Does this text speak of his past (pre-conversion) experience? Or of his struggles in sanctification?
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Does Romans 7:14-25 describe Paul's experience before or after his conversion?
Sun, 06/07/2009 - 1:14pm
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Perhaps both. His past
Perhaps both. His past struggles were hopeless because he did not know Christ, and his present struggles are hopeful because he knows Christ.
Sun, 06/07/2009 - 1:42pm
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I take this passage to be
I take this passage to be post-conversion. Of course, there are many orthodox theologians who disagree, Martyn Lloyd-Jones being one. John Piper has a helpful sermon in which he presents the 4 main views and then gives his arguments for the post-conversion view.
Sun, 06/07/2009 - 6:54pm
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Quote:
13 Did that which is
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
I would argue for the post conversion view.
Sun, 06/07/2009 - 9:48pm
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Post Conversion In the Flow of Paul's Writing
Romans 5 -- Justification
Romans 6 -- Sanctification
Romans 7 -- Struggle with the flesh in the Sanctification Process
Romans 8 -- Glorification
Really, then, the pre-conversion view of Romans 7 makes little sense when viewed in light of the overall flow of Paul's writing in Romans.
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 2:39pm
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The Christian struggle revealed.
Romans 5 -- Justification
Romans 6 -- Sanctification
Romans 7 -- Struggle with the flesh in the Sanctification Process
Romans 8 -- Glorification
Really, then, the pre-conversion view of Romans 7 makes little sense when viewed in light of the overall flow of Paul's writing in Romans.
Good! post. I agree it is the natural progression of the salvation argument. Many Reformed take it as pre conversion. They do not hold to a two nature concept of the new man so do not see this as properly describing the Christian struggle.
The Justification and regeneration of the one believing occurs instantaneously and simultaneously as a result of their union (identity) with Christ . Justification provides the immediate safe and righteous standing before God. This provides the forensic righteousness umbrella under which our present struggle with living righteously, resulting from regeneration, occurs. Romans seven gives us insight into the reality and insidious nature of that struggle with righteousness and sin. Thank God for His gracious Justification by simple faith alone. The good news is "only believe!" the continuing news is simple belief and reliance upon the promises of God brought not only Justification but regeneration. Regeneration inaugurates a new struggle with righteousness and sin that could not have occurred before. The greater news is the victory revealed in Romans 8. We have assurance of continuing in Christ and final deliverance in Him.
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 6:48pm
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None of the arguments for
None of the arguments for "post" negate "both."
The truth is that lost (but religious) people struggle and fail against sin, and so do Christians. Unless you believe that Paul did not struggle with sin as a devout Jew? Then you would have to say that he was alive w/out the Law until he got saved, and then we he became a believer sin revived. That doesn't sit well with me.
The present tense does not preclude past struggles, but may simply explain a constant condition. If I said, "I breathe with my lungs," that does not mean I just started breathing.
Although I think a general outline in Romans holds true, there are flashbacks -- even to eternity past.
From Romans, an Interpretive Outline, Steele and Curtis, pp 126-130)
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