Let's Get Clear On This

143 replies [Last post]
Kevin T. Bauder
Offline
User
Joined: Sat, Jun 6 2009
Posts: 210

NickOfTime

A variety of electronic periodicals reach my inbox regularly. One that arrives nearly every day is published by a retired seminary professor. Most days I derive a great deal of pleasure and often profit from glancing through his cogitations.

Today’s number, however, evoked a bit of concern. The dear fellow was reprinting some criticisms that he had received. Here is what they said.

The oft-repeated mantra coming out of Dr. Piper and Dr. Storms is that it is impossible for human beings to enjoy too much pleasure. We are made for pleasure, but it’s the pleasure of enjoying God. These guys are full-bore new evangelicals and Piper is a hard line Calvinist…. Why are you promoting this sort of thing?

While I can appreciate many things coming out of Dr. Piper’s ministry, are you endorsing such a leading New Evangelical with no disclaimer?…I am sure you do not endorse the New Evangelicalism that is Dr. Piper’s ministry, but when we simply laud a New Evangelical by attending his conference and praising it, that is the result at the practical level.

These responses are typical of the way that some Fundamentalists view conservative evangelicals in general. These men apparently divide all American Christians into only two categories: Fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals. If a Christian leader is not recognized as a Fundamentalist, then he is considered to be a new evangelical, with all the opprobrium that follows.

This binary system of classification is far too simplistic. American Christianity never has been neatly divided between new evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Other groups have always existed, and one of them is the group that we now designate as conservative evangelicals.

Conservative evangelicalism encompasses a diverse spectrum of Christian leaders. Representatives include John Piper, Mark Dever, John MacArthur, Charles Ryrie, Bruce Ware, Bryan Chapell, Wayne Grudem, D. A. Carson, Al Mohler, Tim Keller, John D. Hannah, Ed Welch, Ligon Duncan, Tom Nettles, C. J. Mahaney, Norman Geisler, and R. C. Sproul. Conservative evangelical organizations include Together for the Gospel (T4G), the Gospel Coalition, the Master’s Seminary, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (at least in its better moments), and Ligonier Ministries. These individuals and organizations exhibit a remarkable range of differences, but they can be classed together because of their vigorous commitment to and defense of the gospel.

Both mainstream ecumenicals and Left-leaning evangelicals would like to classify these individuals as Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals, however, do not perceive themselves as Fundamentalists. Most Fundamentalists also recognize some differences. While there are similarities between them, enough differences remain that Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals ought to be distinguished from each other.

What are those differences? Anti-dispensationalism seems to be more widely characteristic of conservative evangelicalism than it is of Fundamentalism, though it is less vitriolic than the anti-Calvinism of some Fundamentalists. Toleration of Third-Wave charismatic theology is widely accepted among conservative evangelicals but universally rejected among Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals are willing to accommodate the more contemporary versions of popular culture, while Fundamentalists restrict themselves to older manifestations. Most importantly, Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals still do not agree about what to do with Christian leaders who make common cause with apostates.

Conservative evangelicals are different from Fundamentalists, but they are not new evangelicals. New evangelicals were committed to a policy of re-infiltrating ecclesiastical organizations that had been captured by apostates. They wanted to live in peaceful coexistence with apostasy. They were willing to recognize certain apostates as fellow-Christians and to cooperate with them in the Lord’s work. These are attitudes that conservative evangelicals explicitly reject. To apply this label to a conservative evangelical is completely unwarranted.

Frankly, conservative evangelicals do seem to take doctrine more seriously today than many Fundamentalists do. Not that the Fundamentalists are unwilling to discuss doctrine! Many of them are at this moment arguing for a “biblical” doctrine of the perfect preservation of the King James Version or of the Textus Receptus. Others have speculated that the work of redemption was not completed until Christ carried His material blood into the heavenly tabernacle, there to abide as a perpetual memorial before the presence of the Father. Still others have engaged in shrill campaigns of anti-Calvinism while defending theories of human nature that almost beg to be described as Pelagian. Such Fundamentalists are too numerous to be dismissed as aberrations—indeed, their tribe seems to be increasing.

Conservative evangelicals have oriented themselves by fixed points of doctrine. They have scoured apostasy from the world’s largest seminary. They have debunked Open Theism. They have articulated and defended a Complementarian position against evangelical feminism. They have rebutted the opponents of inerrancy. They have exposed and refuted the New Perspective on Paul. They have challenged the Emergent Church and laid bare its bankruptcy.

In other words, because many Fundamentalists appear to have lost their doctrinal sobriety, the initiative for defending the gospel has shifted from Fundamentalism to conservative evangelicalism. Conservative evangelicals have majored on the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. Rather than centering themselves upon theological novelties and idiosyncrasies, they have given themselves to a defense of the Faith.

Nevertheless, some Fundamentalists have managed to convince themselves that conservative evangelicals are the enemy. They insist that John Piper is a neo-evangelical. They actually hope to limit his influence—and the influence of other conservative evangelicals—in their churches and among their younger generation.

The apostle Paul insisted that he was “set for the defense of the gospel.” Fifty years ago, that phrase appeared on nearly every Fundamentalist ordination certificate. Today, however, Fundamentalists simply allow others to defend the gospel for them. The sad truth is that the most forceful defenders of the gospel are no longer to be found within the Fundamentalist camp.

To be sure, significant differences continue to exist between Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Those differences, however, are less serious than the ones that exist between the various camps within Fundamentalism. For example, many Fundamentalist churches and institutions have capitulated to the error of King James Onlyism. Many Fundamentalists are willing to tolerate and even idolize arrogant and egotistical leaders. Many Fundamentalists are willing to live with doctrinal shallowness and trivial worship in their pulpits and in their hymnals. Many Fundamentalists continue to believe that manipulative Revivalism will produce vibrant Christians. Who could deny that these matters are serious?

Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well. Nevertheless, the errors that are tolerated within Fundamentalism are every bit as great as the errors that were committed by the new evangelicalism. They are certainly greater than the differences that exist between mainstream, historic Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals.

Upcoming young leaders are uncertain about the future of Fundamentalism and about their future with it. And no wonder. One Fundamentalist college recently advertized that it does not teach Greek to theology majors. Why? Because the school has an “absolute conviction that the King James Bible is God’s perfect, preserved Word for the English Speaking World.” Contrast that school’s approach with D. A. Carson’s essays in his upcoming book, Collected Writings on Scripture. If young leaders are forced to choose between these two approaches, I have no doubt which choice they will make.

More and more Fundamentalists are coming to the same conclusion. They are not entering into full cooperation with conservative evangelicals, but they are working together in certain targeted areas. Quiet conversations have been occurring between some Fundamentalist leaders and some conservative evangelical leaders for several years. One seminary recently hosted John D. Hannah for a lecture series, and another hosted Ed Welch. A Fundamentalist mission agency brought in John Piper to challenge its missionaries. A leader who is a Fundamentalist pastor and seminary president has written for a conservative evangelical periodical. A very straight-laced Bible college sent its students to T4G. One elder statesman of Fundamentalism chose to preach in the chapel of a conservative evangelical seminary. Other Fundamentalist schools are slated to host Michael Vlach from Master’s Seminary and Mark Dever from Capital Hill Baptist Church. These steps are being taken, not by disaffected young Fundamentalists, but by the older generation of leadership within the mainstream of the Fundamentalist movement.

These leaders are neither abandoning Fundamentalism nor embracing conservative evangelicalism. They are simply recognizing that the Fundamentalist label is no guarantee of doctrinal fidelity. They are aware that historic, mainstream Fundamentalism has more in common with conservative evangelicals than it does with many who wear the Fundamentalist label.

Even such mild and narrow recognition, however, provokes panic from the Fundamentalist opponents of conservative evangelicals. Like the two critics at the beginning of this essay, these opponents express concern that any level of involvement with conservative evangelicals will constitute a blanket endorsement of their errors. These Fundamentalist critics, however, are seldom willing to express these same concerns over the excesses of the hyper-fundamentalist Right.

We Fundamentalists may not wish to identify with everything that conservative evangelicals say and do. To name these men as neo-evangelicals, nonetheless, is entirely unwarranted. To treat them like enemies or even opponents is to demonize the very people who are the foremost defenders of the gospel today. We do not have to agree in every detail to recognize the value of what they do.

If we did not have conservative evangelicals to guard the borders, the real enemy would have invaded our camp long ago. Fundamentalism has exhibited a remarkable freedom from Open Theism, evangelical feminism, New Perspective theology, and other present-day threats to the gospel. The reason is not that Fundamentalists have kept the enemy at bay. The reason is that other thinkers—mainly conservative evangelicals—have carried the battle to the enemy. Conservative evangelicals are the heavy artillery, under the shelter of whose barrage Fundamentalists have been able to find some measure of theological safety.

So let’s get clear on this.

Conservative evangelicals are not our enemies. They are not our opponents. Conservative evangelicals have proven themselves to be allies and even leaders in the defense of the faith.

If we attack conservative evangelicals, then we attack the defense of the faith. We attack indirectly the thing that we hold most dear, namely, the gospel itself, for that is what they are defending. We should not wish these brothers to falter or to grow feeble, but rather to flourish. We must do nothing to weaken their hand in the face of the enemies of the gospel.

If we believe that we must respond to conservative evangelicalism, then let us begin by addressing the areas in which they have exposed our weakness. Let us refocus our attention upon the exaltation of God. Let us exalt, apply, and defend the gospel in all its fullness. If we were more like what we ought to be, perhaps we would feel less threatened by those whose exploits attract the attention of our followers.

Whatever our differences, I thank God for John Piper. I thank God for Mark Dever. I thank God for John MacArthur. I thank God for D. A. Carson. I thank God for a coalition of Christian leaders who have directed our focus to the centrality of the gospel and the exaltation of God. May their defense of the biblical faith prosper.

Penitentiall Hymns. II.

Jeremy Taylor (1613-1667)

Great God, and just! how canst thou see,
Dear God, our miserie,
And not in mercy set us free?
Poor miserable man! how wert thou born,
Weak as the dewy jewels of the Morn,
Rapt up in tender dust,
Guarded with sins and lust,
Who like Court flatterers waite
To serve themselves in thy unhappy fate.
Wealth is a snare, and poverty brings in
Inlets for theft, paving the way for sin:
Each perfum’d vanity doth gently breath
Sin in thy Soul, and whispers it to Death.
Our faults like ulcerated sores do go
O’re the sound flesh, and do corrupt that too.
Lord, we are sick, spotted with sin,
Thick as a crusty Lepers skin,
Like Naaman, bid us wash, yet let it be
In streams of blood that flow from thee:
Then will we sing,
Touch’d by the heavenly Doves bright wing,
Hallelujahs, Psalms and Praise
To God the Lord of night and dayes;
Ever good, and ever just,
Ever high, who ever must
Thus be sung; is still the same;
Eternal praises crown his Name. Amen.


This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.

R Glenny
R Glenny's picture
Online
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 7
Conservative Evangelicals

Thank you, Dr Bauder.
R Glenny

__________________

Richard Glenny

Brian Ernsberger
Offline
Former member
Joined: Wed, Jun 17 2009
Posts: 26
Now we know

Yes, Dr. Bauder, thank you. Now we know.

Matthew Richards
Matthew Richards's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 79
nice

Growing up within the Hyles regime I couldn't agree more. I am always amazed at the latitude given those who "look" fundamental (frumpy skirts and tapered haircuts) and the complete opposite attitude towards the conservative evangelicals by some within my circle of fundamentalism. I appreciate Dr. Bauder's observations here.

Matthew Richards

Paul J. Scharf
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jul 21 2009
Posts: 588
Dr. Bauder speaks with clarity
Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

This binary system of classification is far too simplistic. American Christianity never has been neatly divided between new evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Other groups have always existed, and one of them is the group that we now designate as conservative evangelicals.

Thanks, Dr. Bauder, for speaking with clarity from the courage of conviction. As I have said before about your essays, I wish someone had been speaking this way 20 years ago.
As I read the article, the only clarification I would personally make is that I would put more weight on someone's theological convictions (or, possibly, his expertise in one particular area) than whether or not he is accepted as a fundamentalist or a conservative evangelical, etc.
In these -- perhaps final -- days of apostasy in the church, my goal is to find the people who are the most fiercely committed to the exposition of Scripture.
Sadly, I have definitely met some people within "fundamentalism" who do not fall within that category.

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

Charlie
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 864
Quote: These responses are
Quote:

These responses are typical of the way that some Fundamentalists view conservative evangelicals in general. These men apparently divide all American Christians into only two categories: Fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals. If a Christian leader is not recognized as a Fundamentalist, then he is considered to be a new evangelical, with all the opprobrium that follows.
....
To be sure, significant differences continue to exist between Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Those differences, however, are less serious than the ones that exist between the various camps within Fundamentalism. For example, many Fundamentalist churches and institutions have capitulated to the error of King James Onlyism. Many Fundamentalists are willing to tolerate and even idolize arrogant and egotistical leaders. Many Fundamentalists are willing to live with doctrinal shallowness and trivial worship in their pulpits and in their hymnals. Many Fundamentalists continue to believe that manipulative Revivalism will produce vibrant Christians. Who could deny that these matters are serious?

Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well. Nevertheless, the errors that are tolerated within Fundamentalism are every bit as great as the errors that were committed by the new evangelicalism. They are certainly greater than the differences that exist between mainstream, historic Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals.

These thoughts are truly precious to me. They describe the thinking that led me away from movement Fundamentalism to confessional Presbyterianism. Obviously, I first and foremost came to believe Presbyterian doctrine, contained in the Westminster Confession of Faith as received in my denomination, is true or at least better than any competitor out there. However, I don't think I gave up any of my separatism when I left. Rather, three things became more and more apparent to me from my time in movement Fundamentalism:

1) It is not true that Fundamentalists practice separatism and others don't.
2) It is true that there are differences among Christians about what constitutes error and how the church should handle it.
3) Historic confessionalism provides a guideline for handling error, as well as a platform for deep fellowship between institutions and for substantive theological engagement; "Biblicism" and autonomy do not.

Numbers 1 and 2 are really to the point of Bauder's essay. Something that continually strikes me as amusing is that my "evangelical" denomination (PCA) requires much stricter doctrinal conformity in many areas than did BJU, where I did my undergrad. In a single week at BJU in chapel, I might hear a speaker who was quite obviously anti-Calvinist, followed by one who was clearly a 4- or 5- pointer. I might hear a message on sanctification from a McQuilkin/Ryrie-esque Keswick perspective followed by one that sounded as if it were culled from John Owen. Tuesday speaker sounds like he just got done reading The Gospel According to Jesus, whereas Thursday is on a Zane Hodges kick. However, +90% of them agreed on the pre-trib rapture. My denomination follows our confession in taking a very clear line on all those issues except eschatology, which it leaves rather open-ended. So, the point is, it's not realistic to think that evangelicals allow all this latitude on doctrine whereas Fundamentalists follow in lock-step. Rather, Fundamentalists and confessional Presbyterians (for example) differ on where they allow doctrinal latitude. It is a difference concerning what constitutes serious error.

This is the real rub, isn't it? It's not as if most of these people are saying, "Oh, I know the guy next to me on the stage is spouting shameful heresy, but whatever, we're best buds." There are genuine differences not only as to what constitutes error, but as to the relative seriousness of various errors. Now, it is true that some evangelicals have not effectively dealt with theological error in their churches and institutions, but many do. My own denomination, in the last 5 years or so, has waged a mostly successful warfare against a particular aberration, the Federal Vision. This was done through the stated operation of our ecclesiastical courts, including a thorough review of evidence and the opportunity for the accused to defend themselves. How is this anything other than Fundamentalism in the best possible sense? In fact, is this not much better than Fundamentalism, which has no method or mechanism for prosecuting error? In a collection of "independent, autonomous" churches and institutions that are not bound by any stated confession or principles of procedure, what method can there be other than influential players leveraging opinion to get a substantial segment to shun another segment?

In conclusion, I believe that in my move to the PCA, I took with me the valuable elements of my Fundamentalist heritage, leaving the silliness behind.

__________________

My Blog: www.sacredpage.wordpress.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

Scott Davis
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Dec 23 2009
Posts: 1
Good article

Excellent article. Thanks for writing your thoughts for us to share.

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5399
Neo or not

I don't know if these CE's are "neo evangelicals" or not. What I do know is that in many places, "neo evangelical" has long meant nothing more than "guys who say and do things I don't approve of." I'm not sure it's really all that helpful to debate what we call them. But maybe that's the real point of the essay. Let's not recklessly lump everybody who's not a fundamentalist under one heading and require disclaimers to accompany any positive reference to them, regardless of whether the heading is "neo evangelicals" or "leo gevannelicals" or whatever.

Jon Bell
Offline
User
Joined: Fri, Jun 19 2009
Posts: 32
I too find more and more the

I too find more and more the taxonomy of Fundy vs Neo to be outdated and unhelpful in discussing the current situation.

Charlie][quote wrote:

In a collection of "independent, autonomous" churches and institutions that are not bound by any stated confession or principles of procedure, what method can there be other than influential players leveraging opinion to get a substantial segment to shun another segment?

I have become increasingly uncomfortable with the non-denominational approach to the church for this very reason. While denominations have their problems they seem to pale in comparison to everyone doing their own thing with no form of accountability or corrective other than what they voluntarily put themselves under.

__________________

Jon Bell
Bucksport, ME
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5399
Pendulum swings

I can't convince myself that the solution to the ills of Fundamentalism is to abandon local church autonomy.... not that I've tried very hard. Smile
But it strikes me as an overreaction to problems that leads to an equal (or greater?) number of slightly different problems.

Paul J. Scharf
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jul 21 2009
Posts: 588
Regarding Charlie's post

Charlie,

Post #5 is very interesting, and you make a number of good points. I guess we have taken opposite paths -- I went from a strong, centralized denomination (Lutheran in my case) to fundamentalism.

I cannot fully give an educated comparison of my Lutheran denomination to the PCA. However, I think most people who have ever been part of a strong denomination would definitely say that it offers some tangible advantages.

However, for me the question on that issue would be, Is denominationalism taught in Scripture? (Obviously, a side question in this case would be, Is Presbyterianism taught in Scripture?)

I know those are big, big questions which would take this thread in a whole new direction, so I am not looking for detailed answers -- just reminding us that you are not offering an easy solution.

I am glad for you that you have found contentment in the PCA. Perhaps those of us who still believe in, or at least work among, "independent, autonomous churches and institutions" could gain quite a bit of food for thought from your post. Specifically, how can our associations and groups of churches implement some of the best examples of what a group like the PCA might have to offer?

I also agree, Charlie, that fundamentalism at its worst can resemble a self-selecting "good ol' boys club" where "who's in" relates more to personalities (I think the proper term is "constituencies") than to doctrinal fidelity.

As has been hashed out thoroughly on SI in times past, one of the problems with the movement of fundamentalism -- perhaps the reason we are seeing it splinter apart now -- is that it is difficult (impossible?) to build a movement on a negative ("what people are not doing," i.e., associating with new evangelicals). One obvious downside to it is that it allows for oddballs -- people we might no more want to associate with than the man on the moon -- to become bona fide, influential members of the "movement" as long as they do not run with new evangelicals. Thus, we end up trying to somehow distinguish ourselves (Type A, B, C; "historic fundamentalist," militant, moderate, modified). But the average person in our churches hasn't a clue what any of that means.

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

Don Johnson
Offline
User
Joined: Fri, Feb 19 2010
Posts: 531
sure, they're neo: they're neo-neo-evangelicals...
Aaron Blumer wrote:

I don't know if these CE's are "neo evangelicals" or not. What I do know is that in many places, "neo evangelical" has long meant nothing more than "guys who say and do things I don't approve of."

Aaron, I really, really, really, REALLY don't want to get into this debate.

But I will urge readers to read Dave Doran's response to this article on his blog, Glory & Grace. I agree with what Dave wrote there, and he can't stand it. He disagrees with me disagreeing with him. Amazing.

But I urge that people read Dave's response and compare it to Bauder's article. Dave points out that several of the men Bauder names do exhibit several characteristics that are typical of new evangelical philosophy. (At least, I think that is what Dave is saying. Dave disagrees with me agreeing with him, so please take that into consideration.)

For my part, I think that these men may not be exactly like the new evangelicals. I think that they see some of the problems that new evangelicalism caused. However, I think that what they are trying to do is preserve the best of new evangelicalism. Some of them are willing to admit that the fundamentalists had a point in the initial controversy, but they also defend the basic premise that fundamentalism was the wrong answer to the question. As a result, they typically will say these kinds of things:

- We think new evangelicalism went too far
- However, we appreciate the corrective new evangelicalism provided to fundamentalism
- And we want to build on the best aspects of new evangelical thought

If you read these fellows enough, you will find remarks to that effect.

That's why I used the term 'neo-neo-evangelicals' in my header. It's kind of a joke, but only kind of. The conservative evangelicals, in my opinion, are trying to conserve the best parts of neo-evangelicalism while avoiding its errors and excesses. I think the neo-evangelical is hopelessly flawed and the conservative evangelicals will be unable to maintain their 'conservativism' beyond a generation. That is, when Piper, et al, pass off the scene, their heirs in their ministries will flounder just as the old neo-evangelicals did.

That's my opinion, anyway.

I expect this thread will continue on in its merry way in an explosion of comments in the next few days, but I think I will mostly leave it alone.

__________________

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Bob T.
Offline
Former memberUser
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 418
Woah, not so fast.

This is an article and response that has too many generalities and inaccuracies.

First John Piper would not be classified as a Conservative Evangelical. He is a classic Neo evangelical. Unlike MacArthur and some others he remains in a left of center evangelical denomination. The Baptist General Conference (now Converge Worldwide) has refused to rebuke or censure the doctrine of open theism. They accept the ordination of women, the possible errancy of scripture, and several other practices and doctrines contrary to scripture. Piper also is repeatedly involved in associations and practices that indicate a lack of discernment in protecting the flock. Also, he endorses Puritan oriented Calvinism that includes a false doctrine of assurance and Justification that must be proven by works before Christ. In light of the overall practices and doctrines that Piper has endorsed or become associated with, he fits the classic historical description of the Fuller Seminary 1947 self described Neo Evangelical. Since Piper was the sole subject of the responses conveyed in the article, it only clouds the subject to make such a broad response.

I do agree that the complaints may be unwarranted as one need not issue a disclaimer every time they are quoting or referring to a person that has some questionable doctrine.

Second, John MacArthur has propagated an errant Gospel which defines saving faith as including submission and obedience and places our assurance of Justification on our self examination of our own lives rather than focusing on Christ.

Both Piper and MacArthur promote doctrines regarding Soteriology that are contrary to the Reformers and mainstream Reformed faith today while claiming to be appealing to the Reformed faith. The best analysis of this subject is presented in the book "Christ The Lord," edited by Michael Horton and with chapters written by all Reformed Calvinist Theologians. They take apart MacArthur's Gospel and claims that it is that of the Reformers or most contemporary Reformed theologians.

Also, the graduates of Masters Seminary are not Of Fundamentalist orientation. Some go into churches of moderate and left evangelical orientation. Some go into the the IFCA, which on the West coast is not even Conservative Evangelical. The one common thread in most (but not all) Masters graduates is a Militant, on your sleeve, Calvinism.

It seems that Bauder is hastily rushing to castigate Fundamentalism without giving due consideration that discernment needs to be exercised in what he labels as "conservative evangelicalism." There has been a hasty acceptance by frustrated young fundamentalists of some doctrines and emphasis that have been taught by Piper and MacArthur.
MacArthur could be classified as a conservative evangelical because of his stand for 6 day creation, cessationism, inerrancy, and male headship in the family and church. He also has some discernment on relationships, though very inconsistent. However, there must be a warning about his errant Gospel and militant Calvinism. Piper is simply not a conservative evangelical at all. We may think some throw around the label of " New evangelical" too hastily. However, Piper fits the old 1947 label perfectly.

Third, it a hasty generalization to say "conservative evangelicals" are not our enemies. Some here on the west coast have become wary of Masters Seminary graduates and some of the convictions and attitudes they bring to ministry. This growing awareness of problems goes to the ministry of John MacArthur and his personal ministry and influence. John Piper has written some good things. But they come with baggage that must be unpacked carefully. These ministries may have good things, but they do not past the friendship test.

The label Fundamentalist is now taken by many that are a detriment to sound premise for faith and bibilical Christianity. The KJVO movement brings a false epistemology to Christianity. Nouthetic Counseling has caught on among some Fundamentalists and Masters Seminary and college and Westminster seminary. This brings a false approach to biblical anthropology, science, and wrong application of the sufficiency of scripture. Fundamentalism has many problems and some Fundamental schools amy have a problem sustaining a viable student body.

Some have enthusiastically received this article. I believe more thought and discernment is needed before accepting all that was written.

Greg Long
Greg Long's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 518
Thanks, Dr. Bauder. A great

Thanks, Dr. Bauder. A great article.

__________________

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Pastor Joe Roof
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 403
Thank you Dr. Bauder! For

Thank you Dr. Bauder!
For some time, I have thought that there are differences between conservative evangelicals and new evangelicals. I have even asked questions about this here at SI.

Finally, your article brought some answers to my questions.

Thanks again.

Ron Bean
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 309
Quote: What I do know is that
Quote:

What I do know is that in many places, "neo evangelical" has long meant nothing more than "guys who say and do things I don't approve of."

I've seen this daffynition used repeatedly in some circles. I'm not referring to those who would labeling as neo-evangelical those who who use translations other than the KJV or those who are Calvinists. I've heard the neo-evangelical label applied to those who:
- participated in charity efforts like disaster relief
- used any form of CCM
- used music from the WILDS and SoundForth
- pursued advanced theological degrees.

Historically, neo-evangelicalism sought to unite theological liberalism and conservatism and I don't see MacArthur and the rest embracing that kind of unification.

Personally, I appreciate what Dr. Bauder has written.

__________________

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Jay
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditor
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 2304
Great Job

I appreciate Dr. Bauder's willingness to expose the fact that Fundamentalists have not typically practiced what they've preached and to reinforce the fact that MacArthur et al aren't really that far from where we are, and in some ways are far more sober-minded than we have been. I'd never heard of church discipline [for example] until I'd seen it done by an IFCA-Int'l church or heard about it from...Dr. MacArthur.

I guess for me, it's not a matter of "us" vs. "them" as a matter of "who is heading in the right direction theologically and eccelesiastically?". We've been hearing warnings from Fundy leaders for at least 4 years now that the movement was (to put it kindly) adrift, and even Phil Johnson got into the act at a Shepherd's Conference in 2005. Yet we haven't really seen any real semblance of change or desire for theolgical seriousness, as last summer's Sweatt kerfuddle proved. Is it really all that surprising that young fundamentalists are abandoning the Fundy culture in droves for something that seems to be more Biblically grounded and Christ focused as a result?

I guess only those with the eyes to see will see after all.

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

Jim Peet
Jim Peet's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditorAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3507
@ Bot T. re the BGC
Bob T. wrote:

The Baptist General Conference (now Converge Worldwide) has refused to rebuke or censure the doctrine of open theism. They accept the ordination of women, the possible errancy of scripture, and several other practices and doctrines contrary to scripture.

I'm not thoroughly familiar with the BGC but:

Re: The Scriptures. The organization's doctrinal statement (http://www.scene3.org/content/view/2144/162/#three) states:

Quote:

We believe that the Bible is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and that it has supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

The BGC isn't a denomination (with any hierarchy or denominational structure). It's simply a free & voluntary association of locally-autonomous churches. The BGC doesn't "speak for" or on behalf of any of the churches which choose to associate with it.

I understand that Jerry Sheveland, the current president of the BGC, adamantly rejects open theism, is wholly complementarian, and absolutely believes in inerrancy.

Matthew Olmstead
Matthew Olmstead's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 80
Dave Doran's response

Dave Doran's response

__________________

Father of three, husband of one, servant of the Lord Jesus Christ. I blog at mattolmstead.com.

Jamie Hart
Jamie Hart's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 92
Good Stuff

Greatly appreciated the article. Thanks, Dr. Bauder.

It's another example why labeling can be dangerous. Though these labels identify SOME of the characteristics of these men, no label does anyone full justice. In addition, there is no consensus on what these labels mean. Fundamental means one thing to one person and something different to another...of course the same is true of Conservative Evangelical. We too quickly disregard someone's ministry because someone else labeled them. I, for one, am not content with most labels. I would prefer to listen, read, and evaluate a person's ministry than trust a label someone else gave them.

__________________

Senior Pastor
Harvest Bible Chapel, Fort Wayne, IN

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5399
Doran's post
Don Johnson wrote:

...But I urge that people read Dave's response and compare it to Bauder's article. Dave points out that several of the men Bauder names do exhibit several characteristics that are typical of new evangelical philosophy. (At least, I think that is what Dave is saying. Dave disagrees with me agreeing with him, so please take that into consideration.)

I would also encourage folks to read Doran's post (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/GloryGrace/~3/sRahfsZ2JgE/). Saw it in the blogroll.
He's got some good information there, but his observations partly motivated my post earlier in this thread: it's not terribly important what we call these guys and given the changed and still shifting landscape, the historical term "neo evangelical" is fast losing its usefulness (probably is past having usefulness).
But I appreciate the way Doran lays out some important facts regarding what some of them have been involved in of late.

Don's observation that the CEs may be something like neo-neo-evangelicals sounds kind of goofy, but there's merit to the idea... as in modified neo-evangelicalism.

I'm a bit distracted at the moment, so sorry if my post is a bit incoherent.

Jim Peet
Jim Peet's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditorAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3507
An obsession with labels and taxonomies

Fundamentalists have an obsession with labels and taxonomies.

The old canards of "He's a neo ... " should be eschewed!

Do the hard work and understand that the world is not black and white.

Fundamentalists have historically given "their side" a pass for their side's peccadillos and infractions; but if someone who does not name the name (self declare) and wave the banner, ever flaw is magnified.

Pastor Joe Roof
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 403
David Doran wrote: I guess I
David Doran wrote:

I guess I find myself back at a spot where most of these discussions end for me these days. I think they are all handicapped by the use of labels from the 20th century which no longer fit and, therefore, don’t serve the discussion well. By thinking of three circles—new evangelicalism, conservative evangelicalism, and fundamentalism—all of the energy of the discussion goes into who’s in and who’s out. The unavoidable problem, though, is that nobody can define in and out at this stage of the game. So, where I differ with Bauder is that I don’t think that we can say anything definitive about a group. We need to look at individual men and ministries, find out what they believe and how they apply those beliefs, and then draw our conclusions.

Good stuff!

Bob T.
Offline
Former memberUser
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 418
Regarding Converge Worldwide.
Jim Peet wrote:
Bob T. wrote:

The Baptist General Conference (now Converge Worldwide) has refused to rebuke or censure the doctrine of open theism. They accept the ordination of women, the possible errancy of scripture, and several other practices and doctrines contrary to scripture.

I'm not thoroughly familiar with the BGC but:

Re: The Scriptures. The organization's doctrinal statement (http://www.scene3.org/content/view/2144/162/#three) states:

Quote:

We believe that the Bible is the Word of God, fully inspired and without error in the original manuscripts, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and that it has supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

The BGC isn't a denomination (with any hierarchy or denominational structure). It's simply a free & voluntary association of locally-autonomous churches. The BGC doesn't "speak for" or on behalf of any of the churches which choose to associate with it.

I understand that Jerry Sheveland, the current president of the BGC, adamantly rejects open theism, is wholly complementarian, and absolutely believes in inerrancy.

Jim,

The doctrinal statement is simply not reflective of many of the Pastors in churches of "Converge Worldwide" (the old BGC). The old name indicates it was a conference. This is a tighter, more centrally controlled, form of Baptist organization of churches rather than an association. It is a denomination by the common definition. It does have denominational executives (directors) and offices. It is tightly controlled.

It is filled with numerous Bethel Seminary and Fuller Seminary graduates who do not hold to the full inerrancy of scripture and who compromise on other doctrines. It has been so for decades. As you are aware Bethel University just had a conference of sorts where they had invited Buddhists monks to discuss common ground and meditation techniques. The denomination has had those with doubtful doctrine for decades. I discussed the inerrancy of scripture with one of their Pastors of a church in Federal Way, Washington in 1967. My wife and I were visiting churches looking for a church home. He was under the auspices of the denomination planting a new church and a Bethel seminary graduate. He was what was then a typical New Evangelical. John Piper continues an association with "Converge Worldwide" and Bethel University. I personally could never be involved with a "Converge Worldwide" church.

Jamie Hart
Jamie Hart's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 92
2-fold
Pastor Joe Roof wrote:
David Doran wrote:

I guess I find myself back at a spot where most of these discussions end for me these days. I think they are all handicapped by the use of labels from the 20th century which no longer fit and, therefore, don’t serve the discussion well. By thinking of three circles—new evangelicalism, conservative evangelicalism, and fundamentalism—all of the energy of the discussion goes into who’s in and who’s out. The unavoidable problem, though, is that nobody can define in and out at this stage of the game. So, where I differ with Bauder is that I don’t think that we can say anything definitive about a group. We need to look at individual men and ministries, find out what they believe and how they apply those beliefs, and then draw our conclusions.

Good stuff!

Amen and amen.

__________________

Senior Pastor
Harvest Bible Chapel, Fort Wayne, IN

Bob T.
Offline
Former memberUser
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 418
Correction.

Both Piper and MacArthur promote doctrines regarding Soteriology that are contrary to the Reformers and mainstream Reformed faith today while claiming to be appealing to the Reformed faith. The best analysis of this subject is presented in the book "Christ The Lord," edited by Michael Horton and with chapters written by all Reformed Calvinist Theologians. They take apart MacArthur's Gospel and claim that it is [not] that of the Reformers or most contemporary Reformed theologians.

In my post #12 above I left out the "not" in this paragraph. Seemed important to correct.

C. D. Cauthorne Jr.
C. D. Cauthorne Jr.'s picture
Offline
User
Joined: Thu, Jun 4 2009
Posts: 31
Is Bauder being inconsistent?
Quote:

Let us refocus our attention upon the exaltation of God. Let us exalt, apply, and defend the gospel in all its fullness. If we were more like what we ought to be, perhaps we would feel less threatened by those whose exploits attract the attention of our followers.

I agree with this statement from Dr. Bauder. However, I'm afraid that he does not apply it towards those within "the hyper-Fundamentalist right."

There are many godly people who would hold to what he would define as the King James Only position. Yet, Dr. Bauder constantly derides them.

Dr. Bauder belittles a stand on the blood of Christ which the World Congress of Funamentalists took in 1986 when they unanimously affirmed: "The precious Blood is indestructible. It cannot be anything else because of its permanence. The Blood is eternally preserved in heaven. Hebrews 12:24."

Dr. Bauder believes that those who question five-point Calvinism engage in "shrill campaigns" and "defend theories of human nature that almost beg to be described as Pelagian." Isn't that too broad of a characterization?

Does Dr. Bauder need to use such abrasive rhetoric? Does he feel "threatened by those whose exploits attract the attention of [his] followers?"

I do not view Conservative Evangelicals as the enemy. However, I also do not believe "the hyper-Fundamentalist right" is the enemy either. In fact, I would probably be classified by Dr. Bauder as a part of the later group.

IMO, If Dr. Bauder got to personally know some of the folks in "the hyper-Fundamentalist right" (especially those nameless soldiers of the Lord serving in the trenches), he would realize that we both love and serve the same Savior.

__________________

www.calvaryofclintwood.com

Jim Peet
Jim Peet's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditorAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3507
@ Bob: BGC on Openness of God
Bob T. wrote:

The Baptist General Conference (now Converge Worldwide) has refused to rebuke or censure the doctrine of open theism

Bob, you are just plan wrong here!

http://www.scene3.org/content/view/1589/64/

Quote:

From the Edgren Fellowship to the 2000 Annual Meeting(introduced by Larry Adams)Passed by a large majority on 6/28/2000

Whereas the Bible reveals and affirms that God knows all of the past, present and future exhaustively, and

Whereas both Presidents Ricker of the BGC and Brushaber of Bethel College and Seminary have made it clear that the BGC and Bethel are no "safe havens" for open theism and that no new professors espousing such a view would be hired, and
Whereas an increasing number of districts and churches have taken action to affirm God's exhaustive foreknowledge and rejection of open theism, and

Whereas Dr. Ricker and the entire BGC Executive Ministry Team (Jerry Sheveland, Ron Larson, Ray Swatkowski, Lou Petrie and Steve Schultz) have already unanimously stated that open theism is not consistent with the BGC's biblical or historical understanding of God's omniscience, and

Whereas the Bible teaches there can be no real unity apart from the unity of the truth of God's person.

I therefore move that the following resolution be adopted by the delegates of the BGC annual meeting.

Be it resolved that we, the delegates of the Baptist General Conference (who are also the delegates of Bethel College and Seminary)* affirm that God's knowledge of all past, present and future events is exhaustive; and, we also believe that the "openness" view of God's foreknowledge is contrary to our fellowship's historic understanding of God's omniscience.

Gerald Priest
Offline
User
Joined: Mon, Jun 29 2009
Posts: 5
Can we be even clearer?

Kevin has been quite explicit in his criticism of “some fundamentalists” for incorrectly stereotyping conservative evangelicals as neo-evangelicals. However, two areas, I believe, need to be addressed. First of all, if it is improper to call conservative evangelicals neo-evangelicals, is it not also improper to refer to KJV-Only types as fundamentalists? By embracing the heresy of KJV-Onlyism (which usually carries with it the baggage of anti-Calvinism), do they not discredit themselves from being considered legitimate historic fundamentalists, even though they continue to claim the title? Furthermore, do we not have biblical grounds for separating from them? Indeed, many of us have.

Second, Kevin has been quite lavish in his praise of conservative evangelicals while castigating so-called fundamentalists. Yet he has spent very little time warning us about the pitfalls and problems of conservative evangelicalism. Dave Doran does a good job with this on his blog. Kevin commends fundamentalist institutions for welcoming conservative evangelical speakers, but offers no warning regarding the baggage some bring with them that could endanger our movement. While on the one hand “the Fundamentalist label is no guarantee of doctrinal fidelity,” neither is the conservative evangelical label a guarantee either. Indeed, this supposed fidelity to the gospel in their various associations is undermined by their lack of separation from that which compromises the gospel. Al Mohler, for example, is considered one of the darlings among conservative evangelicals, yet he has caused great harm to the gospel by his endorsement of men and movements that have confused and corrupted it (e.g., Billy Graham, Duke McCall, and most recently the Manhattan Declaration). Fundamentalists should rightly separate from him as a disobedient brother. And although MacArthur, Sproul, and others have courageously criticized such endorsements, they still invite Mohler to their platform, because, they say, he speaks for the gospel, even after he has endorsed the social gospel. (If the Manhattan Declaration does advocate another gospel is this not a heresy from which we should separate and likewise from those who endorse it?). And I might add that there are plenty of conservative evangelicals that promote some form of the social gospel, which, as we well know, was a major plank in the neo-evangelical agenda. Furthermore, has sufficient warning been sounded regarding what is at stake in welcoming men who are non-cessationists? Does permitting the continuation of revelation in the form of sign gifts not do harm to the gospel? Turning to still another example, is it really conducive to the health of fundamentalism by inviting John Piper to one of its meetings after he welcomed to his Desiring God conference the foul-mouthed Mark Driscoll? (not to mention the other problems with Piper that Doran cites). Does this not send a mixed signal of just what “desiring God” means? Do these things not matter any more, as it did to our fundamentalist forbears, who vigorously attacked them? And should we overlook the almost rabid contempt many conservative evangelicals express toward dispensationalism (which, as Kraus and Sandeen have noted, was born “from within the womb of orthodox Calvinism”)?

What I fear is that we may be allowing a Trojan horse into the fundamentalist camp. And after a while, if we keep going down this track, any significant difference between conservative evangelical and the fundamentalist institutions may disappear. Fundamentalists will become even “nicer” to the conservative evangelicals and they in turn will appear more “respectable” to the fundamentalists. It may be that some fundamentalists desire this. But then, would they not also have to forfeit the label?

Like Kevin, I would give credit to the conservative evangelicals where credit is due. I say “Amen” to everything they have done well in defense of the gospel of Christ. But not at the expense of discrediting fundamentalism for the valiant battles it has fought against some of the very things many conservative evangelicals are espousing which compromise the gospel, yet which many of the current generation do not seem to take very seriously.

__________________

Gerald Priest

Jim Peet
Jim Peet's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditorAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3507
More on Greg Boyd and BGC

Greg Boyd is no more representative of the BGC as a whole than Ruckman is of the IFB movement. Has Bethlehem Baptist ever invited Boyd to speak? (Answer = no!)

I'm not trying to be BGC defender here, but is it ethical to paint the BGC as some hotbed of Open-Theist apostasy.

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
Clearly known for . . .

Dr. Priest,

I ask myself . . .

1) What is fundamentalism clearly known for in Idaho? What is the flagship "independent, fundamental" church promoting?
2) What is fundamentalism clearly known for in the Intermountain West?
3) What is fundamentalism clearly known for in the West? What are the flagship churches in California promoting?

And then I ask myself what sources in the last five years have provided me the strongest encouragement and support that I desperately need for doing royal battle for scriptural inerrancy, for the distinctiveness and essense of the Triune God, for penal-substitutionary atonement, etc. and etc.

It has been one wild battle out here in the I-15 corridor. I take very seriously the battles that have been fought in the past. But at the same time I value those brothers today who build me up, who edify me in the fundamentals, while there is smoke and blood all around me in my trench.

thinking of heart issues,
et

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Jay
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditor
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 2304
What?
C. D. Cauthorne Jr. wrote:

Dr. Bauder belittles a stand on the blood of Christ which the World Congress of Fun[d]amentalists took in 1986 when they unanimously affirmed: "The precious Blood is indestructible. It cannot be anything else because of its permanence. The Blood is eternally preserved in heaven. Hebrews 12:24."

The WCF took a specific position that the physical blood of Jesus has been moved to heaven and is secure there? And we're wondering why so many leave for the Conservative Evangelical orbit? Wow.

I'm glad that I've never had any reason to get involved with the WCF if this is what they come up with and do.

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

Gerald Priest
Offline
User
Joined: Mon, Jun 29 2009
Posts: 5
Can we be more clear?

Todd:

I couldn't agree with you more on the edification part. I'm not that familiar with fundamentalism in your neck of the woods, but perhaps you could use your influence to strengthen it.

Best wishes!

__________________

Gerald Priest

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
Thanks Dr. Priest. I am just

Thanks Dr. Priest. I am just a foot soldier in the woods, but I do pray daily for discernment in the midst of all the smoke.

P.S. - I think that Dr. Bauder is speaking soon in a conference in SLC, right in the heart of the Corridor. I think it is a good thing. Iron sharpening Iron.

Best wishes to you in your service for the King!

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Jim Peet
Jim Peet's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditorAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3507
Time machine ..... 1986
Jay C wrote:

The WCF took a specific position that the physical blood of Jesus has been moved to heaven and is secure there?

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/blood.htm

Quote:

During the World Congress on Fundamentalism, which met on the BJU Campus, August 4-8, 1986, they passed a resolution declaring that Christ's actual blood is eternally preserved in heaven, where it is by some mystical means literally applied to each believer. According to the World Congress, such a rigidly literal view of Christ's blood is now to be considered a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, and they will break fellowship with anyone who denies it:

Quote:

The precious Blood is indestructible. It cannot be anything else because of its permanence. The Blood is eternally preserved in Heaven.

and furthermore,

Quote:

This congress . . . Rejects every attempt either to deny the literalness of the Blood or to minimize its efficacy and the necessity of its shedding in Christ's death on the cross. Such denial is a dangerous and devilish deception.

"Rejects every attempt . . . to deny the literalness of the Blood"? Do they now agree with Rome's insistence that "blood" in John 6:54-56 is to be understood in a literal sense? Notice that there is no exception to their rule; they reject "every attempt . . . to deny the literalness of the Blood."

Jim Peet
Jim Peet's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditorAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3507
When Bob Jones threw John MacArthur "under the bus"

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/blood.htm

Quote:

The controversy was originally ignited by a supposed "news" item written by Bob Jones, Jr. in the April 1986 issue of Faith For The Family (a Bob Jones University-sponsored magazine). Jones quoted some remarks MacArthur had originally made in a live Q&A session at Grace Community Church sometime in the early 1970s. MacArthur's comments had been transcribed and published in the May 1976 issue of the Grace Church newsletter "Grace Today." The Jones article cited the comments without any documentation, and without noting that they were from a ten-year-old source.

In the BJU article, Jones quoted MacArthur as saying, "It is not His bleeding that saved me, but His dying." Jones then cited Hebrews 9:22 ("without shedding of blood is no remission") and intoned, "MacArthur's position is heresy."

On June 13, 1986, MacArthur wrote to Bob Jones III, complaining that the magazine had taken snippets of his remarks out of context and deliberately made them seem sinister. MacArthur assured the magazine's editors that he absolutely affirms the necessity of the shed blood of Christ for atonement and explained that the point he was trying to make in the quoted excerpt was merely that the saving efficacy of Christ's blood is not because of some property in the blood itself, but rather because Christ had poured it out in death as a substitute for sinners.

Some are still waiting for Bob Jones (the institution) to retract and recant. But if the timing of their segregation statement is any indication, it may take another 20 years or more!

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
Ouch, Jim

Clear communication and love is always very helpful in the midst of controversy.

And speaking of clarity . . . I might be confused with being a KJV only fundamentalist. And I might be confused with being a conservative evangelical. And I might be confused with being a Calvinist.

But none of this concerns me nearly as much as being confused with the "fundamentalists" displayed on the front cover of the February 2010 National Geographic. (chuckling)

et

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5399
KB and far right
CDCauthorneJr wrote:

IMO, If Dr. Bauder got to personally know some of the folks in "the hyper-Fundamentalist right" (especially those nameless soldiers of the Lord serving in the trenches), he would realize that we both love and serve the same Savior.

I'm sure he knows a few... and has not denied that they love and serve the same Savior.

Paul J. Scharf
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jul 21 2009
Posts: 588
Should MacArthur be called a fundamentalist?
Bob T. wrote:

First John Piper would not be classified as a Conservative Evangelical. He is a classic Neo evangelical. Unlike MacArthur and some others he remains in a left of center evangelical denomination...Both Piper and MacArthur promote doctrines regarding Soteriology that are contrary to the Reformers and mainstream Reformed faith today while claiming to be appealing to the Reformed faith. The best analysis of this subject is presented in the book "Christ The Lord," edited by Michael Horton and with chapters written by all Reformed Calvinist Theologians. They take apart MacArthur's Gospel and claims that it is that of the Reformers or most contemporary Reformed theologians.

I think most of us are familiar with the subtleties of difference which exist with regard to the soteriology taught by both MacArthur and Piper, and many of us have expressed our disagreement with aspects of it -- whether it is in line with mainstream Reformed thought or not. Some in our camp also agree with MacArthur and Piper on these points.

I agree with Bob, however, in that I would draw a significant distinction between these two men, and wonder why we would have ever classified MacArthur as a "new evangelical" to begin with. By definition, he is a member of a "fundamentalist" association of churches (IFCA Int'l). If you read the VOICE magazine, you will see MacArthur's picture sprinkled through every issue -- right next to advertisements from institutions we would be quite familiar and comfortable with.

Perhaps the debate over MacArthur should not be whether he is a new evangelical or a conservative evangelical, but whether he is a conservative evangelical or a fundamentalist.

To me, that is a good example of why this kind of labeling is arbitrary, unhelpful and unwise -- at least to the extent that we base anything on it.

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

Bob T.
Offline
Former memberUser
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 418
A MESS IS A MESS BY ANY OTHER NAME !
Jim Peet wrote:

Greg Boyd is no more representative of the BGC as a whole than Ruckman is of the IFB movement. Has Bethlehem Baptist ever invited Boyd to speak? (Answer = no!)

I'm not trying to be BGC defender here, but is it ethical to paint the BGC as some hotbed of Open-Theist apostasy.

Jim,
Their resolution was to please concerned laity. The BGC has been a hotbed of Pastoral views regarding errant scriptures, egalitarianism, various creation views including the creation account being poetry or allegory, and yes some pastors who do endorse open theism. They specifically turned down a resolution to rebuke and or exclude the open theism view and those who hold it.. The BGC has been classic New Evangelical since the days of Millard Erickson teaching at Bethel in the 1970s, and before. When it comes to New Evangelical mentality you must watch both hands. One gives while the other performs the magic tricks. Biola University, in the 1980s had some who complained that there were history, sociology, Psychology, and Nursing professors who advocated abortion. They passed a strong resolution against abortion for the constituency and concerned alumni. However, no faculty were dealt with and some new faculty were later hired that endorsed abortion. The subject went under the radar as they pointed to their strong resolution. Same thing essentially happened on evolution in the science dept. However, I believe Biola is conservative when compared to Bethel. Greg Boyd remained teaching at Bethel after the resolution you referred to. Today he is Senior Pastor of one of the five largest BGC (Converge Worldwide) churches. It is right there in the Twin Cities area. There are a few even questioning whether Christ is the only way to salvation and some without the gospel may be saved by responding to God through general revelation. This is becoming a popular discussion in Evangelicalism today. Such schools as Azusa Pacific and Seattle Pacific (both Free Methodist) have some who hold such views.

John MacArthur issued a general warning about the Evangelical mess just last week that was noted here on SI. However, he did so while ignoring the fact his major errors regarding faith and the gospel are part of the mess.

Evangelicals were called a mess by an Evangelical. Fundamentalism has been called a mess by a Fundamentalist. Some Fundamentalists believe there is a big vase in heaven with some literal blood that we all need to be sprinkled with. KJVO Fundamentalists hold forth a Bible that is the only one for us to read in English. Nouthetites hold forth the bible as sufficient for everything that may effect human behavior and deny or suspect any science that threatens their view. Maybe we are in a big mess. Where do we go from here?

Well, we are going to Pismo Beach for a few days. Cool

Susan R
Susan R's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3437
I third the motion
Jamie Hart wrote:
Pastor Joe Roof wrote:
David Doran wrote:

I guess I find myself back at a spot where most of these discussions end for me these days. I think they are all handicapped by the use of labels from the 20th century which no longer fit and, therefore, don’t serve the discussion well. By thinking of three circles—new evangelicalism, conservative evangelicalism, and fundamentalism—all of the energy of the discussion goes into who’s in and who’s out. The unavoidable problem, though, is that nobody can define in and out at this stage of the game. So, where I differ with Bauder is that I don’t think that we can say anything definitive about a group. We need to look at individual men and ministries, find out what they believe and how they apply those beliefs, and then draw our conclusions.

Good stuff!

Amen and amen.

And they all said "Aye".

__________________

Susan R

Blogging at At Home and School and Shelf Discoveries
"Like" my Facebook page

Joel Shaffer
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 222
I find it interesting that we

I find it interesting that we can so easily judge the motives of why the BGC passed the resolution against open theism in 2000........

By the way, one of my friends who happens to be more liberal as an evangelical and a graduate of Bethel has bemoaned the fact that the BGC (Converge) has gotten much more conservative in their theology because of the likes of John Piper. He also is frustrated that the church planting arm of the BGC are not recruiting primarily from Bethel, but rather conservative evangelical institutions such as TEDS, Cedarville, and Cornerstone/GRTS. Jerry Sheveland, the president of Converge grew up in a GARBC church and went to Grand Rapids Baptist College (now Cornerstone) for his undergrad. The picture that Bob paints of the BGC might have been more true 15 years ago, but not today........

Matthew Christensen
Matthew Christensen's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Aug 12 2009
Posts: 17
Joel Shaffer wrote: By the
Joel Shaffer wrote:

By the way, one of my friends who happens to be more liberal as an evangelical and a graduate of Bethel has bemoaned the fact that the BGC (Converge) has gotten much more conservative in their theology because of the likes of John Piper. He also is frustrated that the church planting arm of the BGC are not recruiting primarily from Bethel, but rather conservative evangelical institutions such as TEDS, Cedarville, and Cornerstone/GRTS. Jerry Sheveland, the president of Converge grew up in a GARBC church and went to Grand Rapids Baptist College (now Cornerstone) for his undergrad. The picture that Bob paints of the BGC might have been more true 15 years ago, but not today........

My wife graduated from Bethel College in 1999 and Bethel Seminary in 2007. She can tell you first hand that they gone astray from orthodox Christianity over the recent years. Many "conservative evangelicals" will also testify to this and often do on Saturday morning radio. Jan Markell and Bob Dewaay come to mind. Bethel is now known for producing emergent church leaders, having professors teaching evolution and promoting eastern mystical practices.

Joel Shaffer
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 222
Matthew, What has happened at

Matthew,

What has happened at Bethel is why Converge (BGC) is recruiting from more conservative evangelical seminaries for all the church planting that they do....I am not denying that Bethel is more liberal than their denomination. I am maintaining that the churches, especially their church planting movement (which is one of the most aggressive in the nation) are more conservative than their school....and that the leadership of Converge and the churches have moved in a more conservative evangelical direction in the past 10-15 years.........

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 368
Straight Ahead!

Kevin,

Outstanding!

Straight Ahead!

jt

Matthew Christensen
Matthew Christensen's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Aug 12 2009
Posts: 17
Joel Shaffer
Joel Shaffer wrote:

Matthew,

What has happened at Bethel is why Converge (BGC) is recruiting from more conservative evangelical seminaries for all the church planting that they do....I am not denying that Bethel is more liberal than their denomination. I am maintaining that the churches, especially their church planting movement (which is one of the most aggressive in the nation) are more conservative than their school....and that the leadership of Converge and the churches have moved in a more conservative evangelical direction in the past 10-15 years.........

That may be true for some BGC churches but my wife was on staff for years at a BGC church and her parents are currently on staff at a different BGC church. Before we left my wife's BGC church people like Brian McLaren were quoted in a positive light from the pulpit. Also, there were may emergent materials being promoted by members of the church. This may have changed since because we brought this up with the pastors and they were looking into the emergent movement and where they should stand. Also, the staff would deny open theism but overall the church was not very conservative. As for my inlaw's church they currently use emergent and emerging material for study groups. As far as I know they would reject open theism but I wouldn't consider their church that conservative as well. I love my family and the members of our former BGC church but I certainly felt uncomfortable with where the theology was heading and feel more at home at Fourth.

Brian Ernsberger
Offline
Former member
Joined: Wed, Jun 17 2009
Posts: 26
Dr. Bauder seems to want to create a new measure for fellowship?

Is Dr. Bauder calling for a new measure for fellowship? As he closes this essay, he seems to be saying that if someone defends the gospel that they are okay, don't say anything against them, never mind their other errors, they are defending the faith. Sounds like the second, or third or fourth verse of a song that has been playing for decades. We once heard, don't say anything against Billy Graham he's winnings souls, don't you know. Or, don't say anything against Jerry Falwell, he's trying to bring together a moral majority for the good of America.

Others have posted well against what Dr. Bauder has stated. I will a bit here. Dr. Bauder states, "If we did not have conservative evangelicals to guard the borders, the real enemy would have invaded our camp long ago. Fundamentalism has exhibited a remarkable freedom from Open Theism, evangelical feminism, New Perspective theology, and other present-day threats to the gospel. The reason is not that Fundamentalists have kept the enemy at bay. The reason is that other thinkers—mainly conservative evangelicals—have carried the battle to the enemy. Conservative evangelicals are the heavy artillery, under the shelter of whose barrage Fundamentalists have been able to find some measure of theological safety."

Of course Fundamentalism has exhibited a remarkable freedom from those threats, they are heretical and Fundamentalists have seen them for what they are. The Conservative Evangelicals have been the ones to issue the books denouncing those errors because they came up in their camp (new evangelicalism, that is, I do not buy into Dr. Bauder's idea that the CEs are not part of New Evangelicalism) and needed to be addressed. Their doing so did nothing to keep me safe from these errors. I found out about these errors in Fundamentalist publications (an example would be from his own undergraduate alma mater). Which kind of leads me to something. If Bauder is so lauding the CEs for their sounding the alarm on these things, where was Dr. Bauder's pen? He readily lashes out at his fellow Fundamentalists for their lack, but what about his own lack? I find that he was a contributing editor to a book on the King James Only Issue. An issue he seems to hold in contempt amongst Fundamentalists in his essay. The old saying is still applicable, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Matthew Christensen
Matthew Christensen's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Aug 12 2009
Posts: 17
By the way, as a side note,

By the way, as a side note, one thing I found odd with BGC churches was the trend they took to remove "Baptist" from the name of the church. With the conference also making this step it makes me wonder if they would really consider themselves Baptists any longer. Also, I always questioned how tight of ties Piper's church has with the rest of the BGC churches. I never had a sense there being a strong bond. Also, I knew a person that attended Piper's church for a while and I question how much conviction Piper has to Baptist essentials such as Believer's Baptism. There was discussion for a while to allow membership to those that never had a Believer's Baptism.

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5399
"Don't say anything against them"?
Brian Ernsberger wrote:

As he closes this essay, he seems to be saying that if someone defends the gospel that they are okay, don't say anything against them, never mind their other errors, they are defending the faith.

This is not what he is saying. There's nothing even close to "never mind their other errors" and "don't say anything against them."

But I do think it would be fair to say that we do not know what would have happened in Fundamentalism without the CE's. Though there is evidence of doctrinal weakness in Fundamentalism in a number of places (and here & there some extremes), there was never any chance that institutions like Faith in Ankeny, DBTS, CBTS, BJU and others were going to embrace open theism, double-inspiration, new perspective on Paul, etc.
So I do think there's a bit of hyperbole going on there. But I believe KB is right that the CE's have been very helpful in general (and also to Fundamentalism) by tackling these issues head on with courage and clarity.

Note on BGC: might be good to move that discussion to another thread, though it is somewhat related.

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Quote: Is Dr. Bauder calling
Quote:

Is Dr. Bauder calling for a new measure for fellowship? As he closes this essay, he seems to be saying that if someone defends the gospel that they are okay, don't say anything against them, never mind their other errors, they are defending the faith.

That is a misinterpretation. Even in the address Kevin made to Fundamentalist Presbyterians in 2006 (http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&ser...), he noted that there were limits to their fellowship, and that there would be things that he would "say against them," at least doctrinally (as would they of him). Similar points would apply here, though I would note that Kevin would have more in common with Barret and the company there than he would with Piper and co. Kevin isn't arguing that nothing should ever be said negatively. However, he is arguing that we shouldn't put these conservative evangelical in the same category we might, say, a Roman Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, or Muslim. He is saying that there is room for favorable assessment and appreciation of people we have (significant) disagreements with. He is saying that principled disagreement ought not equate open hostility.

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Matthew J
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Sep 1 2009
Posts: 52
Should be interesting

Foundations Conference in Salt Lake City in April should be interesting as Kevin Bauder will be speaking about the fundamentalist's relationship to conservative evangelicals. (How is that for a shameless plug?) The Q&A time will be extra fun.

I am not sure why it is that we cannot view these men as co-laborers and still not agree with them on some important doctrine. John Piper has been a tremendous encouragement to me to be zealous for the Glory of God and delight of Christ in all areas of life. John Macarthur has encouraged me to be a diligent careful expositor of the Word, Dave Doran has taught me to seek to interpret and apply Scripture in a practical and clear manner. Tim Jordan has been a blessing to teach me to be transparent and open with the Word of God and pastoring. Mark Dever has helped shape my thinking regarding the supremacy of the local church and a healthy membership. CJ Mahany has influenced to be a real man of God standing for purity and holiness. Kevin Bauder has lifted my spirit with the thrill of the fine points of the Gospel message (I heard an excellent series by him on the particulars of the Gospel at a family camp). What do all these men have in common? Probably a lot and as we have already seen, they have a lot not in common. None of them are in my camp! I say that because I don't know which campground I am in. By the grace of God and his Holy Spirit I have heard things preached by each of these men I have disagreed with. Some of it, I have changed my thinking on because of their serious, thoughtful approach to Scripture. Others things, I have not changed my thinking on. But I praise God that in this information age, I can utilize these men's hearts and minds to better shepherd God's flock. They aren't my enemies, they are my brothers and my co-laborers, even if I have never met some of them. Why do I have to feel so uncomfortable if we disagree on important issues? I am God's servant and so are they, they and I will account to God for the lifetime of ministry. I praise God when the gospel is preached, regardless of which campground they are standing in when it is given.

Pastor Marc Monte
Pastor Marc Monte's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 59
Hope to comment fully soon

I wish I had time to post a lengthy comment on Bauder's recent article. However, our church is hosting our annual Bus Ministry and Soul Winning Conference. We had a great service last night with over 300 in attendance and 34 churches represented. Folks are getting fired up about soulwinning. Why mention this in this comment thread? Because, contrary to Kevin Bauder's opinion, it is the fundamentalists who are maintaining both sound doctrine and solid evangelism! And many of us are doing it with not the slightest thought of John Calvin. Imagine that...

__________________

Just clinging to my guns and religion...

www.faithbaptistavon.com

JohnBrian
JohnBrian's picture
Online
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 453
Matthew Christensen wrote: I
Matthew Christensen wrote:

I knew a person that attended Piper's church for a while and I question how much conviction Piper has to Baptist essentials such as Believer's Baptism. There was discussion for a while to allow membership to those that never had a Believer's Baptism.

The issue was over the fact that a Baptist who wanted to join a Presbyterian church would have his (credo) baptism accepted, but a Presbyterian who wanted to join a Baptist church would not have his (paedo) baptism accepted, and would have to be (re) baptized. There was a discussion on whether to accept the paedo into membership at Bethlehem, but I don't know what the church finally decided.

__________________

j...@g...l.com - my email
CanJAmerican - my blog
CanJAmerican - my twitter

JohnBrian
JohnBrian's picture
Online
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 453
Pastor Marc Monte
Pastor Marc Monte wrote:

...it is the fundamentalists who are maintaining both sound doctrine and solid evangelism! And many of us are doing it with not the slightest thought of John Calvin. Imagine that...

Yeah, fundamentalists have always done an excellent job of getting folks to profess faith, but not all professors are possessors. I used to be a champion soul-winner too, but now I repudiate numbers driven evangelism.

__________________

j...@g...l.com - my email
CanJAmerican - my blog
CanJAmerican - my twitter

Steven Thomas
Offline
User
Joined: Sat, Mar 6 2010
Posts: 6
Unintended Consequences

I consider Kevin a friend. We have crossed paths on more than one conference platform and I have gladly shared my pulpit with him. I always benefit from his ministry of the Word and careful cultural insight. Therefore, it is with some reluctance that I will deviate from the effusive praise that seems to be the dominant theme in most of the previous posts on this page.

“Let’s Get Clear On This” contains much with which I agree, but it also suffers from several problems. First, it is hard to see how the creation of a third category significantly improves our ability to classify accurately brothers on the right or the left. Dave Doran has adequately raised this concern, so I will not waste more ink on it here. Next, the one thing that is most “clear” is the imbalance of the tone in “Clear.” I looked in vain to find value ascribed to fundamentalism, yet the praise for conservative evangelicals was pervasive and enthusiastic. In reality, all of the named CEs bring to the table a dangerous theological perspective—the rejection of the biblical principle of separation from the erring brother. This position guarantees the eventual apostasy of their institutions and organizations.

My greatest concern has to do with the explicit approval given to “shared and targeted” initiatives between conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists. The implication seems to be that shared lecterns/pulpits are necessary in order to display appreciation for and benefit from the contributions these men have made to gospel ministry. Surely this is a false dilemma. I routinely place resources into my people’s hands, including books written by many of the men on Kevin’s list. I express deep appreciation for the contributions these men have made in targeted areas. But I do this in contexts that enable me to balance the appropriate praise with equally appropriate calls to full-orbed biblical discernment. But the moment I choose to share the pulpit with someone—a personal and public alignment, I mitigate (if not sacrifice) my ability to engage their views with critical analysis.

A common theme in SI discussions and other forums is the hypocrisy of separation from conservative evangelicals because heresy gets a pass within fundamentalism. It does not get a pass from all fundamentalists. I have been crying out for decades that inconsistency will damage our credibility. Some of us take this seriously. My ministry has never been discredited by the KJVO crowd because I have been preaching from the NIV for over 20 years. If I ask a speaker to accommodate my congregation by using the text they have in their laps, the problem seems to take care of itself . In 27 years I have never given a revivalist/evangelist a forum to share Keswick error or mysticism. Nor have I ever knowingly shared the pulpit with a preacher who publicly denounces Calvinistic soteriology. We have closed the door on a myriad of other inconsistencies by vigorously upholding the regulative principle of worship. The road to consistency is easy to find if you look for it, but let the traveler be warned: the toll can be costly. My point is that the hypocrisy of some cannot justify the compromise of others; there are other paths to follow.

There is no greater display of affinity than a shared pulpit. As some now display a measure of public unity with conservative evangelicals, unintended consequences are sure to follow. The intent of our leaders might not be “abandoning Fundamentalism” or “embracing conservative evangelicalism,” but a new generation will assume the latter and use it as an excuse to do the former. It is an undeniable certainty that many young men in our circle will view “Clear” as their certificate of emancipation. They are looking for the exit right now and imagine that Kevin is their doorman. The solution to our problems must not be found in broadening our circle (or erasing it), but in tightening it where warranted.

Unintended consequences are, after all, consequential nonetheless.

ST

__________________

Steven Thomas

JobK
JobK's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Thu, Oct 29 2009
Posts: 247
Presbyterianism

Regarding Presbyterians, what of those who have real issues with their doctrines regarding baptism and their views on the separation of church and the world (i.e. church and the state and the fallen culture)? Is that a secondary separation issue?

__________________

Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura
http://healtheland.wordpress.com

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Quote: Because, contrary to
Quote:

Because, contrary to Kevin Bauder's opinion, it is the fundamentalists who are maintaining both sound doctrine and solid evangelism! And many of us are doing it with not the slightest thought of John Calvin. Imagine that...

They are, however, apparently not confident that the emphasis on evangelism and sound doctrine they have might be enough to draw the crowd in itself...

Quote:

Prizes
- New suit to the pastor with the highest attendance point totals
- 10 points for return delegates, 15 points for first-time delegates
- Spin the wheel and win a new Bible, $100 bill, $50 bill and more...

Competitions
- CDL licensed drivers can compete in the bus driving competition
- All men 16 and over can compete in a men’s 3-on-3 basketball tournament following the Monday evening service. Bring your own team or be assigned to one.

See more details here: http://www.faithbaptistavon.com/calendar/Brochure.html

I don't mean to be snarky or dismissive by posting that, BTW. It does illustrate, however, that there is a significant divide in the conception of what constitutes "sound doctrine" (such as the example Kevin mentioned in his article). Marc Monte's church conference illustrates that further. There are going to be significant differences in the methodology and approaches between Monte or Jeff Fugate (one of Monte's conference speakers).

I cannot speak for Kevin here, but I will gladly speak for myself and my church when I say I have no desire to be numbered along people who look to Jeffrey Fugate as a champion of sound doctrine and sound evangelism. I see the problems with Piper- and there are several. However, I see that the problems of men like Fugate and his ilk are just as plenteous, if not more so, and on significant doctrinal issues. I, for one, would welcome an article to follow up this one of Bauder's articulating what the appropriate response should be towards people like Fugate and Monte who attempt to share the Fundamentalist label with us, but who hold little if any of the idea and ideals of Fundamentalism in common.

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Don Johnson
Offline
User
Joined: Fri, Feb 19 2010
Posts: 531
Greg Linscott wrote: It does
Greg Linscott wrote:

It does illustrate, however, that there is a significant divide in the conception of what constitutes "sound doctrine" (such as the example Kevin mentioned in his article). Marc Monte's church conference illustrates that further. There are going to be significant differences in the methodology and approaches between Monte or Jeff Fugate (one of Monte's conference speakers).

I cannot speak for Kevin here, but I will gladly speak for myself and my church when I say I have no desire to be numbered along people who look to Jeffrey Fugate as a champion of sound doctrine and sound evangelism.

Hi Greg

Likewise, I have no desire to be numbered in company with such foolishness.

But isn't that what KB is attempting to do with these paragraphs?

Kevin Bauder wrote:

To be sure, significant differences continue to exist between Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. Those differences, however, are less serious than the ones that exist between the various camps within Fundamentalism. For example, many Fundamentalist churches and institutions have capitulated to the error of King James Onlyism. Many Fundamentalists are willing to tolerate and even idolize arrogant and egotistical leaders. Many Fundamentalists are willing to live with doctrinal shallowness and trivial worship in their pulpits and in their hymnals. Many Fundamentalists continue to believe that manipulative Revivalism will produce vibrant Christians. Who could deny that these matters are serious?

Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well. Nevertheless, the errors that are tolerated within Fundamentalism are every bit as great as the errors that were committed by the new evangelicalism. They are certainly greater than the differences that exist between mainstream, historic Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals.

Yes, he has a little weasel room with the line: "Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well."

Yes we do reject these errors, but the way this is presented is that we don't reject them enough. We 'tolerate' them. Right... sure we do.

__________________

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
fundamentalist label

Let Fugate and Monte keep the label, Greg.

The largest, independent Baptist fundamentalist church in Idaho ( http://tvbc.org/index.htm ) can continue to keep the "independent Baptist fundamentalist" label.

I can acknowledge Pastor Rick DeMichele in Idaho (or Pastor Marc Monte or Fugate) as brothers that love the Lord as I do and fellow soldiers in the trenches, but we just won't ever share pulpits because of ministry differences. But I will also acknowledge Paul Thompson, SBC Idaho pastor who was released from Haiti, as a brother who loves the Lord and as a fellow soldier in the trenches, too.

I intently desire for the Mormon community to genuinely see and know my love for my brother. This is the greatest Christian apologetic for a Christian movement of any sort and a future fundamentalism that I want to be a part of.

thinking of heart issues,
et

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Joseph
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Jun 10 2009
Posts: 177
RIP

The criticism of Bauder's article to the effect that it's unsufficiently appreciative of Fundamentalism is baseless.

It is a necessary result of the limitations of writing, particularly in polemical contexts, that "balance" is never going to characterize a single, few-hundred word essay. Most essays are not intended to be balanced because they do not (unless their author is stupid or a very bad writer) intend to express everything he or she thinks. If they are good, they will make one point very clearly.

So, if you move the criticism to its proper context, viz. Bauder's writings as a whole and his ministry as a whole, and then say, "Bauder is insufficiently appreciative of Fundamentalism" the criticism is seem for what it is: a baseless and absurd descrption of a man who has devoted his life to pastoring Fundamentalist churches and now running a Fundamentalist seminary as well as defending historic Fundamentalism in his writing, speaking, and teaching.

People on SI have a general sense of my cast of mind towards much of Fundamentalilsm, and they know I disagree with Dr. Bauder on some issues, as I'm sure everyone does, but I think it's imperative to be fair critics. Most authors know their work will be badly criticized, with the most common bad criticism directed at something the original essay was never meant to accomplish. So, I'm sure Bauder is unsurprised, but I find it impossible to sit back and watch this particular criticism, coming from good and well-intenioned people, no doubt, stand; it's baseless, and we ought to know better.

People should better learn to understand the context and genre and attendant limitations of the writings they assess; we would all be better off for it. So, to that end, perhaps we can put to rest the idea that the president of a Fundamentalist seminary is not sufficiently appreciative of Fundamentalism because he does not sing its praises or add long caveats (which ruin good writing, as any essayists knows) in every popular essay he writes.

Jay
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditor
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 2304
Riiiiggghhhhttttt....
Pastor Marc Monte wrote:

I wish I had time to post a lengthy comment on Bauder's recent article. However, our church is hosting our annual Bus Ministry and Soul Winning Conference. We had a great service last night with over 300 in attendance and 34 churches represented. Folks are getting fired up about soulwinning. Why mention this in this comment thread? Because, contrary to Kevin Bauder's opinion, it is the fundamentalists who are maintaining both sound doctrine and solid evangelism! And many of us are doing it with not the slightest thought of John Calvin. Imagine that...

Because you're either pro-witnessing and pro-discipleship, or you're liberal. Gee, I was thinking that John MacArthur doesn't witness either, especially not on Larry King Live. Or because John Piper pleads with people to be saved at the closing session of Resolved 08 because it fattens his paycheck.

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Don Johnson wrote: But isn't
Don Johnson wrote:

But isn't that what KB is attempting to do with these paragraphs?

...

Yes, he has a little weasel room with the line: "Of course, many Fundamentalists reject these errors as well."

Yes we do reject these errors, but the way this is presented is that we don't reject them enough. We 'tolerate' them. Right... sure we do.

Don,

Are you saying that Kevin is still trying to include himself in those who tolerate the extreme positions he mentions? I'm confused.

As far as "us" tolerating them (the last line of your last post), I will also observe that Chuck Phelps is included alongside Jeff Fugate at Monte's conference as a speaker.

Just sayin'.

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
thanks

thanks Joseph

Fair critique is a Christian virtue and a real discipline, which I am continually learning. I need this kind of character built in my life.

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Quote: Let Fugate and Monte
Quote:

Let Fugate and Monte keep the label, Greg.

Well, I have no control over who keeps it and who doesn't. That being said, I still believe that "Fundamentalist" still has usefulness, and I still use it to describe where our church is in relation to others in our town and area, even as I also distinguish what we are not.

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Paul J. Scharf
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jul 21 2009
Posts: 588
Nice Bible picture!
Todd Wood wrote:

The largest, independent Baptist fundamentalist church in Idaho ( http://tvbc.org/index.htm ) can continue to keep the "independent Baptist fundamentalist" label.

I love the picture of the Bible on this page, though: http://tvbc.org/about.htm

Bet it is not really a 1611!

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
Fundamentalist label

Well, Greg, I don't think that the term, "Fundamentalist" will die off. Evangelicals will continue to use this term; and likewise, this word continues to be meaningful for the 60 LDS bishops in my town. It is a very hot term in the English language in 2010. Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, this word can be associated with deadly pride, ugly independence, and law-breaking character and not necessarily Christian truth, humility, submission, and love.

I will continue to use the term because that is what my enemies call me, but I like the term "Foundations", too, mentioned by Matt up in #50.

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
Paul

The only ones that might not call me a "fundamentalist" are some other "independent, Baptist fundamentalists".

It is ironic.

There are a lot of battles that I face in 2010. I need discerment in picking which ones to fight, which real enemy that God wants me to be fighting.

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Jay
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditor
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 2304
@ Joseph

Joseph, that was an excellent and well thought out post. Thanks for sharing it.

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

Brian Ernsberger
Offline
Former member
Joined: Wed, Jun 17 2009
Posts: 26
Aaron, hyperbole going on?

Aaron, you commented on my last posting, "So I do think there's a bit of hyperbole going on there." Really? Maybe you should read Dr. Bauder's essay again. Here is a bit of his closing,

"If we attack conservative evangelicals, then we attack the defense of the faith. We attack indirectly the thing that we hold most dear, namely, the gospel itself, for that is what they are defending. We should not wish these brothers to falter or to grow feeble, but rather to flourish. We must do nothing to weaken their hand in the face of the enemies of the gospel."

As others have posted in this thread, where is Dr. Bauder's expressed concern for the theological baggage that these men bring? It's nowhere to be seen. While I agree that some of what these men have written has been profitable, there is far too much baggage to mute our criticism of them. Some keep pointing the finger at those within Fundamentalism with their bad baggage, and say, see no one is criticizing them, really? I've seen numerous postings bringing criticism to these, and rightfully so. And those criticisms far outweigh anything posted against the CEs, even in this thread.

Bauder has this assessment of CEs, "Conservative evangelicals are the heavy artillery, under the shelter of whose barrage Fundamentalists have been able to find some measure of theological safety." But I'm the one given to hyperbole. I must be missing something, Aaron.

Don Johnson
Offline
User
Joined: Fri, Feb 19 2010
Posts: 531
Greg Linscott wrote: Are you
Greg Linscott wrote:

Are you saying that Kevin is still trying to include himself in those who tolerate the extreme positions he mentions? I'm confused.

Now, Greg, I think you know what I am saying.

I am not exactly sure where Kevin is trying to include himself. That part is unclear.

Greg Linscott wrote:

As far as "us" tolerating them (the last line of your last post), I will also observe that Chuck Phelps is included alongside Jeff Fugate at Monte's conference as a speaker.

Just sayin'.

Well, that bothers me a good deal. I have to say I hadn't noticed that in my first glance at the link you provided. But of course Chuck will have to speak for himself.

__________________

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 331
Brian

I can have strong disagreements with both fundamentalists (Fugate, Monte, DeMichelle, etc., etc., etc.) and conservative evangelicals (Driscoll, Piper, etc., etc., etc.) in how the precious baggage of truth (the faith) is either packaged or proclaimed (or allowed in their ministries to be packaged or proclaimed).

But why do we spend so much time in independent, Baptist fundamentalism concerned over how much we should be sounding the alarm and critiquing and separating from Baptist fundamental brothers and Baptist conservative evangelical brothers when secularists, and atheists, and religious others, and liberal emergents are pumping out influential books week after week after week after week after week after week in our country in direct support of the real enemy.

Brother, you live in the West (and have lived in the intermountain west). You know what foot soldiers face. There are apologists (non-Christian orthodox) who are seeking to completely dismantle everything that we hold precious . . . the very fundamentals of our Christianity . . . the very foundations of our Christian lives . . . the very pillar and ground of the truth - the church. Thank God this can't happen. It is all God's work. And God can't be stopped.

But I thank God for men, both fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals, in the theological tools that they have provided for my little workshop in dealing with the raging controversies over the (1) Triune God, (2) creation ex nihilo, (3) two natures of Christ, (4) inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture, (5) man's depraved nature and original sin, (6) all the facets of the gospel and full salvation- election, predestination, propitiation, psa, sanctification, glorification, etc. (7) and so forth.

The community of Antioch called those believers "Christians" because all they talked about with great joy was Christos, Christos, Christos, Christos . . .

In 2010, America will probably be calling a certain group of "Christians" in our country "fundamentalists" or "foundationalists" or "Bible-believing essentialists" or whatever because that is all we want to talk about with great joy - the very truths on God and His gospel that set us free from chains.

I rejoice with those brothers in America that have spent a good portion of their adult life in focusing and meditating and preaching and teaching and lecturing and writing and defending with all their hearts on one of those fundamentals. When in the desert, I will lap up the water, whether it comes from a KJVO fundamentalist or a CE. My need for water is so vital.

Brian, while I sit in the trenches with you, I sincerely don't mind the sincere, loving critique by Bauder given to our own foot soldiers and generals and the sincere, loving appreciation expressed to foot soldiers and generals outside of our trench. I have gained much protective firing from those outside our trench to shield my heart in Christ. I am thankful.

And if the American culture wants to eventually hang us all in this country - I will hang with any brother or sister who fought for a fundamental on our God and the gospel.

earnestly thinking of heart issues,
et

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 368
More later

I'm working on a full response.....just a short response right now.

When you increase the requirements for any koinonia to 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even man-constructed systems of belief, you are a wisker away from developing into neo-pharisaism. You actually may have already crossed the border.

Kevin is right on the mark. This is the corrective American Conservative Christianity has needed for years. I don't think any of us are saying across the board co-ministry. We are saying occasional based on the level of agreement or disagreement.

More later!

Straight Ahead!

jt

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5399
Brian E wrote: where is Dr.
Brian E wrote:

where is Dr. Bauder's expressed concern for the theological baggage that these men bring? It's nowhere to be seen.

I'll help you find it (-: ...

Kevin Bauder wrote:

Anti-dispensationalism seems to be more widely characteristic of conservative evangelicalism than it is of Fundamentalism, though it is less vitriolic than the anti-Calvinism of some Fundamentalists. Toleration of Third-Wave charismatic theology is widely accepted among conservative evangelicals but universally rejected among Fundamentalists. Conservative evangelicals are willing to accommodate the more contemporary versions of popular culture, while Fundamentalists restrict themselves to older manifestations. Most importantly, Fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals still do not agree about what to do with Christian leaders who make common cause with apostates.

This is really kind of alot of "expressed concern" for a short essay that is actually about something else entirely. Let's remember that the first couple of paragraphs establish what the essay is about. It's a reaction to the bad habit of binary thinking... and sloppy criticism of CEs.

By the way, my point about hyperbole was in reference to his, not yours. I think he overstates his point in a few places.

As for the closing the paragraphs, they don't erase the rest of the piece or what Bauder teaches about anti-dispensationalism, non-cessationism, non-separatism, etc. on a regular basis.

But I do think you (and someone else who mentioned tone imbalance) have accurately observed an imbalance. That is, I think it's fair to suppose that Kevin is more hot and bothered about what Fundamentalists to his right are doing than he is about what CE's slightly to his left are doing. I'm mindreading a bit there, which is always hazardous, but if I were him, it would bug me more, too. Why? Several reasons. For one, we're supposed to be "the good guys," who have the Bible down better than the other guys. For another, the weaknesses of a movement/cohort/network you are in are more constantly present than those of a group you are not in. In some ways it's analogous to why it's more upsetting when your relatives come over and misbehave than when a guy two towns over you bump into once in a while at a conference misbehaves.

In any case, that's just the emotional factor. Surely we can let the guy be as annoyed as he's inclined to be. I'm not saying tone is completely unimportant, but it's far less so than the substance.

Pastor Marc Monte
Pastor Marc Monte's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 59
Great Conference

I honestly didn't intend my post to garner so much attention, but I'm glad folks checked out our conference. We had an interesting array of speakers, didn't we? All of them are fundamental, independent Baptists--from several "camps." All of them want to win souls, preach Christ, and build great churches to the glory of God. These are sincere fundamentalists with a real burden to reach the lost. Brother Bobby Roberson, pastor of Gospel Light Baptist Church in Walkertown, NC, was our closing speaker. He's faithfully served the Lord there for 54 years. What a great message, and what a great ministry! Some of the reactions to our conference are symptomatic of the anti-fundamentalist leanings on this blog. The diversity of speakers on our platform demonstrates that I'm not into politics and institutional loyalities. We just had a good old camp-meeting with some of the independent, fundamental Baptist Gospel Greats. Hundreds were blessed and challenged to be soulwinners. Holy vows were made at the old-fashioned altar call. It was a glorious time in the house of God. (By the way, you can use the word "soulwinning" without being numbers driven. Our church is doctrine driven. Check out the preaching at http://faithbaptistavon.sermonaudio.com.

Wish you had been here!

Now, just smile and pray for us simpletons in Indiana. We're going soulwinning!

__________________

Just clinging to my guns and religion...

www.faithbaptistavon.com

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 368
You don't need a hug - you need a kiss!

It's stupid to write long posts here at SI. You just give everyone more stuff to hang you with. This is why I usually just post a thought or two. Oh well.....Here goes:

What has always bothered me.....and I mean almost always: From the time I was about 16 or 17 and reading church history and thinking through the issues.....is how in the world Fundamentalism could have the variety it had in the first 30 years, and there be at least some kind of "relationship" and it's "praise the Lord my brother!" Now, for the last 30 years, some are suggesting - no variety! If you don't fit into this "steel grid" it's "sorry my brother....you're out!" Well...it didn't make sense to me when I was a teenager - at 41 it's still is not at all clear.

Rewind. Conservative Evangelicals. These are the guys going "toe to toe" with left-wing and eccuminical evangelicalism, "out and out" liberalism, dangerous "new gospel," weird Christological Charismaticism (Odd Faith movement - not the variety of Piperism or Grudem-ism that frankly you can find examples of if you look deep enough in the Fundamentalists lake [btw]), not to mention every bed-brother of evangelical postmodernity [i.e. emergent movement "vis-a-vis" Bixby's emergent middle that is anything but emergent church!]). Where are the fundamentalists? Well....we are fellowshipping with the three other guys that part their hair the same way we do. We meet for a nice sub-movement chat where we determine to write resolutions so we can brow beat the other fundamentalists that don't think or sing or preach or whatever....just like we do (but of course we are not denominational)! We'll even call them names! Those "pseudo-fundamentalists" bad-guys! And why do we do this? Because to open our arms to conservative evangelicalism is the first step towards loosing the gospel? Have you guys actually been reading what's happening in the conservative evangelical world the last 15 years? If anything the conservative side of the movement is doing two things - 1) It's starting to take back sections of the movement as a whole, discharging the liberal-evangelicals to main-line "bases" and 2) Is becoming more and more interested in personal and ecclesiastical separation. In short it's getting more and more conservative and Biblical in the main. I'm done waiting. They've walked far enough and close enough I'm willing to open my arms to some of them. I have more in common with some of them and they with me, than I do with some of you! Some of you are isolationist and worldly while they are "koinonia-minded" and separate (oddly enough!). MacArthur has not replaced Biblical salvation with a works salvation. He's just emphasizing repentance. To some of you who have down-played the volitional side (i.e. the "submission" part of saving faith), it sounds like works-salvation. This is nothing more than the gospel as spelled out in the Gospels (Repent if you want to be in the Kingdom) as well as James (Saving Faith results in a fruit of works). How in the world can you guys read works-salvation in that? Stop reading Lou and start reading you’re Bibles. To be fair, there have been a few passages that Mac has read his understanding of Lordship salvation that I don't see in the passage. It is true that one can emphasize repentance disproportionate to faith that you end up switching sanctification with justification. If you read John in context and widely, I don't believe John has crossed those lines consistently enough to make the charge that he has a false gospel. Remember his over-emphasis at times is within the context of fighting the cheap-grace, non-repentance views of Hodge et al.

Another point - Some of you men cry "foul!" evertime some CE or Fund is not as "dispensational" as you, or not as "cessationist" as you. Fundamentalism in the first generation had a boat-load of variety on the "Holy Spirit - Church - hermeneutics" topic(s)....and yet for the sake of the gospel "There was a cause!" Let me also remind you the apostles were sort of wrong on the whole Dispensational - Kingdom thing and yet Jesus didn't call them neoevangelicals neither did Jesus practice separation from them.....for that matter he didn't even separate from Judas (hmmmmm?). So these early fundamentalists wouldn't hang together at the denominational level, but they sure loved each other at the "such n such" fundamentalist conference.....until they started fighting for control. Listen to Dr. Bob Snyder's presentation during the Standpont conference we just had (www.standpointconference.com).

Gideon was right when he narrowed the field because God narrowed the field. You guys are narrowing the field on your own. Because of why? Theological consistency? My word. I think not. It's hard to trust some who practice this kind of "all-or-nothing" kind of fellowship because one guy who is a Baptist, separatist, Calvinist, fundamentalist will have nothing to do with another Baptist, separatist, fundamentalist all because of a single disagreement in methodology. This kind of isolationism makes me ill. I'm confident God is also ill with this kind of thing. I digress.

Here's what you have -

1. You don't want to open your arms to these guys because they work with people longer than you would? Well.....Jesus would work longer with some of these than you would! That's a fact. When Piper stays in the BGC it's mostly so he can fight to keep the Gospel clear in a denomination he loves and has been associated for decades. For him to leave is AWOL toward the gospel. He has verses that makes him stay and fight (just like our guys had verses that made them fight for years, in some cases decades). In his view, enough of the BGC still has the gospel, Christ and justification to stay. What about Mohler and Dever and others in the SBC. The conservative resurgence speaks for itself. Look, if the Northern Baptist had tasted half of the conservative success in the 20's & 30's that the SBC has had in the last two decades their might not have been an IFCA, GARBC or even an FBF!

2. I'm happier with Dever than Mohler. But I'm thrilled with what's happened at Southern. You have to remember how much has been gained. I'm willing to take a let's see attitude with Mohler. Frankly many conservative evangelicals who are more "Type C" are limiting their contact with the Mohler-types because of the type of differences that come up like Manhattan. In fairness Mohler's justification for signing Manhattan was not at all the same type of sentiment behind NE. Read it again. I would not have signed, but I understand why he did.

3. The conservative evangelicals actually practice something Fundamentalists say they do. They practice separation and unity based on direction and over-all ministry. They don't simply remove fellowship because of this incident or that, but because of a consistent practice. Mohler does not have the same spirit of early NE. If that was the sake he would not have kicked the liberals out of the seminary!!! Because of his continued connection with certain "stuff", other CE's are adjusting their connection with him. It took us how many decades to adjust our relationships - and you want to demand a certain conformity to our mess in just a few years? You have to be kidding me.

4. These guys will work out their "inter-evangelical relationships." I'm an "outsider" and I can see the adjustments between the Shepherd's Conference type guys - (far right CE - CE type A) with the T4G type guys - (main CE - CE type B) and then the left CE guys - Gospel Coalition types (left CE - CE type C). I understand the overlap between the Shepherd's Fellowship, T4G and the Gospel Coalition, but you can also see the differences. They are working out their own relationships one with another. I'm willing to give them time to figure it out and encourage the "like-minded" in the mean time. Some of you aren't even patient enough to work through differences with your fundamentalists brethren, so you noise about these guys not yet solving this sort of rings empty...very empty! To you guys I'm tempted to say "Be Warm - Be Filled - Be Gone!" But being loving and all I'll try to reach out to you....again.

5. Most CE are careful about their music. Even when they use up-tempo stuff, most of these guys are careful about what comes into their ministry. Don't kid yourself on the Garlock or even Bauder view of music. You have lost the battle - period. I bet you 80% or higher in your ministries do not agree with you guys on separating from other ministries because of the music thing. I'm not saying "give up!" I actually think it's virtuous for you to be passionate about your understanding of music, so have at it! I don't even have a problem with your doing what you do in your local church.....obviously if the congregation allows that then praise God. This is another example though of you taking an internal belief within your own congregation and making that a test of fellowship beyond the Scriptures and beyond your congregation. My bet is you would have been uncomfortable with Worship in the OT covenant community and probably in the early church. I bet you we'll dance in heaven...don't worry your new feet will handle the rhythm!

I'm going to try to not say anything else after this post. This will make friend and foe happy. Love keeping everyone happy!

A few random thoughts in the midst of the moment. Enjoying the group hug. Hey these CE actually smell better than the fundamentalists do....once more they hug back! I do understand that it's hard for some in the Mid-West to enjoy a brotherly hug. It's not like you guys have allot of affection to begin with. You pile on top of that German/Scandinavian/Separatist base 3 feet of permafrost, plus 5 months of no sunshine. I'd be grumpy too. Man, some of you need more than a hug....you need a Holy Kiss! Smile

Straight Ahead!

jt

Steve Newman
Offline
User
Joined: Thu, Jun 4 2009
Posts: 108
A practical observation or two...

It's interesting (as always) to see the different sides of the issues. This is a generally positive contribution and helps think through the issues. For that, I am thankful.
We are not going to solve all the problems of the fundamentalist (or evangelical) world in this arena. However, I think there are some practical issues that do come into play.
There seems to be no limit of interpretation of what is said, with people putting words in each other's mouths. What can we "clearly" say?
1. There is undoubtedly much more fragmentation of both evangelicals and fundamentalists. Both movements are much less uniform than in times past.
2. The "status quo" in both movements have become much more polarized: Evangelicals to the left, and fundamentalists to the right. There are things in these polarizations that are blatantly unsound.
3. Clearly, there is much more of a middle of disaffected people in both movements, and rightly so.
There are both positives and negatives to the present situation. On the positive side, maybe once and for all we can get out of the "people following" business. While we need strong leadership, it is also true that we need to become people of our own convictions and not fall into personality cults. However, on the negative side, it is helpful to attach to some sort of movement in order to have some support institutions and identification. It is often personally difficult to change directions.
Can one find a position that is at once doctrinally pure, honest and faithful in practice, and yet strong enough to build momentum? I have a lot of concerns about this.
What factors are working against this? One is the seemingly intractable polarization that we see going on. Another is the well-chronicled tendency of drift among institutions, particularly colleges and seminaries. They don't stay where they were put. As a result, there is continuing re-invention going on.
Where are things headed? The best answer is this: How are we tending our part of the picture? Where are the things we are given stewardship of headed?

Paul J. Scharf
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jul 21 2009
Posts: 588
A thought about music...

Joel Tetreau wrote:

"Don't kid yourself on the Garlock or even Bauder view of music. You have lost the battle - period."

As a matter of observation, I would have to say this is very true. I know that some Fundamentalists are still fighting the battle over PowerPoint, but I think that not only is that battle long-since-lost, so is the battle over music, as Joel explains.
My point here is not to say whether that is good or bad -- just that it is true.
The churches which are still attracting people with traditional music are the ones which are able to do it with excellence. Interestingly, it seems to me that excellence is also the key to churches which are attracting people with contemporary music.
As a former liturgical Lutheran who loves the pipe organ, you don't have to convince me of the value of traditional worship. I think there are several reasons that the "traditional" music arguments in Fundamentalism did not pack a real punch, though.
For one, most fundamental Baptists do not sing traditional hymns anyway -- they consider 19th-century camp meeting songs to be "traditional hymns."
Secondly, they approached the topic from the perspective of standards rather than any deep theological, confessional or philosophical base.
These are broad generalities, of course, and forgive me if I am going off topic. Joel's comment just perked my attention and I thought I would add my two cents. I think these comments do relate to the overall discussion we are having.

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5399
Oh no... music!
Quote:

or one, most fundamental Baptists do not sing traditional hymns anyway -- they consider 19th-century camp meeting songs to be "traditional hymns."
Secondly... rather than any deep theological, confessional or philosophical base.

What if we all did? I mean if both these two problems were eliminated permanently starting this Sunday, what would change? I think we'd still see whatever element is "attracted by" some kind of music going somewhere else. Attraction just doesn't generally flow along the depth axis these days (has it really ever?)

But yes, we're off topic. Paul, want to start a thread on that somewhere and link to it from here?

In the interest of moving back toward topic...

Joel wrote:

1. You don't want to open your arms to these guys because they work with people longer than you would? Well.....Jesus would work longer with some of these than you would! That's a fact. When Piper stays in the BGC it's mostly so he can...

There's a nifty radio show I pick up from St.Paul where the hosts hit buttons triggering recordings for certain things callers say (or news reports say). One of them is "Uh... we don't know that." You're reminding me of that lot, Joel. I mean, I can't prove you're wrong, but it's pretty hard to prove Jesus would "work longer" with some of these guys than anybody else would. And I'm not sure Piper has said he stays in the BGC "mostly so" anything.
Don't mean to nitpick, but you're making alot of assumptions in your post. But I get that these are your opinions and you are certainly entitled to them.

(But I much appreciate the sympathy for our climatic situation up here in snow country!!)

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 368
Assumptions based on observations

Aaron,

My assumptions are informed. Hey, the readers can take them or not. I say what I see. Shalom my man!

jt

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Quote: Some of the reactions
Quote:

Some of the reactions to our conference are symptomatic of the anti-fundamentalist leanings on this blog. The diversity of speakers on our platform demonstrates that I'm not into politics and institutional loyalities. We just had a good old camp-meeting with some of the independent, fundamental Baptist Gospel Greats.

Marc,

The diversity of speakers demonstrates that you are into a specific segment of independent Baptists- namely, revivalist, King James Version defending, and anti-Calvinist. That's fine, and that is your right to lead as you believe and are convicted.

However, that does not make you the one true Fundamentalist, nor does it make those who differ from you anti-Fundamentalist in sentiment. You had a decidedly Baptist platform. That's not a problem for me in this discussion, but you can't say that is synomynous with a decidedly Fundamentalist one- at least historically. Fundamentalism has historically been a big enough tent to accommodate a much more diverse classification. I am decidedly a Baptist, and intend to remain so. However, I value relationships I have made with men in other denominations. I regularly used to share coffee in Maine with an 90 year old Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who studied under John Murray at Westminster, and rejoice in a common Savior- though we both understood that we couldn't do much more than that because of the things that divided us. I have been privileged to sit under the preaching ministry of John McKnight- a Fundamentalist and a Methodist. I had a missionary here last night sent from Deer River Bible Church in northern Minnesota- imagine that! A Baptist having a Bible church guy in! Why, last year, we even had a Free Presbyterian preach here (Dr. Michael Barrett).

Level you anti-Fundamentalist charges all you want. I understand that Fundamentalism not only entails separation, but implies a degree of unity with those who labor for a pure Gospel in their own contexts. My primary identity as a pastor and church leader is Baptist- in fact, I would get more specific and talk about a separatist, moderate to strong Calvinist, traditional dispensationalist Baptist. But I also understand that my beliefs and convictions do not and should not deter me from fellowship with Christian brothers who do not share all of those specifics- though they might and do limit that fellowship.

(BTW- I say this only to make the point that your Fundamentalism is much more sectarian than you care to admit. I am not interested in debating whether or not either of us is right in the specifics I listed. Anyone intending to chase that rabbit will do so without me tagging along.)

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 368
Minnesota Bible Churches

Greg,

I know that church from my MN days. Good church. You have to check out the Northern Gospel Fellowship - also called the Northern Gospel Mission. Mildred Chapel in Backus was in the mix in the past. Another great church in that group is the Bible Church in Ray, MN. I think that one was named "Northwoods Bible Church." Ray is 15 miles outside of the Falls. There are dozens of great Bible Churches all over MN. Thrilled your making contact with a few.

Shalom!

jt

JasonR
Offline
User
Joined: Thu, Jul 30 2009
Posts: 14
Greg Linscott wrote: . I, for
Greg Linscott wrote:

. I, for one, would welcome an article to follow up this one of Bauder's articulating what the appropriate response should be towards people like Fugate and Monte who attempt to share the Fundamentalist label with us, but who hold little if any of the idea and ideals of Fundamentalism in common.

Greg Linscott wrote:
Quote:

Some of the reactions to our conference are symptomatic of the anti-fundamentalist leanings on this blog. The diversity of speakers on our platform demonstrates that I'm not into politics and institutional loyalities. We just had a good old camp-meeting with some of the independent, fundamental Baptist Gospel Greats.

Marc,

The diversity of speakers demonstrates that you are into a specific segment of independent Baptists- namely, revivalist, King James Version defending, and anti-Calvinist. That's fine, and that is your right to lead as you believe and are convicted.

However, that does not make you the one true Fundamentalist, nor does it make those who differ from you anti-Fundamentalist in sentiment. You had a decidedly Baptist platform. That's not a problem for me in this discussion, but you can't say that is synomynous with a decidedly Fundamentalist one- at least historically. Fundamentalism has historically been a big enough tent to accommodate a much more diverse classification. I am decidedly a Baptist, and intend to remain so. However, I value relationships I have made with men in other denominations. I regularly used to share coffee in Maine with an 90 year old Orthodox Presbyterian pastor who studied under John Murray at Westminster, and rejoice in a common Savior- though we both understood that we couldn't do much more than that because of the things that divided us. I have been privileged to sit under the preaching ministry of John McKnight- a Fundamentalist and a Methodist. I had a missionary here last night sent from Deer River Bible Church in northern Minnesota- imagine that! A Baptist having a Bible church guy in! Why, last year, we even had a Free Presbyterian preach here (Dr. Michael Barrett).

Level you anti-Fundamentalist charges all you want. I understand that Fundamentalism not only entails separation, but implies a degree of unity with those who labor for a pure Gospel in their own contexts. My primary identity as a pastor and church leader is Baptist- in fact, I would get more specific and talk about a separatist, moderate to strong Calvinist, traditional dispensationalist Baptist. But I also understand that my beliefs and convictions do not and should not deter me from fellowship with Christian brothers who do not share all of those specifics- though they might and do limit that fellowship.

(BTW- I say this only to make the point that your Fundamentalism is much more sectarian than you care to admit. I am not interested in debating whether or not either of us is right in the specifics I listed. Anyone intending to chase that rabbit will do so without me tagging along.)

Greg, with all due respect, it seems that you are the one leveling anti-fundamentalist charges. Aren't you implying that Marc Monte is not a fundamentalist, especially by claiming that people like Marc Monte "attempt to share the fundamentalist label with us"?

Bob T.
Offline
Former memberUser
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 418
Reply to a defense of the MacArthur gospel.

Joel stated:

"MacArthur has not replaced Biblical salvation with a works salvation. He's just emphasizing repentance. To some of you who have down-played the volitional side (i.e. the "submission" part of saving faith), it sounds like works-salvation. This is nothing more than the gospel as spelled out in the Gospels (Repent if you want to be in the Kingdom) as well as James (Saving Faith results in a fruit of works). How in the world can you guys read works-salvation in that? Stop reading Lou and start reading you’re Bibles. To be fair, there have been a few passages that Mac has read his understanding of Lordship salvation that I don't see in the passage. It is true that one can emphasize repentance disproportionate to faith that you end up switching sanctification with justification. If you read John in context and widely, I don't believe John has crossed those lines consistently enough to make the charge that he has a false gospel."

Joel, it is time for Fundamentalists to at least get the Gospel right and to have some understanding of the theology of the Gospel. MacArthur declares a false Gospel and has made his version of the so called Lordship Gospel a distinctive of his church. That makes it an uncompromising doctrine in his mind. He harshly criticizes any who disagree with him. The problem is he misunderstands the biblical definition of faith, the place of repentance in salvation, the definition of repentance, and the place of works with regard to faith. As a result he also misunderstands assurance of salvation.. He has a blatantly false interpretation of many Gospel passages such as the Prodigal Son and the Sermon on the mount. On top of all that is the fact that he tries to sell this unorthodox Gospel as the traditional Gospel as believed by the Reformers and some other Reformed theologians. He is also absolutely wrong in that historical perception. Now, just in case you think that I am being overly harsh please understand that everything I have just stated is also clearly stated with full explanation in the book "Christ The Lord, The Reformation and Lordship Salvation," Michael S Horton, editor and a co author, WIPF & Stock, Eugene Ore. 1992. Micheal Horton is presently Professor of Theology at Westminster Seminary West. All the authors are Reformed theologians and the forward is by Allister McGrath of Oxford and a world renowned historian, especially of the Reformation.

MacArthur has claimed loyalty to the Reformers. He evidently appealed to some young Fundamentalists who may lack good grounding in historical theology. He also appeals to some who come from what has been traditionally called a "legalistic" oriented Fundamentalism. In their escape from some of that legalism they may have a tendency to not fully apprehend the implications grace. They may have experience with decisional emphasis and a shallow gospel presentation and followup. MacArthur calls that easy believism. The fact is MacArhur's books declare a gospel that is contrary to the Reformers theology and based on extremely bad exegesis. He presents a gospel with almost no grace. The failure of so many in Fundamentalism to understand this may be one of the 21st century scandals of the Fundamentalist mentality. You mentioned "reading Lou." I have read his book and it is poorly researched and he does not understand the issues. Lou is a KJVO person. His is also a gospel of legalism.

If you have not read the book "Christ The Lord" please do so. They do a good job of balancing the saving aspects of the Gospel and of our assurance. As a Classic Dispensationalist I do disagree with some of their views on sanctification and some (but not all) of their criticism of Chafer. They are fair in acknowledging that MacArthur does state that salvation is by grace alone through alone. However, they show that his main arguments and other statements refute those assertions and set forth a faith and works gospel. The book also deals with the errors of Zane Hodges.

Other interesting books on the subject are: "Getting the Gospel Wrong, Hixson; Getting the Gospel Right, Olson; Back to Faith, Lybrand.

In my opinion John MacArhur advocates an errant gospel that is sufficiently wrong to make us have a need to protect the flock from his misunderstandings.

Sorry if I am coming across as overly dogmatic and perhaps harsh, but the theological and historical facts are irrefutable if analyzed fairly. MacArthur has been dogmatic and harsh toward those who differ. Misunderstanding and harm has been done to some. No one should endeavor to defend MacArthur until they have read this book. It should put them on the right path. In my opinion these errors need to be exposed.

Susan R
Susan R's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3437
5 seconds later...
Joel Tetreau wrote:

1. You don't want to open your arms to these guys because they work with people longer than you would? Well.....Jesus would work longer with some of these than you would!

Joel- I think I'm a Type A according to your taxonomy, but I really enjoyed your post anyway. Tongue The above comment reminded me of a discussion I had recently with someone about how we use Mtt. 18.
Matthew 18:15-16 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
It seems to me that the most common application of this is that we'll go to a brother who has trespassed in some way, and if he is not immediately on board with our assessment of the situation, we either ignore the rest of the passage, or we wait about 5 seconds to employ the rest of the passage. What about giving the Holy Spirit a chance to work in their hearts? What about spending some time praying and fasting for our brothers before grabbing some friends for our own brand of the Inquisition?

If we are truly going to be meek about the process of restoration (Gal. 6:1), we need to examine ourselves, and remember how long it took for some of us to get our doctrine and behavior in line with the Word of God- and I'm willing to bet none of us have 'arrived' just yet.

But I also wonder if correction and restoration are even in our minds. I get the feeling that a few people would be sorely disappointed if some folks 'got right'.

__________________

Susan R

Blogging at At Home and School and Shelf Discoveries
"Like" my Facebook page

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Quote: Some of the reactions
Quote:

Some of the reactions to our conference are symptomatic of the anti-fundamentalist leanings on this blog.

Jason,

My statement about "anti-fundamentalist charges" stems from this statement from Monte. If there is any anti-Fundamentalism here, it is against Fundamentalism as men like him and Fugate are re-defining it to be, not what it was since its inception, or even when it parted ways with the New Evangelicals later on.

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Pastor Marc Monte
Pastor Marc Monte's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 59
re-defining fundamentalist?

Greg,

The charge of my re-defining fundamentalism is a little over the top, don't you think? Fact is, I am not re-defining it; I am simply re-emphasizing it! Fundamentalism, you agree, has always been a "big tent" movement. Why is it that you have more toleration in the movement for baby baptizers than you do for "revivalists?" Both were a part of the initial movement, so why single out one "camp" as re-defining the movement.

If you were to visit my church, you would find a conservative, traditial fundamental Baptist church with Christ-honoring music and a warm evangelistic atmosphere. You would notice conservative dress attire worn by our members. You would find our people passionate about winning souls. You'd likely witness a baptism or two. The bus kids might make a little noise, but a worker would deal with it quickly. If you came on a Wednesday night, you would find me in a verse-by-verse study of the book of Jeremiah. Expositional preaching is the norm. In fact, a former staff member from the old 4th Baptist (the church where I grew up) visited a while back, and he told me that mine is a church "of which Dr. Clearwaters would be proud." That's a high complement to me since R.V. Clearwaters is a personal hero of mine. Fact is, our church has been described as a "blast from the past." We even use hymnbooks! (John R. Rice's "Soul-stirring Songs and Hymns"--can you believe it?)

When I examine the Greek New Testament, I always look at Scrivner's TR as my authority. Is that a sin? Remember, John Calvin himself used the "Traditional Text." Why does my doing so make me a criminal? The settings on your Bible Works program differ from mine. Does that make me "hetrodox?" The ongoing bashing of TR people is illogical and contradicts almost 1,900 years of church history. Is it non-fundamental to believe that the TR is God's Word? (I became convinced of the importance of a settled New Testament text as a Greek minor at BJU in the 1980's. I watched sophomore Greek students use the critical apparatus to make "decisions" as to the New Testament text. It was arrogant, obnoxious and--most of all--really, really ugly!) Old school fundamentalism widely, though not exclusively, used the KJV. What's wrong with my continuing in their tradition?

As far as being anti-calvinist, I plead guilty. But there are a lot of fundamentalists who don't sign on to Calvin's Augstinian theology. In fact, I have no reason to even read Calvin. I have a "more sure word of prophecy." So do you. My point: it's not necessary to be a Calvinist to be a fundamentalist. I view it as a distraction. My point: Does my not being a Calvinst make me less of a fundamentalist? No.

Am I a Baptist? Yes. Do I have Baptist speakers on my platform? Yes. Seems consistent with my doctrinal position. Why fault a guy for cheering for his own team?

Am I a "revivalist?" Yes. Remember, fundamentalism was born in the fires of revival. Dr. Bob Jones, Sr. was a revivalist, too. I think I'm on pretty safe ground with that position.

Well now, is Marc Monte a fundamentalist? Yes. Is he "re-defining" fundamentalism? No. Is his brand of fundamentalism the only brand? Decidedly NO! But is his brand Biblicist! YES! And it's a lot of fun, too! Come on in! The water's fine!

__________________

Just clinging to my guns and religion...

www.faithbaptistavon.com

Susan R
Susan R's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3437
+++Preemptive Moderator Note+++

+++This thread is obviously going to create a variety of trails that are interesting and compelling to follow. However, please try to keep it in the middle of the road as much as possible, and if you want to pursue in depth MacArthur, Lordship Salvation, the TR/KJV debate... please feel free to create another thread for that purpose.

Also, try not to view disagreements as 'accusations'. If you feel that you are being accused of something immoral/unethical/illegal/stupid, you can report the offending post to the moderating team using the handy dandy "flag this" link that has been conveniently provided at the bottom right hand corner of every post. No muss, no fuss, the thread stays on topic, it gives the moderating team something to do, and everyone is happy.

If you have a question or comment about this moderator note, please send a message to Forums Director Jim Peet.+++

__________________

Susan R

Blogging at At Home and School and Shelf Discoveries
"Like" my Facebook page

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Marc, Where I am taking

Marc,

Where I am taking exception is not that you hold the many positions that you have said you do. Rather, it is by emphasizing them as you have while simultaneously leveling "anti-fundamentalist" tendencies and expressed concerns/taken exception with what Bauder has stated (seemingly on similar basis), that you equate those positions to Fundamentalism. There is room for a great deal of what you describe yourself to hold to under Fundamentalism- if not, indeed, all of it. What I will argue, however, is that is not limited to what you describe yourself and your church as. If you walk into a church that featured relaxed casual attire, people dedicated to intentional discipleship and equipping, children sitting with parents or incorporated into family units (in and out of services), reading from their ESVs and singing the hymns of Wesley and Watts (interspersed with Anderson and Getty) rather than the gospel songs of Crosby and Sankey, it can be every bit as much a Fundamentalist congregation as what you described yours as being. There is room for latitude beyond what either of us have described, actually, because those issues have little if anything to do with Fundamentalism.

Now, there may be appropriate occasions to narrow your fellowship and emphasis. Your conference could serve as a good example of such an occasion. But don't claim or imply that such things constitute what defines a good Fundamentalist- that attributes more than the label signifies. Pointing us back to the topic at hand, Bauder is consistent with these principles as a Fundamentalist in what he has written in that he never stated that there are not distinctions between the separatist Fundamentalist and the conservative evangelical. Rather, he addressed the attitude and demeanor with which those differences should be processed and articulated. I know for a fact that Kevin Bauder clearly understands what divides him from John Piper, et al. He does not believe that gives him (or any other Fundamentalist) license, however, to oppose them in the same way we oppose Mormons or Buddhists, and has issued a statement of rebuke to that end. You guys can drag all these other things (music, bus ministry etc etc) into it, but the bottom line is that Bauder is addressing Fundamentalist attitude and demeanor, not proposing a merger between two sides. He is inviting self-examination of those attitudes and expressions on our (Fundamenatlists') part by pointing out what is commendable of these others. What is sad is that so many of us reading are acting like feuding children, so obsessed with the wrong of the other that we refuse to take responsibility for the sinful choices we ourselves make- instead we insist on justifying why our responses were or continue to be warranted. But this isn't about where the CE men are wrong- that was never Bauder's purpose in this article. They aren't his audience, and don't read him (at least not to the degree that his primary constituency would). It is where we are.

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Jay
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditor
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 2304
Lordship Debate

Please take the lordship discussion to the following thread:

http://www.sharperiron.org/forum/thread-lordship

Thanks!

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

Pastor Marc Monte
Pastor Marc Monte's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 59
I feel the love!

Greg: My response had nothing to do with Dr. Bauder's article per se. I stated back at post #51 that I don't have time right now to write a lengthy response. My response stemmed from what I felt could have bordered on slight criticism of our big meeting. I almost got the impression that our speaker's platform (with the exception of Dr. Phelps) was being viewed as an abberation of fundamentalism--if not foreign to it intirely.

Your last post clears that up, and I feel accepted within the broad tent of fundamentalism once again! It's good to know that there's a place for old-time religion, revivalistic, TR, anti-calvinists in the movement. In the words of Garrison Keillor, we're just "happy to be here!" May our tribe increase! And may the fellowship be sweet!

(I'm glad that fundamentalism includes differing perspectives! If not, this blog would be boring. If everyone agreed with me, I'd change my position just to spice things up! --just kidding!)

__________________

Just clinging to my guns and religion...

www.faithbaptistavon.com

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 674
Marc, I apologize- it sure

Marc,

I apologize- it sure seemed like your insertion of the topic of conference was an indirect response to Bauder's article, though.

As far as the aberration goes- that would be a topic worth pursuing sometime, though not here. I believe there is an argument to be made that Fugate would present problems predominately because of his adding to Scripture in regards to Bibliology- but again, another discussion for another thread.

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley