Statement of Faith Eternal?

By Carol K Mon, 04/12/2010 - 2:50pm
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Carol K
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A statement of faith has been written up, and it is about to be put up for vote. One of the reasons this statement of faith was written up is because of a problem that arose in a ministry group, that is under no church leadership. This is a group of young people, ranging in age from 14-25 years of age. They are self governing, but parents are obviously overseeing, to some extent. It was discovered that there are 'conservative universalists' in the group. I say conservative because they actually do believe in a literal hell, BUT they believe hell is not 'eternal' and that they will be restored at the end of 'this age'.

They believe that the word 'eternal' has not been properly translated from the Greek and that it usually refers to 'age' or 'set period of time'. Every time they read 'eternal' they think 'set period of time'.

I am hoping to gain some wisdom from you men/women here. The last point of reference to the statement of faith states:

We believe in the bodily resurrection of all humanity a, the saved to eternal life b, and the
unsaved to eternal conscious punishment c.

a) John 5:29
b) John 3:16; Romans 6:23
c) Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 25:30, 41, 46; Revelation 20:15

I am fairly confident that the universalist we know in this group would be able to, in good conscience sign this statement of faith.

Is there a way to reword this last point, so that a conservative universalist could not sign this statement of faith?

I appreciate any help you can give here, this has been a long process and one which involves a great deal of heartache and pain.

Thank you in advance,

Carol

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Tue, 04/13/2010 - 4:16pm
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Pastork
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"Eternal" to "Everlasting"

Actually, the English word eternal certainly doesn't mean a "set period or age," so there shouldn't be a problem. But I suppose you could, perhaps, just change the word eternal to the synonym everlasting in order to avoid the possible deceptive signing by one of the "universalists" you are referring to.

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Tue, 04/13/2010 - 7:20pm
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Carol K
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PastorK, Thank you. Yes, we

PastorK,

Thank you. Yes, we already did discuss that 'eternal' in the English means what it does, but I like your suggestion of everlasting!

Again, thank you!

Respectfully,

Carol

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Tue, 04/13/2010 - 9:08pm
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Larry
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Quote: We believe in the
Quote:

We believe in the bodily resurrection of all humanity a, the saved to eternal life b, and the
unsaved to eternal conscious punishment c.

a) John 5:29
b) John 3:16; Romans 6:23
c) Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 25:30, 41, 46; Revelation 20:15

I am fairly confident that the universalist we know in this group would be able to, in good conscience sign this statement of faith.

How could "eternal conscious torment" be affirmed by even a "conservative universalist" (I'm not even sure what the means)?

In the Bible, eternal hell is contrasted with eternal life, as it is in this doctrinal statement. If he believes that eternal death or punishment ends at some point, then he must also believe that eternal life ends at some point.

It doesn't seem to me that it hinges on using "eternal" vs. "everlasting" but rather on insisting that words have meaning that cannot be denied without destroying the possibility of communication. If "eternal" in both statements means the same thing, the a "conservative universalist" cannot affirm it; if "eternal" doesn't mean the same thing in both statements, then another word should be chosen.

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Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:01pm
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Carol K
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I have just used the term

I have just used the term 'conservative universalist' because I wasn't sure what else to call them. They believe in a literal hell, unlike any universalist I have ever met. BUT, they believe that hell is not eternal, they believe it's for 'an age' or a set period of time. They believe that the Greek word for Eternal was not always translated correctly.

Your point is one that has been argued with them, and getting a straight answer was very difficult. I am not sure that changing the word from 'eternal' to 'everlasting' will help, but I am hoping it might. This has been so difficult.

I searched out the archives of this forum and have not found substantial information on this subject.

Ideally, I would love to discuss this topic in length, but I don't know if anyone has time or energy to put into this. Perhaps I might put forth a few of the topics for discussion and see where it goes.

Thank you for your comments. I know this seems so 'off' and 'odd', and it is, but it's an issue that needs addressing as I am becoming aware there are more and more of these 'closet conservative universalists' along with many, many Christian sympathizers, which grieves me, deeply! They call themselves Christians, they believe in the Bible, BUT they believe that the atoning blood of Jesus Christ extends beyond the grave.

Carol

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Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:39pm
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Pastork
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You Are Describing Annihilationism

Carol,

It sounds like you have run into a group who holds to Annihilationism, otherwise known as Conditional Immortality. If you want a good book in helping to understand the view and how to respond to it, perhaps the best one I have come across is Hell On Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment, by Robert Peterson. You can find it here:

http://www.amazon.com/Hell-Trial-Case-Eternal-Punishment/dp/0875523722

Hope this helps.

Keith

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Wed, 04/14/2010 - 11:57pm
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Carol K
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PastorK, I do not believe

PastorK,

I do not believe it's annihilation, unless I don't understand the full meaning of annihilation. They believe in hell, in that those who did not come to faith on this side of the grave, will at a later age, which I believe is at Christ's return, will be made free and go to heaven to live for an eternal period of time......possibly meaning an end to that age possibly not, I do not think they all have the same conclusion on what happens after that. The book you have mentioned, does it deal with this type of belief structure? I will take a look on line and see what I can find out about that book.

Again, thank you for your time and assistance, I greatly appreciate it.

Carol

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Thu, 04/15/2010 - 3:05am
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ChrisC
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it's an interesting topic

it's an interesting topic. i was looking for more information about what you mean by "conservative universalism" and how it might be different from "normal" varieties of universalism. (i think you're right that it's different from annihilationism, but maybe peterson's book also answers some questions about universalism)

i also don't see how changing "eternal" to "everlasting" will make any difference. both words are used by different bible translations for the same idea. just pick whichever word is used more often in the translations your group is using.

as i was poking around in this topic, i came across an article that may be helpful:

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Thu, 04/15/2010 - 9:04am
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Carol K
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Mr. Capoccia, I am not all

Mr. Capoccia,

I am not all the way through that article just yet, only about 1/3 through, but so far, that's exactly stating what we have come up against. I look forward to reading the rest of the article later this morning.

I never knew this type of universalism existed. This has so complicated relationships in this particular group, causing such grief. I'm not sure if changing the word from "eternal" to "everlasting" will help. I do know that the word "eternal" and the controversy surrounding it has been primarily on that word, "eternal", I don't believe everlasting has even come up.

In the article above, one difference I see from the group here, and one of the stands pointed out in that article is that these people we know do not believe Satan will be restored. They believe the death of Jesus Christ was for humans, restoring His people back to Him.

Once I finish the article, I will ask one or two other questions from what we have run up against with all this, which will show why this has become so damaging.

Thank you again, I look forward to reading....the rest of the story. Smile

Respectfully,

Carol

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Thu, 04/15/2010 - 12:42pm
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Pastork
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You're Right Carol

You are correct, Carol. That is not Annihilationism, although Annihilationists do believe in hell (even if those who go there will cease to exist after a period of punishment).

The position you have described is indeed a kind of universalism, and, no, I don't think Peterson's book deals with it directly. Don't know how I missed that part. I think it came from having read different parts of the thread at different times and having forgotten some of the facts.

The position you have described actually has more similarity to Origen's view called Apocatastasis, which held that hell will be a temporary place and that everyone will eventually be led to repent and embrace God (even Satan and the fallen angels, but it doesn't sound like the guys you are talking about would go that far). At any rate, it is a heresy that I am glad you all are confronting.

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Thu, 04/15/2010 - 1:18pm
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Carol K
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Thank you

Thank you again, Mr. Capoccia!

I made it through the article and it's a good one. Smile I would say that the Universalist we have met take this one step further than was mentioned in the article. They believe in evangelism, so that people on this side of the grave can have a relationship with Jesus Christ. They do not believe in 'doing as your please' since you will get a 'get out of hell free card', so to speak, they believe in the full richness of having a relationship with Jesus Christ on this side of the grave....but if you don't, then after a period of time in hell, then you will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and then you will be able to get out of hell. That's it in a nut shell.

To All, any other thoughts on 'eternal' and words to put in there are appreciated.

Respectfully,

Carol

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Thu, 04/15/2010 - 1:25pm
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Carol K
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PastorK, I must have been

PastorK,

I must have been posting while you were posting. Thank you!

I have called this heresy, but it has not been received very well. Wink I am trying to avoid further use of that word, for the moment, so that I can hopefully bring to light, the Scriptural errors of this thinking. I am grateful that more of the young adults and parents are starting to see this, but it's very hard when the people who are holding to this belief are gracious, kind, loving and wonderful people.

I'll refrain from purchasing that book for now, but might put it on my list to purchase for future reading. At the moment, I am trying to address the immediate.

I have come to this board several times to search out the archives from the past few years and I have been unsuccessful in finding material to address this specifically.

Thank you again.

Respectfully,

Carol

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