with 3 seminary grads to get them jobs at the major financial institution for whom I work
- Case A: Undergrad was finance at BJU. MDiv from well-know but now defunct seminary in Eastern PA. No moral failure … just wasn’t the direction he wanted to go. Now with company and has had at least two promotions
- Case B; Undergrad at now defunct MN Bible college. Graduate from MN seminary. In my mind not the personality or giftedness for vocational ministry. I could not even get him interviewed. Now working at a menial job that a H/S grad could do
- Case C: Grad from Christian HS / Christian College / and MDiv from Seminary. Out of vocational ministry b/c of moral failure on field [was fully funded missionary]. Could not even get the guy an interview. Unemployed
[Mark_Smith] Jim, do you really think your daughter represents the average situation for HS and community college students?
My daughter is exceptionally bright. Did not get it from my side of the family. Also highly motivated. (Also not from my side of the family … we call that the slacker side!)
As the son of a pastor I can say from watching my dad that being a pastor AND working a full-time job can be tough, especially if the job is a factory job.
It is tough on the pastor because of all the work hours and time away from home. Plus hearing from a deacon questions about why the extra job is needed. Thanks for the understanding & support Bro!!
It is tough on the family because Dad is gone so much and when he is home he is likely tired.
It is tough on the church because their pastor isn’t able to devote as much time to the ministry.
I understand the topic of this thread, but the idea of a pastor working another job could be a crutch to certain churches to not support their pastor as well as they could.
About halfway through my USAF career I badly wanted to get “out.” I hated my job and the frequent deployments to Central America to where my unit was tasked. But as I contemplated marriage it made more sense to stay “in” (have you ever noticed how military guys sound as if they are in prison?). I had a steady job, great benefits, and an early retirement pension available. I decided to stay in the USAF, put money away for the GI Bill, go to seminary after retiring and then pursue ministry. And that is exactly what happened. There were and are a lot of guys in the service who want to serve the Lord after they get “out.” This is an excellent way to do it.
[Jim]
- I worked with 3 seminary grads to get them jobs at the major financial institution for whom I work
- Case A: Undergrad was finance at BJU. MDiv from well-know but now defunct seminary in Eastern PA. No moral failure … just wasn’t the direction he wanted to go. Now with company and has had at least two promotions
- Case B; Undergrad at now defunct MN Bible college. Graduate from MN seminary. In my mind not the personality or giftedness for vocational ministry. I could not even get him interviewed. Now working at a menial job that a H/S grad could do
- Case C: Grad from Christian HS / Christian College / and MDiv from Seminary. Out of vocational ministry b/c of moral failure on field [was fully funded missionary]. Could not even get the guy an interview. Unemployed
This is sad. My opinion is that these results are because of a church culture that lacks real discipleship - I don’t mean a 12 week Jim Berg workbook either. I mean, ministry like Jesus did with the 12 like A.B. Bruce wrote about in the Training of the Twelve. The business-church model has an assembly line mindset: get them through Sunday School, Christian School, Bible College, Seminary –> Fully matured disciple of Christ is now ready for service!
Wrong!
Alan Hirsch, in his book Forgotten Ways believes that the western Greek Academy model of making pupils has replaced the eastern model that we see with Jesus - relational mentor/pupil doing life together and learning by watching, then doing with the master, then doing alone with master watching, then doing by himself. If this was our model for making disciples and potential preachers, then you would weed out example B and C long before they have wasted a good part of their life going down a path they should never have embarked on. A loving mentor and nurturing body of believers would have helped steer them in the right direction.
But like you said, the seminary doesn’t care so much about gifting, calling and character as they do tuition. That’s one reason why seminary is NOT the best way to train.
[mmartin]As the son of a pastor I can say from watching my dad that being a pastor AND working a full-time job can be tough, especially if the job is a factory job.
It is tough on the pastor because of all the work hours and time away from home.
Yep, definitely not the kind of “smart job” that Hugh Halter talks about in his book. That’s the kind of job that will wear you thin fast. It has to be something that makes more money with less effort.
- After college graduation, I applied to graduate school at the Univer of Cincinnati. Was offered a full scholarship plus a teaching stipend (as it turned out I went with Campus Crusade for Christ (the Krew!). A regret!
- My daughter with 1 year of graduate school has opportunity to be teaching assistant for two graduate level classes for a combo of both pay and tuition reduction
- if you are a seminarian past your MDiv (working on ThM or DMin) and you aren’t teaching … someone is trying to tell you something. Quite possibly that dream job of being a seminary professor just is not on the horizon
The trades:
- Electrician
- Plumber
- Skilled woodworker (eg cabinet maker)
These pay 3-4x minimum wage and you can take the job with you. Can do work in suburbs (turns out that in Minneapolis city proper (my location) must be a part of a union to work in city), and can work in the boondocks.
I’ve worked a number of jobs in support of my ministry. The article mentioned real estate agent as an option. Well… I’ve been a real estate agent and at times a fairly successful one (I have the plaques!). I actually love selling real estate, my dad was a Realtor, I grew up with it and was licensed at 18 (yeah, put your single greatest investment in the hands of an 18 year old! that was fun). However, as a means to support ministry… I am not against it, but there are several challenges. One, getting in - it costs money to get up and running and you don’t get paid until the first property sale closes. You could easily go several months before getting paid. You need some capital to start. Two, can’t leave the job at the office - when I was selling, my mind was always engaged with what I needed to do for the next sale: prospecting, serving listings, searching for properties for buyers, etc, etc. Just couldn’t shut that off. It is draining and not necessarily conducive to the ministry (unless you are a Type A, which I am not).
Marketable skills: it is hard to predict what skills will fit whatever market happens to exist in the vicinity of your ministry. I admire guys who have marketable skills, but there are challenges here as well. It takes time to get those skills, some jobs are very demanding - my brother is an accountant, he works long hours, plus the study for an expositional ministry, plus ministry time with people. We both live on the maxim: “Sleep is over-rated” but there is a price to pay for this at some point.
Basically, what I am saying is that there is no pie in the sky solution to the challenge of ministry. You can whine all you want about how seminary doesn’t prepare you for this (it’s not supposed to), but the individual has to be committed to serving the Lord whatever it takes. And if that means a menial job or a high-falutin’ job, it doesn’t matter. Just figure out how to do it and get busy doing it. (And get out of your seminary town and get in the trenches somewhere. Lots of opportunities, just need more warm bodies.)
Life is hard, but “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.” (Heb 2.9)
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
[Don Johnson] Marketable skills: it is hard to predict what skills will fit whatever market happens to exist in the vicinity of your ministry.
As long as there are toilets … there will be a need for plumbers
My marketable skill (besides my Brad Pitt good looks and delightful personality):
- I have a degree in finance and economics (‘71). Took a programming class as an elective (FORTRAN).
- I was able to be bi-vocational for a number of years as a computer guy
Don,
Good points and great experience that you bring to the table. I’ve never been a real estate guy, so I wouldn’t have thought of those distractions / difficulties.
Personally, I should have gone into some kind of tech skill as a young man living in the Silicon Valley in CA. Instead, I believed the idealism of my former pastor and followed his dream for aspiring preachers. Now, I’m struggling in the transition stage with a college degree that isn’t worth anything to hardly anyone.
There are other factors that could be weighed in and discussed as well
- The church should provide some kind of income for the pastor. If it can’t afford full time, at least give him a housing allowance tax free (while it lasts) and he can work part time at a trade for his other expenses. This will give him more time for the church than just the few hours left over after a 40 hour work week.
- A plurality of elders will alleviate a great bit of burden for the lead teaching and preaching pastor. Another guy who is better at counseling should do that. Another guy who’s better at administration and organization should do that so the one pastor isn’t stretched too thin. If you’re against plurality of elders, then you’re SOL…sorry out of luck.
In the book I referenced, Hugh Halter mentions that his church which runs over 300 has seven paid staff…none of them are full time. For the price of 2-3 full time people, he gets seven bi-vos, including himself. He thinks the trade is worth it. They contribute according to their giftedness and it costs the church less.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
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