John Piper will still be warning sinners, just not as Bethlehem Baptist pastor
During Piper’s tenure, Bethlehem grew from a one-campus congregation of nearly 300 members to a church with three Twin Cities locations, a seminary and close to 5,000 attendees.
Anyone that says things like this will always be popular, but never with the holy.
There is a real condition that has to be met for justification - namely faith in Jesus Christ. And there are real conditions that have to be met for damnation, namely, hardness and unbelief. There is a real choice that we make which unites us with Christ so that we are clothed with his righteousness and have eternal life. And there is real choice that we make - in Adam and in ourselves - which is resistant to the truth and deserving of condemnation. ("The Fame of His Name and the Freedom of Mercy")
Huw,
I am hoping your post was accidentally posted to this thread when you really meant for it to be part of a different thread, because I find it incomprehensible that you could exalt Chuck Phelps as the servant of the Almighty while declaring John Piper unpopular with the holy (not sure if that is the holy ones or the Holy One, but either way).
I did not and had no intention of ''exalting'' Fred Phelps. I pointed out that certain of his views cannot be dismissed. I did say 'all creatures'' including all men are servants of the Almighty and that fact is undeniable. As for Chuck Phelps I'm almost positive I never mentioned him.
''A 2010 survey of U.S. pastors ranked Piper among the 10 most influential living preachers -- alongside Billy Graham, Rick Warren and Max Lucado'' adding Piper to this list as ''living'' is an oxymoron. They are all preachers of the sovereignty of man in salvation, which makes them arminian, which makes them dead.
PS Please don't insinuate I'm a Calvanist, because I'm not.
''holy'' as in the meaning of the word, separate, separated by the Almighty unto his service. It is a term used in scripture; hagios that or they that have been hallowed. Some versions interchange saints and holy. I sometimes use the term holy as it might make people think and search as to what I mean. On the other hand I have others that just jump to the wrong conclusion and in ignorance jump down my throat.
I did not and had no intention of ''exalting'' Fred Phelps. I pointed out that certain of his views cannot be dismissed. I did say 'all creatures'' including all men are servants of the Almighty and that fact is undeniable. As for Chuck Phelps I'm almost positive I never mentioned him.
I know who FRED is, but you mentioned someone called Chuck. Try reading what you posted and then you might understand what I posted.
''because I find it incomprehensible that you could exalt Chuck Phelps'' your words post 3.
PS This topic is not on Phelps so lets drop it here.
They are all preachers of the sovereignty of man in salvation, which makes them arminian, which makes them dead.
PS Please don't insinuate I'm a Calvanist, because I'm not.
Well, somebody has to ask, so it might as well be me. So, how is John Piper an Arminian? I know you're not a Calvinist, Huw, but Piper is. Doesn't calling him an Arminian just confuse labels that are useful in theological discussions?
Piper writes and preaches that salvation has conditions attached and that the conditions are what man must do.
I've already given one example here's a couple more.
''When the Old Testament says that covenant-keeping is the condition for receiving God's lovingkindness, that's what it meant''. (Future Grace)
'Not everybody is saved from God's wrath just because Christ died for sinners. There is a condition we must meet in order to be saved. I want to try to show that the condition, summed up here as repentance and faith, is conversion and that conversion is nothing less than the creation of a Christian Hedonist. (Desiring God)
''Unconditional election does not mean that our final salvation or condemnation is unconditional. ("The Fame of His Name and the Freedom of Mercy"
The doctrine of grace needs to be experienced to be understood and it's evident that Piper is not in that number. He's read about it, studied it in some detail, but he gets confused in regard to the sovereign power exercised in the salvation of a sinner and the endurance of a saint. The reason for this is simple. To be saved he did something and to endure he's doing something else. I don't know what that something was or indeed is but it was a condition of his salvation and he tries to place the same condition on others.
I agree about the labels, but I see them as flags and the fact someone flies a flag allows us to discover who or what they are fighting for. The fact that someone flies the flag of Calvinism means nothing. Many do are are found to be wolves in sheeps clothing. Through their teaching they vex the souls of the children and sometimes the young men.
Blessings, H.
You know for certain that John Piper is not saved?
I could not and would not call him brother on the basis of what he teaches. I find the doctrine of the sovereignty of man in salvation to be obscene. I have seen the results of this doctrine and I have witnessed the end of the doctrine.
In case I'm accused of being frightened to answer your question, the answer is no he is not saved.
Where are the SI moderators today?
Thanks for your honesty in condemning a brother to the flames.
Did you read the works of Piper where you got the above sentences, or find them somewhere?
Please tell me what is wrong with this statement:
"There was only one hope for me --- that the infinite wisdom of God might make way for the love of God to satisfy the wrath of God so that I might become a son of God. This is exactly what happened, and I will sing of it forever."
or this one:
"If life from the dead is given to you by grace, and freedom from Satan is given to you by grace, and the hope of eternal kindness is given to you by grace, then there is only one possible way to receive these things—through FAITH."
Is faith the condition you regard as "the sovereignty of man"?
With the greatest respect I have not condemned him to flames. That is a predetermined choice of the Almighty if He so pleases. What I have done is answered your question and if you had any grace you would not have asked the question.
Do I condemn his teaching? yes
Do I know that this teaching is that of a blind guide ? yes
Do I know that he will never be saved? no, of course not.
We are told not to believe every spirit, but to test them (teaching). Messiah complimented the eclessia at Ephesus for testing the apostles that came and found them to be liars. Simon Magus was found to be false.
I do nothing that is not expected of me and do so diligently.
Well, Huw, you are quite the fellow!
Now, why, in your grace-filled wisdom, did you not answer my questions?
One more try:
1)Have you read the complete works from which you derived your Piper quotes?
And,
2) What do you think of his other quotes I referenced? Do you have problems with them as they are?
3) Is faith the condition you regard as "the sovereignty of man"?
Huw is another one of a long-line of SI posters who, after a series of unbiblical and, at times, nonsensical postings, have been asked either publicly or privately about his church attendance/membership and has revealed that he has no church connection. It's happened too many times for me to consider it coincidental.
How can it be so if Messiah adds to the eclessia daily such as should be saved? are you suggesting he fails to do this when He saves? Or do see the eclessia as a building, built with the hands of men, ruled by men and for the glory of man?
When I was saved, at home and on my own, the effects of my salvation were seen and felt by all that knew me. The change was so great that my own father didn't recognize me. People who knew me were approaching me to find out what had happened. The people in the club I frequented took out a book, of bets, as to how long it would last. All bets are now off. And finally a man who never attended school after the age of 13 years can now sit here and type this message.
I did not seek nor ask for salvation. If I had been offered salvation I would have answered, tomorrow maybe, but not today. I had no part in anything with regard my justification, conversion, repentance or new birth, but I say say as Job did, I know my redeemer lives. amen.
And your testimony is....?
Huw, I'm not questioning your salvation. I am questioning your obedience to the clear commands of Scripture to gather regularly with other believers who have organized themselves in a NT church where the Word is preached, the ordinances are observed, and NT officers oversee and serve.
I could not and would not call him brother on the basis of what he teaches. I find the doctrine of the sovereignty of man in salvation to be obscene. I have seen the results of this doctrine and I have witnessed the end of the doctrine.
In case I'm accused of being frightened to answer your question, the answer is no he is not saved.
So you are saying that Piper teaches Lordship salvation? Or is it something else that you object to?
1)Have you read the complete works from which you derived your Piper quotes? =====`
No. About 6 or 7 years ago a friend of mine attended a rally in Ireland where piper was speaking. She, who is not converted, came back raving about him I had to inform her he was a false teacher. I did some research to confirm to her what and why I'd said that. I was upset by some of his teachings and wrote to him. I received a reply from someone saying he didn't want to reply to me.
I have delved into some of his teachings since then and did keep notes as I always do. I changed from Windows to iMac last year and the notes went in the fire with my laptop. When I need to confirm anything I look it up on line as I'm sure most people do. My mind was made up about Pipers teaching when I saw a tape of him preaching about 11 years ago. When my friend brought him back under my radar I was prompted to confirm my suspicions about him. What I gather from the net has no effect other than to confirm that which I am already aware of.
2) What do you think of his other quotes I referenced? Do you have problems with them as they are?
I have read more of his quotes than I care to remember and going over more of them is not on my agenda. If he is ever converted I shall relish reading the effects of that salvation.
3) Is faith the condition you regard as "the sovereignty of man"?``====depends on what you understand in regard to faith and from where you believe 'faith' comes from. Where you place by, of or through in relation to 'faith'.
I sat under ''not neglecting to meet together'', for some time after my salvation. Once I heard the words ''come out from them'', I was obedient to that call.
Please don't assume to know what the Almighty is working in my life as you haven't got a clue.
And your testimony?
So let me get this right. You have a problem with my judging a teaching and by default the person behind the teaching, but see nothing wrong in judging me?
Charming.
I have met a few people like Huw over the years. They had a dramatic experience they consider REAL conversion, and measure everyone else by their experience. Sadly, they cannot be reasoned with and dislike learning from others, They do not respect the wisdom or opinions of others who have known the Lord longer and are more knowledgeable of the Word and how to handle it. No one compares with them.
But...they love to make their voice heard. The Internet makes that easy. Huw's posts are a kind of long tease so we will engage with him, and he can share that REAL experience he had that others lack. Engagement of any kind validates in his mind that supreme measure of grace he was given. That experience also allows him to have such mastery over the Bible that none can challenge him or bring him more enlightenment than he has received from the Almighty.
The BIG QUESTION is: how should SharperIron handle folks like this? That's a discussion worth having.
I feel the need to qualify my heeding the call to come out from amongst them.
I had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of darkness into the light. There was no possible chance of my being, in anyway, obedient.
My ‘coming out from amongst them’ was similar. I had listened for over two years to people who had been going to church all their lives. I had been obedient to all they told me to do and yet they knew as well as I did that there was something different going on in me, than was going on in them.
I felt the calling to come out, but wouldn’t heed the call because of the teaching you mentioned. Week after week, after week we heard the same thing. If you leave us and go somewhere else you’ll be a ‘’spiritual gypsy’’. I was blessed because I went to Bible College (Don’t ask, please don’t ask.) and was doing the rounds of the denominations. I was a popular speaker because of my experience, which most people called a road to Damascus experience.
I used to attend every meeting that I could get to. Every day for a year I walked 4 miles to college and 4 miles home. I did so with a joy in my heart that men would die for. I relished and loved every moment on my way there. Every evening I wept for the 4 miles at the things I been hearing. My tears were mixed with prayer and the college closed down shortly after.
There came a point in time about two and a half years into my walk when I was listening to a sermon. The sermon was about acceptance and how it was the responsibility of each and everyone of the congregation to accept whomsoever came through the door. He went on and on and on, but as he did I realized he was a liar and wouldn’t be prepared to practice what he was preaching.
When the sermon ended I approached him and said, ‘’I’d like to become a member of this church’’ and he said I wasn’t wanted there.
This was all the prompting I needed. A week later at 10:30am (I kid you not) I was cycling a 40-mile path and at precisely that time, which is the time services start in Wales. I began to hear or should I say feel and experience scripture. This then became a daily occurrence and I spend my time hearing, not in the physical sense, sermons, doctrine or whatever you choose to call it.
The one thing that people found odd about me when I went to their meetings is the fact I would recall sermons from weeks or months before. I can now recall sermons I heard 12 years ago.
When I stopped listening to the doctrines of men I was taken to the verses of Peter to make sure your election and calling.
I was asked in my inner self if what I was exercising (faith) was the same as that which Noah, Abraham and the prophets had lived by. Was it the real thing? Was the same principle by which Paul was saved and lived by?
I spent 3 years questioning my thoughts, words and deeds and asking is this faith, belief or trust and what the relationship was between each of the words.
At the end of three years I received my answers and have lived by that pure, unmistakable and steadfast principle through which we are saved and live by.
The way out from them was prepared for me from the foundation of the world and if that’s a delusion then I’m contented in it.
Bless you.
I have met a few people like Huw over the years. They had a dramatic experience they consider REAL conversion, and measure everyone else by their experience. Sadly, they cannot be reasoned with and dislike learning from others, They do not respect the wisdom or opinions of others who have known the Lord longer and are more knowledgeable of the Word and how to handle it. No one compares with them.
But...they love to make their voice heard. The Internet makes that easy. Huw's posts are a kind of long tease so we will engage with him, and he can share that REAL experience he had that others lack. Engagement of any kind validates in his mind that supreme measure of grace he was given. That experience also allows him to have such mastery over the Bible that none can challenge him or bring him more enlightenment than he has received from the Almighty.
The BIG QUESTION is: how should SharperIron handle folks like this? That's a discussion worth having.
your first paragraph, I think, nails it because these things are apparent. the second paragraph is more speculative obviously.
the best way to deal with folks like this is to personally ignore/not respond instead of trying to police individuals board-wide. not responding is an act of wisdom sometimes.
Huw,
As many Calvinists (and Calvin himself) have taught that God gives people a faith which does not endure to salvation, and there are many examples of men who thought they were saved but defected - how do you know that you are one of the elect?
Regards,
Paul H.
in some ways I could go along with John Piper claim of 7-point Calvinism. at least I can see his rationale.
I attended Bethlehem occasionally in '82-83 and met many great folks. Piper's ministry however did not click for me at the time and I chose another church ultimately.
I thoroughly enjoy many things he has written and have benefited from his writing ministry.
the best way to deal with folks like this is to personally ignore/not respond instead of trying to police individuals board-wide. not responding is an act of wisdom sometimes.
I agree, Alex, that the best response at some point is to turn away. It's just that it takes a long time for everyone to come around to that conclusion. And I admit, the tease part of people like Huw bothers me because it seems to be a cruel use of other's time. Obviously, even in this post, Donn and Greg were trying to flag me (us), but I took the bait. I actually wanted to hear Huw's reply to my doctrinal questions, in part, because I think there's something of a doctrinal standard to be posting on SI. I don't think he adheres to it, but that's not my call.
If Huw dominates many discussions as he has here, it makes the whole board tiresome. Some folks just shouldn't be allowed to post...especially folks who have no real interest in the church.
BTW, I like Piper, too, especially his biographies of saints in the past, but he can be a little odd at times. I read his book and heard him speak in person on Future Grace, but I still don't get what he is driving at with that one. It may be my thick skull, but I think he sometimes runs with fresh insights that don't amount to much!
There is a matter that Peter brings up and that is to make sure your election and calling. I've done that and have the blessedness of the assurance of trust. This was by grace and through trust and not by any works of my own.
There are many things taught in the denominations that lead people away from fulfilling this vital task and in missing this people begin to wander from doctrine to doctrine and from church to church. They think they are saved, but are never sure.
The effects of trust as described in Hebrews is best translated as, ''now trust is the substance of our hoping, the proof of those not seen''.
Substance in this verse is an absolute dream of a word. It gives the underpinning strength or fills and gives substance to the blessed hopes we have. It is not empty or carnal hope. The word evidence could mean either true or false, because until proven evidence is not accepted. Proof on the other had is not questionable.
I must admit that the words of James ''deem it all cheer when you fall into divers testings'' was a very, very difficult verse for me, because when I was tested it was far from cheerful and I would often ask people what is this guy talking about?
Then realization was given me that when James had written this he had done so as a man looking back at what had happened and felt the effects it had upon him. ''Knowing that the proofing of your trust worketh endurance'' and so on...Endurance in replace of patience makes a lot more sense than patience. This is a study I'm continuing.
When I began to feel the same way as James and the effects he felt were mine also. I realized others had walked this path and left way marks.
Every blessing, H.
All you've answered here is in effect, "I know I've done that so I'm one of the elect."
But I asked you how you know you are one of the elect? You cannot make your calling and election sure if you are not called and not elect. Surely you are not relying on your feelings in this matter? How do you know you are not one of those given a false faith (trust)? How do you know Christ died for you?
On the day of His coming I'll be known of Him, because I am known by Him.
If as you think I'm wrong or mistaken then I'll still be up on the deal, because since 17th July 1999 at 10:30am my life has been so enjoyable you cannot imagine. I have been prepared to give a reason for the hope I have, but you don't seem to recognize anything I say. I know my trust is true and I know this for certain;
Wherever I am, whatever I think, say or do. I am, at every moment, at the center of the will of the Eternal Almighty for my life.
Whether you accept that or not is of no consequence to me, but it might have eternal consequences for you.
When I used to visit the denominations I'd often get women coming up to me a waging a finger saying, 'it's not the way you start, it's the way you finish that counts''. Which is a load of nonsense, because He that has started or begun a good work in you, will see it through to completion.
I was standing washing dishes 20 minutes ago in the exact same spot as I was standing when heaven came down and glory filled my soul. I know the work was begun and I trust He is able to complete that work.
Halalu Yah.
What I will say is that I have been grateful for John's impact both within evangelical and fundamentalist individuals and ministries. I pray for God's rich grace on our brother's new context of ministry. I pray that all of us here who are faithfully serving within the context of local church ministry will be as faithful as John has been over the decades.
Straight Ahead and Blessed New Year!
jt
ps - Hey friends, let's give the mod's time to deal with certain individuals. I was a Mod sometime ago here at SI. It's a daunting task. Just zip them a note and know that they will work behind the scene to make sure all is where it needs to be. If you read something that seems "not right" please assume the best from the leadership here at SI - they are sharp people taking one step at a time. Also....let's try to use restraint when interacting with someone who has stepped out of bounds. Usually a private message is a good starting place. Then I'd go to the mod's. I would only call a brother or sister out in public if you've already done step one and two......but that's just me and I haven't always lived by that rule......but I'm trying to live by that rule.
Keep Smiling!
Huw, you opine:
A rank Arminian could have said the same thing.
So you know you are one of the elect because you know it? And you know it because your life is enjoyable and you can quote a hymn written by someone who didn't share your views?
Listen. Whether you care about what I think about your opinion of your elect status is wholly as beside the point as your opinion about John Piper's or anyone else's salvation. You were asked an important theological question and you have dodged it with a tautology.
You say further,
What if He has no intention of completing the work because you are not elect?
I have asked you twice how you know your "trust" is the real thing which leads to salvation. I might add here that the "trust" is either self-generated - in which case you are lost (according to you that is), and self-deceived; or, the "trust" comes from God (which you would agree with I think), in which case you still have to answer whether it is enduring faith or the false faith which Calvin and the Puritans often taught about. Your feelings decide absolutely nothing! Knowledge does not equate to how we feel about a thing. Truth is not decided by what comes over us when we are washing the dishes. So again, how do you know you are one of the elect for whom Christ died?
I know who FRED is, but you mentioned someone called Chuck. Try reading what you posted and then you might understand what I posted.
''because I find it incomprehensible that you could exalt Chuck Phelps'' your words post 3.
PS This topic is not on Phelps so lets drop it here.
If I gave the impression of supporting the man then I apologize. What I meant was some of the things he says or teaches cannot be denied or dismissed.
As I said this thread is not about Fred Phelps so why do you persist?
You blog as Dr Reluctant and in view of your refusal to believe me I think the Eternal has given you the correct tag.
I wish you well and look forward to meeting you in eternity.
Huw,
With you everything is opinion!
Here's another opinion.
If as you say that I am deluded and have no grace, nor trust nor life eternal. I can say with a sincere heart that I don't deserve forgiveness. That I have no right to ask for it and if it was stripped from me and given to another it would be my just punishment. I would suffer no disappointment, because I don't deserve it.
Blessings, H.
Huw,
Stop putting words into my mouth. Did I say you were deluded or had no grace? I said nothing of the sort! You need to try to keep your opinions and inferences out of theological discourse. Some folks promote their opinions to the status of Divine disclosure. What matters is that our beliefs cohere with God's words; that we have a biblical reason for what we espouse. You think Piper is lost. He believes salvation is solely by God's grace. So did Arminius. So do you. Why are they lost (I presume Arminius is a lost cause?) and you are saved?
I have followed this bizarre discussion and honestly tried to understand what you're saying. I am at a loss. I doubt there is any Christian in the world who agrees in every possible respect with somebody else's theology. Regardless, there is pretty general agreement about which theological viewpoints belong under the umbrella of "orthodoxy." Both Arminianism and Reformed theology are orthodox. I see no warrant for claiming Piper is not saved. I see even less warrant for claiming Piper is an Arminian (Post #4). He is very definitely a Calvinist!
To return to the topic at hand - I have not read one of Piper's works yet. He is certainly a very polarizing figure (as this weird thread has demonstrated!) but he is a Godly man who has used his talents and abilities for the Lord for quite a while. I wish him the best as he slows down to focus on writing.
By questioning my salvation you in fact deny that I have grace and am deluded in my giving the reason for the hope I have.
I have yet to read a single scriptural word in your Divine discourse.
My trust is in line with the revelation given in the will of The Eternal Father and I have direct access to the benefits promised under the terms of His will.
I know Piper is lost and appears as an angel of light. If you type 'Piper heresy' into any search engine you'll discover there are many who have the same opinion. They did not have an influence on what I know.
He does not believe salvation is by grace alone. He believes there are ''conditions'' that must be met.
In fact your statement that salvation is by grace alone is ridiculous and insufficient. It is BY grace THROUGH trust, by grace, in and of itself, does not apply salvation. And while we are on the subject it's not our trust and is not found in us. It is the trust of Messiah as exercised on the stake and used on our behalf before being applied to us directly. Once this has occurred and we are justified in the court of heaven the Holy Spirit applies or supplies trust to us.
When I awoke this morning my first thought as often is, ' Thou art with me'. In answer to your question yesterday as to how I know I'm saved, I hate sin and love justness which is the direct opposite to how I was. If a man hates sin he is in direct opposition to Satan and that is scriptural proof.
A lot of men love the doctrines of Calvin, but their carnal hearts and minds cannot accept the fact that all that comes to pass was predetermined. That man is a worm. And this is what riles the carnal thinking, that not only did the Eternal and Almighty predetermine and elect according to grace, He also predetermined a people unto damnation according to justice and vengeful wrath and that the members of a mans household could well be in the number of the latter.
There was a guy on the BBC website who is a militant atheist. He used to be a preaching, evangelizing, tract giving, Bible bashing, enthusiastic Calvinist. The problem occurred for him was the fact his wife was not producing the same enthusiasm and so he walked away from his profession. He now has a website for people who have walked away from Christianity. He was able to profess the doctrines of sovereign grace, but unable to submit to them and proclaim, Just art thou, ''O Yah Veh and straight are thy judgments''. There comes an evil day when what a man has built is tested and believe you me I have had my evil day.
Paul, I know that some people think that salvation comes about by evolution over a long period of time, but scripture teaches of a new creation. Just as we trust the first creation was immediate, we also understand that the new creation is immediate. So can you please tell me on what day you were brought from darkness into light, when you passed from death to life. The day that all things became new and everything before your natural eyes was different. That moment when trust first sprang up in your will and you began a conversation with the Eternal Almighty. Where were you when this happened?
I have followed this bizarre discussion and honestly tried to understand what you're saying. I am at a loss.
The scriptures teach us that, 'the soulical human receiveth not those of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually judged''. Do you understand this?
PS please don't be offended by my question Tyler.
‘’There is a real condition that has to be met for justification - namely faith in Jesus Christ’’. (Pipers words as posted in post 2.)
He has failed to understand that the trust applied for our justification is the trust ‘’of’’ Messiah. This trust, in the Father, was exercised and seen at Calvary. Selah
This same trust is brought to the bench of justice in the court of heaven and provides proof that the sinner has been justified by the death, blood and resurrection of the Messiah. The proof is accepted, the sinner is justified and the sinner receives the benefits accorded to him in the will and testament of the testator. Selah
Once trust is supplied to the sinner. Confession in the mouth and trust in the heart become a reality that can never be denied. Romans 10:9 is not a condition for salvation it is the effect of justification and in exercise of trust gives us the promise.
''Trust in'' and ''trust of'' are obviously different and are well worth a study. For instance is ‘’trust in’’ directional or positional in the sense I am in Messiah and therefore I trust as being in Him as he is in me.
Trust of is possessive and has an effect as to whom the trust belongs to and what praise He deserves in using that trust for our justification and what glory there is for Him in supplying that trust to a wretch like me.
Anyone using an NIV will have difficulty in checking what I have said is according to scripture. I wondered why you people didn’t recognize what I was saying. The reference for ‘trust in/of’’ ( or faith of/in) can be found in Galatians 2:16 KJV please compare with NIV.
There should be nothing in what I have said that gives a glimmer of glory to man.
‘’And there are real conditions that have to be met for damnation, namely, hardness and unbelief. (First line of the statement of Piper in post 2.)’’
This is as disgusting a line of carnal reasoning I have ever read. In it Piper denies the sovereignty of the Almighty in reprobation. The effects of reprobation are a hard heart and lack of trust, but those are the effects of reprobation, not the cause as Piper says.
The reprobate are ‘’atheist’’ which means they are ‘without Theos’’ without God or without Elohim.
Being ‘without’ they have the same hard hearts they were born with ( Ezekiel) and lack trust because trust is the inheritance of the just by which we live ( Habuk, Rmns, Heb)
''Atheist'' is used in scripture once and by Paul. You'll find it in Ephesians.
Nobody is born with trust. Therefore it is necessary to receive it or be supplied with trust. That is the office of the Holy Spirit that is why it is written; ''through trust; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:'' A gift is both supplied ( by the Almighty) and received ( by the recipient). I would strongly suggest that you do a study on ''gift'' especially as numbered by Strong's as 5486. The word translated as gift is better transliterated and as 'charisma' which means spiritual enduement.
The Holy Spirit taking up residence in the justified sinner becomes our supplier of power, the supplier of all our needs, the sanctifier of our hearts.
Chip, where you would use the word faith, I use trust.
edit: added justified to sinner.
On what basis or by what means are some supplied with trust while others are not?
Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians explains that it is by the predetermination of the Father. That the Father has selected those that would be called sons or as some translations have it, to adoption. Those that received Messiah, to them is given power to become the sons of God ( Elohim) and which are born, not of blood, nor of the will of man, but of Elohim. (John)
In short the recipients are the heirs, the elect according to the good pleasure of the will of the Almighty.
In a study of the word judgment I became aware that judgment is the passing of a sentence. It can either be to damnation or salvation. With this knowledge the verse in Romans becomes illuminated. '' O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his ''judgments'', and his ways past finding out''.
We know that the Eternal chooses, but the why is unsearchable.
I know that the Eternal searches the depths of our hearts and that our thoughts are known to Him before they enter our heads and so He knows the sincerity of all that we think, say and do. With that in mind I have something to say that I hope does not embarrass you Chip. My hope and prayer is that one day we shall meet and when we do it will be with tears of joy and love in the Holy Spirit.
Blessings, H.
@HUW: I find it outrageous that you would suggest John Piper isn't saved.
I sincerely hope that your outrage turns to curiosity and that you do some research into this matter. You owe yourself that much, because he is not an angel of light.
The subject is vitally important, the subject is a matter of life or death, because blind guides lead those that follow them into the pit. The easiest and most simple way of detecting blind guide is this. Do they glorify mankind in their doctrine, do they insist on conditions for salvation? or is mankind totally excluded to the glory, honor and praise of the Eternal Father, the Eternal Son and the blessed Spirit of Grace.
We are aware that Messiah died for a chosen people. The names of who can be found in the Lambs Book of Life. The people are presented to the Eternal Son by the Father. There is a condition here. The people have been sold as slaves to sin and must be bought back. A price must be paid. The Son pays the price by becoming the propitiation for the sins of the promised people.
That the Son would become flesh and in that flesh would become sin so that the Father could and would punish sin in Him.
Therefore there is a promise and that promise was made by the Father to the Son. This means the Eternal Father must keep His promise to His Son. This in turn means He will keep His promise and exert His power to perform His perfect will in that promise.
If a man were able to resist his calling and election it would mean the will of man is greater than the will of the Eternal Father. And that the Eternal Father could not keep the promise He made to His Son. (I despise the thought).
Psalm 2:8, Rmns 7:14, 6:20. John 8:34, 2 Corinthians 5:20, Rev 21:27, 1 Peter 2:9, Rms 9:19.
The references are not in order, because I wrote the post and then went looking for references. I don't normally include references as I expect people to recognize Scripture when they read or hear it. But, there is a danger that those that read my post are not using the same translations.
Those that are called to the service in Messiah will never be able to walk away. Jeremiah was so fed up of his mission to the people that wished he was a motel keeper!
I say this with utter shame, but as a babe in Messiah I acted as a babe. Complete with screams, hungers and everything else a babe does. As an infant I acted as an infant ( to much shame to admit). I have turned my back, with a promise never again to speak of His mercy, grace and truth. To no avail I'm glad to say. Eternal life means just that.
Blessings, H.
Anyone using an NIV will have difficulty in checking what I have said is according to scripture. I wondered why you people didn’t recognize what I was saying.
I think we have recognized what you are saying here. We just reject it as being incompatible with what God says in his word.
I think you are confusing the conditions for election (unconditional) with the conditions for justification and salvation (which the Bible plainly declares to be faith in Christ). Your comments about "trust in/trust of" are a legitimate point of discussion, but it is not determinative as you suggest; the answer to the question is contextual. It is not disputed that Christ was faithful to God, and that his faithfulness is necessary for salvation. It should not be disputed that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. Salvation is given to those who believe. It is not given to those who do not believe. To say such is to say what Christ himself said, and we should not complain about repeating Christ's words. It does not glorify man at all to acknowledge that man can do nothing. He can only trust what someone else did for him.
Your position on reprobation creates an unjust God who condemns people without cause. God does not condemn people who aren't sinners. In Scripture, the cause of condemnation is unbelief.
You have abandoned the church and misused Scripture ("come out from among them") to justify it. It may be true that "that there was something different going on in me, than was going on in them," but that's not necessarily a good thing. That could be a warning to you. One of the biblical roles of a church is accountability both in life and doctrine. In other words, a church serves to keep from believing wrongly and from living wrongly. When we abandon that, we abandon one of the means that God the Spirit uses to sustain and grow us. Based on what you are saying here, it seems that you believe wrongly, failing to take all the Scriptures into account.
You are, in essence, a hyper-Calvinist in the mold of Harold Camping in some respects.
In another strange twist, you say, "But, there is a danger that those that read my post are not using the same translations." I am not even sure which translation you are using since you wrote, "'the soulical human receiveth not those of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually judged." It seems like you pick and choose a bit.
You are taking the historical positions of orthodoxy and calling them disgusting, carnal, man glorifying, etc. That does not seem to be a wise thing to do. I would urge some caution and some interaction with those who are well-versed in these things. Separating yourself from such input leads to bad things.
In which case we shall agree to differ and may the Eternal Almighty judge us.
Huw, 2 things:
1. I would never use an NIV, so that is not the basis for not agreeing with you.
2. What you are promoting seems to be eternal justification along the lines of what primitive baptists hold to.
So I ask you this question:
Are there people who die in unbelief (athiests, muslims, buddhists, hindu, etc) but will open their eyes in glory because of the faith of Jesus?
Are there people who die in unbelief (athiests, muslims, buddhists, hindu, Baptists , methodits, roman catholics, mormons, JW's sects, cults and apostate denominations etc) but will open their eyes in glory because of the faith of Jesus?
Absolutely, 100%, definitely zero oppurtunity....NO.
That you could take what I said and turn it into heresy is beyond my comprehension.
After reading this thread and many others by Huw, I advise members of this forum to not engage him except to warn him on ground of Titus 3:10, and 1 Timothy 4:7. I'm not a moderator of SI. I'm just speaking as a Christian here.
Warn him:
1. To begin faithfully attending a faithful local church and put himself under the authority and preaching of the leadership there, per Greg's point.
2. That he cease twisting words and acting divisively.
I'm aware that even this comment could be construed to be against the comment policy of SI by some by focusing on personalities rather than the topic at hand, and I'll be happy to remove it if moderators wish or they may do it themselves.
I know you mean well and bless for your misguided comments. My sincere hope and prayer is that ''the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints''.
If ever you feel like questioning my doctrine as have have done with Piper please feel free to do so. Do it in bite size chunks.
Have you ever noticed what this site is called? Why do you think that is?
Whether you accept that or not is of no consequence to me, but it might have eternal consequences for you.
That is that supposed to mean? If Paul doesn't accept your claim to be a Christian, then he's not saved either?
Well, if we turn that around on you and say that if you don't accept Piper's claim to be a Christian, then maybe it's because you're not either, no matter what you felt happen to you.
I do know what John said: 1 John 3:14 4 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
So, if you're calling someone who is most certainly a brother (John Piper) then maybe you're not a brother.
I had a guy in our church for a few years who went around comparing himself to everybody else's devotion to God. He would "anathama" just about everyone who didn't measure up to his judgment. It was a good day when he left the church.
After reading this thread and many others by Huw, I advise members of this forum to not engage him except to warn him on ground of Titus 3:10, and 1 Timothy 4:7. I'm not a moderator of SI. I'm just speaking as a Christian here.
Warn him:
1. To begin faithfully attending a faithful local church and put himself under the authority and preaching of the leadership there, per Greg's point.
2. That he cease twisting words and acting divisively.
I'm aware that even this comment could be construed to be against the comment policy of SI by some by focusing on personalities rather than the topic at hand, and I'll be happy to remove it if moderators wish or they may do it themselves.
Thank you, this should be coming from the Moderators....to say that the condition of faith is false doctrine and makes Piper an unbeliever is outrageous and anti-Gospel.
I'm sure the guy that left you all was either under law and trying to bring everyone else under law or he was a child of the Eternal. If the former is the case then well done for forcing him out. If the latter is the case then order a good supply of mill stones, because if he is harmed in anyway you all have the guilt upon you.
If you think for one moment that I make judgments at the drop of a hat and just type whatever comes into my mind then you have no idea of what a life of service means. Do you understand how difficult it is to warn people about false doctrine, false teachers and blind guides. I'll tell you what happens....go read you post.
What is it that ''a condition of faith'' means. Before you tell me I'll tell you for certain. It doesn't appear in the scriptures.
Now if you want to form a doctrine around your ''condition of faith'' you'll be a false teacher. The only reference I can find for this is, ''Loving the prophet (Mohammed) is a condition of faith''. Well done that man!
I do have a love of the brethren and when I meet them they feel that love. If anyone questions the honor, glory, praiseworthiness or true worship of the Eternal and attempt to give any part of it to humanity then I will not call that man brother. Here I stand, Elohim help me.
I am locking this thread for now until the moderators can review it top to bottom.
We may reopen it.
We're evaluating... maybe until 2014.
(Not sure how to get a thread like this sorted out... I'm tempted to say Piper's a believer and that settles it, but you know, his soul is not in my hands. 
What I will say is that it's exceedingly uncharitable to deny the salvation of someone who claims Christ and gives every evidence of believing the gospel. In general, what's the point in denying any professing believer's salvation? Before his own judge he stands or falls. Romans 14).