Minnesota Baptist Association to host Phil Johnson as conference speaker

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SharperIron's picture
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Minnesota Baptist Association to host Phil Johnson as conference speaker

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Joel Tetreau's picture
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Outstanding!

Outstanding!

Straight Ahead!

jt

ps - Congrats to Greg and the rest of the committee that came up with this. Believe me, if I were still pastoring near Backus, I'd be driving to this!

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Baptist Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Alex Guggenheim's picture
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Rather ironic that a

Rather ironic that a non-denomonationalist is selected to be the featured speaker at an event with the slogan shown at the website which says "Save the Minnesota Baptist Association".

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What is ironic about having a

What is ironic about having a man who is baptistic in his theology speak at a Baptist Association?  The Minnesota Baptist Association seems like a great group and I trust that they will have a great meeting.

 

 

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Save the Date

Alex Guggenheim wrote:
Rather ironic that a non-denomonationalist is selected to be the featured speaker at an event with the slogan shown at the website which says "Save the Minnesota Baptist Association".

Website actually says "Save the Date" 

 

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I attended a men's retreat

I attended a men's retreat this weekend at a baptist camp in PA.  The speaker was from a Bible church in FL.  His teaching actually blessed my gizzard.

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@Joe

Pastor Joe Roof wrote:

I attended a men's retreat this weekend at a baptist camp in PA.  The speaker was from a Bible church in FL.  His teaching actually blessed my gizzard.

 

You do know that human beings don't have gizzards! :) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gizzard

But chickens have 'em .... just saying 

 

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Jim wrote:Alex Guggenheim

Jim wrote:
Alex Guggenheim wrote:
Rather ironic that a non-denomonationalist is selected to be the featured speaker at an event with the slogan shown at the website which says "Save the Minnesota Baptist Association".

Website actually says "Save the Date"

Thanks Jim. With a mobile device the display at the blog was just what I quoted so I only got that part but it is clarified now with respect to that. But it does lead me to revisit the other part of the irony in Joe's response.

Pastor Joe Roof wrote:
What is ironic about having a man who is baptistic in his theology speak at a Baptist Association?  The Minnesota Baptist Association seems like a great group and I trust that they will have a great meeting.
If you don't see the irony, well you don't. I believe it is right in front of you.

But notice what you did, you misrepresented with careful nuance what I said and its emphasis to dilute its effect, thus this might explain your inability to notice the irony.

The non-denominationalist, Phil Johnson, is not merely speaking as you put it but is the featured speaker as I emphasized per the announcement, not at a Non-denominational Association but at a Baptist Association. Johnson is NOT a Baptist, deliberately.

And as to the other portion of your objection, that the MBA is a great group, I am sure they are but so are LCMS districts. But you won't have Phil Johnsons or any other non-LCMS as the featured speaker at meetings specifically identified as "LCMS". In fact, the LCMS does one of the best jobs of  modeling forms of ecclesiastical separation that even Fundamentalist ought to consider, but that is a side issue.

And the issue is not whether the group is good or whether a non-denominationalist can ever speak to a group of Baptists such as at a Bible conference. But when the meeting is specifically Baptist and even further, that of a Baptist Association, yes, it is quite ironic that a non-baptist and non-denominationalist would be the "featured" speaker.

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@Alex ,,,, explained

It's cheaper to bring "the Shepherds' Conference" (albeit but a portion of it!) to Baptists then to send Baptists to the Shepherds' Conference

 

Actually I would like to attend this and think it's a great idea! 

 

Knowing what I know about the MBA (which is somewhat limited) I'm guessing that there might be a subset of the MBA that could be ruffled by this.

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Ah, sweet Irony.....

I've always enjoyed "irony."  It has been known to cause one to pause and reconsider.  It often illuminates.  It can stimulate and challenge.  It is certainly capable of nuance and it can build discernment.  It almost always catches attention.

So if Phil Johnson brings an ironic twist to a Baptist meeting, I congratulate both him and them.

Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com

James K's picture
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Baptist is a set of beliefs.

Baptist is a set of beliefs.  That it is a denomination in some ways (SBC) doesn't change that.  Johnson embraces baptist beliefs.  I would find it strange for him to be a featured speaker at a presbo group but not at all a baptist group.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

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For perhaps the first time in my life...

...I wish I lived in Minnesota.

Missionary in Brazil, author of "The Astonishing Adventures of Missionary Max" Online at: http://www.comingstobrazil.com http://cadernoteologico.wordpress.com

Dan McGhee's picture
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Irony

Dan Burrell wrote:

I've always enjoyed "irony."  It has been known to cause one to pause and reconsider.  It often illuminates.  It can stimulate and challenge.  It is certainly capable of nuance and it can build discernment.  It almost always catches attention.

So if Phil Johnson brings an ironic twist to a Baptist meeting, I congratulate both him and them.

 

Especially thankful for the reality of "irony" today!

Alex Guggenheim's picture
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Right, Johnson is baptistic,

Right, Johnson is baptistic, but it isn't a Baptistic Association meeting now is it? Again, I point to more serious men concerning their theological convictions and identity, the LCMS.

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What's wrong?

This is a question I've asked for 30 years.

What is wrong with Baptists having associations with non-baptists?

(And can Alex answer this in under three sentences?)

 

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

James K's picture
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Ron, I am not sure where Alex

Ron, I am not sure where Alex said it was wrong.  I think it is good to follow what is actually being said.  Ironic doesn't mean wrong.  He can answer for himself though.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

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Ron Bean wrote: This is a

Ron Bean wrote:

This is a question I've asked for 30 years.

What is wrong with Baptists having associations with non-baptists?

(And can Alex answer this in under three sentences?)

 

I did answer it and you can read it in under 3 sentences but apparently you haven't.

Joel Tetreau's picture
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A question & a point

Is there anyone else in the SI room that believes a Baptist has to be called a baptist to actually be a baptist? It's been my experience that many who call themselves Baptist are actually not Baptist. Once again, at least in my book - and maybe even with our dear friends in the MBA, what is far more important about a leader is what he believe's and how he lives - not just what he is called. Alex, there is nothing Biblically wrong here with a Baptist group asking a Community Church leader to come to a Baptist meeting. The reality is many community and "non-denom" guys are actually more Baptist than many Baptist are ..... Baptist.

A quick thought. Straight Ahead!

jt

One more thought - thankfully all over the world Bible church people and Baptist church people are mixing more and more. This is wonderful - it will mean less of an "awkward" stage when they bump into each other in Heaven!

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Baptist Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Alex Guggenheim's picture
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Joel you have conveniently

Joel you have conveniently reframed my observation and made it into a straw man with which you could wrestle.

So you are champion over your own invented debate opponent. Congratulations. As James suggested it is best to follow what has been said.

Rolland McCune's picture
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Johnson at MBA

A new leader arose in Minnesota Baptists that knew neither R. V. Clearwaters nor the history of the MBA, and so they got Phil Johnson as a headliner, and who knows who the next CE will be.

 

 

Rolland McCune

Joel Tetreau's picture
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Not a straw man & a reason for my support of Phil at the MBA

Alex,

Well it's been too long sense I've responded to you! I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

On to the point. Alex, you have done this before. When someone answers you straight up - you try to shove them over into the ditch of false logic - so you say my response is a straw man. It is not. You accuse Phil of not being a baptist vis-a-vis "non-denom." I happen to believe he is a baptist by way of belief, at least historically. As such I believe a historic baptist group can ask a historic baptist guy to come minister. How in the world is that response filled with straw my man? It is not. This was a direct response to one of your earlier points. Well - he limits his fellowship and is careful as to which baptists he hangs with. I really don't blame him. I find myself doing the same. It's OK that you and others wish the MBA would have chosen someone else.

I'm thrilled they've asked Phil for a variety of reasons - the largest one being I believe the barrier between responsible fundamentalists and militant conservative evangelicals is a sad divide. These conservative and militant evangelicals are not ecumenical and as such must not be viewed as disobedient brethreim! To link them with ecumenical evangelicalism or "new-evangelicalism" is not accurate. In my way of thinking this continued ecclesiastical divide that some of you want to continue would be similar to there being a Berlin wall twenty years after the fall of communism in Germany. Uh the war is over - conservative and militant evangelicals hate ecumenicalism and even practice forms of secondary separation. Some of you remind me of the Japanese soldier by the name of  Hiroo Onoda. It seems that Hiroo finally accepted that War World 2 ended almost 30 years after it did end. Yep - Hiroo came out of his Philippine jungle on March 10, 1975 at the age of 52 and surrendered. Don't be a fundamentalist version of "Hiroo" - still fighting an ecclesiastical battle that in reality ended years ago. Sure there are differences between Type B's and C's ..... but not enough to cut them off!

One more personal commentary here - It saddens me that some who I respect and love deeply just can't bury the hatchet already! We have real enemies of the gospel and I promise you Phil Johnson is not one of them! As a matter of fact Phil is a friend in the Gospel. I would submit that Phil is a better baptist and a better fundamentalist when it comes to consistent practice than many who claimed both labels and ministered at one time or another within the MBA. A few thoughts from I'm sure what Alex will call another hay ride. Please pass the cider!

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Baptist Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

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Joel Tetreau

Joel Tetreau wrote:

Alex,

Well it's been too long sense I've responded to you! I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

I look forward to your posts seeing that public entertainment is in a dreadful state.

Joel Tetreau wrote:
On to the point. Alex, you have done this before. When someone answers you straight up - you try to shove them over into the ditch of false logic -
Histrionics is not an argument.

Joe Tetreau wrote:
so you say my response is a straw man. It is not. You accuse Phil of not being a baptist vis-a-vis "non-denom."
I don't have to accuse Phil of not being a Baptist because he isn't. He identifies himself as not being a Baptist.

Joe Tetreau wrote:
I happen to believe he is a baptist by way of belief, at least historically.
Maybe you should write him a letter and ask why he does not identify himself as a baptist before you override his own biographical information.

Joel Tetreau wrote:
As such I believe a historic baptist group can ask a historic baptist guy to come minister. How in the world is that response filled with straw my man? It is not. This was a direct response to one of your earlier points.
Glad you asked. Here is what you said which was a straw man:

Joel-"Alex, there is nothing Biblically wrong here with a Baptist group asking a Community Church leader to come to a Baptist meeting."

However, I made no such complaint. In fact here is what I did say to which you were responding:

Alex-"And the issue is not whether the group is good or whether a non-denominationalist can ever speak to a group of Baptists such as at a Bible conference. But when the meeting is specifically Baptist and even further, that of a Baptist Association, yes, it is quite ironic that a non-baptist and non-denominationalist would be the "featured" speaker."

You see Joel? Right, I didn't say there was a problem with a Baptist group asking a non-denominationalist to "ever" speak, rather that at a meeting which is purposefully and centered upon Baptist identification both personally and ecclesiastically, to have a non-denom as a featured speaker is unprincipled. The meeting is an affirmative Baptist meeting, that is a group of Baptist of personal and ecclesiastical Baptist identification, meeting to affirm its distinctives. You ignored my context as if I merely asserted there is something wrong with "a Baptist group asking a Community Church leader to come to a Baptist meeting" which I never asserted. So now you understand your mistake, at least that is my hope.

Joel Tetreau wrote:
Well - he limits his fellowship and is careful as to which baptists he hangs with. I really don't blame him.
Well, no Joel he is not careful. He has eagerly embraced John Piper's errant Christian Hedonism and Doug Wilson's (not even a baptist but even farther out) heretical Federal Vision doctrine of works salvation and if he has any issue with either he is remiss in stating any vigorous objections. The worse he ever said of Piper was a tear from his eye because of a platform moment with Rick Warren but has ignored, over and over again Piper's foray into exegetical error and its subsequent doctrinal and practical error. No, Phil is not a Baptist, he is a Calvinist and frankly a Neo-Calvinst and that is what this having him is about.

Joel Tetreau wrote:
It's OK that you and others wish the MBA would have chosen someone else.
Thank you for the permission slip.

Joel Tetreau wrote:
[I'm thrilled they've asked Phil for a variety of reasons - the largest one being I believe the barrier between responsible fundamentalists and militant conservative evangelicals is a sad divide. These conservative and militant evangelicals are not ecumenical and as such must not be viewed as disobedient brethreim! To link them with ecumenical evangelicalism or "new-evangelicalism" is not accurate.
It is people like Johnson who dance with the Pipers and Wilsons of errant doctrine who link themselves.
Joel Tetreau wrote:
In my way of thinking this continued ecclesiastical divide that some of you want to continue would be similar to there being a Berlin wall twenty years after the fall of communism in Germany.

Uh the war is over - conservative and militant evangelicals hate ecumenicalism and even practice forms of secondary separation. Some of you remind me of the Japanese soldier by the name of  Hiroo Onoda. It seems that Hiroo finally accepted that War World 2 ended almost 30 years after it did end. Yep - Hiroo came out of his Philippine jungle on March 10, 1975 at the age of 52 and surrendered. Don't be a fundamentalist version of "Hiroo" - still fighting an ecclesiastical battle that in reality ended years ago. Sure there are differences between Type B's and C's ..... but not enough to cut them off!

You never lack for melodrama Joel but it undermines your objections rather severely.

Joel Tetreau wrote:
One more personal commentary here - It saddens me that some who I respect and love deeply just can't bury the hatchet already! We have real enemies of the gospel and I promise you Phil Johnson is not one of them! As a matter of fact Phil is a friend in the Gospel. I would submit that Phil is a better baptist and a better fundamentalist when it comes to consistent practice than many who claimed both labels and ministered at one time or another within the MBA. A few thoughts from I'm sure what Alex will call another hay ride. Please pass the cider!

I prefer cognac. I am sorry, where did I claim Johnson to be an enemy of the Gospel? Right, no where. You know NBC is looking for soap opera writers Joel. Good grief.

I do believe Johnson is a committed Calvinist and can rightly be described as a Neo-Calvinist in many instances. Now, he will tell you he is a Calvinist, that is for certain. But a Baptist, no, he is not. He is no more a Baptist than he is a Presbyterian though he shares much of the doctrines of both. He deliberately identifies himself outside of Baptist distinction in his theological identification. He ought to have enough self-constraint to understand where he should be featured and where he should not though weaker minds might be eager to have him.

It is thoroughly unprincipled and remains that way and I will continue to object as I would if the LCMS were to invite a non-LCMS Minister to be a featured speaker at a specifically LCMS meeting as opposed to merely a Bible conference. But they don't. You know why? Because at least they understand Biblical separation on that matter. The MBA did at one time, but not today.

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Alex Guggenheim wrote:I don't

Alex Guggenheim wrote:
I don't have to accuse Phil of not being a Baptist because he isn't. He identifies himself as not being a Baptist . . . Maybe you should write him a letter and ask why he does not identify himself as a baptist before you override his own biographical information

For some potential clarity, Phil said [url=http://sharperiron.org/comment/21842#comment-21842]here[/url]:

Though baptistic by conviction, I've never been a member of any Baptist organization. And though I'm Calvinistic in soteriology I have never championed "Reformed theology" as a system; I'm too Baptistic for that.

Likewise, I'm a fundamentalist by conviction but too independent to join the kind of "fundamentalist" fraternity where brashness is mistaken for leadership and trivial matters and trite ideas are treated as if they were fundamental doctrines.

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Right he is a Baptist.

Right he is a Baptist.

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I don't say he is or isn't. 

I don't say he is or isn't.  I just wanted to direct any interested party to what he once said about himself. 

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Right he makes clear that he

Right he makes clear that he is not a Baptist and only at best baptistic.

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Clarification

The meeting is an affirmative Baptist meeting, that is a group of Baptist of personal and ecclesiastical Baptist identification, meeting to affirm its distinctives.

I am not going to spend a lot of time in this discussion, because I simply don't have the time to spend. That being said, this is not the MBA's annual meeting (which takes place in the summer)- this is a men's gathering, sponsored by the Minnesota Baptist Association (which describes, not this meeting, but the organization of fellowshipping congregations) where our churches pool our resources together to address issues that will assist the men of our churches to function better as Christians in the course of their daily lives. We have a similar meeting for ladies annually as well. While there have been times in the men's meetings where we have featured discussions on local church doctrine and practice distinctive to Baptist churches, we have also addressed topics closer to Biblical Counseling ("Christian Living in the Home" was a recent theme).

So, with that in mind, we found it quite appropriate to bring Phil in to address the men of our churches in this setting, and furthermore, so did all of the pastors whose churches have been taking the most advantage of these annual gatherings over the last several years. 

It should also be noted that Phil has signed the MBA's Position Statement, in his own words, "without hesitation." The statement is not one recently drawn up, either. It begins by defining New Evangelicalism, has a statement on what constitutes a "disobedient brother," and other similar language and posture. This recent article, based on an interview with Phil, demonstrates that's no anomaly, either.

I'm sure this won't deflect all the criticism, but I hope it at least is useful in framing further discussion.

Feel free to contact me personally with any concerns. I don't intend to post in this thread again. I'd be happy to discuss this with some of you face-to-face at the event next September, if you wish! Biggrin

Greg Linscott
President, MBA Men's Fellowship Committee
pastor@firstbaptistmarshall.com

 

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

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Thank you Greg. You are

Thank you Greg. You are correct that as a featured speaker and knowing Johnson's willingness to affirm errant Teachers such as Wilson does not deflect criticism of his choice no matter what he signs seeing his conduct in transfers of trust via fellowship is otherwise. But it does temper the objection regarding the context thus my contextual objection is softened.

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Alex, Wilson is a

Alex, Wilson is a postmill covenantist.  Where does Johnson affirm Wilson?  Are you talking about a partial affirmation?

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

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James K wrote: Alex, Wilson

James K wrote:

Alex, Wilson is a postmill covenantist.  Where does Johnson affirm Wilson?  Are you talking about a partial affirmation?

James, somehow I missed this. I believe in answering this question I should be clear, the affirming relationship that Johnson has had toward Wilson is but one of many reasons Johnson, I believe, has no place as a featured speaker in an MBA group, in fact as a speaker at all. But that is my opinion. He has affirmed Wilson for years, both in recommending him without consistent qualification as a theological resource while omitting any substantial criticism of Wilson's heresy called Federal Vision which should remove Wilson from a recommended source.

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Maybe there is some

Maybe there is some affirmation, but I have googled the names and found some serious disagreement over at least one issue Phil doesn't back down from.  Too much excusing exists just because people are calvinists, but such looking the other way exists in every level and topic of fellowship.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

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Conference Audio Now Available

Sessions are here: http://www.mbaoc.net/men/audio-sessions/

 

Photos are here.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN