Fighting the Bantam Roosters: Baptist Fundamentalism Still Grapples with Its Colorful Heritage

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KevinM
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Ninety years ago we gave ourselves a name: Fundamentalists.

“We suggest that those who still cling to the great fundamentals and who mean to do battle royal for the great fundamentals shall be called ‘Fundamentalists,’” wrote Curtis Lee Laws in the July 1, 1920 issue of the Watchman-Examiner, a Baptist newspaper with loose ties to the Northern Baptist Convention.

And 90 years later, we still discuss the implications of the Fundamentalist label. Back then, the issues seemed crystal clear: either you believed the Bible was true, or you didn’t. Simple to articulate and easy to defend, the idea of Fundamentalism was expressed as core doctrinal beliefs. Lines were drawn. Positions were staked. Ink was spilt, often.

But language is elastic, meaning is elusive, and sometimes words just wear out.

In an era when the media uses “fundamentalist” to describe suicide bombers and child molesters, is it wise for Baptist churches to continue using the term? Does the label still describe a simple set of historic beliefs, or has it come to mean a complicated system of dress codes and organ music, five simple ideas fractured by six degrees of separation?

If we all believe the same thing, why can’t we get along?

These were the issues that were addressed in the “Resolution on Revitalizing Biblical Fundamentalism” passed unanimously by messengers to the 2010 GARBC Conference on June 22 in Schaumburg, Ill. The resolution attempts to summarize several years of realignment among various Baptist groups that splintered in the 1970s. “While we recognize that the term has suffered at the hands of our critics and society at large, we can think of no other term that adequately reflects the heritage and the position of those who have historically stood for the truth of God’s Word,” the resolution says.

The resolution also calls on GARBC churches to “initiate relationships among fundamentalists where barriers have existed due to misunderstanding or political expedience, in a spirit of kind affection and brotherly love, in honor preferring one another.” While questions of inter-church cooperation have sometimes been difficult for Fundamentalists to answer, the resolution asks churches to “establish networks of labor and ministry to meet the challenges of the future, equipping older organizations for the present task where possible, or establishing new ministries where restoration of the old is either impossible or inadvisable.”

James Maxwell, president of Faith Baptist Bible College and member of the GARBC Council of Eighteen, drafted the resolution, assisted by Kevin Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary. (“Doctor Maxwell wrote 99 percent of it,” Bauder says. “He’s been thinking about this for a long time.”) Maxwell also consulted with George Houghton, retired dean of education at Faith Baptist Bible College; and several GARBC pastors, including Tom Alexander, Bryan Augsburger, and David Strope.

“It’s been my desire to see the structures of Fundamentalism rebuilt,” Maxwell said to the GARBC Council of Eighteen when the proposed resolution was discussed a day before its vote. “Fundamentalist unity really started to deteriorate in earnest in 1977, when John R. Rice tried to put together the largest meeting of Fundamentalists ever, at Cobo Hall in Detroit.”

But Rice ended up inviting people who were not historic Fundamentalists, Maxwell says, and as a result, the GARBC and several other groups pulled out. “Since that day I believe the infrastructure of Fundamentalism has been fissured,” Maxwell told the council.

In a later interview with the Baptist Bulletin, Maxwell offered another reason for Fundamentalist rifts.

“I grew up on a farm. My father owned one bantam rooster, an extremely colorful and gorgeous bird. He was beautiful—and he knew it!”

“Back in the 1970s, Fundamentalism became a bantam rooster scratching in the barnyard dirt. We ended up separating over personalities and politics. If you weren’t sufficiently abrasive and in-your-face, you weren’t worthy of being called a Fundamentalist,” Maxwell says.

For the past several years, John Greening has been leading the GARBC to patch up some of the fissures caused by the bantam roosters. “There are other independent Baptists who share our convictions. I want to make new friends with them,” Greening said during his annual address as national representative to the conference messengers. “The GARBC is not a closed club. The speakers we have had at our conference last year, this year, and will have next year, are indicative of that.”

One such example is Tim Jordan, pastor of Calvary Baptist Church, Lansdale, Pennsylvania. He arrived at the conference a day before he was scheduled to preach, just to hang out and hear the other preachers, meet people, and rub shoulders with ministry leaders he knew from other places. And Tim freely admits his outsider status.

Old-timers called Tim’s dad “Chief,” as in, the chief of a different tribe of Baptist Fundamentalists, one that rarely intersected with the GARBC. Now pastoring what was once his father’s church, Tim no longer sees a lot of difference between the two groups.

“So, why is it that we weren’t fellowshipping sooner?” Tim asked before his sermon on Wednesday of the conference, pronouncing his words with at least a little sarcasm—and exasperation. “So … what was the difference?”

Jordan made it clear that he is all for the recent change of mood among Baptists, calling it “an enormous ‘Duh.’”

“So, yeah, kind of like amazing,” Tim says of the conference week. “It has been a joy to be here and I want to thank all of those involved in allowing me to come.”

And the dress codes, the organ music, the war over Bible translations? Jordan addressed these during an afternoon workshop, making a clear distinction between the baggage of cultural fundamentalism and the ideas of historic Fundamentalism.

“If we produce ‘biblical’ reasons for cultural fundamentalism, they [the young Fundamentalists] know you are lying,” Jordan said. “And why do they know you are lying? It’s because you are!”

Jordan stressed the idea of historic Fundamentalism as a way of defending the movement’s ideas to younger pastors and seminary students. “They’re not going to do the ‘emperor’s clothes’ thing anymore,” Jordan said of the young leaders, suggesting “they won’t leave if you don’t lie to them!”

Dan Davey, pastor of Colonial Hills Baptist Church in Virginia Beach, Virginia, was keynote speaker for the GARBC conference. Like Tim Jordan, Davey leads a congregation that is also not in the GARBC, but he agrees with Tim’s summary of the week, and his definition of Fundamentalism.

“I’m a historic Fundamentalist and I use that term a lot with my church,” Davey says, feeling comfortable using the term “as long as you read it from my dictionary.” Both he and Jordan credit consistent expository preaching as their main teaching tool. “Our pulpits are a treasure from the Lord,” Davey says. “In our pulpit, we can provide the definition for our terms. We are a Baptist church—here’s what that means. We are historic Fundamentalists—here’s what that means.”

But Davey also warns of the complicated road ahead for Baptist Fundamentalists who attempt to restate a common set of beliefs—starting with nuanced terminology that can cause some regional confusion. “I would never use the phrase ‘biblical Fundamentalism’ with my congregation,” Davey says, referring to the title of the recently passed GARBC resolution. For Baptist Fundamentalists in the South, the phrase “biblical Fundamentalism” usually means a particular brand of KJV-only church, Davey says.

Having studied with Richard Clearwaters at Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Minneapolis, Davey arrived in Virginia Beach still calling himself a “biblicist” (Clearwaters’ preferred label). But Davey discovered that “biblicist” didn’t work so well for Baptists in the South, what with Pat Robertson just a few miles down the road, famously calling himself a … biblicist. So Davey learned to adjust the terminology he uses, patiently teaching his congregation a new dictionary to replace preconceived notions.

Evangelicals who are reading over our shoulder at this point may feel tempted to gloat about the Fundamentalist identity crisis—until they recall their own struggles over labels. Having dropped the “neo” tag long ago, evangelicals adopted lifeless adjectives like “ecumenical,” an optimistic word describing their willingness to cooperate with anyone and everyone in mass evangelism. Kevin Bauder once described this misstep as “more and more people being converted to less and less Christianity.”

Haunted by their own unfulfilled promise, some evangelicals began adding adjectives such as “conservative” to clarify their intention to build orthodox, gospel-centered churches. And David Wells, writing in The Courage to Be Protestant, suggested “evangelical” may have outlived its usefulness. “Despite its honorable pedigree, despite its many outstanding leaders both past and some in the present, and despite many genuine and upright believers who think of themselves as evangelical, it may now have to be abandoned,” Wells said of the term.

Organizations such as the Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals made enormous strides in distancing themselves from the excesses of their own movement. Carefully articulating a set of doctrinal beliefs, the conservative evangelicals then did a curious thing: they distanced themselves from other Christians who were disorderly in conduct and doctrine.

Over in our neck of the woods, we would call it “separation,” but that term had its baggage, too.

“After 1960, biblical separation became a badge of honor that replaced Bible exposition in the pulpits,” Davey says, choosing his words carefully. As a younger pastor, Davey was mentored by Ernest Pickering, the author of Biblical Separation: The Struggle for a Pure Church. Davey continues to affirm Pickering’s ideas about so-called “secondary separation” (another label!). But Davey also warns that the right separation idea, wrongly coupled with a misapplied cultural fundamentalism, could well destroy the movement. The key, for Davey, is a return to expository preaching and doctrinal clarity, the sort of pulpit ministry that was consistently modeled during the recent GARBC Conference.

John Greening emphasized the same thing when addressing the conference messengers. “I want doctrinally compatible churches and ministries to feel comfortable and confident enough in the GARBC to say that they have found in us a new friend. We should cultivate relationships for fellowship, but also for ministry initiatives such as publishing, training church leaders, global missions, and assisting stateside church planting.”

Meanwhile, James Maxwell is already at work. “Today we are seeing coalitions that would not have been possible 20 years ago,” he told the Council of Eighteen earlier in the week. He should know. One such coalition is the proposed merger between his school, Faith Baptist Bible College, and Bauder’s school, Central Baptist Theological Seminary, Plymouth, Minn. Other signs of growing Fundamentalist cooperation include the annual Men for Christ rallies, local efforts to support Baptist social agencies, annual meetings of the Bible Faculty Leadership Summit, and support of Baptist missionaries by churches in several different Baptist fellowships.

“I believe there needs to be a voice for biblical Fundamentalism that is broader than our own fellowship of churches,” James Maxwell told the Council of Eighteen. And despite Fundamentalism’s long history of bantam roosters, no one on the council looked particularly surprised.

In Tim Jordan’s words, the idea is “an enormous ‘Duh.’”


Kevin Mungons is managing editor of the Baptist Bulletin and editorial director of publications for Regular Baptist Press (Schaumburg, IL). He has previously ministered as an associate pastor and a high school music teacher. He and his wife, Carla, have ten children and live near Chicago. This essay will appear in the September/October issue of the Baptist Bulletin. See www.BaptistBulletin.org for links to 2010 GARBC Conference audio, photo galleries, and conference stories.

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Encouraging

Thanks for the article, Kevin... and happy 90th birthday to Fundamentalism, I guess.

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Does the label still describe a simple set of historic beliefs,

I don't think it ever was a simple set of historic beliefs but I do believe it was a simple set of beliefs + a determination to fight for them and/or separate in order to preserve them. And there's no doubt that much got added on and lumped in later.

I also don't think it's possible to be Fundamentalist without reference to culture. That is, the fundamentals have cultural implications. So biblical fund. will always be "cultural" in that sense. The error has not been that people applied Scripture by drawing lines in response to the world we live in. Rather the error has been failing to recognize that a whole lot of these are matters of liberty of conscience and the work of discerning our positions on them begins where Scripture ends. It's still important work, but it's very different work from expounding Scripture... and it's always on the other side of that important line between Scripture and not-Scripture.

But more to the point, I think it's great that GARBC is reaching out and especially great that it's reaching out toward it's "right," so to speak. Healthy fundamentalism is just too small to thrive in little isolated bits. Need to stick together. I personally hope that more of this reaching out will be reciprocated by other "centers of Fundamentalist identity" like colleges, seminaries, camps, mission boards, other fellowships and associations. We have real foes to fight together.

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Just a bit of history.

Back in the day, say the 30s (when the GARBC separated from the NBC) 'til the early 60s (when the FBF separated from the CBA) the GARBC looked at the men of what became the FBF\CBA as compromisers for staying in the convention until the late 40s. By the time, the FBF men (Cedarholm, the Wenigar brothers, et al.) had separated from the CBA in the mid-60s, the two groups had developed sufficient differences that precluded their joining together organically.
IIRC, Jordan, Sr. was called Chief because of his service in the US Navy. So, the Chief is Chief as in Chief Petty Officer. Can you name another of his peers with a tattoo on his forearm (an anchor IIRC)?

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I appreciate the leadership

I appreciate the leadership of the GARBC in this - great resolution!

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yes, Yes, YES!!! So glad to

yes, Yes, YES!!! So glad to know this is happening; sorry I missed the conference.

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Nice Article, Kevin. Thanks

Nice Article, Kevin. Thanks for giving us a good idea of all that was going on as this was formulated.

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Quote:

One such example is Tim Jordan, pastor of Calvary Baptist Church, Lansdale, Pennsylvania. He arrived at the conference a day before he was scheduled to preach, just to hang out and hear the other preachers, meet people, and rub shoulders with ministry leaders he knew from other places. And Tim freely admits his outsider status.

Old-timers called Tim’s dad “Chief,” as in, the chief of a different tribe of Baptist Fundamentalists, one that rarely intersected with the GARBC. Now pastoring what was once his father’s church, Tim no longer sees a lot of difference between the two groups.

“So, why is it that we weren’t fellowshipping sooner?” Tim asked before his sermon on Wednesday of the conference, pronouncing his words with at least a little sarcasm—and exasperation. “So … what was the difference?”

Jordan made it clear that he is all for the recent change of mood among Baptists, calling it “an enormous ‘Duh.’”

“So, yeah, kind of like amazing,” Tim says of the conference week. “It has been a joy to be here and I want to thank all of those involved in allowing me to come.”

And the dress codes, the organ music, the war over Bible translations? Jordan addressed these during an afternoon workshop, making a clear distinction between the baggage of cultural fundamentalism and the ideas of historic Fundamentalism.

“If we produce ‘biblical’ reasons for cultural fundamentalism, they [the young Fundamentalists] know you are lying,” Jordan said. “And why do they know you are lying? It’s because you are!”

Jordan stressed the idea of historic Fundamentalism as a way of defending the movement’s ideas to younger pastors and seminary students. “They’re not going to do the ‘emperor’s clothes’ thing anymore,” Jordan said of the young leaders, suggesting “they won’t leave if you don’t lie to them!”

SOMEONE out there gets it. This is very exciting, and I'm sorry that I missed the conference and speakers if this was the thrust of the conference. Praise the Lord!

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Many Kudos

Some of you remember the "Forgiveness Project" from 15 years ago or so. It may not have made a real big gospel dent, but one of the men who got that ball rolling was James Maxwell. I'm pretty sure he wrote the gospel tract that was used for it. I've known him for almost 30 years and have appreciated all the "discussions" we had in which his gentle, flexible spirit was evident. We may still have some cultural issue differences but I credit him and some others with keeping us GARBC guys who were getting "restless" from walking away. The year's conference WAS full of good "food", but even more so, full of good "fellowship". When I attended a Men For Christ rally a few years ago, Tim Jordan (who'd attended Pillsbury a few years behind me, and whom I'd not seen for decades) came across a foyer to say hello to me. Didn't think he even remembered me. I was surprised and impressed.
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if this was the thrust of the conference.

No, it wasn't the thrust, I wouldn't say (I was there for the week). The focus was on the greatness and sovereignty of God and the book of Daniel, especially. And I think that's significant as well. Whatever future "fundamentalism as such" has, it's not going to be in focusing on itself. This is one of the things that has been killing it... when fundamentalism became about fundamentalism and little more. So the conference & the GARBC attitude has been encouraging on that point as well. Not ignoring fundamentalism, but not focusing on it either. The focus is on serving God as churches and working together in whatever ways seem prudent and helpful.

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A step in the right direction

I'm excited about what I would call a step in the right direction. History alone will tell us how many positive steps we take...but I'm excited about this. Thanks for the well written article, Kevin.

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@ Aaron

Aaron, do you know if there were any plans to release the audio on a website for download?

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Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
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audio link

Jay--

Here's a link for all twelve conference sermons

The comments by Dr. Jordan before his Wednesday sermon are notable.

Rumor has it that the IT guys are also going to post the video; I'll let you know if that happens.
We also have the video from the afternoon workshop with Dr. Davey and Dr. Jordan, which is quite interesting. I'll see if maybe we can get that posted, too.

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As a former pastor of a GARBC

As a former pastor of a GARBC church, I'm greatly encouraged. I remember the exclusive mentality that was prevalent in the GARBC years ago. At my ordination council I was asked if I planned to be loyal to the GARBC and heard concern expressed because I hadn't attended a GARBC school and had fundamentalist friends who were not in the GARBC.

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Yeah

Thanks for the encouraging report.

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Preach the Word, duh

I praise the Lord for these men, who are bringing common sense back to fundamentalism, and most of all bringing the principle that the Text is king. As a student at Central Seminary in Virginia Beach and a member under Pastor Daniel's (Dr. Davey) ministry, these are not just words he is giving at this conference, but a life of humility and the grace philosophy of ministry that is genuinely lives out and preaches to the congregation he serves at Colonial and the students at Central (VB).

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where and how
Quote:

Organizations such as the Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals made enormous strides in distancing themselves from the excesses of their own movement. Carefully articulating a set of doctrinal beliefs, the conservative evangelicals then did a curious thing: they distanced themselves from other Christians who were disorderly in conduct and doctrine.

Can this paragraph be documented, especially in light of John Piper's cosy relationship with Mark Driscoll and now Rick Warren and Mark Dever's praise of Acts 29 (Driscoll) and John MacArthur's Resolved Conference and...

The list goes on.

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For one

Well, for one, you have MacArthur's thorough criticism of Driscoll's puplit habits, especially re. Song of Solomon. http://beforefoundation.com/2009/04/macarthur-addresses-driscolls-handli...

Mac on Manhattan Declaration: http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4444

I'm sure you can find several CEs decrying the whole "Purpose Driven" phenomenon as well as seeker-church-growth-ism in general.

(I would add that the whole reason for T4G, GC, ACE etc. was to orchestrate a return to clarity about the gospel within an evangelicalism that has lost sight of it. I think you'll find rhetoric to that affect in their founding/promotional writing.)

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The virtue of consistency

Don, I think it's an interesting question to watch--and I think it should be watched. [Another SI frequent reader sent me an email with the same question]

My goal in writing those paragraphs was to show that evangelicals struggle with the same kinds of issues that befuddle fundamentalists. Can we define and articulate our own position? Can we implement it consistently and graciously?

For instance, in the Gospel Coalition's foundational documents, the framers said, "We have become deeply concerned about some movements within traditional evangelicalism that seem to be diminishing the church’s life and leading us away from our historic beliefs and practices." You can pretty easily find similar statements made by leaders of the other two organizations. So, yes, I think it is fair to evaluate these organizations on the basis of their stated position--and to commend that which is commendable.

Have they fulfilled their stated objectives consistently? It's a fair question.

Have we? [Another fair question, I think.]

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commend or cooperate?

Where any Christian takes an appropriate stand against worldliness and ungodliness is certainly worthy of note.

But the push in these commendations from some sources seems to be something along these lines: "See, the Conservative Evangelicals are becoming like us, no need for any more division." Some modify that by saying, "less division."

But really, what does it prove if someone is willing to speak against the errors of Driscoll, as MacArthur has, yet at the same time is quite willing to engage in similar errors like the Resolved Conference, as MacArthur does. Talk is cheap. Can you spell hypocrisy?

I am not attempting to make the claim that Fundamentalists are pure as the driven snow. We certainly have our own problems. But we shouldn't be naive and think that the Conservative Evangelicals are almost nearly becoming just like us in so many ways. If you read their own writings about Fundamentalists, you will see that they get where we are different and repudiate our position as unacceptable. They may be tightening up some of their standards in comparison to other evangelicals, but they are not becoming fundamentalists.

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Documented
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the push in these commendations from some sources seems to be something along these lines: "See, the Conservative Evangelicals are becoming like us, no need for any more division." Some modify that by saying, "less division."

Can this statement be documented? Smile

I'll concede that I think I've read the equivalent of "less division" in one place or another. Though what I've seen from Bauder, for example, is not "let's have less division" but rather "less division exists than many seem to suppose" (paraphrasing). That is, there is division that exists or doesn't exist objectively, then there is "division" in the form of what we choose to not do together. I don't think it can be denied that objective unity exists wherever you have people who are truly believe the gospel and are seriously fighting for it.

About Resolved conference... one of the many examples of evangelical lack of discernment about where we are as a culture. But fundamentalists have their own versions of cultural cluelessness. I don't think we have to embrace either the evangelical version or the fundamentalist version.

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Documentation, maybe...
Aaron Blumer wrote:
Quote:

the push in these commendations from some sources seems to be something along these lines: "See, the Conservative Evangelicals are becoming like us, no need for any more division." Some modify that by saying, "less division."

Can this statement be documented? Smile

I'll concede that I think I've read the equivalent of "less division" in one place or another. Though what I've seen from Bauder, for example, is not "let's have less division" but rather "less division exists than many seem to suppose" (paraphrasing).

Is that last a distinction without a difference?

For some documentation of the first point, see, I think, this and this (and the related posts). It isn't really hard to find people advocating these changes.

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But really, what does it
Quote:

But really, what does it prove if someone is willing to speak against the errors of Driscoll, as MacArthur has, yet at the same time is quite willing to engage in similar errors like the Resolved Conference, as MacArthur does. Talk is cheap.

Can you specifically explain why you think MacArthur's Resolved conference is similar to Driscoll's indulgence in sensual language in Song of Songs?

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cultural accommodation
Joel Shaffer wrote:
Quote:

But really, what does it prove if someone is willing to speak against the errors of Driscoll, as MacArthur has, yet at the same time is quite willing to engage in similar errors like the Resolved Conference, as MacArthur does. Talk is cheap.

Can you specifically explain why you think MacArthur's Resolved conference is similar to Driscoll's indulgence in sensual language in Song of Songs?

The music of the Resolved Conference represents the same basic philosophy with respect to sensual cultural expressions. One is more overt because it is language, the other is a little more subtle because it is music. But the cultural accommodation is essentially the same.

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Don, By assuming that the

Don,

By assuming that the music played at Resolved is sensual in nature, aren't you being influenced more by cultural fundamentalism that historic fundamentalism? Throughout history the church has always resisted cultural change when it came to music. When Gregorian chants were being sung in the middle ages, there were certain R.C. bishops and priests that wouldn't allow certain pitches (major and minor 3rds and 6ths, rather than perfect 4ths and 5ths) to be allowed because it was thought to be worldly and sensual in nature. Issac Watts was accused of being worldly by his contemporaries, and the list goes on and on. I guess I am curious as to what makes Resolved music sensual and worldly as apposed to the music that you have in your church?

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Music thread

Suggest starting a (nother) music thread rather than getting any further into it in this one. But "assuming" is not the right word, in any case. It asserts that the evaluation has not been made thoughtfully.

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Joel, if you can't see what makes the music of Resolved worldly, nothing can help you.

So let me point out some other errors of MacArthur et al that are to the point. To review the point I am bringing up, I am discussing Kevin Mongon's paragraph:

Quote:

Organizations such as the Gospel Coalition, Together for the Gospel, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals made enormous strides in distancing themselves from the excesses of their own movement. Carefully articulating a set of doctrinal beliefs, the conservative evangelicals then did a curious thing: they distanced themselves from other Christians who were disorderly in conduct and doctrine.

I am pointing out areas where the so-called conservative evangelicals are hypocritical in any "distancing" they are making with some who are disorderly in conduct and doctrine. They say conservative things in some cases, but either say or do things that are still disorderly in these two areas.

So let's consider MacArthur again... the author of Charismatic Chaos who regularly cooperates with Charismatics. Or Al Mohler, who signs the Manhattan Declaration (and who cooperates with Billy Graham). BTW, MacArthur will make noises about Billy Graham's compromises and refused to participate in Graham's last crusade in LA, but then goes and speaks at Graham's conference center, The Cove, and published at least one article in Decision magazine since that last LA conference.

As I said earlier, the list goes on and on.

And this same group, these conservatives, are going to make clear statements dismissing the fundamentalist position on these types of issues as "too narrow, too separatistic, too divisive" etc.

So my point is that their alleged distancing of themselves "from other Christians who were disorderly in conduct and doctrine" is a hypocritical sham.

Finally, please note that I am not conceding anything about the wickedness of the Resolved Conference. But since you appear unable to see the point, I am moving on to other points.

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Overstated
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So my point is that their alleged distancing of themselves "from other Christians who were disorderly in conduct and doctrine" is a hypocritical sham.

Don, you've got some good points here, but you're overstating. It's certainly debatable whether any substantive distancing has occurred. Calling it a "hypocritical sham" is unwarranted even if you believe no distancing has occurred at all. Hypocrisy comes into play when you are claiming a virtue you don't possess and you know you don't possess it.
If your point is that sufficient distancing or actual distancing has not occurred, it would be more persuasive to focus on that point and make a case for it.

I don't personally know how it's possible to characterize the gospel-centric (and usually doctrine-in-general centric) movements lead by these men as anything other than a distancing of themselves from the gospel-diluting/distorting evangelical mainstream, but if you believe these efforts are something else, help us see them as you see them (using overheated terms won't do that, though).

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fair enough

But there is a difference between "say" and "do". The conservatives talk a good game doctrinally, but they practice the same old game in reality. I think I have offered sufficient examples to establish the point. It is not that these things are done in a corner, there are plenty of other examples. It does appear that one has to keep repeating them because the attention span of conservative evangelical fans is exceedingly short.

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Exactly
Don Johnson wrote:

Joel, if you can't see what makes the music of Resolved worldly, nothing can help you.

Tim Jordan wrote:

If we produce ‘biblical’ reasons for cultural fundamentalism, they [the young Fundamentalists] know you are lying,” Jordan said. “And why do they know you are lying? It’s because you are!

Don,

I think this is exactly the type of statement that has frustrated many Christians in fundamentalist churches. I have searched for Biblical reasons to support this type of conclusion, but I can't find them. First, it is certainly a patent untruth that nothing can help us. If the music of Resolved is directly contradictory to the gospel (a definition I am substituting for "worldly") - then I want to know. But I want the reasoning to be based on the gospel rather than cultural fundamentalism. And if indeed it is contradictory to the gospel, than the gospel CAN help us! Second, I think our discussion of music has often been centered on what is acceptable to God. Please read me carefully here, but I don't that is the correct goal. Radical alert: I believe that all of our music is completely unacceptable for worship of an infinitely holy God. So the answer is not to search for what is good enough to merit God's favor. Indeed, the only reason we can worship God with any music is because we, and our music when pursued for God's glory, have been clothed in Christ's righteousness. We have to directly connect our understanding of worship to what the gospel says about our state before Christ and what God has done for us in making dead hearts alive by uniting them to Christ.

I'm utterly amazed at how radically Christ-centered /everything/ is at a conference like Next (thisisnext.org) and similarly Resolved. Having actually been to Next, I've been blown away by how much everything is directly connected to the importance of the gospel. These people are seeking to have the good news of Jesus Christ affect absolutely everything they do. Especially their music. So, to say that they are pursuing worldliness - a direct contradiction to the gospel - is a hard connection to make. If true, it means that while they intentionally pursue Jesus Christ they are ignoring the work of the Spirit in their lives that convicts them on their sin.

So, I beg you to detail for us the "wickedness of the Resolved Conference". If it contradicts the gospel, I desperately want to know so it can inform my faith and practice. But I will not accept cultural fundamentalism's preferences as gospel informed reasons.

I, for one, am so excited to see that people like Tim Jordan are recognizing that the gospel has to be our primary emphasis, not preferential concerns. If we truly get the gospel right and give scripture full say in lives, everything else cannot help but fall into place as pursue our savior recognizing that even our best attempts at pleasing him are radically sinful unless they are clothed in Christ's righteousness.

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Cultural fundamentalism

When Jordan says "cultural fundamentalism" in a negative sense, I do not believe he means "all efforts to apply Scripture to cultural choices." Let's be clear about that. There is absolutely no sphere of life that is exempted from the Lordship of Christ. So looking at some of these events and the "cultural trappings" they accept and trying to apply biblical principles to them is an obligation we all have.

Just want to be clear what our choices are here: it's not like on one hand we have "cultural fundamentalism" and on the other we have "anything goes as long as its 'cultural.'" The former is the error of much of fundamentalism. The latter is the error of most of evangelicalism. By "cultural fundamentalism," Jordan (and several others I've heard use the term) is referring to the practice of taking a particular set of applications (or just opinions, for the many who never bothered to think them through) and making them them (a) equal in status to Holy Writ itself and (b) the defining essence of fundamentalism.

The cure for this is not to look at the evangelical landscape and say "none of this cultural stuff matters"!

But we do need to acknowledge that these areas are difficult. It's a bit like a doctor attempting to do exploratory surgery on himself. It's really tough to think clearly about what you have absorbed and is part of your every day life to the point that you don't even notice it. And it's hard to do that with features of "normal American life" that everybody takes for granted. But we're called to do it.

And the fact that many of these lines are very, very hard to draw doesn't negate the fact that some of them are actually obvious to anyone who is giving them any submissive (to Christ) reflection at all (including at least a little digging into history).

In the case of Resolved, as an example, I don't doubt in the least that they are putting a great deal of energy into focusing everything on the gospel... everything verbal. I seriously doubt they have given much thought to what musical forms (and other cultural elements... like how stuff looks) mean. I wouldn't go all the places Bauder goes w/that, but he's wright that in a culture, what we wear, how we talk, what we paint, what we create musically, what we view for entertainment, etc., all has meaning. There's meaning on the individual level ("what does it mean to me?") but also on a larger, more objective level. Why has one sound replaced another and one form of dress replaced another, etc.? What sort of thinking was behind it? In the years that have passed since the transition (from one form to another, whether music, fashion, speech patterns, etc), has the connection w/an underlying set of beliefs and principles eroded? Is it gone entirely?
Culture is a moving target, but you can look at how features of it have moved and get an idea of their trajectory and form some reasonable guesses about what it "means" in the present.
And some of those "guesses" are no brainers.

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Yes...

To be clear, I'm not attempting to say that none of this cultural stuff matters. Rather I'm saying that our discussion of what we do with culture has to be informed - actually has to springing from our understanding of the gospel rather than cultural preferences. When one comes to the conclusion that if someone else doesn't see the worldliness in a certain activity there is no hope for him, then we need a better understanding of how the gospel changes our lives constantly as we pursue Christ and God pursues us.

I also believe there is a big difference between some of the stuff Driscoll has done compared to the music at Resolved. Scripture clearly marks sensuality as contrary to the gospel's work in our lives. However, the reason this discussion has been had so many time is that scripture does not clearly mark styles of music as contrary to the gospel. I'm not suggesting that it does not at all inform our musical choices. Rather, I'm saying that we have to be extremely careful to not elevate the exact applications that our Lord leads us to in our lives as being equivalent to scriptural authority for another. Instead we have to encourage those others to examine how the scripture affects their own choices. But in areas where scripture doesn't draw immediate fine lines, then we must recognize the evidences of grace in another's life even as they come to different conclusions than our own.

Also, though I'm not as familiar with the people at Resolved, I do believe that from reading and listening to people like Kauflin who organize the music at conferences like Next, I do believe they have given much thought to their practice. And they believe that it is not contrary to the gospel. And if it is true that they have intentionally thought about this and made these choices, then if we say that their practice is wrong - we have two options: to say that they knowingly sinned or that the Spirit has led them contradictory to scripture. Neither is any way an attractive option!

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Good article
KevinM wrote:

The key, for Davey, is a return to expository preaching and doctrinal clarity, the sort of pulpit ministry that was consistently modeled during the recent GARBC Conference

Good article Kevin!
A few reflections --

What I am for:
- The above statement (talk about a "Duhhh!!!" moment Shock)
- Greater cooperation between the GARBC, other IFB groups and other conservatives who never had a reason to be separate to begin with, other than for "political expedience"
- The GARBC having an increased influence on other IFB groups and other conservatives (Acts 18:26)

What I am against:
- Threads like this turning into a discussion of the pros and cons of John MacArthur Angry Same old stuff...brings back bad memories... Crying

What I am wondering:
- Where is organ music a strong component of IFB churches? Not in many, in my neck of the woods anyway. When I think of the hard-line IFBdom, a "tinny piano" plays in my head Laughing out loud

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Scharf's organ

Hey Paul--

I laughed when I read "tinny piano." But with your Lutheran genes, I'm guessing you still have a weakness for organ preludes!

About "cultural fundamentalism" as it was described by the speakers at the GARBC conference: I think they used the term in reference to the set of cultural values that grew to "mean" fundamentalism. Drs. Jordan and Davey mentioned things like dress standards, music standards, Bible translations, smoking/drinking/movie attendance/mixed swimming, and even loyalty to particular schools and institutions. I don't think we should interpret their comments as as an invitation to lawless living or an indication that they are soft on the subject of personal holiness. Rather, they seemed to refer to "cultural fundamentalism" as a set of cultural taboos that came to replace an authentic definition of historic fundamentalism.

In particular, I'd love to unpack Dr. Davey's brain a bit more about the way he has organized his church around grace principles that are taught through a program of Christian education and expository preaching. I think he has more to say on this subject, and it would be interesting to hear a bit more about it.

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How Grace plays out in a local church

Kevin,

Pastor Daniel just finished a series last week here at Colonial through the book of Titus and the whole series is based on "How to practice the Grace philosophy in the local church." As a church member it was a HUGE blessing and one must understand that by taking the stance that these "cultural issues" are what many at Colonial call grace issues, does not mean we live a hedonistic life that God's grace may abound as Paul condemns in Romans. Pastor Daniel consistently proclaims that grace has edges and those edges are founded in Christ and in the Text of scripture not our opinions or what another person believes is right or wrong. This sermon series is available @ cbvb.org and click on the sermons link, it is a 22-part series on the grace church, highly encourage all to check them out. In the educational setting, there really isnt a large difference between how the educational setting and the church setting take place because they are practiced much the same, as is evident in Pastor Daniel's concluding remarks about seminary students in his last message on Titus. Hope this is helpful and thanks for the article!

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It's not just the young fundamentalists

I just spent some time with a wonderful couple in their 70's who have been in fundamentalism for years. They are attending a church where some of the music isn't to their personal taste, but they were genuinely thrilled to hear Christ exalted and to learn that their cause for rejoicing was their standing in Him and not "wearing a suit and tie, no pants on women, the right Bible version, no hand held microphones, and listening to "acceptable" music. After years of hearing popular music condemned on the basis of Exodus 32:17, of women's slacks being condemned by Deuteronomy 22:5, of men's hair on their ears being sinful according to I Corinthians 11:14, and other miscellaneous matters condemned by I Thessalonians 5:22 and of having these standards treated as fundamentals they now feel free.

Cultural fundamentalism would probably exclude George Washington, the Pilgrims, and Charles Spurgeon.

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Ron Bean wrote: Cultural
Ron Bean wrote:

Cultural fundamentalism would probably exclude George Washington, the Pilgrims, and Charles Spurgeon.

If the names Thomas Jefferson and John MacArthur happened to be mentioned in your average IFB church on this July 4th Sunday, which one do you suppose would be mentioned positively and which one negatively?

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Don Johnson wrote: Joel, if
Don Johnson wrote:

Joel, if you can't see what makes the music of Resolved worldly, nothing can help you.

Don,

You have applied the terms "worldly" and "sensual" to the music of the Resolved conference. I am curious as to how you define these terms Biblically?

I ask because I happen to believe that the cultural fundamentalism mentioned above is characterized by a failure to define these terms in a Biblical way.

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definitions

worldly: of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life, etc.; earthly; mundane.

[worldly. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worldly (accessed: July 04, 2010).]

sensual: pertaining to, inclined to, or preoccupied with the gratification of the senses or appetites; carnal; fleshly.

[sensual. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sensual (accessed: July 04, 2010).]

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Jefferson ... and worldly
Greg Long wrote:

If the names Thomas Jefferson and John MacArthur happened to be mentioned in your average IFB church on this July 4th Sunday, which one do you suppose would be mentioned positively and which one negatively?

Laughing out loud
I didn't mention Mac, but I did mention Jefferson.... negatively.

About definitions, the problem w/the popular use--and pulpit use--of "worldly" is that is that it tends to not line up well with the biblical concept.

I'm kind of touting my own writing alot today, it seems, but if you're interested in a study from my POV, see http://sharperiron.org/2006/09/12/what-does-worldly-look-like-part-3 (Parts 1 and 2 are linked in Part 3). If nothing else, that series might help show the complexity of the Bible's use of the word "world" and why we cannot usually use it accurately as a synonym for "society," or "culture," or "everybody who is not us."

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on to worldliness then

Aaron, in the last paragraph of your article cited above, you conclude:

Aaron Blumer wrote:

When speaking of what is merely material and merely human, we should emphasize its temporary, fleeting nature. When we speak of the evil world we are called to resist, we should emphasize the attitudes and actions of lust, pride, dishonesty, contention, anger, malice, and self-indulgence that Scripture emphasizes. Since this diabolical world is spiritual and ideological in nature, we carry it with us everywhere we go; and even in a church sanctuary, wearing a choir robe and singing Handel, worldliness may raise its ugly head.

I am currently teaching on Godliness and Worldliness in our ministry also (to blow my horn, too). I am approaching it from a different direction, not trying to define what the world is, but what 'worldly' is. The key verses for this study are Titus 2.11-12 and 1 Jn 2.15-17, along with Col 3, on setting your affections on things above.

I agree with your last sentence, worldliness will follow us into the choir loft or anywhere we go. But I think there is a distinction between worldliness and "lust, pride, dishonesty, contention, anger, malice and self-indulgence". These are the works of the flesh which are always condemned and generally fairly easy to discern. Sin at its most base, if you will. Worldliness is instead a love for and inordinate focus on the fleeting things of this world as if they are the things of supreme value. This is much less easy to discern and it may well be a love for things that in themselves are not evil, or at worst might be called 'neutral'.

In this discussion, talking about music, there is a sense that all music can be considered worldly - it is subject to fleeting attention, always changing, and so on. An inordinate amount of attention can be given to it as if it can give spiritual satisfaction, as if it is a god. That would be worldliness. And music can also be fleshly, sensual, stirring up the senses and appealing to baser lusts of human nature. This, I think, can be seen a little more clearly than worldliness in music is seen. Both components can be there in tripping up the believer and distracting him from a deeply spiritual walk with God.

And to get back on track with the thread, I think both elements are part of the music at the Resolved Conference which make me think MacArthur's protestations of conservativism ring hollow.

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Don, In Col. 3, when you set

Don,

In Col. 3, when you set your affections on things above, not on things of earth, that means putting to death what belongs to your earthly nature, which verses 5-8 state as, sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry............but now you must rid your selves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from you lips....

That is what the works of the flesh and worldiness is! Although I'd agree with you that idolatry is also worldiness, which you mention that worldliness is also "an inordinate amount of attention can be given to it as if it can give spiritual satisfaction, as if it is a god."

Quote:

And music can also be fleshly, sensual, stirring up the senses and appealing to baser lusts of human nature.

I'd agree with you on that point as well, although I believe we have radically different views what constitutes music that is fleshly and sensual. By the way, I do not see music as a culturally neutral and it can have that type of power. Even aspects of classical music can be sensual. For example Igor Stravinsky's Rite of Spring caused a riot in Paris when it was played in 1913, where Stravinsky used constant dissonance and irregular rhythms throughout the composition. He was trying to convey a pagan ritual where a young girl dances herself to death.

However, why do you broadbrush the music of Resolved in this category (stirring up the senses and appealing to baser lusts of human nature) I went online and listened to a portion of every song that they have on their CDs and they were done decently and in order without any sensuality. They just happened to utilize electric guitars and drums. I suspect that your personal preferences have much more influence on you than you'd like to admit. And you probably would believe that my personal preferences have much more influence on me than I'd like to admit.

That is why when evaluating aspects of culture such as music, I evaluate it through the Biblical grid of creation,fall, redemption, and final judgment/consummation. Maybe I am wrong, but sometimes fundamentalists are guilty of viewing aspects of culture only through the lens of depravity and selectively through the final judgment. Therefore, they automatically assume aspects of culture as evil without properly evaluating it. On the other hand, it seems as if many evangelicals chase after aspects of culture because they focus on creation and redemption, without giving proper discernment of the depravity that has infected it.

Just to let you know my personal background, I played keyboards in a Christian Rock band from 1997-2004 and left completely disallusioned. Not because I felt that music was somehow inherently sensual or fleshly, but what you mentioned earlier: the Idolatry that is associated with it. Even though our lyrics were very Christ-centered and Great commission-centered (we songs that praised God for his atonement and as well as songs that encouraged people towards missions, and etc...), but that afterwords, much of the audience that heard us was more about how to start a band or record a CD, or that our drummer was cute, rather than about being affectionate towards Jesus. The only time I felt we were doing anything redemptive was when we were leading them into worship, where they participated with us.

By the way, language such as "those that are blind cannot see" or "if you can't see what makes the music of Resolved worldly, nothing can help you" does not further a redemptive conversation on this subject.

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the real subject of this conversation isn't music

The real subject is the claim that

Quote:

Carefully articulating a set of doctrinal beliefs, the conservative evangelicals then did a curious thing: they distanced themselves from other Christians who were disorderly in conduct and doctrine.

What I am arguing is this claim is not true. Protest has been raised because I included MacArthur in my list of examples. Fine. Let's take him off the list.

But not a peep has been heard in response to my arguments using the other examples. Why is that?

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A thought about "the world".

We all know that money is not the root of all evil, but that the "love" of money is. When we look at a phrase like "love not the world", could it be that "the world" is not what we should avoid but, instead we should avoid "loving" the world.

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it's not a mystery
Ron Bean wrote:

We all know that money is not the root of all evil, but that the "love" of money is. When we look at a phrase like "love not the world", could it be that "the world" is not what we should avoid but, instead we should avoid "loving" the world.

What does the passage say? Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. Then it proceeds to define the things that are in the world. And it tells us why we aren't to place our love there.

But this is still a distraction and a sidebar to the main issue, it really has nothing to do with Kevin's article.

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The "things"

The passage does define the things of the world and all of them are within man; the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. There is no mention of culture. But you are right, this may be outside the matter of the OP.

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Don Johnson wrote:worldly:
Don Johnson wrote:

worldly: of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life, etc.; earthly; mundane.

[worldly. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worldly (accessed: July 04, 2010).]

sensual: pertaining to, inclined to, or preoccupied with the gratification of the senses or appetites; carnal; fleshly.

[sensual. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sensual (accessed: July 04, 2010).]

My point exactly. We need to define these Biblically. A discussion on Worldliness is already started, and you yourself have posted ably on the topic, so I know you get this idea.
But I might point out that worldliness in the Scriptures cannot mean simply "like the world." If so, we're certainly uneven in our application of anti-worldliness strictures, and people like the Amish are far more righteous than we.

As for "sensual", your dictionary lists "fleshly" or "carnal" as a synonym. The study of the Biblical material on these two words is complex. I believe we also over-simplify this issue.
I read recently of a religious cult where people waited as long as possible for all physical things, including, amusingly, to use the restroom, because they didn't want to pamper their flesh. As with the Amish comment above, taking our position to the most extreme conclusion can show us that our definition is inadequate. "Sensual", "carnal", and "fleshly" cannot, in Biblical usage, exclusively and only mean "inclined to gratification of the senses or appetites". It doesn't fit all the texts well. Taking it that way could even lead toward a gnostic-like split between material and spiritual categories.

BTW, my only concern is how we apply these terms to a particular art form or expression of it. I wouldn't waste a line of text to defend MacArthur or Resolved. It's not that I'm against him or his conferences. I just see no value in loyalty to a religious leader other than Jesus Christ.

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Loyal opposition
Quote:

I wouldn't waste a line of text to defend MacArthur or Resolved.

I would.
We don't have to be disloyal to brothers in Christ in order to be loyal to Christ. But pointing out what's not good isn't disloyal to Mac & co. (arguably, not pointing out would be) and pointing out what is good in their work isn't disloyal to Christ.
I think it was British statesman of old who coined the phrase "loyal opposition." Perhaps it would be one good way to describe our relationship w/the better non-fundamentalist evangelicals out there.

(There are problems with it, too, though, because of the political connotation and idea of parties fighting eachother... but the idea of being loyal to and opposing in some ways at the same time. I think that's useful.)

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Connection

Aaron, your 'loyal opposition' post reminded me of a conversation my dh and I were having about trust and agreement. I don't have to agree with someone in order to trust them, because trust is based on what one believes about another's integrity, not whether they hold the same opinions we do. Most people seem to believe that trust means checking in your brain at the door, and I don't see it that way at all.

I think that is why I don't feel it is a 'betrayal' of Fundamentalism or sound doctrine to consider what good and honest men have to say about their interpretations of Scripture, whether I agree with their interpretations or not. I can enjoy the sermons and writings of many a preacher/teacher, because what I am concerned about is their level of integrity more than what Bible version they are reading from or what school they went to. I can sort out the information for myself, and in doing so I have been challenged to defend what beliefs I hold sacred, gained some valuable perspective, and exercised my discernment. What's not to love about that?

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Response to Don

Don,

You and I have already done this before, so I will keep this short. Your response pretty much demonstrates the type of dangerous and unhealthy "cultural fundamentalism" that Tim and Dan were talking about (IMO). Your approach assumes that a variety of sub-movement views concerning "levels of separation," "approach to music," should be clearly "this" or "that." A growing majority of those who are still connected to a self-identified "fundamentalism" are wanting to get away from your approach because they're simply not convinced that the Scriptures teach your view. You seem to be confused as to why this is. Don, I'm trying to help you here. For most of us, unless God's Word is objectively being violated in worship, preaching, fellowship and such then to quote the Scriptures....."All things are lawful." Don, the Scriptures are clear that maligning your brothers...."are not lawful!" I personally believe you violate the Scriptures towards our evangelical brothers when you just make large statements that evangelicals don't care about responding to sin or foolishness in ministry. You have to be kidding me! I was ill when I read some of your statements. More importantly you grieve the Holy Spirit of God with these kinds of statements you make. None of these evangelicals are putting feet to their faith? Wow! Frankly, you're not in a place to make that kind of a statement. Based on what you've said in this and other forums, I believe you've isolated yourself enough not only from other fundamental brothers (think really smaller part of the body of Christ) but also from the larger evangelical church (think larger than group 1). Therefore with your ecclesiastical approach to ministry and limited "line of sight" with these guys.....there's just no way you can know what they're doing or not doing. You are going beyond the clarity of the Scriptures my brother. When you make the friends of God, the enemies of brethren, you are truly in a dangerous place.

Straight Ahead!

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Joel Tetreau wrote: You seem
Joel Tetreau wrote:

You seem to be confused as to why this is. Don, I'm trying to help you here. For most of us, unless God's Word is objectively being violated in worship, preaching, fellowship and such then to quote the Scriptures....."All things are lawful."

I don't think I'm confused, Joel, but let me give a bit of context: But all things are not expedient. Are we even now?

Joel Tetreau wrote:

Don, the Scriptures are clear that maligning your brothers...."are not lawful!" I personally believe you violate the Scriptures towards our evangelical brothers when you just make large statements that evangelicals don't care about responding to sin or foolishness in ministry. You have to be kidding me! I was ill when I read some of your statements. More importantly you grieve the Holy Spirit of God with these kinds of statements you make. None of these evangelicals are putting feet to their faith? Wow! Frankly, you're not in a place to make that kind of a statement. Based on what you've said in this and other forums, I believe you've isolated yourself enough not only from other fundamental brothers (think really smaller part of the body of Christ) but also from the larger evangelical church (think larger than group 1). Therefore with your ecclesiastical approach to ministry and limited "line of sight" with these guys.....there's just no way you can know what they're doing or not doing. You are going beyond the clarity of the Scriptures my brother. When you make the friends of God, the enemies of brethren, you are truly in a dangerous place.

Hmm... where did I actually say these things? Why are you making this personal? Why are not dealing with the statements I actually made?

I think I am going to bow out of this thread after one more comment on worldliness. I'll ask the moderators (other than Joel) to evaluate the appropriateness of Joel's post. I think he is going a little over the top.

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Mike Durning wrote: Don
Mike Durning wrote:
Don Johnson wrote:

worldly: of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven, spiritual life, etc.; earthly; mundane.

[worldly. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worldly (accessed: July 04, 2010).]

sensual: pertaining to, inclined to, or preoccupied with the gratification of the senses or appetites; carnal; fleshly.

[sensual. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged. Random House, Inc. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sensual (accessed: July 04, 2010).]

My point exactly. We need to define these Biblically. A discussion on Worldliness is already started, and you yourself have posted ably on the topic, so I know you get this idea.

Actually, I think the definitions here are exactly what the Bible means, especially the term worldly, which only occurs twice in the NT. There are a couple of other terms some versions translate as worldly, but these uses likewise don't distort the meaning.

Mike Durning wrote:

But I might point out that worldliness in the Scriptures cannot mean simply "like the world." If so, we're certainly uneven in our application of anti-worldliness strictures, and people like the Amish are far more righteous than we.

But now you are talking about a different term. Worldliness is not the same s worldly. And it actually isn't a biblical term at all.

I have been writing recently on this topic at my own site, if you go there, you can find them under the category 'worldliness' on the Archives page. I am a little behind on writing about it, I have been teaching this topic in our church, but I have too many irons in the fire and haven't had time to keep up with writing articles.

As I noted in my earlier post, I am going to bow out of this thread. I think that I have said all I want to say about the original post and it appears that emotions are getting stirred up. So I think it best to just leave it alone for now. I wouldn't mind talking more about worldliness generally, if there is a current discussion of it going on here, I'd be willing to participate as I can. Any interested parties could also interact with my posts at oxgoad.

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Worldliness

For a personal or small group study on worldliness, I would highly recommend the book Worldliness: Resisting the Seduction of a Fallen World, edited by C. J. Mahaney.

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Must read

That one's been nagging at me to be read for some time. It's not often that you have an evangelical writing seriously and negatively about worldliness. So it has to be worth reading for that perspective alone. But I take it from Greg's post that he also believes CJM gets it right.
I look forward to finding out for myself. Smile

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Worldliness book

I'll also recommend CJM on Worldliness. They gave it out at Shepherd's in 2009, and I thought it may have been the best treatment that I've read. Don will probably disagree with the chapter on music, but I can see and understand CJM's line of argumentation.

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Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

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If I remember correctly, Bob

If I remember correctly, Bob Kauflin wrote the chapter on music. The chapter seemed to be a smaller version of his book. Overall it was a good book. I tend to be more conservative on music like Don is. But I found the book very helpful.

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On Joel
Don J wrote:

I think he is going a little over the top.

Well, he's passionate, that's for sure.
I personally think there's a bit of hyperbole there.

Quote:

unless God's Word is objectively being violated in worship, preaching, fellowship and such then to quote the Scriptures

What does "objectively being violated" mean?

But more to the point, the judgment that evangelicals don't care about worldliness etc., is pretty square with my experience. I wouldn't say "all evangelicals," because in my view, fundamentalists are evangelicals. And I know lots of both fundies and non-fundies who don't care about worldliness... and both fundies and nonfundies who do care. But given what "evangelical" means, we're pretty safe saying the majority don't care a whole lot about holy living.

But Joel, there's nothing unloving or unchristian about pointing out error. Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

Where we get into trouble is when the mote and beam thing is going on, but Jesus did say that when you've gotten the beam out of your own eye, it is appropriate to go after the mote in your brother's eye. (Matt 7.5)

Maybe both Don and Joel have expressed their perspective in overly expansive terms.

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Joel Tetreau wrote:

Don,

You and I have already done this before, so I will keep this short. Your response pretty much demonstrates the type of dangerous and unhealthy "cultural fundamentalism" that Tim and Dan were talking about (IMO). Your approach assumes that a variety of sub-movement views concerning "levels of separation," "approach to music," should be clearly "this" or "that." A growing majority of those who are still connected to a self-identified "fundamentalism" are wanting to get away from your approach because they're simply not convinced that the Scriptures teach your view. You seem to be confused as to why this is. Don, I'm trying to help you here. For most of us, unless God's Word is objectively being violated in worship, preaching, fellowship and such then to quote the Scriptures....."All things are lawful." Don, the Scriptures are clear that maligning your brothers...."are not lawful!" I personally believe you violate the Scriptures towards our evangelical brothers when you just make large statements that evangelicals don't care about responding to sin or foolishness in ministry. You have to be kidding me! I was ill when I read some of your statements. More importantly you grieve the Holy Spirit of God with these kinds of statements you make. None of these evangelicals are putting feet to their faith? Wow! Frankly, you're not in a place to make that kind of a statement. Based on what you've said in this and other forums, I believe you've isolated yourself enough not only from other fundamental brothers (think really smaller part of the body of Christ) but also from the larger evangelical church (think larger than group 1). Therefore with your ecclesiastical approach to ministry and limited "line of sight" with these guys.....there's just no way you can know what they're doing or not doing. You are going beyond the clarity of the Scriptures my brother. When you make the friends of God, the enemies of brethren, you are truly in a dangerous place.

Straight Ahead!

jt

If I could echo every word of this post. . . thanks.

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Joel Tetreau wrote: Don, You
Joel Tetreau wrote:

Don,

You and I have already done this before, so I will keep this short. Your response pretty much demonstrates the type of dangerous and unhealthy "cultural fundamentalism" that Tim and Dan were talking about (IMO). Your approach assumes that a variety of sub-movement views concerning "levels of separation," "approach to music," should be clearly "this" or "that." A growing majority of those who are still connected to a self-identified "fundamentalism" are wanting to get away from your approach because they're simply not convinced that the Scriptures teach your view. You seem to be confused as to why this is. Don, I'm trying to help you here. For most of us, unless God's Word is objectively being violated in worship, preaching, fellowship and such then to quote the Scriptures....."All things are lawful." Don, the Scriptures are clear that maligning your brothers...."are not lawful!" I personally believe you violate the Scriptures towards our evangelical brothers when you just make large statements that evangelicals don't care about responding to sin or foolishness in ministry. You have to be kidding me! I was ill when I read some of your statements. More importantly you grieve the Holy Spirit of God with these kinds of statements you make. None of these evangelicals are putting feet to their faith? Wow! Frankly, you're not in a place to make that kind of a statement. Based on what you've said in this and other forums, I believe you've isolated yourself enough not only from other fundamental brothers (think really smaller part of the body of Christ) but also from the larger evangelical church (think larger than group 1). Therefore with your ecclesiastical approach to ministry and limited "line of sight" with these guys.....there's just no way you can know what they're doing or not doing. You are going beyond the clarity of the Scriptures my brother. When you make the friends of God, the enemies of brethren, you are truly in a dangerous place.

Straight Ahead!

jt

We need Joel to write a more detailed article based on these thoughts. I will purchase the new Lawn 6000 for Joel after he is finished Smile Good stuff! Needed stuff! Thanks brother!

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Run its course

Looks to me like this discussion has run its course as far as anything on-topic is concerned.
So just a closing thought or two and I think we'll close it.

I believe both Don and Joel have some good points. And the "personalness" of Joel's response to Don is well intended and not "wrong." But, at the same time, we don't really want to encourage that kind of personal focus on another poster in these discussions. It distracts from thoughtful interaction about principles and applications. The personal stuff is better in PMs or emails.
Where sensitive topics are involved, there's always a temptation to blur how we feel about the ideas with how we feel about the person posting them. Of course, the two are truly closely related, but the person delivering the ideas doesn't really have much bearing on whether they are true or not. Nor does going after the person prove his ideas untrue. So in a discussion (or debate), it's not very relevant.

And there's something a tad ironic about taking a brother to task for taking other brothers to task. Wink Criticism in all directions can and should be delivered thoughtfully and with the Spirit-fruit of gentleness. When it is, there is often great value in it (Gal 2.11, 1 Thess 5.14, Prov.27:6, 2 Tim. 2.24-25).