Fundamentalism: Whence? Where? Whither? Part 4

66 replies [Last post]
Kevin T. Bauder
Offline
User
Joined: Sat, Jun 6 2009
Posts: 196

NickOfTime

Fundamentalism and Populism

Read Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3.

Prior to Thomas Reid and Scottish Common Sense Realism, people typically recognized a distinction between appearances (whether understood as perceptions, phenomena, or, in Locke’s case, ideas) and reality. From antiquity until the late Middle Ages, this distinction had produced two effects upon the way that most people thought about reality. First, they reckoned that whatever reality they encountered had to be interpreted—and not everyone was in an equally good position to do the interpreting. Second, they believed that reality possessed dimensions of meaning or significance that stretched well beyond sensory awareness. Grasping those levels of meaning was also something that not everyone was equally qualified to do.

Common Sense Realists denied the distinction between appearance and reality. They insisted that perceiving subjects have direct and unmediated access to reality itself. Consequently, reality does not need to be interpreted—it is as it appears to be. This move had the effect of placing every person on an equal footing for understanding any aspect of reality.

As presented by people like Reid and Dugald Stewart, Common Sense Realism was a responsible if misguided academic option. Ironically, however, many of the people who appropriated and applied Reid’s conclusions would not have been capable of understanding his arguments. Chief among them were Americans.

Even before Reid, Americans had begun to affirm the competence of the ordinary person in all matters. This perspective is called populism. The harshness of the American frontier and the necessity of individual accomplishment tended to negate aristocratic influences. The sense that they were starting anew gave Americans an antipathy toward traditions. The arrival of Common Sense Realism confirmed the populist prejudice and opened the throttle for its acceleration. This process continued throughout the Jeffersonian and Jacksonian periods.

At the time of the American Revolution, populism was widely (though not universally) assumed by American Christians. The influence of populism continued to grow during the first half of the Nineteenth Century. Under its sway, many expressions of American Christianity became anti-traditional, anti-clerical, and anti-intellectual. Branches of American evangelicalism rejected the value of creeds and confessions, of advanced study (sometimes of any specialized study), and of a trained ministry. The ideal became the individual who, without any particular theological training, read the Bible and came to his own convictions. Such individuals, if articulate, could become the leaders of significant communities and movements.

Some of those movements turned out to be less than evangelical. Seventh-Day Adventism owes its origins to this period, as does the Stone-Campbell movement. Indeed, this was a time when novel sects and cults were beginning to abound.

Among evangelicals, populism contributed to and was fed by the Second Great Awakening. It produced the camp-meeting movement, and, at a slightly later period, the urban revivalists. The most influential of these was Charles Grandison Finney.

Finney is widely remembered for the spectacular results of his meetings. His main contribution, however, lay in systematizing and nearly canonizing the methods of populistic revivalism. He spelled out his theological underpinnings in his Systematic Theology, but expounded most of his methodology in his Memoirs and his Revivals of Religion.

For Finney, the normal Christian life is one of decline. Left to themselves, believers are easily distracted by the cares of the world and they will quickly backslide. In order to interrupt this backsliding, their attention must be refocused from temporal things onto spiritual things.

In order to do that, the preacher first has to get their attention. On the one hand (according to Finney), this required him to eliminate the preaching of any doctrines that were not immediately practical in nature. On the other hand, gathering a crowd and gaining their attention required novelty.

Finney insisted that, since God has not ordained any specific methods, the preacher is free to develop his own methodology. Effectiveness is the key to choosing techniques. Finney argued for the necessity of novelty, and he suggested that Christians should look at techniques that had proven successful in the worlds of commerce, politics, and entertainment.

For Finney, appropriating these techniques was an aspect of spiritual wisdom. Indeed, the spiritual wisdom of any preacher or Christian leader could be gauged by counting the numbers who responded. Finney was quite explicit at this point: “The amount of a minister’s success in winning souls (other things being equal) invariably decides the amount of wisdom he has exercised in the discharge of his office.”1

These ideas put a new twist on the old populism. They had the effect of pegging the internal methods of the church to whatever techniques were dominant in the surrounding secular culture. They also linked, for the first time, Christian gathering to secular entertainment. The results of this move would prove to be profound.

The time when Finney was experimenting with his new measures and articulating his ideas was the very time when popular culture was emerging for the first time. A discussion of popular culture will require separate treatment. At this point, only two observations need to be offered. First, popular culture is mass-produced culture, and as such it could not exist before the invention of the steam-powered printing press in the early 1800s. Second, popular culture is commercial culture, and as such it is intrinsically secularizing and sensationalizing.

Finney’s methods were developed just prior to the explosion of popular culture. He could not have foreseen the wedding that was about to occur between his methods and the new direction in culture, nor could he have foreseen where the newly-invented popular culture was eventually going to lead. Even so, the adaptation to popular culture came to characterize American Christianity during the latter half of the Nineteenth Century.

All of this occurred long before Fundamentalism arose as an identifiable movement. Nevertheless, populism was a significant aspect of the milieu out of which Fundamentalism emerged. Certainly Fundamentalism reflected the evangelical context that gave it birth.

The results of populism can be traced throughout the history of the fundamentalist movement. Fundamentalism has typically displayed the populist contempt for tradition, for learning, and for an educated ministry. It has defined spiritual success in terms of numerical results. It has envisioned Christian gathering (one hesitates to call it worship) as a form of amusement, and it has struggled to maintain itself in the face of a continually-changing popular culture. Wherever Fundamentalism has flourished, it has done so by appealing to and building upon some aspect of the popular culture.

Many will object that this description does not fairly characterize all Fundamentalists, and that objection certainly carries weight. Nevertheless, as Les Ollila once observed, “The problem with pragmatism is that it does work.”2 When a less populist version of Fundamentalism has been forced to make common cause with a more populist version, the more populist version has almost always dominated through sheer force of numbers. The result is that today virtually all churches, and certainly all institutions within Fundamentalism, have been influenced by the populist outlook.

People like to pride themselves upon being able to make their own choices and develop their own opinions. The fact is, though, that not everyone is equally qualified to make every choice or to hold every opinion. When unqualified people are asked to develop opinions and to make choices, they invariably look for leadership—often, the kind of leadership that will lead them to believe that they are acting on their own, while manipulating or stampeding them into doing its will. That kind of demagoguery has come to typify some branches of Fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is a great idea. It deserves to be preserved and defended. Almost universally, however, the Fundamentalist movement either began or has become populist. Indeed, many Fundamentalists defend populist perspectives as if they are important aspects of the Christian faith. The populist dynamic helps to explain how Fundamentalism has reached the point at which it stands today.

1 Charles Grandison Finney, Lectures on Revivals of Religion, Christian Classics reprint edition (Virginia Beach, VA: CBN University Press, 1978), 189.

2 Les Ollila, forward to Douglas R. McLachlan, Reclaiming Authentic Fundamentalism (Independence, Mo.: American Association of Christian Schools, 1993), vi.

Frescoes in an Old Church

Walter de la Mare (1873-1956)

Six centuries now have gone
Since, one by one,
These stones were laid,
And in air’s vacancy
This beauty made.

They who thus reared them
Their long rest have won;
Ours now this heritage—
To guard, preserve, delight in, brood upon;
And in these transitory fragments scan
The immortal longings in the soul of Man.


This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.

 

<Note: comments on this article are temporarily disabled… back soon>

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5084
Good and bad in common sense & populism

First, thanks to Kevin for two essays I've found especially stimulating.

I do believe there is harm in Common Sense, common sense, and populism.
But I also believe there is good in them and that overreacting against them is as harmful as anything in them. Kevin is emphasizing the harm in them (perhaps for the best of reasons). In the interest of completing the picture, maybe I can point out some of the good in them.

Kevin Bauder wrote:

Prior to Thomas Reid and Scottish Common Sense Realism, people typically recognized a distinction between appearances (whether understood as perceptions, phenomena, or, in Locke’s case, ideas) and reality. From antiquity until the late Middle Ages, this distinction had produced two effects upon the way that most people thought about reality. First, they reckoned that whatever reality they encountered had to be interpreted—and not everyone was in an equally good position to do the interpreting.

I'm not disputing the gist of this, but it may be a bit overstated. It's not like the Common-Sense-Realist farm hand in 1935 went out into his field, saw a cow and thought "That's a cow," but a pre-Enlightenment farm hand in 1235 went out in to his field, saw a cow and thought "That sure looks like a cow. I wonder what it really is. Maybe I should ask someone more qualified to interpret it."

Yes, before Enlightenment philosophy came along, people were generally more inclined to distrust their perceptions and reasonings, and generally more inclined to value the judgment of their "betters." (It helped that most ordinary people were illiterate and only lived to be forty!)
But there has never been an era in history when people questioned their perception of most of the things they encountered in a typical day. (I'm talking about people here, not philosophers! Laughing out loud )

So, to the degree Common Sense Realism rejected some of the foolishness of the day and gave the 1935 farm boy "permission" to call a cow a cow without embarrasement, it was a good thing. Likewise for the Fundamentalist who read "In the beginning God created" and figured it meant pretty much what it said. For that, I salute Thomas Reid (but, really, did most farm hands care if any philosopher approved of their common sense... did most fundamentalists either?)

It's also not hard to see some good in populism, though I think I'm almost as averse to that as Kevin is (I would not have spent 4 years in college and 5 more in seminary if I believed I could do just as well without them).

It was egalitarianism--populism's close cousin--that said if the commoner may not kill his neighbor and take his wife, the aristocrat should not be permitted to kill the commoner's neighbor and take his wife either. And it is populism that has encouraged untold millions to believe that being a third generation son of a shoe shiner doesn't mean you can't become a lawyer, writer, statesman, musician, president, or anything else.
(It really does pain me to say anything good about populism, but there it is.)

Lets remember, too, that belief in "the competence of the ordinary person in all matters" is partly justified. The same printing press that made "pop culture" possible, also gave the increasingly literate "ordinary person" of that era much more knowledge and competence in thinking for himself than many generations of his predecessors. So the ordinary person is more competent in many matters than than he used to be (though I think this competence has been on the decline again for a while now).

Is every ordinary person competent in all matters? No way. (Anybody want the pizza guy to remove a tumor from your brain? I hear he's a real bargain!) Populism's confusion on what exactly all ordinary people are capable of is a real problem in our culture as well as in Fundamentalism (though I think evangelicalism in general is really no better off on that score).

All I'm saying is that there are elements of Common Sense Realism that corrected extremes that preceded it and that avoid extremes that have followed it. The same is true of populism.

To put it biblical terms, shouldn't we accept bits of wisdom regardless of what philosophical system happens to be mixing them in with their less helpful ideas? Let's just be careful not to throw out what's wise along with what's foolish.

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
Populism = Congregational Polity

Hey Kevin,

I hope your philosophy is pointed to what I think you want your conclusions to be. I would love to be able to respond at the end of all of this with........

"I wonder how you balance your commitment to a Biblical approach to congregationalism (you are a Baptist?) with your philosophical antipathy for "populism?" Sometimes you just have to hate exegesis. It ruins great philosophy and gets in the way of consistent theology. I wonder...did God make a mistake on the occasions he handed untrained congregants the ability to make decisions? Perhaps God should have just handed over decision-making to a selected few? Don't you think God really meant for more "votes" to go to the more educated? Certainly we should allow only the deepest of thinkers to chart the course....that's far better than anyone else. I mean you can't have just anyone lead....what would that do for the most important of us? Isn't that Presbyterianism? You are a Baptist...... right Kevin? I mean if just anyone could serve, lead or influence you might end up with simple "fishermen" serving as Apostles. No way God would allow that travisty! I'm enjoying the hole you're digging! It's beautiful....it's deep.....it's philosophical....very German of you! Go baby go!"

I'm sure I'll not be so lucky (As your friend Finney would say)....At the end you'll answer all your critics....and they will love you for it. You'll be the perfect picture of grace and logic. You'll have it all spelled just so....you'll use Latin.....the evangelicals will hail you as the perfect picture of a fundamentalism they agree with. The FBF will burn you in effigy! Young Fundamentalist will make songs of you. There will be new slogans, "I want to be like Kevin!" Beason will give you a degree this time. How do you do this? Do you actually ever sleep? On behalf of the masses of the illiterate...you are amazing! We like the idea of not having a voice in the face of overwhelming......."stuff" ("stuff" is very "hip" Kevin). Is it true that the Illuminati have asked you to join the Trilateral Commission? I'm sure you'll be the first fundamentalist to ever serve with them.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Mike Mann
Mike Mann's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 126
You make me smile

Cute Joel. Very cute

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5084
Translation?

Joel,
I'm a bit unclear on what your point is there... (I don't have a good ear for sarcasm or irony so I often get confused when people use them... seriously). At the moment I'm feeling tempted to sort of switch sides and defend anti-populism again.
I personally believe congregationalism has been taken way too far in many churches and that the NT model does indeed concentrate more decisions in the hands of a few (but never a single individual) who are qualified to be leaders. Hence, the detailed and repeated qualifications in the pastoral epistles, and the injunctions to obey those who have the rule over you. So I'm not sure what you're your getting at there.

The fishermen --> apostles phenomenon is a good case study. What happened is that Jesus spent 3 1/2 yrs training them so they would be qualified. The elitist attitudes of, say, 18th century Great Britain would have tended to say that your birth is a huge factor in your abilities so no fisherman can become a church leader. In that sense, the populism of later times softened these attitudes and said it's not about your breeding, where you grew up, etc.
But modern populism tends to bristle at the idea that Jesus selected twelve to "be with Him" and be trained for some decision-making that would not be shared by the rest of the disciples.

So elitism sort of says "Your background means you cannot become qualified." Modern populist confusion tends to say "You don't even have to be qualified."
Neither of these is wisdom. (And congregational polity--with biblical limits--does not depend on populism)

SDHaynie
SDHaynie's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 29
A Few More Questions

I have always enjoyed Dr. Bauder's essays. They are good for producing some heavy-duty thinking in me. I need that! As a teacher of church history, I am very interested in this set of lectures.
However, as I read this essay a few questions came to mind.
Joel T. beat me to the first one:

Joel Tetreau wrote:

"I wonder how you balance your commitment to a Biblical approach to congregationalism (you are a Baptist?) with your philosophical antipathy for "populism?" Sometimes you just have to hate exegesis. It ruins great philosophy and gets in the way of consistent theology.

The second one, related to Joel's question is:
Where does this leave the doctrine of the "body." At the very least, an extreme interpretation of the essay would seem to eliminate this. For example, in a church we may have an ordained, seminary-trained individual who has been saved for 40 plus years...we may also have a new member who has been saved and baptized and in the membership for less than a month. In the context of the "body" shouldn't they each contribute to the spiritual life and growth of one another? Obviously, the former ought to contribute much more to the relationship because he is hopefully more mature. But by the same token, the more mature Christian should not shun the possibility of gaining something from his fellowship with the new believer simply because he philosophically rejects populism. The new believer is still a part of the "body" and as such can make significant contributions.
The third:
Where does the Illumination of the Holy Spirit in the reading, interpreting, and application of Scripture come into this? I, as Aaron B. said of himself...am not a thorough-going populist...I did go to Bible College and Seminary and would love to further my formal education. But the doctrines of the indwelling and illumination of the Holy Spirit, at least as I learned and believe them, force me to conclude that all believers have the capacity to read, interpret, and apply Scriptures for themselves. Certainly, God has also ordained preaching. Furthermore, I think a proper understanding of the Inspiration of Scriptures, as well as their Preservation and Transmission, behooves us to sharpen our interpretative tools whenever and wherever possible. However, we cannot escape the fact that ALL have the right and privilege of reading, interpreting, and applying Scriptures for themselves.
Dr. Bauder is a thorough thinker. Perhaps these questions will be answered in a future essay. Perhaps I am taking too extreme an interpretation of what he is saying in this essay. Certainly, I agree with his take on Finney in this and other essays in which Finney has been mentioned. I have very little appreciation for the influence of Finney on the modern church. But I just thought I would share these questions because I believe they are important to keep in mind as we digest this article on Fundamentalism.

__________________

Shawn Haynie

Joseph
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Jun 10 2009
Posts: 177
Aaron, I can't speak for

Aaron,

I can't speak for Bauder' s intentions, but my own reading of what he's saying as well as my own understanding of populism, etc. is such that your responses are not directly relevant to what is being said here. The dominance of Common Sense realism and populism are not significant in relation to the everyman's taking his perceptions as generally reliable; so, all the stuff about the cow is simply missing the point. Immanuel Kant, for crying out loud, would have agreed with what you said there, because he saw himself as defending "common sense" against skepticism (the way he did that, and whether it worked, is what's so tricky), and he, like most philosophers, held to the general reliability of our knowledge-giving faculties. That's a non-issue. Philosophers have insisted that, speaking strictly, our perceptions are never faulty - rather ourjudgments are. Perceptions are the kinds of things that can be true or false; judgments based on perceptions are. That "I am being appeared to treely," as the jargon as it, is indubitably; that "There is a tree over there" is far from undubitable, and it's the move from the first to the second proposition that rightly comes in for much interrogation and criticism in philosophy and theology.

And one of the significant aspets of CSR and populism is precisely its undermining of a very proper care, attention, and, depending on the context and object, suspicion from philosophers and theologians directed towards human's capacity to judge accurately and with competence. The flattening of distinctions between different objects of knowledge and different modes of judgment (e.g. empirical, aesthetic, theoretical, etc.) and the consequent suspicion towards the notion that judgment as a faculty most be trained, that there is such a thing as good or bad judgment is one of the pernicious ways that populism, etc. shaped American culture, and it that kind of thing, I believe, that Bauder is rightly targeting. For, in this sense, there is no "good side" to populism because populism is affirming something inaccurate about human beings.

The nub of the matter is that general reliability of faculties like sight, etc. with respect to everyday activities leads to no determinate philosophical position regarding far more difficult matters, like how one properly reads a single book composed of 66 books that were canonized by the Christian church and held to be its foundational authority, or how it's possible for human beings, who by all appearences completely decay as material entities after death, to be immortal or to be bodily resurrected. In all of these issues one must not only take great care about matters philosophical and theological, but one must also manifest an attitude towards the issues commensurate with their nature, and part of that attitude, often resulting in divergent philosohpical positions, is that the process whereby humans acquire, justify, and can know that they have knowledge is exceedingly more complex than the man in the cow field's experience suggests.

One way of dealing with this complexity is to ignore it, to functionally deny it, and this is what most Americans do, and it's certainly what populism encourages, and that is an unmitigated disaster for responsible and careful thinking about anything: the Bible, theology, philosophy, politics, education - anything.

KevinM
KevinM's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 77
Send a Great Revival to My Soul

I love reading these. Maybe we’re reading the first draft of a good book?

I have one fear so far. One hand, we must embrace Bauder’s plan to rightly name and categorize our own history. His writing is a mirror that reveals both our gray hair and our acne. But as he writes on our behalf, we must also be wary. At times, a zeal for sermonic language can wander past naming and fall into mere pigeonholes. George Dollar made this mistake in his category-laden A History of Fundamentalism in America. Yes, George, it was possible to describe our movement with certain labels! But as we do this, we should also seek to understand the excluded middle (where many of us live and minister).

For instance, if we vilify revivalism as mere populism—or if we replace it with an intellectual opposite (elitism? aristocracy?)—we may miss the opportunity to learn why revival was necessary. Is there a place for a modified, chastened revivalism that (in intellectual humility) recognizes the failings of pragmatism but also searches for “effective” methods that are faithful to Scripture?

Charlie
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 822
Where Is the Holy Spirit?
SDHaynie wrote:

Where does the Illumination of the Holy Spirit in the reading, interpreting, and application of Scripture come into this? I, as Aaron B. said of himself...am not a thorough-going populist...I did go to Bible College and Seminary and would love to further my formal education. But the doctrines of the indwelling and illumination of the Holy Spirit, at least as I learned and believe them, force me to conclude that all believers have the capacity to read, interpret, and apply Scriptures for themselves. Certainly, God has also ordained preaching. Furthermore, I think a proper understanding of the Inspiration of Scriptures, as well as their Preservation and Transmission, behooves us to sharpen our interpretative tools whenever and wherever possible. However, we cannot escape the fact that ALL have the right and privilege of reading, interpreting, and applying Scriptures for themselves.

I have been mulling over this for a few years; I am strongly considering doing my doctoral research on this topic (or on something that includes it). From the perspective of my current position, I would agree with something you said and disagree with something else. First, I agree that the Holy Spirit is our ultimate hope for understanding the Scripture and knowing God. In fact, everyone who has the Spirit does know God, and therefore understands at least a little bit of Scripture. Now, the disagreement. I think you are making the same mistake that is talked about here - a kind of hermeneutical populism. The mistake is failing to recognize the stratified nature of Christian theology and Scriptural teaching, as well as failing to consider that the Spirit 's guidance may be mediated indirectly, rather than directly to the individual.

So, first, the stratified nature of the Scripture. We all know that there are different levels of complexity to questions about Scripture. "Who were the twelve disciples?" is at the most basic level, sheer content with minimal interpretation. "What is the purpose of the book of Romans?" is at another level, requiring the analysis and digestion of a significant body of material, with quite a bit of induction, deduction, and rhetorical analysis. The question, "Why the Incarnation?" is at perhaps the highest level, considering the whole sweep of revelation, including meditation on God's nature and purposes. More "levels" could be adduced if we really wished.

OK, enough of that. We realize that not everyone is at the same point in their ability, yet every Christian has the same Spirit. What makes the difference, or, how do we move up levels? My answer and yours, I assume: the Holy Spirit. So, we've stated that every Christian has the same Holy Spirit, yet the Spirit is what differentiates people's understanding. Here's the harmonization - the Spirit works through gradual transformation, and He does this usually through mediate agents. We can think of Romans 12, where we are told that we are conformed to Christ by the transforming of our minds. This transformation, surely, is a lifelong process and includes both mental improvement and the removal of sinful impediments to our proper thinking about God. So, God is not at the same place with everyone.

But what we really need to discuss, to answer your question, is what methods the Spirit uses to accomplish this transformation. I submit a very non-populist, non-pietist answer to that question. The Holy Spirit does not pour knowledge into your head like an "inner light," or like a computer download. Rather, Ephesians 4 tells us that God gave us gifts to build us up in our doctrine - teachers (among others). God, then, works through these people to build up other people so that we "all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son" (v. 13). Now, God has given teachers to the church in every age, and if we neglect the witness of the teachers of the past, we are missing out on that much of the Spirit's work.

Now, obviously, God Spirit does work in other ways. I merely stress the above because it receives virtually no emphasis in the American "personal devotions" culture. I believe in personal Bible study, but I also note that the New Testament has a far greater emphasis on the corporate body and the teaching function of the elders, a hard thing for individualist Americans to swallow. So, in summary, I believe a person's understanding of Scripture will grow to the extent that the Spirit is working in him, and that a person can hinder the work of the Spirit in him by refusing to partake of ALL the Spirit's work, which is mediated through church teachers past and present, the Scripture, the edification of the body, family, and the Sacraments.

__________________

My Blog: www.sacredpage.wordpress.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5084
Elusive objectivity

Seems relevant to observe at this point that students of philosophy here have been quick to remind us (as has Kevin B) that we don't have a truly objective point of view to approach the Scriptures (or anything else) from.

I agree. What that means, though, in one very practical case, is anyone who has found his vocation tends to see it as having more value than those without that vocation do. Someone who sells vitamin brand x tends to believe it's the absolute most important stuff in the world. Athletes tend to see sports as really, really important to life. People with musical gifts tend to see music as the highest calling. Pastors tend to think of being a pastor as the highest of callings (I don't look at it that way myself, but most pastors I know do).

So here's my point: academics and students of philosophy tend to see academics and philosophy as having enormous importance. Especially if your whole life is centered on the ivory tower, you lose touch with where every one else (which happens to be the vast majority of people alive) lives and how they think.
I believe academics and philosophy are both very important and do shape the thinking of many people. But I do not see the internal disputes of philosophers and academicians as having the impact on society as whole (i.e., the rest of us) that those who live and work in these fields believe.

That SCSR and populism were influential in the Fundamentalist movement (and every other movement of that era) is quite evident. That there is an extremely strong and important link ... far less so.

I don't think anybody's denying that there are excesses in relying on/appealing to common sense and excesses in populistic thinking that infected the fund. movement and greatly weakened it. And really, its those excesses that matter, not whether they are attributable to particular philosophical currents. Not labels, as Kevin M put it.

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 319
Finney - 1874 - excerpts

I've been reading The Independent, the New York religious weekly. This weekly showcases President Charles G. Finney (135 years ago).

1. I read Finney's article on January 1, 1874. In "How to Overcome Sin", he takes to task the prominent professors of theology and President Edward's view on sanctification. He thinks that resolutions are terrible.

2. January 22, 1874 - There is an article, "The Revival Season" (unknown author) - ". . . Pastors, teachers, elders, deacons, classleaders, members, our most earnest word as Christian teachers is to you. For your church, for each one of you there is a blessing ready. It only needs to be taken. We believe there is to be this season a more than ordinary outpouring of God's Spirit and revival of his work. The churches in this city already begin to experience it. This is the way that error and infidelity are to be met, not so much by great champions who shall defend the truth of the Christian system as by an advance along the line. Christianity is to conquer by a soldiers' and not a generals' war. If you, believer, want your religion to gain the victory, you must gain it where you are, through your own church, in your own community. Remember, if you do not have a revival of religion in your own parish, it is all your fault. . . .

And it goes on in an awful way

"Nor do we say this simply for our so-called Evangelical readers. We speak to not a few who are members of what they may call a "Liberal" congregation. If you hold the Christian faith, though it be after the style of Origen or Arius, our message to you is yet the same. Prove that the spirit of Pentecost is in your churches. . . "

3. January 29, 1874 - In the article, "The Conditions of a Revival", here is the opening paragraph, "That old story of the Methodist circuit-rider who posted a notice on the door of the Western school-house to the effect that a revival would begin in that place the next Sunday evening at 7 o'clock has often been quoted as an illustration of pious presumption. But the error into which this good brother fell was much less prevalent and not much more dishonoring to God than the opposite error, which leads men to postpone all concerted and hopeful effort for the conversion of their neighbors until some unusual tokens of the presence of the Divine Spirit shall have been shown them. It is better to trust God too much than too little. The faith which borders on presumption is surely wiser than the unbelief which results in apathy."

4. February 12, 1874 - "The Temperance Revival" - Listen to this: ". . . . Perhaps most prominent of all is the fact that it is a woman's war. . . . The women, trusting partly in masculine forbearance, partly in their knowledge that the men in the community sustain them and would avenge any insult, and partly in God, we suppose, enter the rumseller's saloon, and sit down till he agrees to leave the business. . . . Even if their prayers were to fail, their persistent interference with the business would be enough to drive any money-loving man out of it. The class that buys whisky does not feel attracted to a prayer-meeting. It is not their style. Meanwhile, the praying and singing go on day after day on the very premises or in a booth opposite the door, until the worn-out vender yields."

5. February 19, 1874 - "When Is The Fallow Ground of the Soul Broken Up?" by President Charles G. Finney. He gives 8 points for "acceptable confession".

I am immersed in the history of American populistic revivalism.

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 319
Common Sense in Religion! Hurrah!

The Independent (March 5, 1874) cries Hurrah!

I read an article, "Common Sense in Religion" based from the literature, Common Sense in Religion. A Series of Essays. By James Freeman Clarke. Boston: James R. Osgood & Co. 1873.

Opening paragraph - "It is some encouragement to know that, whereas one hundred years ago common sense was supposed to be the enemy of religion, it is now in some quarters claimed as the witness for religion. Thomas Paine, who arrayed the one against the other, was scarcely met on his own ground. To prophecy and miracles the appeal of the believers was made; and the notion of accepting the testimony of so prosaic a witness as common sense in behalf of truths so transcendent as those contained in Christian mysteries was regarded with certain disdain. Such, indeed, was not the method of old Butler, whose "Analogy" is the best mixture of common sense and religion ever yet made. But it was, to a great extent, the method of many lesser men, who sought to defend the Christian faith by arguments that were remote from human life and that could not be verified in human experience. The sign which this volume gives of a change of venue in the great cause of religion against infidelity is to be received with thanksgiving."

The Independent praises Clarke for bringing out common sense, but they thoroughly critique him for his broadbrushing American Evangelical Christianity with the Calvinistic orthodoxy of Princeton and Hartford, etc. They do not like Calvinism's doctrine of total depravity. In fact, they detest it.

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Joseph
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Jun 10 2009
Posts: 177
Aaron,I agree humans have a

Aaron,

I agree humans have a tendency to privilege whatever activity they end up pursuing over other activities, even if that is stupid.

However, I don't have that view of any of the disciplines I work in, except theology in a non-academic sense, and even there I don't think it's "more important" in some brute sense; rather that for Christians it shapes other things - but that does not mean academic theology or academic theologians are more important than anyone else. Some areas truly are more important than others, viewed with respect to their intrinsic value, but people' 'value is irrespective of the areas they work in.

In philosophy, especially in the university, I have very little evidence direct or indirct of people taking a bloated conception of the significance of their work. Incidentally, if group does this more than others in our society, it's often natural scientists. Analytic philosophers especially have almost no influence on society.

Regarding the impact of disputes, etc. I don't think one can safely generalize. Depending on the place and time, ideas may have been much more important - or not. Some groups, although I'm loath to call them academics, depending on what's meant by the term, have an enormous impact on everyday life and its utterly disastrous for the church as a whole to ignore them, in particular: educationalists and people in pyschology/pyschiatry, who are actually defining certain moral behavior away into diseases, etc.

A concern I have, though, with your position is that it may, to Christians detriment, seriously undervalue the power of academics. As people like Os Guinness and many others have noted, when societies modernize, and hence develop massive bereaucracies and increasingly complex role-differentiation in society, you get the emergence of "experts" as a class of people who regulate their specific domains of knowledge: setting standards, educating, accrediting, etc. In a society like ours, these people exercise an enormous influence, far incommensurate to their number. This is one reason why Tim Keller, for example, says its so important to reach cities: they, like the universities, exercise a disproportionate infuence on broader culture: Culture moves downwind from the cities and academies, and thus if you want to lose cultural influence, you need only abandon the cities and academies; this Christians have done, much to our detriment.

I recognize this is slightly off-topic, but it's deeply important not to undervalue these areas, and I say that not out of self-interest but because the church needs to heed people like Keller and Guinness and realize these (cities, academics, etc.) are underserved by Christians yet hugely influential sectors in society. That's worth remembering in all of this, and it's not unrelated to populism and Bauder's topics because it is in these areas that conservative Protestants started to develop habits of mind that excluded them from have a good representation in these sectors of society.

Red Phillips
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Jun 3 2009
Posts: 41
"The sense that they were

"The sense that they were starting anew gave Americans an antipathy toward traditions."

It is very possible to overstate this. This has long been the belief of American liberals, that America was fundamentally new, and it is also the belief of neoconservatives and the American exceptionalism crowd. But it has not been the belief of traditionalist conservatives who emphasize the continuity of America with the Old World, particularly England. This was particularly true of the South which has always been demonized by progressive forces in America for not displaying enough antipathy toward tradition.

"Fundamentalism has typically displayed the populist contempt for tradition"

Is populism always anti-traditional? Today, populist would be much more likely to oppose gay marriage, for example, than are self-identified elitists. Was not Fundamentalism very much traditionalist on matters of fundamental doctrine against modernist revisionists? Also on morals and standards?

__________________

www.conservativetimes.org

Ed Vasicek
Ed Vasicek's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 771
I got behind and just read

I got behind and just read articles 3 and 4. Man, do we need this stuff! Thanks, Dr. Bauder, for giving us such a big picture perspective. Fantastic!!!

I would point out that evangelicalism is perhaps even more populist.

__________________

"The Midrash Detective"

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
Linking Polity and Populism?

Hey, Joel, did someone gore your ox? You throw quite a few barbs at Kevin, enough that I am having a hard time following your thought between them. It seems that underlying your comments is the notion that a belief in congregational polity somehow justifies an acceptance of populism. How do you figure that?

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter

Ed Vasicek
Ed Vasicek's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 771
Brent Marshall wrote: Hey,
Brent Marshall wrote:

Hey, Joel, did someone gore your ox? You throw quite a few barbs at Kevin, enough that I am having a hard time following your thought between them. It seems that underlying your comments is the notion that a belief in congregational polity somehow justifies an acceptance of populism. How do you figure that?

IMO, Joel has some points if Dr. Bauder's comments are projected without restraint. I think Dr. Bauder is talking about matters of degree, not concept. I can see both perspectives. Bauder's position, projected along the same vector, would lead to what Joel is assuming him to be saying. But I don't think Bauder is going that far.

Perhaps a good follow-up paper would be, "The Priesthood of All Believers before and after Populism." In a way, that is the doctrine that is the issue, but I don't see anyone denying that here. Equal access to the Father, equal status in Christ, and the right to challenge with the Word of God seems to be a given (at least, I hope it is!). That is not the same as claiming equal competence or equally weighted respect for an opinion. I personally have trouble with unmodified congregational government for this reason.

In my area (central or north-central Indiana), there are lots of guys who simply "go into the ministry" as pastors without any formal (and sometimes not much informal) training. I know one man who did this 25 years ago, but he knows his Bible and doctrine and is a better pastor than a number of seminary or Bible college grads I have met, IMO. But I know of a number of others who barely know Genesis from Revelation. But, because of a populous ethos, nobody in those churches seems to mind.

People who study a subject at great length generally do know more about that subject (or domain) than those who do not. As long as those who are trained are open to challenge from the Word, I think you can have both what Kevin and Joel imply.

__________________

"The Midrash Detective"

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
Brent & "others"

Brent,

I'm mixing humor with a point. Go back and read my post one more time. I start out by saying that it looks like Kevin is going to defend some kind of an anti-populist approach to leadership, wisdom, direction, etc....of NT believers, Christianity, ministry, in favor of giving an unequal wait to the "experts." Kevin is trying to show that guys like me believe the way we do because we've been conditioned by a certain philosophical bent that has impacted fundamentalism, evangelicalism as well as other "sub-groups" within American culture. He's brilliant and at many levels I'm sure he's right. I do believe that there is exegetical, theological and even philosophical reasons to not agree with where he's going or where he's leaning. So my response is "if you are saying this.....then I'm responding this way....."

But I know Kevin. Brent....I don't know if I know Kevin.....Perhaps only his mother and wife knows Kevin. Let me re-word that. I think I know Kevin.

I know he is a Baptist (at least in polity....I think in Worship he's more "high-brow Presbyterian!") and I know his "congregational" convictions will not let him go as far as he wants to go (IMO). Of course we don't know exactly where that is because he hasn't finished his series (a point I tried to allude to). Kevin has been at the same time my favorite former teacher and my least favorite! He is a philosophical purist.....He really dislikes pragmatism (To the point that he hands much of it to the likes of Finney-ism). At some level I am a pragmatist.....hopefully not on the line of John Dewey and hopefully not at the expense of truth and a Biblical Philosophy. If Kevin believes something to be philosophically so, it is an absolute with him. That drives me nuts. For Kevin there is white and there is black and there is almost no grey. That drives me nuts! Several of my closest friends I think believe he walks on water. That really drives me nuts! There were times when I was in his class at Central he would go off philosophically in some of these discussions and I wanted to wad up my paper into a little ball and throw it at him....but when one is in the postgrad department, you don't do that to the head of the post grad department....until after you have your degree! Especially when this guy is helping you finish your final project. So I nodded and smiled then like a Joel Tetreau Bobble head! God forgive my duplicity! No longer Brent!

So I'm getting a thought or two in and trying to have fun with him/this at the same time. There is a part of Kevin I really, really appreciate. But there is a part of his writings and approach that really, really bothers me. I worry about the guys that study under him. I don't want them to pick up everything that Kevin has to offer. My prayer is that if they have three years of Kevin, they are baptized into a church ministry to get the "real-life-issues" of ministry in their soul....otherwise they will come out of seminary blowing the average guy away with everything! I'm not suggesting he is at motive "an elitist"....but his approach will lead to elitism in a variety of ways IMO. I don't want that.....so I fight against his influence while trying not to fight against him (not easily done). On the other hand....there is so much he brings to the table historically, theologically and just great observations about ministry in general that I know have helped and will help those that study under him. Oh well....He's in Minnisota, I'm in Arizona, I like him from a distance......and he hears of me once every three years.....it's a beautiful thing.

I promise you, he'd understand because If I had the influence he did (and I don't), and he had a chance to present the "other side" specifically where he was/is uncomfortable with my approach....he would do the exact same thing.....In English, Latin and Logic. I have to use what few tools I have (which is not much compared to the Bauder Tool Box!) combined with humor (something I'm not sure Kevin has).

Don't read more into my friendly joust that you should. He referred to my leadership once as being a leader of the illiterate because of my lack of ability to spell....This sort of thing goes both ways. I'm sorry if you're uncomfortable....but I'll continue to do this even with you being uncomfortable. There's too much at stake here IMO. Even if my leadership is limited to the illiterate....I care deeply enough for them and their ability to understand and know God as well as Kevin does......to show up for this chat.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Joseph
Offline
User
Joined: Wed, Jun 10 2009
Posts: 177
Joel

Joel,

I appreciated your lengthy response. Can I ask a question for clarification?

I see elitism in ministry; it's not uncommon among Presbyterians, for example, or any group that has high ordination requirements and prides itself on rigorous orthodoxy. However, I would not accuse PCA or OPC as groups of encouraging elitism (maybe they do, but I don't know enough to warrant such a charge); rather, I think every emphasis has trajectories that immature people are likely to realize. So, if you emphasis practicality, which is a good thing, and common sense, which is also good - even if you do this with balance and regard for theoretical knowledge - if those are your main emphases, your students/interns (whoever) will likely develop those traits into the immature and wrong-headed pragmatism and anti-intellectualism that characterizes so much of American religious life.

Essentially, then, I am wondering if you see Bauder's positions, or even Bauder's sensibilities, dispositions, etc. themselves as part of the problem, or rather that you think they, in themselves, are good and fine, but they will almost inevitably lead among many less mature seminarians and pastors to an elitism (not sure what exactly this means, but I'm assuming its pejorative, which is enough to go on)?

David King
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 9
Joel, pt2

Not being personally acquainted with either you or Kevin, I came at your first post as a blank slate. I commented to my wife that your post was awfully snarky. Perhaps, if you wanted to tweak him and make a point, your post may have been better as an email, since at least some of it is based on your past experiences with him. Just a thought.

Ed Vasicek
Ed Vasicek's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 771
I remember an old saying that

I remember an old saying that used to circulate, "It takes a pastor 10 years to get over seminary." Part of the problem is that, when you swell your brain with information and study and discipline -- and you have grasped some really deep perspectives -- you want to use what you learn, even if people do not want to hear it and cannot comprehend it. Bringing the cookies down to a lower shelf is a difficult task.

Joel's comments are based upon his perceptions from previous experiences. But I think it is important for the rest of us to look at the actual words Dr. Bauder has penned and respond to that. I do not think his actual words are as far "down the road" as Joel suggests, even if he is perhaps going too far in other writings. Sometimes an individual who is further away from the typical center is not seeking to bring people to his position, just nudge them more in that direction. I think that might be what is happening here.

I did find the second article off target and disappointing. Its logical fallacy was obvious (ancient church leaders are somehow to be more heavily weighted than current ones; it's the old problem of hagiography and undue reverence for the vintage).

__________________

"The Midrash Detective"

SDHaynie
SDHaynie's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 29
Thanks for the Reply Charlie

Charlie,
I want to take a moment and thank you for your response. I would like to let you know that I stand very close to where you stand. You said,

Charlie wrote:

I think you are making the same mistake that is talked about here - a kind of hermeneutical populism. The mistake is failing to recognize the stratified nature of Christian theology and Scriptural teaching, as well as failing to consider that the Spirit 's guidance may be mediated indirectly, rather than directly to the individual...
So, first, the stratified nature of the Scripture...
What makes the difference, or, how do we move up levels? My answer and yours, I assume: the Holy Spirit. So, we've stated that every Christian has the same Holy Spirit, yet the Spirit is what differentiates people's understanding. Here's the harmonization - the Spirit works through gradual transformation, and He does this usually through mediate agents. We can think of Romans 12, where we are told that we are conformed to Christ by the transforming of our minds. This transformation, surely, is a lifelong process and includes both mental improvement and the removal of sinful impediments to our proper thinking about God. So, God is not at the same place with everyone...
But what we really need to discuss, to answer your question, is what methods the Spirit uses to accomplish this transformation. I submit a very non-populist, non-pietist answer to that question. The Holy Spirit does not pour knowledge into your head like an "inner light," or like a computer download. Rather, Ephesians 4 tells us that God gave us gifts to build us up in our doctrine - teachers (among others). God, then, works through these people to build up other people so that we "all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son" (v. 13). Now, God has given teachers to the church in every age, and if we neglect the witness of the teachers of the past, we are missing out on that much of the Spirit's work.
Now, obviously, God Spirit does work in other ways. I merely stress the above because it receives virtually no emphasis in the American "personal devotions" culture. I believe in personal Bible study, but I also note that the New Testament has a far greater emphasis on the corporate body and the teaching function of the elders, a hard thing for individualist Americans to swallow. So, in summary, I believe a person's understanding of Scripture will grow to the extent that the Spirit is working in him, and that a person can hinder the work of the Spirit in him by refusing to partake of ALL the Spirit's work, which is mediated through church teachers past and present, the Scripture, the edification of the body, family, and the Sacraments.

I would agree with you point for point in this answer. Perhaps, in trying to counter what I believe to be an extreme, I overstated my case. But I do stand on the thought that an extreme interpretation and application of the anti-populist view would lead to an elitism in the same vein as medieval Roman Catholicism (only the priest and the church have the ability to rightly divide the Word of Truth).
I am a teacher, I have done everything my time and financial situation have allowed me to do in order to prepare myself to be the best teacher possible. I would say a hearty "AMEN" to your explanation of Ephesians 4 and the gift of teachers and teaching to the church. However, the point I hoped to get across in mentioning the doctrine of Illumination and the concept of the "body" is that, as a teacher, I need to realize that I am not the only one with answers. Certainly God has placed a greater responsibility and accountability upon me because of this gifting and preparation, but I must in humility recognize that I have something to learn and gain even from the "youngest" member of my church. That's what I was trying to say. An anti-populist view would negate this.
I also have to agree heartily with Joel T. and I thank him for his further explanation. As a Baptist, I accept a congregational form of church government. No matter what the populist roots of fundamentalism, and no matter what wrong there may be in populism, I cannot reject this distinctive which I hold dear solely on philosophical grounds. My doctrine must be derived from careful exegesis, not philosophy or rejection of philosophy.
Again, this all takes some private thinking and some interaction, but I believe this is all important for us to do. Thanks again to Dr. Bauder for this great series.

__________________

Shawn Haynie

Charlie
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 822
Really, Ed?
Ed Vasicek wrote:

I did find the second article off target and disappointing. Its logical fallacy was obvious (ancient church leaders are somehow to be more heavily weighted than current ones; it's the old problem of hagiography and undue reverence for the vintage).

I don't think there is a single person on SI who actually believes that older is better. Bauder, as a Reformed-ish Baptist, obviously can't go back before the 17th century for a whole lot of support. As a Dispensationalist, he can't go back farther than the 19th. The point that has been made repeatedly by several people on this board is that a perspective on the past is necessary for a perspective on the present. Also, I think we would all agree that certain select authors of the past were so influential that they become significant for anyone wishing to study the groups and ideas that flowed from them. Bauder's explanation of Finney, for example, was not to imitate Finney, but to show how some of the problems of 20th century Fundamentalism got there. You also can't accuse him of hagiography, because he hasn't put up any person as a blameless ideal.

Bauder's point is that the past is important, not that it is good. His own writing and theological positions show a critical reception of history.

__________________

My Blog: www.sacredpage.wordpress.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
Thanks for the interaction guys

Joseph,

Good questions. Let me ponder them.

For the rest of you.

Bauder and I have a relationship. I think it's a good one. He can (and has) disagreed with me in various forums and that in no way has threated my love for him. In this forum we talk clearly. I happen to be passionate on a few items here. I don't think I've crossed lines. He speaks publically and is responded to publically. It's hard not to separate other discussions where these elements "touch" from the present one.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5084
Trajectories

I appreciate Joseph's observation about emphases & trajectories. It's true that any emphasis goes a certain direction--eventually off track--if it's followed too closely for too long. Common sense takes you to bad places if you just run with it mindlessly. Populism: likewise but even faster. Reverencing historical theology? Different places but also damaging. Reverencing academic disciplines? Likewise (but I don't think all of these undisciplined emphases lead to equally bad places).

I cannot believe that an emphasis on common-sense reading of Scripture (by believers who always have more than mere common sense going for them), can ever lead to as spiritually unhealthy a place as an emphasis on academics that is inadequately disciplined by Scripture and (to a far lesser degree) the realities of life outside the ivory tower.

Ed Vasicek
Ed Vasicek's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 771
Charlie wrote: Ed Vasicek
Charlie wrote:
Ed Vasicek wrote:

I did find the second article off target and disappointing. Its logical fallacy was obvious (ancient church leaders are somehow to be more heavily weighted than current ones; it's the old problem of hagiography and undue reverence for the vintage).

I don't think there is a single person on SI who actually believes that older is better. Bauder, as a Reformed-ish Baptist, obviously can't go back before the 17th century for a whole lot of support. As a Dispensationalist, he can't go back farther than the 19th. The point that has been made repeatedly by several people on this board is that a perspective on the past is necessary for a perspective on the present. Also, I think we would all agree that certain select authors of the past were so influential that they become significant for anyone wishing to study the groups and ideas that flowed from them. Bauder's explanation of Finney, for example, was not to imitate Finney, but to show how some of the problems of 20th century Fundamentalism got there. You also can't accuse him of hagiography, because he hasn't put up any person as a blameless ideal.

Bauder's point is that the past is important, not that it is good. His own writing and theological positions show a critical reception of history.

I agree with your thinking, Charlie, but I disagree that "there is not a single person on SI who actually believes that older is better." I think there is often a certain aura associated with quoting Augustine that would not be there quoting F.F. Bruce, for example. I do not think that MOST of us at SI are there, however. In the greater evangelical world, it is almost rampant.

I do think that Bauder's second article was aimed not at recognizing we can learn from others -- but, particularly, that we could and should learn from others from centuries gone by. Did you not interpret him thusly? I am for looking into the Jewish roots of our faith, and trying to paint a Second Temple context to help me understand the New Testament, but I think we are in a much better position to interpret Scripture than, say, a 4th century leader.

Even Rick Warren quotes Catholic mystics.

__________________

"The Midrash Detective"

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
The Point Is Getting Lost
Joel Tetreau wrote:

I'm mixing humor with a point.
[SNIP]
So I'm getting a thought or two in and trying to have fun with him/this at the same time.
[SNIP]
Don't read more into my friendly joust that you should.

I have come back to this several times this evening, thinking how to respond -- for the details that I snipped do not characterize Kevin fairly -- without turning the thread further into a discussion of Kevin rather than his ideas. (By the way, if you do not know that Kevin has a sense of humor, you do not know him well at all.) Not having identified a good path in that direction, I will simply say that what you are characterizing as humor is coming across as derision. This is particularly ironic because it sounds so much like what you term "Type A" fundamentalism.

Moreover, you are losing a real opportunity to do what you say that you want to do: warn folks about the ideas with which you disagree. I am one of the ones trying to figure much of this out, and to put it simply, what you are terming humor is getting in the way of the ideas. I do not want to come across as faulting you for having a concern or disagreeing, but your point is getting lost.

Now, to return to my prior observation, it seems that underlying your comments is the notion that a belief in congregational polity somehow justifies an acceptance of populism. Am I understanding you correctly? If not, please clarify, but if so, then how do you reach that conclusion? As a Baptist, I believe in soul liberty and the individual priesthood of the believer, and I believe in congregational polity. But I do not see how that would lead me to accept populism. For example, earlier in the thread, Ed writes:

Ed Vasicek wrote:

Equal access to the Father, equal status in Christ, and the right to challenge with the Word of God seems to be a given (at least, I hope it is!). That is not the same as claiming equal competence or equally weighted respect for an opinion.

I agree with both statements, and I think that they encapsulate a key issue here. It seems that the second statement runs counter to populism. Am I missing something?

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5084
Polity and populism
Brent Marshall wrote:

it seems that underlying your comments is the notion that a belief in congregational polity somehow justifies an acceptance of populism. Am I understanding you correctly? If not, please clarify, but if so, then how do you reach that conclusion? As a Baptist, I believe in soul liberty and the individual priesthood of the believer, and I believe in congregational polity. But I do not see how that would lead me to accept populism.

I got the impression he was saying that utterly rejecting populism would require rejecting congregational polity... and Kevin does sound like he's rejecting it utterly (though I think that's not the case... either that or he would define it more narrowly and utterly reject the more narrowly defined idea).

I did have a similar thought myself, but I'd say it alot differently. That is, if one argues so passionately against (apparently) anything that smacks even a little bit of of Common Sense Realism or populism, how can you--at the end of the day--be a dispensationalist? But--as some have suggested--I may be incorrect in my impression that he is as down on these ideas as all that. But that he sees anything more than the tiniest bit of good in these ways of thinking seems unlikely to me given what he has written recently and also in the past. So I am intrigued to see, someday, how one can be diametrically opposed to Common Sense Realism (even in the watered down version in American Fundamentalism) and populism and still hold to dispensationalism.

As for congregationalism, though, I don't think it requires any populism. You don't have to believe that the masses have much of value to say/do in order to believe God instructed His church to make many decisions collectively. Since the "ordinary person" outside the church is not Spirit indwelt... well, what goes on when a congregation discusses and decides is something else.
Still, Kevin seems to see any populism among believers as a pretty unhealthy thing as well.

Kevin T. Bauder
Offline
User
Joined: Sat, Jun 6 2009
Posts: 196
Leaving my sacrifice at the altar. . .

Joel,

As you note, I am not at all offended by your disagreement with me. I remain very grateful for the pastoral contribution that you have made in the lives of my close family. I am also grateful for the personal encouragement that you have offered at difficult moments in my own life.

I am, however, concerned about the following statement:

"He referred to my leadership once as being a leader of the illiterate because of my lack of ability to spell....This sort of thing goes both ways."

If this is what is motivating your comments, we might need to take a step back. I do not wish to have any perception, either in public or private, that there exists some personal animus between us. Still, I cannot recall having ever connected your name with any such comments. If I have done so, then I am eager to apologize. Can you please remind me of when and where these comments were made?

I really, really hate to address private offenses in public, but this offense is now evidently a public matter. I would like to see it resolved.

Blessings, my brother.

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
Go ahead and give your offering!

Kevin,

Will call you. For sake of the public note, there is no "angst" just "disagreement" here. The comment you made is little concern but I'm thrilled you would go to the length you are. We will review this together. All is well.

If you think it is needed we can make a joint statement about what you said, how I took it and what our conclusion is.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Kevin T. Bauder
Offline
User
Joined: Sat, Jun 6 2009
Posts: 196
Is this public or private?

Joel,

Thank you for your offer to call, but that is really not what is needed right now.

You have lit up a good many pixels in this thread talking about me personally. Most of what you say is not very flattering. That's alright--you are entitled to your opinion and you have a right to express it. Doubtless there are plenty of times when I am arrogant, obtuse, and humorless. For you to point these things out does not lead me to think less of you.

But then you also make a specific accusation. This accusation amounts to a charge of having slandered you. You cite this charge publicly as a justification for some of the rather harsh judgments that you have also expressed publicly. It is a serious accusation.

So we now have a public scandal. The best and most Christian way of dealing with the scandal is for me to apologize publicly for wrongs done. The problem is that I cannot remember having done the wrong! I cannot recall any occasion upon which I have connected your name with the ugly things that you say I said about you.

A private call would have been appropriate before the public accusation was made, but it is hardly the solution to a public scandal. Please tell me where I have directed these offensive comments against you. I have every wish to acknowledge a wrong and to ask forgiveness, but I find myself in the uncomfortable position of not even being able to remember committing the wrong! Was it in private conversation? Did you hear about this from a third party? Was it a public statement? How long ago did it occur?

Now that this has been made public, I do not see how we can try to resolve it simply behind closed doors.

For what it's worth, I think you're a better pastor than I have ever been (and you may recall that I was in pastoral ministry for fifteen years before coming to Central Seminary). I respect you for it. So let's get this squared away.

Kevin

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5084
Publi, then private, then public again?

Kevin, I've encouraged Joel to try to clear it up offline. Looks like what he suggested above was talking through it and then posting the results. That would probably be both the quickest and most edifying route to a positive end. And if he posts something public after you have a good talk, that's still a public resolution.

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
Trying

Kevin,

I've called and written an email. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
First Apology

To All,

Let me give what may be the first of a "grouping" of apologies. For you budding leaders out there.....this is how not to manage a discussion. Horrible stewardship of a conversation. My first apology is to the SI community here. I allowed a discussion that at least in part needed to happen privatly to go public. Will strive to do better in the future. After Kevin and I chat in private I may be coming back to the community with more apologies.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
What will happen

Kevin,

Here's what will happen now. You and I will have a private conversation first. The two of us will figure out together what happened. If I was wrong I will seek your forgiveness and the forgiveness of the SI community. I would imagine if you believe at some point you were wrong, you'll do the same. If your not going to do that, I will simply present to the moderators what I've presented to you by way of email. l will submit to their wisdom as to who or whom is to blame here. If I have misrepresented you, I'll be the first to apologize and admit to it. I don't appreciate your wanting to take this to the next level publically, after appealing to a private conversation. If you want a fight there is a part of my flesh that would meet you in the ring....but clearly that would just add more "wrong" to that which has already been wrong. While some of my comments the last few days don't reveal it, I love you dearly in the Lord, respect you for your leadership and realize how much you have helped me personally. I regret that I choose to go down this road altogether. I should have left alone the few differences I have with you.......in the grand view of things I agree with much more than I disagree. I hate public or private fights with firends....and you are a friend even though I haven't demonstrated that. I don't plan to revisit this topic once we are on the other side.

Most Seriously

Joel Tetreau

Jay C.
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditor
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 2102
Joel Tetreau wrote: To All,
Joel Tetreau wrote:

To All,

Let me give what may be the first of a "grouping" of apologies. For you budding leaders out there.....this is how not to manage a discussion. Horrible stewardship of a conversation. My first apology is to the SI community here. I allowed a discussion that at least in part needed to happen privatly to go public. Will strive to do better in the future. After Kevin and I chat in private I may be coming back to the community with more apologies.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Joel,

Apology accepted. Glad to hear that you've reached out to Dr. Bauder and hoping that this is resolved quickly.

I'd like to discuss your initial point first though - you wondered how populism influenced our church polity. I think that's a point that merits discussion. I've been a congregation-run church for almost all of my life, but now I'm leaning more towards a team of elders/deacons. This was a partial reason why. Would anyone who is a congregational-lead church leader like to take a swing at how we reconcile the two [if they can be done].

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

Mike Durning
Mike Durning's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 568
Jay C wrote: Joel, Apology
Jay C wrote:

Joel,

Apology accepted. Glad to hear that you've reached out to Dr. Bauder and hoping that this is resolved quickly.

I'd like to discuss your initial point first though - you wondered how populism influenced our church polity. I think that's a point that merits discussion. I've been a congregation-run church for almost all of my life, but now I'm leaning more towards a team of elders/deacons. This was a partial reason why. Would anyone who is a congregational-lead church leader like to take a swing at how we reconcile the two [if they can be done].

Dear Jay,

I'm sure Joel is busy with reaching out to Dr. Bauder, but I can tell you that Joel's position on congregational vs. elder led polity is rather complex but well developed from a variety of Biblical texts. You can read it here . The reason I post it is that I happen to think Joel is on to something.

Kind regards,

Mike Durning

Bob Hayton
Bob Hayton's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Mon, Jul 27 2009
Posts: 470
Great post

I appreciated Bauder's follow up post here. He brings up many good points and I can see how Finneyism and populism, coupled with common sense could lead to fundamentalist excesses. I'm sure it influences all of evangelicalism today to some extent too. I don't think it's just populism and common sense but a whole host of factors and I'm looking forward to the next posts in this series as Bauder continues to lay out a good detailed picture of fundamentalist history.

As to the Joel - Kevin debacle, perhaps the moderators could remove those quite personal posts from the discussion thread. It distracts from the post and the discussion.

Thanks

__________________

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7

I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

Ed Vasicek
Ed Vasicek's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 771
Bob Hayton wrote: I
Bob Hayton wrote:

I appreciated Bauder's follow up post here. He brings up many good points and I can see how Finneyism and populism, coupled with common sense could lead to fundamentalist excesses. I'm sure it influences all of evangelicalism today to some extent too. I don't think it's just populism and common sense but a whole host of factors and I'm looking forward to the next posts in this series as Bauder continues to lay out a good detailed picture of fundamentalist history.

As to the Joel - Kevin debacle, perhaps the moderators could remove those quite personal posts from the discussion thread. It distracts from the post and the discussion.

Thanks

I am with you on all points, especially removing the posts.

__________________

"The Midrash Detective"

Susan R
Susan R's picture
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3214
A balance

This has been a great series so far- it is always good, IMO, to ask ourselves why we cut the end off the ham.

There lacks a balance in Fundamentalism, IMO, between how God often takes a very humble person (of station and of character) with few (of what we would consider) essential qualifications and uses them to work great things, and the person who is intellectually gifted and diligently studies to 'show themselves approved unto God'. Paul was oozing intelligence and special revelation from every pore, and to help keep him in check, God crippled him. I think this is a warning to us to keep our pursuit of knowledge in proper balance. It is also gratifying to think that God can use even weakest among us(Mtt. 15:22-28, John 6:9, 1 Cor. 1:27 come to mind) to work something great, but the average Joe can get carried away with that idea to the point where they elevate ignorance over education, which is a great excuse for just being mentally lazy. I agree that some Fundamentalists took the idea of 1 Cor 1:27 and ran headlong down the pike with it. That they were unknowlingly influenced by CSR or SCSR is probably a valid premise- but I believe large movements in society have many, many contributing percursors. Early America was largely populated by farmers, servants, ex-convicts, and other menial laborers- it's no coincidence that populism was... popular. Salvation itself appeals to those who are looking up from the bottom of the barrel, and is seldom embraced by those who are wealthy or of highly respected positions in society. (Luke 18:25)

Knowledge is a tool, and so are we in the hands of God. I want to be the sharpest tool in His hands that I can be, and IMO that involves studying not just the Bible, but a wide variety of sources that apply to the direction I believe God has called me to go in. I also know that the only reason I have the sense to tie my shoes (or pull the Velcro strap) is because He has granted me that ability. Just as faith without works is dead, so is intelligence and scholarship without the physical acts of caring for others- aiding the poor, the widow, the fatherless, those with hanging hands and feeble knees... and in my relatively few years involved in ministry, I see folks falling off one side of the fence or other. Either they're studying so much that they seldom reach out to physically minister, or they spend so much time out and about that they have only the vaguest idea of what they believe and why. And IMO talking from a platform and writing books is a very limited method of ministering. It's often just another way of keeping the unwashed masses at arm's length while still feeling as if one is helping people.

I agreed with the post about how people tend to believe that their particular interest or calling is The Most Important- and that passion is most often a good passion. The scholar delights in knowledge, the carpenter in building physical structures, the doctor in healing... and thus in a church we have many members with different interests and abilities working in concert, each enthusiastic about their function, and to balance that we are commanded to not compare ourselves among ourselves, which in itself is a sticky wicket. But when I go to the doctor, he works from an office built with the calloused hands of the carpenter, the roofer, the plumber... we just can't take for granted what value each and every person can bring to the work of God. Accessing a multitude of counselors is a good practice, because the insight we receive can come from the strangest places.

Whatever schools of thought affect and influence us in certain directions, there is the assurance that the Holy Spirit will lead us to truth, and we can correct a mistaken direction by measuring each and every theory against its consistency with Biblical principle.

__________________

Susan R

Blogging at Sunniemom's Survival Guide

Mike Durning
Mike Durning's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 568
Bob Hayton wrote: I
Bob Hayton wrote:

I appreciated Bauder's follow up post here. He brings up many good points and I can see how Finneyism and populism, coupled with common sense could lead to fundamentalist excesses. I'm sure it influences all of evangelicalism today to some extent too. I don't think it's just populism and common sense but a whole host of factors and I'm looking forward to the next posts in this series as Bauder continues to lay out a good detailed picture of fundamentalist history.

As to the Joel - Kevin debacle, perhaps the moderators could remove those quite personal posts from the discussion thread. It distracts from the post and the discussion.

Thanks

As I brought up on some previous threads, please, moderators, do not remove any posts.
1). Later on, when these threads are reviewed by others, they will make little sense if edited. There will be responses to comments that no longer exist, an uneven feel to the thread's progression, etc. This is beside the fact that, when finally clarified, both men were saying some important things about the topic despite the personal interchange that inadvertantly got out of control.
2). It speaks well of us when people can see that problems are resolved in a godly, Biblical fashion. We should not attempt to remove the record of all problems and their resolutions. People need to see that we all have feet of clay, and that despite this, Biblical unity and forgiveness is practiced here.

I have boundless admiration for Dr. Bauder and Dr. Tetreau. I never thought they were incapable of mistakes, either in communication or intent. Letting us see how "the big boys" deal with them will enrich and teach us all. Yes, I'm that confident.

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 319
Clay pots, past and present
Mike Durning wrote:

we all have feet of clay

And isn't it just totally awesome that God uses people like us. From church history past to the history being made presently, we are all just a bunch of clay pots that God uses and will continue to use for His glory.

What a gracious and glorious God.

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Bob Hayton
Bob Hayton's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Mon, Jul 27 2009
Posts: 470
I can see your point, Mike

I can see your point, Mike. But the posts in question could be removed in a careful way that preserves the flow of the comments.

It becomes quite intra-mural (don't know if that's the word I'm searching for), to leave such posts in. Someone reading the post and jumping in the comments may bail quickly when they encounter a direct interpersonal dispute that's only tangentially related to the post at hand. At times such editing is needed, as are other normal sorts of moderating.

Just my opinion. I do think their exchange can be helpful, but it could also give occasion to solidify a wrong impression many have of fundamentalists. "They're always fighting about something...."

__________________

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7

I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

Jim Peet
Jim Peet's picture
Online
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditorAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3256
Forum Director Comment

The moderation team has discussed whether or not to remove / edit previous posts on this thread. At this time we have decided NOT to do that.

Please feel free to continue discussing Dr Bauder's article, but no more comments about whether to delete / edit / remove / etc will be allowed.

Thanks Jim Peet, Forum Director (please don't discuss this comment either!)

Greg Linscott
Greg Linscott's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Fri, May 22 2009
Posts: 673
What Comment?

Smile

__________________

Just and holy is Thy Name, I am all unrighteousness;
False and full of sin I am; Thou art full of truth and grace.
-Charles Wesley

Charlie
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 822
Back to the Subject

I definitely see the pragmatist/entertainment principle at work. I wonder, then, why Fundamentalism has been so opposed to CCM. For example, the church I grew up in would host rodeos, stunt bikers, mega game nights, karate demonstrations, etc. for "evangelism." We played games and had contests in youth group, such as "Who will drink a live goldfish for an Orioles ticket?" We gave kids toys and candy for coming on our bus routes. But CCM was mixing the church with the world, and was entirely inappropriate for evangelism, worship, or even entertainment.

I don't want to discuss music per se (anything but that!), but how populism and pragmatism in Fundamentalism operated to choose which portions of culture could be appropriated.

__________________

My Blog: www.sacredpage.wordpress.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
Thanks for the Useful Link

Mike, thank you for posting the link to Joel's piece, "The Decision-Making Process of the Local NT Church." Joel, thanks for doing that work and posting it so that we can benefit from it, also. I have only been able to scan through it quickly at this point, but I see that I want to come back to it soon and go through it more carefully.

What I am still missing is the link between the ideas advocated there, such as congregational polity and leadership by a plurality of elders, and the notion of populism. I am beginning to wonder whether there is some level of miscommunication occurring due to persons using "populism" in differing ways.

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter

Todd Wood
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 319
Another question

How many fundamentalists in America like listening to Glenn Beck's populism, er excuse me, patriotism throughout the week?

Look at his latest book . . .

Glenn Beck's Common Sense (2009)

Populism and Common Sense are the rage in America in 2009. But don't let your common sense in your personal study lead you to God in the way it has led Beck.

__________________

Thinking of heart issues . . .
www.heartissuesforlds.org
www.idaho4hisglory.org
www.alwaystheword.org

Joel Tetreau
Joel Tetreau's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 314
Apology #2

Kevin and I are talking.This is a good thing.

I've asked forgiveness of Kevin and I'm asking you all to forgive me for the following reasons.

1. My lack of charity. I thought I could mix in humor and make a point. That missed badly.
2. I should have taken "certain frustrations" to Kevin in private instead of here.
3. My statement was less than accurate. I took a statement Kevin made gave it an interpretation and translated the interpretation as the intended meaning. A better friend would have made certain clarity with an accusatory statement like I made first....and then in private.
4. I'm overly sensitive about a few items. I need to relax and laugh at myself....everyone else does (that's from my wife!)
5. I apologize to the friends and family of Kevin. When I hurt him I hurt you. Kevin has great family and friends who I love.

Thanks for your patience with me.

I may be coming to you all with more apologies as the Lord continues to soften my heart in the days to come.

You are all loved.

Straight Ahead!

Joel

Diane Heeney
Diane Heeney's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 455
a blessing

Bro Joel,
Not only am I grateful for the example you have given, but I am pleased that it is being retained in this thread. It will receive great visibility here. It is a benefit to us all. Blogging in the Spirit.

Blessings,
~Diane

__________________

"I pray to God this day to make me an extraordinary Christian." --Whitefield
http://strengthfortoday.wordpress.com

Jay C.
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminEditor
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 2102
Todd Wood wrote: How many
Todd Wood wrote:

How many fundamentalists in America like listening to Glenn Beck's populism, er excuse me, patriotism throughout the week?

Look at his latest book . . .

Glenn Beck's Common Sense (2009)

Populism and Common Sense are the rage in America in 2009. But don't let your common sense in your personal study lead you to God in the way it has led Beck.

Looking to read Liberty and Tyranny first, but read the first couple pages of the above a week ago. Good stuff.

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
A Question
Susan R wrote:

Paul was oozing intelligence and special revelation from every pore, and to help keep him in check, God crippled him. I think this is a warning to us to keep our pursuit of knowledge in proper balance.

Help me, please. I am not seeing how our pursuit of knowledge fits with God's revelation to Paul and Paul's thorn in the flesh.

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter

Bob T.
Offline
Former memberUser
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 418
Two against the elitist and another cometh.

Two men were arguing about the plural of "you". The man from South Carolina said the plural of you is obviously "you all." The man from New Jersey insisted that common sense indicated it was "yous." Along came a stranger. They asked him to resolve the issue. The stranger stated that the plural of "you" is "you." They laughed at him and his obviously stupid answer. The stranger insisted that he was right and indicated he had a degree in English and taught the subject.. The other two men then stated; "that is the problem with you elitists. You have a degree and think you know everything but have no common sense. We will trust our common sense and your answer is worse than ours and obviously wrong!" Then they looked down the path and saw a man coming carrying a King James Bible so...

Dan Miller
Dan Miller's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 213
One more level of thought
The Article wrote:

The fact is, though, that not everyone is equally qualified to make every choice or to hold every opinion.

I'll post some more extensive thoughts on this, but here's my first response:

Considering this anti-populism of itself,
If it is reasonable to assert that some lack capability, then such reasoning would also limit their capability to select the capable. (Otherwise, the reasoning will have to explain why everyman has some capabilities and not others.)
Therefore, everyman is either "capable" (if the reasoning is wrong) or "incapable and unable to know who to listen to" (if the reasoning is right).

Kevin? Joseph?

Susan R
Susan R's picture
Offline
ModeratorUserUser accounts adminAdmin
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 3214
2 Cor. 12
Brent Marshall wrote:
Susan R wrote:

Paul was oozing intelligence and special revelation from every pore, and to help keep him in check, God crippled him. I think this is a warning to us to keep our pursuit of knowledge in proper balance.

Help me, please. I am not seeing how our pursuit of knowledge fits with God's revelation to Paul and Paul's thorn in the flesh.

2Corinthians 12:7, 10-11 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure... Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
The pursuit of knowledge and the abundance of revelation will be balanced by humility either voluntarily, (we keep ourselves in check) or God will find a way to keep us humble. I think the rest of that post (#39) clarifies my position adequately.

__________________

Susan R

Blogging at Sunniemom's Survival Guide

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
Susan R wrote: Brent
Susan R wrote:
Brent Marshall wrote:
Susan R wrote:

Paul was oozing intelligence and special revelation from every pore, and to help keep him in check, God crippled him. I think this is a warning to us to keep our pursuit of knowledge in proper balance.

Help me, please. I am not seeing how our pursuit of knowledge fits with God's revelation to Paul and Paul's thorn in the flesh.

2Corinthians 12:7, 10-11 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure... Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
The pursuit of knowledge and the abundance of revelation will be balanced by humility either voluntarily, (we keep ourselves in check) or God will find a way to keep us humble. I think the rest of that post (#39) clarifies my position adequately.

OK, you meant in proper balance with humility. I agree that humility is important. Interestingly, it is an attitude that here focuses on how we approach the pursuit of knowledge, how we view it, not the degree to which we pursue it. How could we properly say that a person who pursues more knowledge is, based on that alone, any less humble?

The original point was about Paul, though, and I do not see how this particular experience of Paul provides a warning for us. Specifically, the language of 2Co 12:7 indicates, not that the thorn was remedial (God acted because Paul failed voluntarily to keep himself in check), but that the thorn was preventative ("to keep me from exalting myself" (NASB)). Also, while the link between the thorn and the revelation Paul received is explicit, a link to the intelligence Paul possessed is not. The two are very different. I fear that you are reading in some things here.

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
A Counter-Example?
Dan Miller wrote:
The Article wrote:

The fact is, though, that not everyone is equally qualified to make every choice or to hold every opinion.

I'll post some more extensive thoughts on this, but here's my first response:

Considering this anti-populism of itself,
If it is reasonable to assert that some lack capability, then such reasoning would also limit their capability to select the capable. (Otherwise, the reasoning will have to explain why everyman has some capabilities and not others.)
Therefore, everyman is either "capable" (if the reasoning is wrong) or "incapable and unable to know who to listen to" (if the reasoning is right).

Kevin? Joseph?

Dan, you seem to be equating the qualification to understand/do something with the qualification to choose someone who understands/does it. In practical terms, this equates doing ophthalmic surgery with picking an ophthalmic surgeon (another example is practicing law and choosing a lawyer). I grant that there is certain knowledge that is helpful to both tasks. However, it does not seem that the inability to do the former implies the inability to do the latter (in either case). Thus, I do not think that the reasoning is right. I have a hunch that the issue relates to whether ability should be measured as a binary (all-or-nothing) variable or along a continuum (degrees of ability).

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter

Dan Miller
Dan Miller's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 213
Good point, Brent, but...

I recognize with you that the capability to choose/do is different from the capability to select the chooser/doer. I wasn't saying they were the same. I was only saying that they are both subject to charges of incapacity to make the best selection. And, as far as I can see, they both suffer from the same lack of response to those charges.

The question regards the capability to make the best selection, not just to make a selection. The lay person choosing a surgeon never really knows that his selection was best.

There is a very important distinction between a lawyer/doctor and an authority who will guide you in spiritual truth.
I won't speak about how the law functions, but doctors do things for you. You have a cataract and I remove it. It does not matter at all if you understand what a cataract is or how cataract surgery works. I do and you see. That's it.
( It might make you more comfortable to know what is going on, but it isn't necessary if you're going to leave the choices up to me. )

Our faith is not like that. Our salvation and life in Christ is based on what we know and what we believe.

The comparison with medicine or law would work if Christianity was a matter of doing pious works within the church of God, overseen by the proper priest.

But it isn't. It is not enough to have works done to you or to be told what to do. Each must know. Each must repent. Each must believe.

Sure, you can select a pastor/teacher that you will trust and believe what he tells you. But first, you need to form some sort of basis for choosing that person.

Aaron Blumer
Aaron Blumer's picture
Offline
UserEditorAdmin
Joined: Mon, Jun 1 2009
Posts: 5084
Limits of non-populism and non-common sense

I think Dan's angle illustrates the absolute limits--if that's the right way to put it--of non-populism and non-common sense. It's one thing to assert that Common Sense Realism and Populism were/are strong influences and not for the better. And we can list all day the negative results of one or the other. But whatever is accepted in their place has to end at some point.
If the pre-modern attitude of accepting the authority of someone "more qualified" to "interpret" what seems to be reality is the alternative, even that clearly must end somewhere, because, as Dan has pointed out, faith is inescapably individual in the end. We shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ, we're told, and answer for ourselves and only ourselves.

It's very trendy to poo-poo the "rugged individualism" of American/western society, but the extreme alternative many seem to want to sell is not compatible with Scripture.

KevinM
KevinM's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 77
Spiritual discernment

I'm glad the discussion has wandered this way--thanks Dan.

As far as "qualified experts" go, I suppose I'd prefer to have Dan do my laser surgery. But I would be happy to hear a good Bible lesson by Aaron or Brent or Charlie...or Dan, who is a youth leader at his church. So I agree with Dan's emphasis: We are discussing spiritual truth here, not mere skill in some academic discipline. And I agree with Aaron's desire to stake out some limits, lest we wander away from our beliefs in the priesthood of each believer.

All believers who study the Bible carefully will become “competent, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16). And all believers can attain spiritual maturity, making spiritual decisions based on the "constant use" of Scripture--literally training their powers of discernment to distinguish good from evil (Hebrews 5:14).

Not to drag church music into this discussion (but this is my academic discipline, and it's a fair example) . . . we've made exactly this error in our modern "solution" to church music problems. We're addicted to the advice of "musical experts" who give complicated technical answers (stopped anapestic beat, anyone?) to questions of spiritual discernment. When the worship wars came, we didn't have any shortage of expert advice! Did this solve any of our church music questions?

What we should have done, in retrospect, was emphasize that our church music problems were spiritual problems demanding a spiritual solution--rather than (mere) problems of music theory or music history or aesthetics. By doing this, we could have given believers hope--encouragement that they were equipped to practice spiritual discernment all by themselves.

Okay, disclaimer--everyone understands, in context, that I'm not disregarding the pastoral ministry or the teaching ministry of God's chosen shepherd at each local church. Right? Our pastors still have the God-given tasks of teaching, encouragement, and even rebuke.

Dan Miller
Dan Miller's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 213
Fuller response - or rather, request for more...
The Article wrote:

The fact is, though, that not everyone is equally qualified to make every choice or to hold every opinion.

This is probably true in some sense. BUT:

1. It isn't supported by the papers so far.
- Dr. Bauder, I don't see why you put this last paragraph in this paper. It might be true, but it doesn't seem to follow from what is said previously. Therefore, it is hard to reflect on its support and see what you mean by "qualified," etc. You might mean something important by "qualified" that will alter how we should read that sentence, we just don't know.
- "Elitism" has been on this forum before. I'm interested in understanding the finer details of how you mean this.

2. It is too vague to be useful.
- Does this mean that not everyone is equally capable of becoming qualified?
- Does this mean that some of us should designate ourselves as "incapable" and have a trust in the choices and opinions of an expert without Scriptural consultation?
- Should the church body designate someone as "incapable"?
- If someone is "incapable," is that relative or absolute, and what ramifications are there?
(- Is everyone equally capable of selecting which experts who are capable? The rationale that limits the capability of everyman would also limit his capability to select the capable. Such reasoning would render him not expert-dependent, but necessarily adrift.)* *posted above
- What if I read something in the Word that my experts don't seem willing to accept, when should I doubt my own observations/opinions and when should I break from the experts?

3. The issues that SD and Charlie discussed need to be considered.
The fact that something does not always work does not mean that it isn't God's means of working. God has said that preaching the Gospel will bring men to repentance. Nevertheless, Scripture tells us that sometimes the Gospel is preached and men refuse to repent and believe. That does not invalidate Gospel-preaching as able to bring to repentance.
I would expect the same to be true of illumination. It will sometimes result in people reading the Word and coming to wrong beliefs and wrong convictions. Nevertheless, the Word, illuminated by the Holy Spirit is still the method of God's choice. In other words, the problem with Biblicism is that it doesn't always work.

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
Quick Thoughts

I have little time tonight, so I will just mention a few things briefly.

Dan, you make a good point that spiritual truth is not exactly like practicing medicine or law, but I think that there is still a valid comparison. On one hand, I can make a certain choice based only on my own knowledge and judgment; on the other, considering my limitations, I can simply follow the judgment of someone I trust. (There are alternatives in between, but I am focusing on the extremes.) You mention this:

Dan Miller wrote:

Sure, you can select a pastor/teacher that you will trust and believe what he tells you. But first, you need to form some sort of basis for choosing that person.

I agree. My point, though, is that I think that there is a different judgment going on in the two situations and that some different information is involved. I want to think about this further.
--
Aaron, I agree that there are problems at the extremes. I am concerned lest we get too preoccupied with the extremes and, after rejecting one extreme, we embrace the other extreme as if it were the only alternative.
--
Kevin, I agree that there is a danger in treating spiritual issues in music as if they were only musicology issues. I want to focus on one question that you posed, however.

KevinM wrote:

When the worship wars came, we didn't have any shortage of expert advice! Did this solve any of our church music questions?

I do not know about the "any," but it is clear that the general conflict remains. But what does that prove? We might also ask whether populistic viewpoints have solved our church music questions. I do not think that either of these failures, standing alone, resolves the question.

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter

Charlie
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 822
A Reformation Example
Aaron Blumer wrote:

as Dan has pointed out, faith is inescapably individual in the end. We shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ, we're told, and answer for ourselves and only ourselves.

I would like to appeal to the Reformers as a historical example, to show one possible way of recognizing the potentials and problems of Sola Scriptura. The medieval Catholic uneducated laity generally operated under the rubric of "implicit faith." Here is the idea: Proposition A entails propositions B, C, and D. Implicit faith says that if a person confesses proposition A, then he confesses propositions B, C, and D whether or not he agrees with them or is even aware of their existence. So Catholic laity were taught to confess, "I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church." Based on the theory of implicit faith, they thereby confessed the deity of Christ, the Trinity, Christ's satisfaction for sins, etc. As long as a person makes this confession and continues to receive grace through the sacraments, they will be saved because of their "implicit faith" mediated through the Church.

Of course, the Reformers rejected implicit faith and said that each person needs to explicitly, cognitively confess the core truths of Christianity. This added responsibility raises the question of the ability of every (normal) person to understand the Gospel and truths definitive of Christianity, such as the Apostles Creed. How did the Reformers answer it? With a huge educational initiative. Luther founded public schools throughout Germany through his agents Melanchthon and Bugenhagen. Calvin established the Academy at Geneva. All the Reformers wrote catechisms which were designed as tools to teach the common folk the basics of Christianity so that they could confess the faith and come to the Lord's Supper.

Even then, none of the Reformers thought that uneducated people could actually produce creative theology or interpret Scripture completely on their own. Luther said that German may be enough for a priest to preach the Gospel and perform the sacraments, but to defend the faith or skillfully expound the Word, he must have knowledge of both Greek and Hebrew. Melanchthon, one of the great innovators in education (introducing graded teaching, among other things), declared that the humanities were foundational to a proper understanding of Scripture, since they train the mind in grammar, logic, and the interpretation of texts.

The Reformer's answer to Sola Scriptura, and explicit faith, is education. Education is necessary for most people even to confess Christianity. Education is even more necessary to expound the Scriptures and defend the faith. Incidentally, the academic requirements for ministry in 16th-17th century Protestantism are quite a bit higher than any seminary (of which I am aware) today. "Elitism" then seems to be the modus operandi of the Protestant faith. The Reformers did not turn anyone away who wanted to learn, but they insisted that deep understanding only came after diligent pursuit of knowledge with piety.

I present the past for a measure of comparison to the present. More information about the Protestant attitude toward education can be found in Frederick Eby's Early Protestant Educators.

__________________

My Blog: www.sacredpage.wordpress.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

Bob Hayton
Bob Hayton's picture
Offline
UserEditor
Joined: Mon, Jul 27 2009
Posts: 470
Great thoughts Charlie

I'm with you Charlie on the importance of education. When you insert a philosophy that everything is clear enough to most of us that we don't really need to depend too much on scholarship, you end up lowering the bar. The intricacies of the faith lose out and the plainer elements are all that's left. Of course, the argument can be made that losing out on other elements impoverishes what's left and deceives you into thinking you still have the kernel of essential truth, when in fact you have just a distillation of some of it.

I think Scripture is clear enough to be received by Christ's church in a corporate sense. I believe in priesthood of the believer, but I'm not so sure perspicuity is an individual doctrine (perspicuous for each individual out there).

__________________

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7

I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

KevinM
KevinM's picture
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 77
Any?
Brent Marshall wrote:

I do not know about the "any," but it is clear that the general conflict remains. But what does that prove? We might also ask whether populistic viewpoints have solved our church music questions. I do not think that either of these failures, standing alone, resolves the question.

Oh, I agree that our "populist" friends didn't provide a helpful answer, either! Perhaps my previous comment suffered from hyperbole! If needed, I can retract the use of "any."

At the heart of the question, I want to express agreement that people are gifted with varying abilities. We should recognize and respect those who have special gifts in a particular area. But I hope we can learn to temper our enthusiasm for our expert friends--for three reasons. First, our "expert" friends suffer from the from the noetic effects of sin, just as we do. Second, our "expert" friends may have special ability in one area and remarkable weaknesses in another. Third, their specialized knowledge should not be confused with spiritual wisdom, which is entirely a different thing.

So, I'm happy giving props to the experts--we pray that they practice the virtue of intellectual humility--but my sense is that they are not the heart of the issue. My gut feeling is that we need more of an emphasis on spiritual discernment as a discipline that can be taught and practiced by all believers.

Dan Miller
Dan Miller's picture
Offline
ModeratorUser
Joined: Wed, May 6 2009
Posts: 213
Good points, everyone.

The difference (choosing -vs- selecting choosers) Brent is pointing out is important.
Charlie, thanks for the history of how the reformers handled this.

Certainly, the analogy of sheep and shepherding was used for a reason.

Brent, would you agree with this much?:
It would seem that this is one aspect of the struggle that everyone goes through: When should I leave my church?
The church has some God given authority, as do it's leaders (shepherds).
But [every]one has to be able to say, "I am confident by my own study that my flock follows the truth," or, at some breaking point, "I am not confident that this flock is a good one." Short of that breaking point, we struggle to be good sheep or under-shepherds as we are called.

I agree that some should lead (make choices). The basis of this should be God's call as confirmed by the church (however that is supposed to work).
If we ignore the inflammatory parts of Joel T's initial response, we'll find that he raised some good questions about how the church chooses the leader.

So, perhaps we're really discussing the [every] above. Does it belong?

Brent Marshall
Offline
User
Joined: Tue, Jun 16 2009
Posts: 57
More Good Points

More good points here. (I hope this does not sound like a mutual admiration society. Smile). I appreciate the interaction.

Charlie, along with others, I thank you for this useful historical perspective. Education of this type is really, really important.

Kevin, I agree that we must not overemphasize experts. I also agree that we need a greater emphasis on individual believers learning to practice spiritual discernment. I think that this fits well with what Charlie was discussing, for we need to teach both the spiritual truths themselves and the practical ability to apply those truths.

Dan, it is interesting come to the thread and read your comparison to church leadership, for I was thinking last night that if we took some questions and comments about "experts" in this discussion and substituted "pastor/elders" instead, we might look at the ideas in a different light. That is, I think that it would help give us a better perspective on the issues. There needs to be some balance between the ideas of soul liberty and submission to pastoral authority and to other believers in the local church. And as with other things involving balance, there is more than one way to fall off.

__________________

Brent
Things that Matter