The Relative Proximity of Heaven and Earth

By Peter Van Kleeck Jr. Thu, 01/26/2012 - 2:16pm
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Peter Van Kleeck Jr.
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The focus of this topic is to discuss this question: Is ordered matter the substance that separates Heaven and Earth?

First there is the use of matter to separate the heavenly and the earthly. In Exodus 33:22 the Scriptures say that God hid Moses in the cleft of a rock before God caused His glory to pass by. In Exodus 26:33 the Scriptures say that a curtain was to be hung between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies. Furthermore the cloud of incense stood between the high priest and the mercy seat on the Day of Atonement.

Second there is the apparent ease of transition between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm. There is John who was in the Spirit on the Lord's day (Rev. 1:12), who when he turned around to see the one speaking to him was immediately in Heaven. Then there is the "speed" with which Jesus Christ appears to His disciples in the upper room (Luke 24:36) though the door be locked and the "speed" with which Jesus Christ disappears from the two on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:31).

Are Heaven and Earth so close in proximity that all it takes is to step through the material veil of this physical world or to step out from the cleft of our concrete world and in so doing be in that place we call Heaven? Is Heaven only a step away? What if the matter before our very eyes were to be rent as a cloth, would Heaven be there shining through?

Other Questions:

What is the Christological implications seeing that the heavenly took on the ordered matter of flesh?

What are the implications for the doctrine of Immensity/Omnipresence?

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Thu, 01/26/2012 - 3:36pm
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dcbii
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"Order"

I'm not sure what you intend by "ordered matter," but I would assume the earth in its perfect state before the fall would have been considered "ordered," and yet it was still separate from heaven. So I'm guessing you mean something beyond that.

Further, I don't know that we know, for example, whether the physical body of Christ, who was of course perfect and sinless, was substantially the same as the body Adam had pre-fall, or was more like post-fall flesh (minus the sin-nature, of course). Given Jesus was touched by the feelings of our infirmities and was tempted in all points as we are, I would tend to lean toward the latter.

Given we have an omnipotent God, I'm not sure the evidence you quote helps us either way. It would be just as easy for God to either transfer John to heaven, or have it appear before him, whether it was in another "dimension" close by, or completely outside the known universe, so the "suddenness" with which these events occurred wouldn't really be evidence of close proximity.

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Fri, 01/27/2012 - 10:50am
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JD Miller
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Fascinating discussion

When I was in Bible college, one of the professors was emphasizing how in the kingdom, we will not go to heaven, but to earth. I believe he thought the same about the eternal state, but it has been a while, so I do not want to put words in his mouth. He pointed out that when we speak of spending an eternity in heaven we may not be accurate, because instead we will be on earth. I suggested that perhaps the confusion comes because we are looking at heaven and earth as separate physical locations when we should be looking at them as separate planes beyond the physical realm. This is so beyond our way of thinking that it is even hard to articulate, but when you look at the first few verses of Revelation 21, you see both a new heaven and a new earth and then you see the new Jerusalem coming out of heaven. Is it possible that the new Jerusalem will be accessible to those on earth because the veil between heaven and earth will then be lifted? (please understand that these are just amateur musings on my part and that I have little to base my theory on at this point). Regardless I know that God has more planned for us than we could ever imagine.

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Fri, 01/27/2012 - 11:49am
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Peter Van Kleeck Jr.
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Prime vs. Ordered

Brother dcbii, "Ordered" is to distinguish from potential or unformed matter commonly refered to as prime matter. The closest example of prime matter in the Scriptures is the form and void that the universe was as the Spirit moved across the face of it.

As a point of discussion, Christ taking on flesh was in one respect a shielding of the divine from the senses of the this-worldy, so that He appeared to be like any other Jewish man until the mount of transfiguration. Jesus Christ was always the bright and shinning Son of God but it was His flesh which hid that spendor from the senses of the disciples, Pharisees, etc. In that sense Jesus Christ is the perfect example of the proximity of Heaven to Earth and the power of matter to separate our senses from the divine.

As for the immensity of God, God is present to all spaces yet the sinner is not destroyed by the holiness of God. Since I was a child I remember preachers saying that God is a consuming fire as a result if a lost soul were to stand before God the holiness of God would torment that sinful soul. The question is, if God is present to this space and seeing that He does not change why is not the full splendor and brightness of His glory and holiness where God is, in my living room? God cannot cease to be the brightness of Himself, still God is present to all spaces. I am offering an idea to reconcile the two given certain texts of Scripture.

Brother Miller, that is very interesting what your professor said. There is no doubt the Lord has more in store for us than we can imagine.

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Wed, 02/01/2012 - 10:59pm
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Brent Marshall
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Peter Van Kleeck Jr.
Peter Van Kleeck Jr. wrote:

Brother dcbii, "Ordered" is to distinguish from potential or unformed matter commonly refered to as prime matter. The closest example of prime matter in the Scriptures is the form and void that the universe was as the Spirit moved across the face of it.

Given that, is there anything but ordered matter in our universe?
Put differently, how does adding "ordered" to the original question affect that thrust of the question?

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"As the quantity of communication increases, so does its quality decline; and the most important sign of this is that it is not longer acceptable to say so." —Roger Scruton

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Thu, 02/02/2012 - 12:17pm
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Peter Van Kleeck Jr.
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2 Ways

I believe it affects the thrust of the question in 2 ways: 1.) Some may argue that prime matter exists either now or in the future (New Heaven and Earth), as a result the question is more focused 2.) Specifically refering to the ordering of prime matter in the context of the discussion would demonstrate that the very act and moment of creation were a separating of our two worlds - Heaven and Earth - in the ordering of that matter. In other words, the dividing of Heaven and Earth was "very good".

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