Transgender in the Church: Not Hypothetical

By Rev Karl Fri, 10/02/2009 - 8:20am
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Rev Karl
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A while back there was a thread here on SI discussing an essay assignment as part of a college course in which a hypothetical situation was presented, and the student was to discuss their plan to deal with it.

The hypothetical situation (if I remember correctly) was that a woman began attending the church, heard the Gospel, and accepted Christ as Savior. She then came to the pastor to confess that "she" had been born male, and had undergone "gender reasignment" surgery to have the appearance of a female. The essay asked the student to describe what their response would be.

We now have such a situation in the national news that is most definitely not hypothetical.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/congregation-embraces-transgen...

ABCNews wrote:

The sermon the Rev. David Weekley delivered late last month to his congregation in Portland, Ore., took, he said, "more than half a century to write."

Calling it the most "deeply personal message" of his career, Weekley, 58, told his congregation that the man who had ministered to their spiritual needs, married them, buried their parents and baptized their children -- was actually born a girl.

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Fri, 10/02/2009 - 10:54am
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Rob Fall
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While I would say TGism is a

While I would say TGism is a bar to the "pulpit" ministry, the question of church membership is another. Just on the face of it, I'd go with treating the problem in the same way you'd treat a person who was in a wheelchair because of a criminal act.

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Fri, 10/02/2009 - 3:47pm
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Joseph
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Very few Christians think,

Very few Christians think, much less write, about this and related topics.

I highly recommend Theological ethicist Oliver O'Donovan's "Transsexualism and Christian Marriage," an article published in 1982 (I think). I try to see if it's available online without access to a university.

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Thu, 10/08/2009 - 11:45am
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BobAnderson1950
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How does God accept us?

We come to God as we are, history and all. To say this person compares to an individual a person "who was in a wheelchair because of a criminal act" does not make sense. To have gone through the agony, self seeking, and final surgery involved in becoming transgender must have been difficult. That they found Christ the happy destination to a long journey.

Let's get off the "we are better than you" bandwagon and accept our church members as they come to us. As Christ said "if you are without sin, cast the first stone." Rarely do we find a person who has lived a 'holy' life, without difficult marriages, without divorce, without bad decisions. Those who feel they are above the transgender person because they have not faced the same troubles, needs to take a long look in the mirror.

Think also of how the individual has a unique ministry to those who are struggling with the same gender issues. if you have a person who has made these changes prior to finding Christ, or is thinking about making them after they find Christ.

God welcomes all into his kingdom, regardless of the path they took to find Him.

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Thu, 10/08/2009 - 12:22pm
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Rob Fall
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The Wheelchair.

Since I'm the one who used the wheelchair analogy. I'll respond.
First, I live on the San Francisco Peninsula.
Second, HSBC is located one block west of Van Ness Avenue and two blocks west of Polk Street (aka Polk Gulch).
So, I've dealt with more trans-gendered persons than most here. Here's one from a few years back: One of our members sold Mary Kay products. She asked our pastor what she should do. An attendee (we have many who attend but don't join) Matilda formerly Matthew had asked of an appointment. IIRC, the advice was to go ahead with the appointment.

My point was we deal with people as they are. The wheelchair illustration was a bit clumsy, but then I didn't define the criminal act. Only that the act resulted in a permanent disability. As noted, I know the pain involved. And I'm not diminishing it. However, I must look on the situation as a consequence of sin.

BobAnderson1950 wrote:

We come to God as we are, history and all. To say this person compares to an individual a person "who was in a wheelchair because of a criminal act" does not make sense. To have gone through the agony, self seeking, and final surgery involved in becoming transgender must have been difficult. That they found Christ the happy destination to a long journey.

Let's get off the "we are better than you" bandwagon and accept our church members as they come to us. As Christ said "if you are without sin, cast the first stone." Rarely do we find a person who has lived a 'holy' life, without difficult marriages, without divorce, without bad decisions. Those who feel they are above the transgender person because they have not faced the same troubles, needs to take a long look in the mirror.

Think also of how the individual has a unique ministry to those who are struggling with the same gender issues. if you have a person who has made these changes prior to finding Christ, or is thinking about making them after they find Christ.

God welcomes all into his kingdom, regardless of the path they took to find Him.

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Thu, 10/08/2009 - 1:55pm
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Rev Karl
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We come to God as we are
BobAnderson1950 wrote:

We come to God as we are, history and all.
::SNIP::
God welcomes all into his kingdom, regardless of the path they took to find Him.

This verse instantly comes to mind:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

God accepts us "just as we are", but we are not supposed to *stay* just as we were. We are to seek to be conformed to the image of Christ.

• If we come to Christ as a drunkard, Scripture teaches that we are to forsake the sin of drunkenness.
• If we come to Christ from a life of promiscuity, Scripture teaches that we are to forsake the sin of sexual immorality.
• If we come to Christ as a thief, Scripture teaches that we are to forsake the sin of stealing.

Questions (not arguments - I just would like to know):
• If a person undergoes "gender reassignment", in they eyes of God, is that person the gender they were at birth, or the reassigned gender?
• Does God considers "gender reassignment" a sin?
• If a person (in this case, let’s say a male) undergoes "gender reassignment", and engages in a relationship with a man, does God consider that to be a homosexual relationship?

If a person undergoes "gender reassignment", and upon salvation by grace seeks to be reconciled to God, how do they do that?

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Sun, 10/11/2009 - 8:40pm
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Dave G
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Well said Karl. This is all

Well said Karl.

This is all just my opinion, but I feel right in expressing it:

• If a person undergoes "gender reassignment", in they eyes of God, is that person the gender they were at birth, or the reassigned gender?

Tough one. I'd say that in the eyes of God they are what they are at birth...difficult in the issue of a hermaphrodite tho.

• Does God considers "gender reassignment" a sin?

I'll answer that with another question:

Does God consider the thoughts that lead to a "gender reassignment", such as the probable attraction to the same sex and obvious rebellion of His natural design a sin? Yes. Just as homosexuality is an abomination, I believe that other forms of sexual deviance, including so-called "transgendered" can be lumped in.

• If a person (in this case, let’s say a male) undergoes "gender reassignment", and engages in a relationship with a man, does God consider that to be a homosexual relationship?

Without a doubt. No need to consult modern psychology here...any man who has sex with a man commits an abominable act...whether he's "technically" in the body of a woman or not. He was born a man.

-If a person undergoes "gender reassignment", and upon salvation by grace seeks to be reconciled to God, how do they do that?

> Take up a collection and undo what's been done, if possible, IMO.

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Sun, 10/11/2009 - 10:50pm
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Kevin Miller
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Dave G wrote: • If a person
Dave G wrote:

• If a person undergoes "gender reassignment", in they eyes of God, is that person the gender they were at birth, or the reassigned gender?

Tough one. I'd say that in the eyes of God they are what they are at birth...difficult in the issue of a hermaphrodite tho.

It is the issue of the hermaphrodite that is the most thought provoking to me. It is true that some people are born with both sets of organs, isn't it? What gender are they? Is it possible for the doctors to remove one set of organs and then have the child grow up feeling that the wrong set was removed? If it is possible for a birth defect to result in two sets of organs, with one of them being wrong, then couldn't the same sort of birth defect result in one set of organs, with that one set being wrong? Is our identity as a male or female totally determined by what reproductive organ we have, or is there something in the brain that would let a hermaphrodite know that they are male or female even though they had both sets. Difficult questions, for which I don't really have the answers myself.

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Mon, 10/12/2009 - 6:01pm
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Dave G
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Actually, I'd have to ask

Actually, I'd have to ask that person, "hey, which sex are you naturally attracted to?" at about the age of 12-13, with NO outside influence. Very difficult in American culture today, what with sex tainting almost everything outside the shelter of the church.

A feminine or masculine personality should start to be evident early on, even before this, but I'm not a doctor or anything...

That's about all I can come up with.

Dave.

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Sola Scriptura, both mentally and physically.
That means no other books about Bible interpretation on my shelf, sorry...Wink

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Tue, 10/13/2009 - 3:06am
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Ann B.
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transgender vs. hermaphroditic condition
Dave G wrote:

• If a person undergoes "gender reassignment", in they eyes of God, is that person the gender they were at birth, or the reassigned gender?

Tough one. I'd say that in the eyes of God they are what they are at birth...difficult in the issue of a hermaphrodite tho.

Let's see if I can remember all those old biology notes. Female = xx; male = xy. The two issues - hermaphrodite and transgender - are really very separate.

The hermaphrodite, a person with both male and female characteristics, a sad situation, has a chromosomal abnormality such as having an xxy chromosomal pattern, which truly does include both genders. I think in those situations doctors/parents/the person usually try to determine which set of characteristics is most prominent and go with that gender, usually when the person is very young.

The transgendered person, on the other hand, is chromosomally male or female. Just because a transgendered female (male "become" female) chooses to mutilate his (her?) body, surgically and pharmaceutically, does not erase the male xy chromosomal pattern in every one of the person's cells.

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Tue, 10/13/2009 - 9:11am
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Chip Van Emmerik
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Ann B wrote: Let's see if I
Ann B wrote:

Let's see if I can remember all those old biology notes. Female = xx; male = xy. The two issues - hermaphrodite and transgender - are really very separate.

Actually, I do not think they are different issues. My understanding is that even hermaphrodites have xx or xy chromosomes. What makes them different are mutations in genes related to sexual differentiation.

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