Federal Intervention in Higher Education

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Kevin T. Bauder
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The federal government is changing its policy toward higher education, and the changes could affect every Christian college and seminary in the nation. The net effect of these changes is a significant federal takeover of the educational process. The vehicle through which the changes are being pursued is accreditation, but non-accredited institutions are likely to feel the bite of federal regulation. In order to understand the changes, you have to understand how accreditation works.

Until now, accreditation has been essentially an activity of the private sector. Of course, anyone can establish an accrediting agency, and there are accreditation mills just as there are diploma mills. Consequently, it has been necessary to create an organization to accredit the accreditors.

That organization is the Council on Higher Education in America (CHEA). CHEA was established in the 1990s to fend off a federal takeover of accreditation at that time. It represents the attempt by American institutions of higher education to regulate themselves through a process of peer review. CHEA does, however, get its force from federal involvement. It is the only agency that the United States Department of Education recognizes to accredit the accreditors.

In other words, a school that wants to be accredited works with a regional or national accrediting agency. That agency in turn works with CHEA, and when a school gains accreditation it also becomes a member of CHEA. Consequently, CHEA is the conduit through which the Department of Education recognizes accredited schools. The Department of Education publishes an annual directory that is the Holy Grail of accreditation: if a school is listed there, its accreditation is recognized (in theory) by other institutions.

The cooperative relationship between accreditation and the Department of Education was authorized in the Higher Education Act of 1965, part of Lyndon Johnson’s “Great Society” reforms. The act must be reauthorized periodically, and reauthorization provides the federal government with an opportunity to review and influence the educational process. Reauthorization is generally a stormy time in the relationship between accreditation and the government.

Once the Higher Education Act has been reauthorized, the Department of Education drafts new rules and policies to implement whatever provisions have changed. The last reauthorization occurred in 2008, but its repercussions are only beginning to be felt as the new rules fall into place. The net result is a significant federal takeover of the educational process.

The takeover is driven by two concerns. The first is a public perception that American education is slipping in quality. The second concern is money. The feds pour billions of dollars into higher education, and the government is naturally eager to curtail the waste of federal funds. The federal answer to both problems is identical, namely, increased regulation.

The government now defines what a credit hour is. The government has begun to regulate transfer of credits among institutions. The government is also regulating the burgeoning field of distance education. Finally, the government has begun to regulate the monitoring of student enrollment.

The impact upon higher education is decidedly negative. Educational institutions are supposed to ask what is best for their students. They are now asking what will best please the feds. In order to comply with recent federal regulations, schools must confront a mountain of new paperwork. The byproduct of federal regulation has been—and will be—to drive up costs while distracting institutions from their focus upon education. In accreditation as in many other areas, federal involvement creates far more problems than it solves.

The largest problem, however, is simply the presence of federal intervention in an area that was previously private. In effect, the government is in the process of taking over a huge segment of American society. As this takeover progresses, it will be the federal government that determines who can teach and what will be taught at every college and seminary in America. The federal government will ultimately determine which institutions have the right to grant degrees and which will simply be shut down.

For Christian institutions, the implications of such a takeover are obvious. Christians have had to work doubly hard to gain a foothold in the private accreditation system. Once the feds are in control, accreditation is likely to become the wedge by which the government forces Christian colleges and seminaries to adopt policies that reflect prevailing notions on subjects like evolution and homosexuality. The potential for damage is both real and alarming.

The government is also going after unaccredited institutions. At the moment, the individual states recognize the right of colleges and seminaries to grant degrees. In many states (Minnesota is one of them), religious institutions are completely exempt from the state’s oversight in this area. The Department of Education, however, is using its new leverage to pressure the states to force all degree-granting institutions to gain accreditation. In other words, if the federal government has its way, no unaccredited schools will be allowed to grant degrees.

The hour may already be too late to thwart the federal takeover. The only way that it could be reversed is through a significant public reaction against the increased federal regulation, coupled with a change in those elected officials who want to use the accreditation process as a way of increasing the federal headlock on higher education.

In the meanwhile, Christians need to begin thinking about other models of teaching and learning. Up to now, we have adopted a model borrowed from the medieval universities. We have coupled our educational process with the granting of degrees at the bachelor’s, master’s, and doctor’s levels. That is just what we may not be able to do in the future.

If that happens, we may need to rethink the process of ministry preparation. Future pastors and missionaries do need to be taught, but they do not really need degrees. We might well ask, What will ministry preparation look like in a world in which we are no longer permitted to operate colleges and seminaries? Unless something can be done to reverse the federal juggernaut, that day is almost certain to come.

Wisdom
(Prov. viii, 22-31)
William Cowper (1731-1800)

Ere God had built the mountains,
Or raised the fruitful hills;
Before He filled the fountains
That feed the running rills;
In me from everlasting,
The wonderful I Am,
Found pleasures never wasting,
And Wisdom is my name.

When, like a tent to dwell in,
He spread the skies abroad,
And swathed about the swelling
Of Ocean’s mighty flood;
He wrought by weight and measure,
And I was with Him then:
Myself the Father’s pleasure,
And mine, the sons of men.

Thus Wisdom’s words discover
Thy glory and Thy grace,
Thou everlasting Lover
Of our unworthy race!
Thy gracious eye surveyed us
Ere stars were seen above;
In wisdom Thou hast made us,
And died for us in love.

And couldst Thou be delighted
With creatures such as we,
Who, when we saw Thee, slighted,
And nailed Thee to a tree?
Unfathomable wonder,
And mystery divine!
The voice that speaks in thunder,
Says, “Sinner, I am thine!”


This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, former president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN) and now serves as Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Central. Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.

Joel Tetreau
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Mentorship vs. Golf

Kevin,

Great article. Part of the answer I think would have to be keeping our brothers who are called to ministry in our own congregations and mentoring them into pastoral ministry/leadership. No offense at the Colleges and Semiaries - from a pure point of theory, that may be a better answer. The reality is, most of us in the pastorate are really not up to the demand that would place on us. To many of us are not as sharp as we ought to be in the languages, theology, homilitics, responsible counseling, mentoring, etc.....Also, our congregations would have to give up a certain amount of "time and energy" so that our leaders can reproduce more leaders. Again....that's a normal application from what the NT teaches.

Looks like I'll never be able to pick up that game of golf....rats!

Doesn't this also mean that we would have a whole segment of seminary and college prof's that will be out of work? Wow - You "teaching guys" would have to teach "unofficially" through other means. In some cases you would have to re-enter congregational ministry-life. That might be hard. Maybe we could get these X Fundamental Seminary Prof's into the secular Universities - teaching Grad and Post Grad Religion courses! We could infiltrate! I think that was tried before, right?

Perhaps we would have to start institutions in other countries where there was more freedom? (That's a sad statement for a Christian American born on July 4th to make!) Didn't the Puritans do this - English men studying in Holland?

Straight Ahead!

jt

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This sad day is coming!

Dr. Bauder offers keen insight here into what is pretty obviously coming down the road at our colleges and seminaries.
Unfortunately, it is going to be difficult for us to argue in that day that the whole blasted system is unconstitutional (or, at least, extra-Constitutional) because Christian schools have been willing participants in the system for decades -- as long as it meant that federally-guaranteed student loans, Pell grants and other forms of revenue were heading in their direction (often subsidizing the participation of students who really had no business in college in the first place).
A visionary response -- such as has been offered by Hillsdale College -- was required decades ago. This would have led to an entirely different model of Christian higher education that would have had implications for everything from education to separation.
Easier said than done, I know. Also, in the grand scheme of things it may not have made a bit of difference in offsetting the perils Dr. Bauder is writing about. But it would have made us far less vulnerable.
Mind you, I am not trying to place blame on any particular school or administrator. I love Christian higher education, and am very much saddened that many will be hurt in the days ahead.
However, there is also an opportunity here, as Joel describes. To expand on something I once heard, perhaps the church age will end in a fashion similar to the way it began: with real Christians meeting in small house churches and real Apostolic teaching based in those very churches and similar programs -- not gigantic, multi-bajillion dollar colleges and universities (cf. Acts 19:9, 10).

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2 Timothy 2 and Ephesians 4

These are some of the passages that came to mind when I read the question posited by Dr. Bauder. Like Joel said, mentoring inside the context of the local church is the answer. I have been involved in teaching in a Bible college on the mission field, and would love teaching in a Bible college or institute here at home. However, I fully support any well thought out program that returns the ministry of edification and preparation back to the local church. It's interesting to me that just yesterday my pastor preached on Edification of the Saints in his present series "A Fresh (that is, Biblical) Vision of the Church."
Thanks Dr. Bauder for the heads up.

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Rob Fall
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This possibility was one of the arguments against seeking accreditation.

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Paul J. Scharf
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Accreditation
Rob Fall wrote:

This possibility was one of the arguments against seeking accreditation.

I know that this argument was made, but was it correct?

Is accreditation the problem, or simply the vehicle that will be used to institute persecution -- against both accredited and unaccredited schools, as Dr. Bauder notes?

In other words, it seems to me that Christian schools sought accreditation for exactly the wrong reason, i.e., to be able to receive all the federal goodies. The latter was the real problem, not accreditation. Ironically, it was accreditation that made us wince, not the reception of government funds. We strained at a gnat and swallowed a camel.

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Louise Dan
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This totally misses the

This totally misses the point. And it's a theological point. Fundamentalism has long been more concerned of the encroaching sin from without than the one within. Accreditation is an issue because many religious institutions haven't held themselves accountable. Thumbing your nose at accreditation has become a chimera distracting from substandard or ingrown education. BJU prides themselves on the ingrown nature of their Bible faculty. But that results in what you get when you marry your cousin generation after generation. It's ridiculous that it takes a secular institution to make sure a Christian one actually offers the kind of education it says it does. But that's the fault of fundamentalists, not the government. Accreditation is also valuable because it affirms that a school's president and faculty have real degrees, not the honorary ones that characterize a number of unaccredited fundamentalist institutions. I can't tell you how disturbed I was after the fact to realize how many of the chapel speakers, deans, and professors at BJU were using titles of doctor that had no merit in terms of education in their field.

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Louise Dan, What does this

Louise Dan, What does this have to do with BJU? Kevin Bauder is not connected with them and has no education or degrees from there.

While many schools may be giving a substandard education, BJU isn't typically considered to be one of them, I don't think. The comparison of the Bible faculty with marrying cousins seems a bit overboard though. You should probably rethink that one, or give some evidence as to how it is true or manifested. The theology at BJU is generally considered orthodox by most so far as I know.

Can you name any professors or deans at BJU using the title of doctor that have no merit in terms of education in their field? (Chapel speakers are on a totally different plane.)

Rob Fall
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During the period 1935-1995,

During the period 1935-1995, just where was BJU supposed to get their faculty trained? The major seminaries (Princeton, Harvard, Eastern Baptist, University of Chicago, Baylor, et al.) in the period were flooded with modernism.

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Rachel L.
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Quote: What does this have to
Quote:

What does this have to do with BJU?

BJU is accredited by the same agency as CBTS. Both are nationally accredited. The DoE has increased its involvement in this issue BECAUSE OF national accreditation associations. Regional accreditation is the gold-standard in higher education. National accreditation is where you find the University of Phoenix, Kaplan, et al. Christian institutions would have been better served to practice separation from these diploma mills by seeking regional accreditation or by remaining unaccredited.

But this also speaks to Louise's post: BJU (and many other Christian schools) would not qualify for regional accreditation because so many of the faculty there either do not have terminal degrees, or do not have terminal degrees in the field in which they teach.

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How this would proceed and be

How this would proceed and be accepted is not clear at this time. There are constitutional and states rights issues to be dealt with. I went through part of my education paying for it with the GI Bill. It was considered a payment to the veteran not the school. However, it has now become a benefit that may put federal regulations on the school attended.

Considering the course of this country morally and spiritually the separating out of Christian training from the traditional academic structure may not be such a bad thing. Schools associated with churches may have to offer certificates instead of degrees but if the Christian churches and community came to understand what they represent this may be a good thing. A certificate of "Divinity foundation" would be OK.

We have become overly conscience of the degree concept. When the Demon (D.Min) degree started to be offered in the 1970s we entered into a new level of professionalism emphasis and degree awareness that only enforced the advancing of the professional clergy staff rule concepts in churches. The reality is that the D.Min. is a specified work done degree but not a true knowledge gained degree. A person in pastoral ministry who studies diligently should not have the time for D.Min. pursuit for just pastoral competence.

Many KJVO sect and Fundamentalist pastors put doctor in front of their name based on honorary doctorates from friends or some sub standard bible college. The ignored scandal of Christian ministry is the clergy separation claimed by the Pastoral and staff positions and the numerous non standard and phony DR. Degrees being touted by those in ministry. Perhaps the change in status of Christian training institutions may be a very good thing. None could grant degrees whether earned or honorary. Studies and competence could be acknowledged by non academic certificates. There would still be the need of institutional training with specialists in history, languages, and theology. We could get rid of most all practical courses and let that be accomplished by a year of internship. Perhaps we could end up with less preachers and more teachers. For the FB preachers instead of Dr. Zampoosie it could be CHPP Zampoosie (Certificate of honorary Pastoral Prestige).

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Insularity

Rachel hits on a good point when she states:

Quote:

But this also speaks to Louise's post: BJU (and many other Christian schools) would not qualify for regional accreditation because so many of the faculty there either do not have terminal degrees, or do not have terminal degrees in the field in which they teach.

One of these days, I'd really like to know just how many BJU faculty - just the teaching faculty - got their degrees from BJU and not elsewhere. I think that could be an interesting study. Of course, it's not just BJU, too.

I think that I'll disagree slightly with Rob Fall, though, in that I think there are other good schools that existed pre-1995 - Dallas Theological Seminary, Reformed Theol. Semin, and Westminister (Philly) I think are all good schools - if you can get past other things. I don't know for sure, but I think I would be able to consider a Pastoral Candidate from any of those schools.

[/BJU discussion]

I was talking with a young lady yesterday, and I wondered aloud - what is the proper, Biblical method for training pastors? I mean, if Bauder is right and there are no Seminaries or Bible Colleges (because they've all be shut down by the Dept. of Ed for non-compliance or whatever in the future), then what should we do? And more importantly - why did we get away from that Scriptural model in the first place?

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Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
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Glad I'm Not Alone

I believe that the college / seminary role was / is off-base. It doesn't mean that they could not do some good. It just means that they deviated from the local church focus and the definition of the local church (does the local church have arms that are not the church but somehow are?). Such well-meaning institutions have undermined the local church's assignment, and weakened it in the long run, rather than helping it.

The local church has become something to hold the parachurch organizations up, rather than the other way around. It is no longer capable or expected to train leaders, which I believe is a tragedy. (The church can, but it cannot / need not do so by mimicking the college / seminary format - we have attempted to do so all along, and have been cold-shouldered by a local Bible college.)

I do not welcome anything that weakens the church. However, I am very much for the church returning to its central role, and the artificial education standards (artificial standards). The higher institutions have become the steering mechanism for local churches and associations, rather than an enabling service to them.

As many parachurch institutions, especially those focused on education, have bowed to government regulation (usually to get indirect gov't funding via grants, scholarships, and loans to students), they have deviated from the cause (and missed the point). It was a matter of time before this happened.

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Jay C. wrote: Rachel hits on
Jay C. wrote:

Rachel hits on a good point when she states:

Quote:

But this also speaks to Louise's post: BJU (and many other Christian schools) would not qualify for regional accreditation because so many of the faculty there either do not have terminal degrees, or do not have terminal degrees in the field in which they teach.

One of these days, I'd really like to know just how many BJU faculty - just the teaching faculty - got their degrees from BJU and not elsewhere. I think that could be an interesting study. Of course, it's not just BJU, too.

I think that I'll disagree slightly with Rob Fall, though, in that I think there are other good schools that existed pre-1995 - Dallas Theological Seminary, Reformed Theol. Semin, and Westminister (Philly) I think are all good schools - if you can get past other things. I don't know for sure, but I think I would be able to consider a Pastoral Candidate from any of those schools.

[/BJU discussion]SNIP

You're right on the existence of those schools. But, I'm not up on the academic politics of the period especially on the later two.

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How men are trained for ministry is long overdue....

The NT model for ministry seems to be proven faithful service in the local church. This seems vastly different from the "Bible college and seminary" model. While Bible college and seminary can be good and intensive, service in the church deserves more weight. The leaders appear to either have been picked by the apostles and/or the Holy Spirit or to have "emerged" after years of service.
What I have seen over the years has been the improved faithfulness and integrity of the "non-traditional" student over the "greenhouse-grown" students from high schools. Not that that model can't work, it just doesn't work as well.
Clearly, we need to get young people out in actual ministry more because our schools are in serious danger for all the reasons described above.

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The best pastors I've had

The best pastors I've had have been well-educated, with advanced degrees. Universities provide opportunities for interaction with people who are "different" from one's home town and home church. Changing to a system where a pastor's training comes from a single church or from a couple of like churches is a recipe for unorthodoxy and "wrong emphasis." I shudder at the thought.

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Larry wrote: Louise Dan, What
Larry wrote:

Louise Dan, What does this have to do with BJU? Kevin Bauder is not connected with them and has no education or degrees from there.

...

Can you name any professors or deans at BJU using the title of doctor that have no merit in terms of education in their field? (Chapel speakers are on a totally different plane.)

Someone already said it, but BJU and Bauder's seminary are in exactly the same position concerning national v. regional accreditation.

As for your last question, Mr. Berg for one. He has a bachelors and masters from BJ in Bible and Theology. He has an honorary doctorate from Tabernacle Baptist, but no education at all (at least according to his credentials on the BJU website) in the field in which he teaches and works, counseling and psychology.

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BJU Bible professors

Also, unless I missed it going over their website, NO BJU Bible professors have degrees outside of the university. That is a very unhealthy practice.

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Found one

Dr. Hand -- however, his outside degrees aren't even in Bible (the area in which he teaches). So he wasn't educated at BJ, but he also wasn't educated in any seminary.

Louise Dan
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Found one more

Jason Ormiston. His education actually sounds appropriate for the area in which he is teaching.

So 1 out of 14 Bible professors have an accredited degree in Bible.

Larry
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Quote: Someone already said
Quote:

Someone already said it, but BJU and Bauder's seminary are in exactly the same position concerning national v. regional accreditation.

But they don't have anything to do with each other or anything to do with the article, at least so far as I can see. The article seems to be more about the whole process of educational accreditation.

As for faculty, do you have anyone besides Jim Berg? While I disagree with the practice, if the theology is good, it doesn't really matter. Again, I am not aware of any questions of their orthodoxy or any belief that they are a degree mill for theology. I think they would be well served by getting Bible faculty with degrees from other places for several reasons.

What about outside the Bible faculty? How many of those teachers have terminal degrees from BJU and how many from elsewhere. Any idea?

Let's not get this too far afield, however.

On the general topic of pastoral training, I think there are some things that are difficult to learn outside of a classroom with specialized instruction. Furthermore, keeping up with current literature is an important part of education and most pastors don't have the time or resources to do that. I do think that there are some things of pastoral ministry that cannot be learned in a classroom. So I think a hybrid approach is probably a good model.

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Steve, I have no problem

Steve,

I have no problem with the local church taking lead in training pastors. But your post seems to be the other extreme. Maybe I am misreading it. But training men just in "ministry" usually leads to men that are not trained in languages, hermenutics and theology. Anyone remember Steve Anderson?? If not, do a search on youtube. A local church can train their men and I agree with others that it could be done. I think Rachel's caution is good as well. So maybe several area pastors and churches could team up if the need arises? But service only ministry training will lead to many ill-equipped pastors.

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Quote: What about outside the
Quote:

What about outside the Bible faculty? How many of those teachers have terminal degrees from BJU and how many from elsewhere. Any idea?

In the College of Business there are 26 faculty members listed on BJU's website. Of those, only 5 have doctorates, but 2 of those are EDUCATION doctorates from BJU. One is a Juris Doctorate, and the remaining two are PhDs from other institutions.

Thirteen faculty members only have a master's degree (two of which were earned at BJU), and the remaining eight hold only a Bachelor's or Associate's degree.

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Larry wrote: What about
Larry wrote:

What about outside the Bible faculty? How many of those teachers have terminal degrees from BJU and how many from elsewhere. Any idea?

Dr. Mazak, who is the CHAIRMAN of the dept. of psychology, only has a BACHELORS in psychology. His masters from Clemson is the masters of education for school guidance counselors. Even his doctorate from BJ isn't in psychology.

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How many of those 13 Master's

How many of those 13 Master's are MBAs (which is considered a terminal degree isn't it)?

I just went and looked after I wrote that. Of the 13 master's, I counted 11 MBA's only two of which are from BJU. And one of the EdD's has an MBA from elsewhere (not counted in the 11).

Furthermore, you have a couple of aviation people in there which is not exactly a field where you go get a PhD in flight. Terminal has a whole different meaning when you are flying. And don't forget the culinary arts people. Can you get a terminal degree in cooking somewhere?

So, I don't know a lot about the specifics, but I am not overly persuaded that total picture is as bleak as "2 PhDs from other institutions" might make it sound. It looks like about half of them have terminal degrees from outside BJU, and few teach in a fields that probably don't have terminal degrees.

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Larry, I don't mean this

Larry, I don't mean this pejoratively, but you are not facing the facts. Dr. Berg has a complete lack of credentials. Dr. Mazak has the kind of education that would maybe get him a part-time job at a community college teaching 1st year psychology. Or he could be a guidance counselor at Mauldin High School. It sounds mean to say it, and I am saddened that it has to be said. But on the other hand, it's more than mean to advertise yourself as a facility offering expert education for $12,000 a year to students who don't know better when these are the qualifications of your lead teachers. It is right that the government get involved.

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Louise Dan, I am not bothered

Louise Dan, I am not bothered by you sounding pejorative, but what fact that I have not faced.

Did I defend Jim Berg somewhere (although according to SACS a Master's degree is apparently acceptable for teaching undergraduate classes)? I didn't even comment on Dr. Mazak. The only thing I did was point out that the article does not appear to be about BJU or Central, say that I think BJU should hire outside Bible degrees, raised the question if anyone knew the status of terminal degrees at BJU, and then went and counted the MBAs on the business faculty. I am not sure how that indicates that there are facts I am not facing.

Now, with respect to Jim Berg, he was the dean of students for many years and taught one or two classes I believe then. He is a very knowledgeable man in the Scriptures, and you could do worse if you want to learn from someone. And he has about 30 years of experience. But he is hardly the leading teacher at the seminary and Bible faculty. According to the current website, he teaches two classes in the Division of Practical Theology.

With respect to Dr. Mazak and the psychology department, you have to keep in mind that BJU takes a biblical counseling approach in which secular psychology plays a very small (and often misleading) role. People who go there for counseling know that up front, so I hardly think there is misleading going on. Having a PhD in psychology is not helpful for the kind of training that they are offering.

With respect to the Bible faculty in general, I have already said that I think they should hire outside professors.

So what facts am I not facing? And how is getting the government involved in it going to change any of this? Everything you have said here is public information without government involvement.

Back to your original point, your claim was that accreditation is needed because of substandard education. Yet you have not provided any information that BJU offers a substandard education have you?

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While an MBA was once

While an MBA was once considered a terminal degree for those working in business, it is not considered a terminal degree for those teaching at the college level. At my (secular, regionally accredited) university, I think I only had one professor in the College of Business who was teaching with "just" an MBA... and it was "allowed" because he had unique expertise in his field, and he was not considered a full professor. We also did not refer to him as "Doctor."

I just did a quick check of Furman's Business and Accounting department: There are 11 people that appear to be faculty, of the eight people whose credentials were listed, all but one professor has a PhD. The one who only has an MBA is listed as an "adjunct" professor and she has 25 years experience working with major corporations in her field.

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Alternatives...

I know I am opening up a can of worms here, but the CE's are lightyears ahead of (most) of us when it comes to alternative forms of educating pastors. Mark Dever and Capitol Hill Baptist have their internship and weekenders programs both of which have been wildly successful in training men for ministry. Their internship program is being replicated in churches across the country.

Mark Driscoll (I know, I know. Just pretend its a different name) and Mars Hill have re:train which seems to be one of the most viable options going forward. It offers some distance training as well classroom and practical training, and instead of having a full time staff of PhDs and DMins they contract them for a week or two to come teach. The model is very appealing for a number of reasons:

Time and Distance: There is no reason you have to commit 9 months of the year to schooling. You can learn greek and hebrew in an online classroom. Then you can spend 2 months at the campus for other types of training. The rest of the time the students are plugged into "real life" ministry.

Overhead: They don't have to hire a rock star staff. They can use regular teachers for regular coursework (because let's face it, andy grad student can teach basic greek or hebrew). Then they hire the big guns when they need them to teach for a week or two.

This also keeps higher education in its useful place. There is a place for advanced degrees. We need the Kevin Bauders, Wayne Grudems, Alfred Edersheims, etc. Keep them in seminary. Keep our best minds working diligently in the schools and let's contract them out.

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Interesting, Rachel. As I

Interesting, Rachel. As I say, I don't know much about it. I was just curious after you mentioned that so I went a looked it up.

Overall, I think the higher education is going to be changing greatly. My gut is that we are going to see a trend away from liberal arts and towards vocational training (which I think will be worse overall). I think we are going to see increasing amounts of online education (which I think will be worse than classroom training for a lot of reasons). To me, module training or cohort training such as re:train is probably a better model that is sustainable for a while, especially for ministry. But you can't really learn Greek or Hebrew in a one or two week module.

I think pastoral training needs to be a combination of classroom and practical experience or mentorship.

But I would encourage any student to know what they want to do before you get too far down, and keep your options open as much as possible. You need to know up front if you can do what you want to do with the degree you are getting. Take for instance, a BJU degree. You can get into a lot of grad schools with it. But you can't get into all grad schools. So you have to know that up front as much as possible.

But a lot of it depends on what you want to do. If you want to pastor, you do things differently than if you want to be a research professor in chemistry which you do differently than if you want to be a pilot which you do differently than if you want to be an accountant, etc.

But I don't think the feds will be particularly helpful, especially in training Christian worldviews. So far, the feds don't have a great track record in much except spending a lot of money, and higher education certainly doesn't need help spending more money. So I doubt the usefulness of federal intervention in the overall quality.

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Whoa, folks!

Where did all the BJU bashing come from? It's certainly not implied in the article that I wrote. What the Feds are doing now is not directed against BJU or, for that matter, against national accreditation (though it is being driven to some extent by the for-profits, but, ironically, many of them hold regional accreditation).

Nor is this a question of accredited versus non-accredited schools. The Feds are aiming to take over the entire field of higher ed. They will use the accreditation process to do this, but their ultimate goal is to eliminate all non-accredited colleges.

As for Bob Jones University, I'm astonished at some of what I'm reading here. My brother attended BJ, where he received excellent preparation for his field of work. Two of our faculty at Central Seminary have their baccalaureate degrees from Bob Jones. They were well prepared for graduate study and thrived in regionally-accredited doctoral programs.

I know many of the BJU professors personally, as well as others whose doctorates are from Bob Jones. Some of the most thought-provoking conversations I've had in recent years have been with these men. The university has some bright guys who know their stuff, and in many instances they have exported bright guys into other institutions.

People like Chris Barney, Mike Barrett, and Jerry Priest all have their terminal degrees from Bob Jones. They all function at a high level of academic excellence. They have all made or are making contributions to their disciplines. I would have no hesitation about using any of these men to teach in his area of expertise. And Stephen Jones is one of the brightest rising leaders in Fundamentalism. I look for nothing but continued progress on his watch.

Does BJU have room for improvement? Sure! And so do Harvard and Yale. Accreditation has been good for Bob Jones in that it has accelerated the pace of improvement. Whatever weaknesses exist have been acknowledged and are being addressed. The Bob Jones University of today is the most excellent version of the school that has ever existed.

Both of my children attended a non-Christian university that was close to home. They lived in my house and attended their home church. If they had chosen to go away to school, however, Bob Jones University would have been a live option. In the trade-off of considerations it is as good an alternative as any Christian college and better than most.

Incidentally, when it comes to theological education, the gold standard is NOT regional accreditation. The gold standard is national, specifically the Association of Theological Schools. When Stephen Crow was the head of the Higher Learning Commission (North Central Region), Central Seminary was weighing the choice between national and regional accreditation. Dr. Crow informed us that if we went with the HLC, then they would simply assign people from national agencies to evaluate us. The regionals really don't know what to do with seminaries--which explains how some regionally accredited seminaries are able to get away with the things they do.

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Church Centered Training

I applaud those who are pushing for ministry training to be returned to local churches. From the time I came to Central Seminary, I have said that I was trying to work myself out of a job. In an ideal world, every local church would be training its own next generation of pastors. In fact, everything the church would be doing from nursery through college-and-career would be aimed at preparing the next pastors and missionaries--and since the church would not know who those would be, it would have to train every child as if that child were going to be the church's next pastor.

Imagine how that vision would change youth ministry!

As has been noted, however, most churches are not equipped to instruct people in the intricacies and technicalities of biblical languages, hermeneutical theory, systematic theology, and church history. That is why seminaries came into existence--as service organizations to assist local churches in these areas.

In case there is any doubt, let me state this plainly:

SEMINARIES CANNOT ADEQUATELY PREPARE MEN FOR MINISTRY. ONLY CHURCHES CAN DO THAT.

Seminaries exist only to assist local churches. When they cease to do that, then they ought to go out of existence.

For that reason, the best seminary education will include the following components.

(1) The seminary will have a close relationship with a local church or specific group of churches. It will be accountable to that church (or those churches) in tangible ways.

(2) The seminary will employ professors who have serious ministry experience. Ideally, every professor should have been a pastor, missionary, or some other vocational Christian servant (such as a military chaplain). Every professor should bring years of non-academic experience into the classroom with him.

(3) In its training of ministers, the seminary will actually partner with local churches and pastors. Mentoring students and training them in the hands-on aspects of ministry must be done in the church, by pastors. It cannot be done effectively in the seminary classroom.

While I applaud programs like Dever's, they are only part of the solution. An internship cannot take the place of seminary. But seminary cannot take the place of local churches. What a good seminary can do is to provide the graduate with a full box of exegetical, theological, and spiritual tools. Learning to use those tools wisely in the lives of real people is something that requires actual church experience, preferably under the firm but gentle hand of a seasoned pastor.

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I have absolutely no

I have absolutely no knowledge about seminaries or their accreditation standards, so I've had little to say about that aspect of this issue.

I did/do not intend any of my observations about the degrees held by BJU faculty to be an indictment or insult to any of them personally. I have no doubt that they each desire to do right by the students they teach and that they are serving faithfully. I commend them for their service to their students. But while commending them, I can observe that the degree requirements for faculty at other (regionally-accredited) universities are higher.

While you ended your piece discussing the preparation of men for ministry, this issue has much broader scope since many Christian schools also have non-ministry degrees. I believe we have two discussions in this thread; both are worthy of comment. And, since I have little to offer the "training men for Christian service" discussion, I joined in on the "why is this happening?" discussion.

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Wow ;>D

I didn't think Kevin was allowed to post on SI. ;>D

Thanks for your "extras" on this post, Dr. Bauder, in addition to your article. AMEN

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Forrest
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Question for Dr. Bauder,

Dr. Bauder,

You stated

Quote:

(2) The seminary will employ professors who have serious ministry experience. Ideally, every professor should have been a pastor, missionary, or some other vocational Christian servant (such as a military chaplain). Every professor should bring years of non-academic experience into the classroom with him.

My question is, "Is there room for the "professional" scholar in this paradigm?" In other words where does the Ancient Near East History professor or the language expert fit in? I understand the extreme usefulness and practicality of having every staff member be a veteran in the field. But what of the Christian scholar? Should a student seeking to be a scholar in Church history or Bible languages or any other Bible-related topic seek seminary or would it be best for him to look at secular options which can offer perhaps a greater expertise in the field?

One of the problems in my opinion is the conflation of training for scholarship with training for the ministry. Yes our pastors need to be trained well, but the needs of a pastor and a scholar are much different and require different types of training. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Forrest

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Pastoral Training

Clearly, the current paradigm for ministy training is broken. There are too many failures in ministry, and too many who complete their training only to leave ministry after only a few short years.

The problem is this: Anyone who has the money can go to a Bible College or Seminary. Anyone who can pass the courses can get a degree. Anyone who gets the degree can get ordained. Anyone who can get ordained can get a church. And I Timothy 3 is nowhere in sight.

Dr. Bauder is absolutely correct in characterizing the nature of the problem, of course. Local church training is vital for ministry, but because we have such linguistic and cultural distance from the text of Scripture, it is usually not enough. I suppose I'm barely capable of training our guys in N.T. Greek, but I sure don't have the time, unless I drop my pastorate.

Modern technology is beginning to craft an escape from this trap. On-line classes by specialists in the various difficult fields can fill in very well, whether or not any degree is conferred. In just a few short years, who you studied with will be more important than where you studied. So, "I studied hermeneutics in an on-line course from Vanhoozer, and Greek with Dr. ..." will be the kind of thing we hear, rather than "I went to BJU."

Some are already beginning to build this brave new world of ministerial training. For instance, Evangelist Tom Pryde and Dr. Bob Snyder are working on such a program at www.logcollegenetwork.org. Their program is designed to work alongside the church's work in the candidate's life. We have several about to start their program. Dr. Paul Henebury (SI Member!) has a somewhat less radical and more traditional approach at www.inquiroveritas.com. These stand alongside the many excellent on-line programs from the many "storefront" colleges and seminaries still based in brick and mortar.

In short, a well managed church is far better qualified to judge the fitness of someone's life than a Bible College or Seminary. The profs will always have their roles, but it needs to mutate a bit.

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On Christian College

I have a lot of thoughts about this and hope that I don't get too scattered.

I have gradually come to a point where I believe that under-graduate Christian education is highly overrated. I have this opinion as one who has graduated and currently attends seminary at one of (possibly the) only schools that is regionally accredited. That quality of undergraduate education is not what I take issue with. I believe that the school I attended provided sufficient preparation. However, the idea of creating a sheltered environment for college really bothers me. There has to come a point in time where young people learn to stand on their own two feet. That point will eventually come. Hopefully that stage happens early enough that they are able to bounce back from mistakes that are made. Yes, young people need to be grounded in their faith before being faced with a worldview that is completely contrary to Christianity, but maybe secular college wouldn't be such a big deal if parents and churches were doing a good job of this for the 18 years before college. In so many fundamentalist churches Christianity is nothing more than a set of rules to follow. There is little theology and no concept of grace. When an 18 year old raised in this type of church and home is first faced with a secular worldview they crumble because there is no foundation to their faith. They see that there are other ways of behaving that are more enjoyable than how they were raised and the moral standards have no theological grounds; therefore, they leave the faith (I would contend they were never in the faith). The answer isn't Christian colleges; it's good parenting and faithful churches.

(added after posting)
I also take issue with pulling kids away from their local church and sending them to school in a place where local churches are flooded with students and do not provide them a church body that they desperately need at an important life stage.

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On Seminary

Contrary to my feelings towards Christian college my appreciation for seminary has increased. I'll be honest 96 credits seems like huge overkill, but my time in seminary has had unparalleled value. I am frustrated that I am repeating much of my undergrad work (this is not a complaint about seminary; I believe I would have been much better served by getting a degree that could potentially get me a job in business or something like that in undergrad), but I have received immense value from seminary training. I agree with many who have mentioned a heavy local church aspect of seminary. I think that the massive credit amount of an M.Div. (96 at my seminary) could be lowered to include just academics while placing a heavy requirement of local church experience through practicums and internships. I am leery of local church only solutions because they could easily lend themselves to provincialism and the aforementioned problems of repeated generations marrying their cousins.

In summary, I think the ideal path for a preacher would be a secular undergraduate education (in a field that will provide options for supporting a family outside of the ministry) followed by a hybrid local church/seminary education. I think that this solution would solve many of the problems that accreditation may bring.

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Just a clarification

Please don't misunderstand my post from before - I'm not knocking undergraduate education or seminary - I have pastoral degrees from two institutions (NIU and BJU). I'm just wondering what we do if the current model of education isn't going to be sustainable. Personally, I don't think it can or should be...but that's why I'm asking for input. I love the ideas that Forrest (#28), Bauder (#31) or Jhorneck3723 (#37) are referring to.

I am not particularly interested in studying the educational credentials of all college/seminary teachers in Fundamentalism (if there is such a formalized movement anymore). I AM noting that there seems to be a level of academica insularity that is not good for anyone by any criteria - and that I suspect 99.9% of Fundy schools have that problem.

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Jay C. wrote: I AM noting
Jay C. wrote:

I AM noting that there seems to be a level of academica insularity that is not good for anyone by any criteria - and that I suspect 99.9% of Fundy schools have that problem.

But isn't this inherent in the seperatist position as embraced by most of these same institutions?

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No

Because BJU isn't the only Fundamental institution of higher learning - Detroit, Calvary Lansdale, and Central are all good as well; as I mentioned above, I might also look at schools like Faith Free Pres (Greenville), Dallas, Westminster (Philly) and Masters'. They may not offer the range of programs that BJU does, but BJU isn't the only place to get an education. And does an MBA from Clemson or USC really differ from an MBA at BJU?

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Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
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Not Separatism Per Se
Mike Durning wrote:
Jay C. wrote:

I AM noting that there seems to be a level of academica insularity that is not good for anyone by any criteria - and that I suspect 99.9% of Fundy schools have that problem.

But isn't this inherent in the seperatist position as embraced by most of these same institutions?

Well, it may be inherent in separatism as some Fundamentalist schools practice it, but not in separatism per se. For example, the PCA is separatist in a sense, even though it isn't Fundamentalist. It requires all church officers and seminary professors to hold to the Westminster Standards. Yet, if you look at PCA seminaries, you will find that many of their faculty gained their terminal degrees from schools that don't support those beliefs. Covenant Seminary faculty, for example, have many of their PhDs from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, St. Louis, and similar places.

Fundamentalism, or at least large swaths of it, has moved from the healthy practice of holding a recognizable position within the larger scholarly world to unhealthily abdicating scholarship entirely. Now, some Fundamentalists still write books and the occasional journal article, but that doesn't make them works of scholarship. Scholarship includes recognizing and interacting with the other major positions out there, and doing so in venues that allow peer review and discussion. Fundamentalists have retreated from challenging alternative theories - as Warfield, Vos, and Machen did - to ignoring them and hoping they go away. They may have gained something by that move, but they lost scholarship.

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ETS

Several fundamentalists participate regularly at ETS (and publish in journals like Themelios)
But, yes, I think some bad theology regarding the intellect (most likely from the revivalism neck of the woods) encouraged the attitude that the "heart" is better than the "mind" (though in Scripture the "heart" includes the intellect). So we kind of developed an attitude of suspicion toward things intellectual in general.
Fine way to love God with our minds, eh?

Another big factor was the populist thread in the fundamentalist movement and American culture at the time. It's still really weird how American culture worships and demonizes the intellect simultaneously. Am I the only one who finds that weird? We adore what scientists say, but regularly mock people who are really brilliant. Was there a "mad scientist" cliche in any other culture before ours? Maybe so (Dr. Jekyl and Frankenstein come to mind.... hmm, both products of Victorian sentimentalism?) We bow before scholar elites when they pontificate on news shows, but in film, theater, novel, etc. we stereotype them as socially awkward, repressed, clumsy people without common sense. So which is it?

Anyway, just as our culture has not figured out what it believes about the intellect, fundamentalism hasn't either.

But what was the topic here? ... Federal takeover of education. Sad, sad day.

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Is seminary too long?

I would have to say, No.

jhorneck3723 wrote:

I'll be honest 96 credits seems like huge overkill, but my time in seminary has had unparalleled value. I am frustrated that I am repeating much of my undergrad work (this is not a complaint about seminary; I believe I would have been much better served by getting a degree that could potentially get me a job in business or something like that in undergrad), but I have received immense value from seminary training. I agree with many who have mentioned a heavy local church aspect of seminary. I think that the massive credit amount of an M.Div. (96 at my seminary) could be lowered to include just academics while placing a heavy requirement of local church experience through practicums and internships...
In summary, I think the ideal path for a preacher would be a secular undergraduate education (in a field that will provide options for supporting a family outside of the ministry) followed by a hybrid local church/seminary education.

I agree with J. here on some things. If I had it to do over again, I would probably have focused on an even broader undergrad education, and would surely have thought much more deeply about the financial cost vs. return on investment.

With regard to seminary being too long, however, I would definitely disagree. Two reasons:
1) Even though I had a Bible degree from college, I found that seminary repeated almost none of my undergrad training.
2) In the Lutheran tradition I grew up in -- and I believe it still holds true today -- getting an M.Div. is a four-year process = three years in the classroom and one as a vicar (we would say intern). Remember, when you get out into the "real world of ministry," these fellows with many more years of Hebrew and Greek (and Aramaic and Latin) will be your "competition." Is 96 hours too long and impractical for an M.Div.? I say, no way.

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Best pastors . . . . .
Rachel L. wrote:

The best pastors I've had have been well-educated, with advanced degrees. Universities provide opportunities for interaction with people who are "different" from one's home town and home church. Changing to a system where a pastor's training comes from a single church or from a couple of like churches is a recipe for unorthodoxy and "wrong emphasis." I shudder at the thought.

Well, this depends upon your criteria for a pastor. By "best pastors," it often pans out to be the ones I like best. Much like medical doctors, the usual recommendation of being a "good doctor" has nothing to do with his medical skill but it's his bedside manner and personality. I afraid that I must disagree with academic training necessarily producing the best pastor. Many well-trained seminarians turn out to be poor pastors.

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Insularity . . . . .
Jay C. wrote:

Please don't misunderstand my post from before - I'm not knocking undergraduate education or seminary - I have pastoral degrees from two institutions (NIU and BJU). I'm just wondering what we do if the current model of education isn't going to be sustainable. Personally, I don't think it can or should be...but that's why I'm asking for input. I love the ideas that Forrest (#28), Bauder (#31) or Jhorneck3723 (#37) are referring to.

I am not particularly interested in studying the educational credentials of all college/seminary teachers in Fundamentalism (if there is such a formalized movement anymore). I AM noting that there seems to be a level of academica insularity that is not good for anyone by any criteria - and that I suspect 99.9% of Fundy schools have that problem.

Jay, there's a reason that predates your experience. There was a time when our best and brightest were going off to school and returning as Modernists/Liberals. This is the reason for the rise of Fundamentalist institutions.

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DE model delivered through the local church . . . . . .
Dr. Bauder wrote:

While I applaud programs like Dever's, they are only part of the solution. An internship cannot take the place of seminary. But seminary cannot take the place of local churches. What a good seminary can do is to provide the graduate with a full box of exegetical, theological, and spiritual tools. Learning to use those tools wisely in the lives of real people is something that requires actual church experience, preferably under the firm but gentle hand of a seasoned pastor.

Some of us, who have watched the evolution DE since the 1970's, have predicted the demise of the brick and mortar seminary. Rising costs of traditional education and the decreasing cost of electronic instruction have pushed us in such a direction. Digital technology offers us tools that were unavailable a decade ago. Digital media is fantastic for teaching content and skills. One thing that electronic education cannot do is provide the necessary human interaction necessary for quality training and education. With many Christian colleges and seminaries delving into DE, one wonders if this is the wave of the future. I wonder if Dr. Bauder could envision the seminary of the future being a consortium of scholars developing, producing, and providing academic mentoring of online courses to be delivered through the local church. The pastor and staff would provide the praxis and personal mentoring.

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Diversity among Fundamentalist Faculty

In answer to questions about diversity among Fundamentalist faculty, I can speak most directly to the seminaries. Among faculty serving at the five "longest and strongest" seminaries in Baptist Fundamentalism during the past five years, professors have done their doctoral or postdoctoral work at the following non-Fundamentalist institutions:

Westminster Theological Seminary
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Dallas Theological Seminary
Grace Theological Seminary
Marquette University
University of Toronto
Southern Baptist Seminary
University of Pennsylvania
University of Illinois
Temple University
Concordia Seminary
University of Southern California
Nova Southeastern University

If you throw in the adjunct professors this list becomes longer and wider. And, of course, there are professors who worked on their doctorates at three or four Fundamentalist institutions (and I don't mean to include places like Pensacola).

While the Ivies and European schools are not well represented in Fundamentalist institutions, I don't think it's fair to accuse our better seminaries of being insular. I have not done the same kind of tally for the colleges, but I suspect the same is true there. To take a single example, Clearwater Christian College, I see doctorates from the following institutions:

Columbia University
University of South Florida
Arizona State University
Southern Illinois University
Dallas Theological Seminary
Florida State University
Argosy University
University of South Carolina
University of Arkansas
University of Kentucky
Ohio State University
Pennsylvania State University
Westminster Theological Seminary
University of Toledo
University of the Free State, South Africa
University of Alabama
University of Cincinnati
Nova University
University of Georgia
Michigan State University

Again, not exactly an Ivy faculty, but certainly nothing to be embarrassed about. Clearwater is accredited by SACS, which has a reputation for being a bit thorny about faculty credentials.

It is true that one contingent of Fundamentalism tends to be rather insular academically. I don't think that this is a fair accusation against the entire movement.

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Ditto
Mike Durning wrote:

Clearly, the current paradigm for ministy training is broken. There are too many failures in ministry, and too many who complete their training only to leave ministry after only a few short years.

The problem is this: Anyone who has the money can go to a Bible College or Seminary. Anyone who can pass the courses can get a degree. Anyone who gets the degree can get ordained. Anyone who can get ordained can get a church. And I Timothy 3 is nowhere in sight.... In short, a well managed church is far better qualified to judge the fitness of someone's life than a Bible College or Seminary. The profs will always have their roles, but it needs to mutate a bit.

That is a major concern and a problem that should never have been tolerated. Young men send out resumes and apply for ministry positions in the same way that a secular business recruits and hires for their company. They have not been tried and tested in any way, shape, or form. Their 'personal' references come from teachers that have never personally witnessed these guys ministering. It is flat out scary what is being passed off out there as pastor material. Oy vey.

Quote:

Modern technology is beginning to craft an escape from this trap. On-line classes by specialists in the various difficult fields can fill in very well, whether or not any degree is conferred. In just a few short years, who you studied with will be more important than where you studied. So, "I studied hermeneutics in an on-line course from Vanhoozer, and Greek with Dr. ..." will be the kind of thing we hear, rather than "I went to BJU."

Many men before the age of electronics were self taught in the areas of language and philosophy. Those who had that mindset were often exceptional by default. We don't have that same sifting ability today, thanks to the homogenized education system, and we (in general) certainly don't hold up high standards of character and intellectual discipline anymore. The extension of so-called 'adolescence' into the second and third decades of one's life began many years ago, and the crop of ne'er-do-wells has increased to an alarming degree.

Technology is (hopefully) going to result in a resurgence of the self-motivated scholar.

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

In an ideal world, every local church would be training its own next generation of pastors. In fact, everything the church would be doing from nursery through college-and-career would be aimed at preparing the next pastors and missionaries--and since the church would not know who those would be, it would have to train every child as if that child were going to be the church's next pastor.

Imagine how that vision would change youth ministry!

Absolutely- IMO every church should sift through their Sunday School curriculum and get rid of the cartoons and cutesy stories, and start teaching apologetics as soon as the kids can speak English. I think Ken Ham's book Already Gone addresses some major issues in how we teach our children the Scriptures. Too many churches act as if Sunday School doesn't matter, it's just glorified babysitting, and the qualifications for Sunday School teacher are 1) you are a carbon-based life form 2) you have a pulse.

When you've set up your youth and church in such a way, is it any wonder that applying scholarly discipline to Bible study is so rare? That we have ceased to hold up Biblical qualifications as the standard for ministry?

I think the whole accreditation issue is a blessing in disguise, especially if it forces us to reconsider and reformat how we teach and train the next generation.

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RPittman wrote: One thing
RPittman wrote:

One thing that electronic education cannot do is provide the necessary human interaction necessary for quality training and education.

This is true in the sense that most people think of DE, but if a school can retain its committment to quality by requiring digital interaction and keeping the student/teacher ratio appropriate, it can overcome this to a large extent. Coupled with the pastoral role in the local church, I think the mix can attain something that is actually better for the ultimate development of future spiritual leaders -- though probably not professional scholars in Biblical fields.

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This post is not part of the

This post is not part of the seminary discussion that is happening in this thread. It is addressing the issue of accreditation standards that is also happening here.

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While the Ivies and European schools are not well represented in Fundamentalist institutions, I don't think it's fair to accuse our better seminaries of being insular. I have not done the same kind of tally for the colleges, but I suspect the same is true there. To take a single example, Clearwater Christian College, I see doctorates from the following institutions:

. . .

Again, not exactly an Ivy faculty, but certainly nothing to be embarrassed about. Clearwater is accredited by SACS, which has a reputation for being a bit thorny about faculty credentials.

I would have said that SACS (a regional accreditation association) has a reputation for having more stringent standards than national accreditation associations. So, for sake of clarity about the other discussion happening in this thread, I want to say that Clearwater is not one of the institutions that I would express concern about within the list of Christian colleges for non-ministry degrees. By the nature of their meeting more stringent accreditation standards they would (in general) be judged to be offering a "higher quality" product. And, their graduates have more opportunities for graduate-level work.

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You would be mistaken

Rachel,

If you had phrased it that way ("I would have said that SACS (a regional accreditation association) has a reputation for having more stringent standards than national accreditation associations. ") you would have been mistaken. SACS is less stringent than some national associations, and quite a bit more stringent than some regional ones. The way that SACS applies its standards does not always contribute to superior education. That I why I chose the word "thornier." SACS is just plain hard to work with.

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Paul J. Scharf wrote: I would
Paul J. Scharf wrote:

I would have to say, No.

I agree with J. here on some things. If I had it to do over again, I would probably have focused on an even broader undergrad education, and would surely have thought much more deeply about the financial cost vs. return on investment.

With regard to seminary being too long, however, I would definitely disagree. Two reasons:
1) Even though I had a Bible degree from college, I found that seminary repeated almost none of my undergrad training.
2) In the Lutheran tradition I grew up in -- and I believe it still holds true today -- getting an M.Div. is a four-year process = three years in the classroom and one as a vicar (we would say intern). Remember, when you get out into the "real world of ministry," these fellows with many more years of Hebrew and Greek (and Aramaic and Latin) will be your "competition." Is 96 hours too long and impractical for an M.Div.? I say, no way.

I think you misunderstand my complaint. I am vehemently opposed to the uneducated pastor. Personally, I am much more likely to struggle with elitist attitudes in my heart than populist. I think we probably agree on this topic.

1) The duplication I received in my seminary/Bible college training should not reflect poorly on seminary, but on the waste of having an undergraduate Bible degree that requires a seminary education (and there is no way an undergraduate student is capable of receiving the training he needs to pastor at the standard level of maturity of an American college student). I really wish that I had used my undergraduate time to gain a backup plan. Because of my decision to do a B.A. in Bible I have very limited credentials to use to get hired in a non-ministry position. The time spent training in Bible (which I received in seminary any way) would have been better spent on other disciplines. That's not to say that my undergrad did not help me in seminary, it certainly did; however, I think I would have been able to finish seminary with just as good (or better) a grasp on many concepts if I had not had my undergrad and instead worked harder in seminary. However, that's a whole other issue.

2) I'm not willing to do something because that's what everyone does. I think that attitude underlies much of the current methodology which could use updating. I would not encourage a reduction in the level of instruction required, but an increase in instruction through practice. I believe that many seminaries are attempting to do this, but the old ideas of 96 hours for an M. Div. hinder them. Here are the requirements for my seminary's M. Div.:

Biblical Studies and Languages 18
Old Testament Studies 13
New Testament Studies 13
Systematic Theology 17
Historical Theology 8
Pastoral Theology 14
Biblical Counseling 2
Cross-Cultural Studies 2

Pastoral theology, counseling, cross-cultural, and some parts of the other sections would all be more effective, more affordable, and even more enjoyable if offered in a local church setting.

For this to happen more churches need to start investing in training pastors. Instead of seeing a young guy who is gifted and called to ministry and saying, "Youth Pastor!" churches should be pouring into these guys to train them to do the work of a pastor. I say this because that is what I want for myself and I believe that is what would be most helpful to my future ministry. I'm finishing up an M.A. right now. I chose to do the M.A. so that I can serve while working on finishing the last half of my M.Div. I just wish I could find a church who wanted to partner with me and help me rather than just have me as a youth pastor and hope I learn something so I can become a senior pastor.

In a nutshell, I don't believe that the requirements for training for pastoral ministry should be any less rigorous; I just think the current model is cost-prohibitive, time-prohibitive, and risks students missing out on seeing people and the local church as the heart of ministry. I thank God that my seminary has taken steps to prevent all three of those from happening, but I think that more work can be done.

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Kevin T. Bauder wrote: It
Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

It is true that one contingent of Fundamentalism tends to be rather insular academically. I don't think that this is a fair accusation against the entire movement.

Yes, but it is THOSE insular educational institutions within fundamentalism that are accredited by TRACS but do not have faculty with appropriate credentials that are drawing this greater attention from the federal government. My original point was that we can decry government encroachment, but in reality, it is places within fundamentalism that taunted the standard and, in my opinion, committed fraud by charging high costs for education with unqualified professors, that are the true causes of this government encroachment. It's the old adage, "Discipline yourself so others do not have to." TRACS didn't do that and here we are.

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No, Louise. The government's agenda is not directed against TRACS. It is directed against all higher ed. The people who are expressing the most concern right now are the people at CHEA, but the regionals are equally alarmed.

If TRACS were the problem, then CHEA would simply dump TRACS.

If you want to talk about TRACS accredited institutions, then talk about Central Seminary. Even our small faculty has done their doctoral preparation at:

Dallas Theological Seminary
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Southern Baptist Seminary
Westminster Theological Seminary
Grace Theological Seminary

All of these are accredited by regional or ATS schools.

Our graduates have never had any difficulty getting into credible Ph.D. programs, nor have they had trouble finding teaching positions in other institutions. A couple of years we drew up a list of places that our grads had taught at. There were around thirty or forty colleges and seminaries, including mostly regionally accredited institutions. Right now we have our doctoral graduates teaching in a number of regionally accredited institutions.

Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary has chosen not to pursue accreditation at all. Yet their faculty has done doctoral work at:

Grace Theological Seminary
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Baptist Bible Seminary
Southern Baptist Seminary

Detroit has also had very good success getting its graduates into doctoral programs and into the classrooms of other institutions.

Ironically, one of the weakest seminary faculties (in terms of faculty degrees and diversity--they are still good guys who know their stuff) is to be found in a REGIONALLY accredited seminary (no, I am not going to name it). Like I said, the regionals don't know what to do with seminaries.

Again, the Feds are not after TRACS. The Feds are after accreditation.

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Mike Durning wrote:
RPittman wrote:

One thing that electronic education cannot do is provide the necessary human interaction necessary for quality training and education.

This is true in the sense that most people think of DE, but if a school can retain its committment to quality by requiring digital interaction and keeping the student/teacher ratio appropriate, it can overcome this to a large extent. Coupled with the pastoral role in the local church, I think the mix can attain something that is actually better for the ultimate development of future spiritual leaders -- though probably not professional scholars in Biblical fields.

Digital may approximate but it cannot duplicate face-to-face contact. We say so much through body language and facial expression that is not transmitted by words alone. Having been an avid student of DE for a quarter of a century, I am confident that a teacher can never be replaced by a computer. There is a human quality of education that can only be done by actual personal contact with a living, breathing human being. But, you're right that most of this can be made up by pastoral mentoring in the local church. I favor a church-based model for ministry training. In fact, I could envision a Christian university model similar to UNISA that would be administered through the local church with periodic trips to a main campus for laboratory work. What do you think?

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Susan R wrote:
Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

In an ideal world, every local church would be training its own next generation of pastors. In fact, everything the church would be doing from nursery through college-and-career would be aimed at preparing the next pastors and missionaries--and since the church would not know who those would be, it would have to train every child as if that child were going to be the church's next pastor.

Imagine how that vision would change youth ministry!

Absolutely- IMO every church should sift through their Sunday School curriculum and get rid of the cartoons and cutesy stories, and start teaching apologetics as soon as the kids can speak English. I think Ken Ham's book Already Gone addresses some major issues in how we teach our children the Scriptures. Too many churches act as if Sunday School doesn't matter, it's just glorified babysitting, and the qualifications for Sunday School teacher are 1) you are a carbon-based life form 2) you have a pulse.

When you've set up your youth and church in such a way, is it any wonder that applying scholarly discipline to Bible study is so rare? That we have ceased to hold up Biblical qualifications as the standard for ministry?

I think the whole accreditation issue is a blessing in disguise, especially if it forces us to reconsider and reformat how we teach and train the next generation.

Susan, I think you have added to what Dr. Bauder is saying here. He is setting a goal or purpose without getting into how we achieve that goal. You, I think, have added what you consider the means to that goal. However, I must disagree with you and I don't often find myself on the opposition side of the fence from you. Some of the things that you are are suggesting are doomed because the children simply have not developed cognitive skills to handle the material. IMHO, we need to teach memorization and concrete ideas as foundational for later learning. Why do we have kids memorize things that they can't understand? Exactly the same reason that we teach number facts before the kids know about the commutative, associative, identity, etc. properties of numbers. We must use good pedagogical techniques in Sunday School as we would in any school setting. Then, we must decide if our Sunday School teaching is more academic, moral, or spiritual.

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Trivium

Bro. Pittman,

Let not your heart be troubled- I think we do agree on this. I'm not at all opposed to a classical approach to Sunday School, with younger children learning foundational facts and rote memorization. I teach memorization myself in our homeschool. What I am suggesting is that SS material be serious instead of frivolous. Why do we use pictures of Noah and the ark that have goofy, disproportioned animals squeezing out of every window and a rosy cheeked Noah who looks like Santa Claus and then expect children to see those stories as historical fact, or feel the impact of the dreadful reality of the deaths of who knows how many people and animals because of unbelief?

Many churches have, IMO, abdicated their role as a serious teaching institution to traditional schools. They don't spend time equipping parents to teach their children Bible doctrine, church history, or the science that supports God's version of creation and a worldwide flood. SS is where teachers keep kids from swinging from the chandeliers so the parents can get a break and sit in a quiet service.

This attitude eventually leaks into the area of training ministers, and results in shipping these ill-prepared and ignorant young people off to seminary to do what the parents and church should have been doing for the last 18 years. These 'ministers-in-training' are often far removed from actual ministering, and the ability to mentor them is seldom included in the school's dynamic.

Accreditation in the area of seminary and Bible education sounds good, but teaching and training for ministry is not a sterile transmission of information in the vacuum of a classroom or isolated campus. The quality of a minister cannot be measured by his GPA, and a school isn't equipped to measure character and integrity and render personal recommendations of its graduates to churches.

If federal accreditation of seminaries and Bible colleges goes the way of the dodo, I for one will be in the stands cheering. But- that is not to say that the requirements or quality of education not be taken seriously or held to a very high standard. The gov't simply has no place in the logistics of teaching and training young people for ministry.

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[quote=Kevin T. Bauder If you
Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

If you want to talk about TRACS accredited institutions, then talk about Central Seminary. Even our small faculty has done their doctoral preparation at:

Dallas Theological Seminary
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Southern Baptist Seminary
Westminster Theological Seminary
Grace Theological Seminary

All of these are accredited by regional or ATS schools.

I understand this, Dr. Bauder. And I am not attacking Central. But you need to recognize that TRACS accreditation is meaningless when they also accredit a university like BJU where even the long time previous president didn't have a doctorate. And the current president has NO educational degrees outside of BJU. Less than 15% or so of their faculty have terminal degrees from accredited institutions. TRACS accredited your institution, which seems to have exactly the credentials one would expect an accredited institution to have, and BJU, which has exactly the opposite credentials one would expect an accredited institution to have.

But also, you mentioned that the government is encroaching on the definition of a credit hour, the reporting of number of students enrolled, and so forth. It seems that those are all pieces of higher education that SHOULD have a standard definition. I'm curious why the defining of a credit hour seems like encroachment.

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RPittman wrote:This is true
RPittman wrote:

Digital may approximate but it cannot duplicate face-to-face contact. We say so much through body language and facial expression that is not transmitted by words alone. Having been an avid student of DE for a quarter of a century, I am confident that a teacher can never be replaced by a computer. There is a human quality of education that can only be done by actual personal contact with a living, breathing human being. But, you're right that most of this can be made up by pastoral mentoring in the local church. I favor a church-based model for ministry training. In fact, I could envision a Christian university model similar to UNISA that would be administered through the local church with periodic trips to a main campus for laboratory work. What do you think?

Roland, we are in agreement. I suspect the higher the academic level sought, the more critical interaction face-to-face with the prof would become.

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Wouldn't it make sense for accreditation to examine the quality of education per se, and not where the education came from? Any exposure (as a non-BJU grad) to BJU-grads (college instructors, pastors) has been outstanding. They are well-trained.

Are we pursuing / using the wrong standard(s) to judge expertise?

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Quote: Wouldn't it make sense
Quote:

Wouldn't it make sense for accreditation to examine the quality of education per se, and not where the education came from?

But where it "came from" plays a huge part in its quality. Breadth and depth are both important in education, which is why regional accreditation associations generally want to see terminal degrees (for depth) and several institutions represented (for breadth).

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Kevin Subra wrote: Wouldn't
Kevin Subra wrote:

Wouldn't it make sense for accreditation to examine the quality of education per se, and not where the education came from? Any exposure (as a non-BJU grad) to BJU-grads (college instructors, pastors) has been outstanding. They are well-trained.

Are we pursuing / using the wrong standard(s) to judge expertise?

The problem is that this reasoning is totally anecdotal. If a counseling professor who has no training in clinical psychology offers what sounds to be an informed opinion on, say, depression or bipolar disorder, it's still suspect. There is a reason our society has gone the way of certification. Anecdotal evidence simply can't be trusted.

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Louise Dan wrote: I
Louise Dan wrote:

I understand this, Dr. Bauder. And I am not attacking Central. But you need to recognize that TRACS accreditation is meaningless when they also accredit a university like BJU where even the long time previous president didn't have a doctorate. And the current president has NO educational degrees outside of BJU. Less than 15% or so of their faculty have terminal degrees from accredited institutions. TRACS accredited your institution, which seems to have exactly the credentials one would expect an accredited institution to have, and BJU, which has exactly the opposite credentials one would expect an accredited institution to have.

But also, you mentioned that the government is encroaching on the definition of a credit hour, the reporting of number of students enrolled, and so forth. It seems that those are all pieces of higher education that SHOULD have a standard definition. I'm curious why the defining of a credit hour seems like encroachment.

I think Dr. Bauder is concerned because the government has never traditionally intervened in the definitions and reporting of each school, and now they are. That's disconcerting because they're beginning to intervene / interfere in areas they really shouldn't or haven't.

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Here's my final concern. The

Here's my final concern. The opening article talks about government oversight like it's an inappropriate encroachment of authority. On the other hand, maybe this is God's common grace. He does say that He sets up secular authorities "not as a terror to good conduct, but to bad."

Romans 13 1 For(B) there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you(C) will receive his approval, 4for(D) he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God,(E) an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.

If we take these verses literally, we are hard put to say the government in this case is doing an inappropriate thing. Some Christian institutions HAVE done wrong, though perhaps with good motives. And it is good and right that secular authorities oversee and correct this.

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Disagree
Louise Dan wrote:

The problem is that this reasoning is totally anecdotal. If a counseling professor who has no training in clinical psychology offers what sounds to be an informed opinion on, say, depression or bipolar disorder, it's still suspect. There is a reason our society has gone the way of certification. Anecdotal evidence simply can't be trusted.

I disagree. I would say that just because someone can provide proof of training is no guarantee of the existence of understanding or the ability to teach with expertise or understanding. Conversely, just because someone has not received some formal form of education in now way indicates that a person has not studied, pursued, and understood a broad range of views.

I, for one, have had professors that have earned degrees from institutions which would necessarily have required them to study intensely, and yet they were simpleton in their instruction. I have also met those without formal education (or higher forms of it) that were very well read and trained.

The system is artificial. It is what one knows, that what program(s) a person or person(s) have gone through that prove anything. Results, not degrees, are to be examined. Degrees, and from where, are the true anecdotal method. And the failure is (in part) the reason for this entire discussion.

[An example would be a medical doctor being unable to teach in a public high school (or his own children as a home schooling parent) because he does not have a teaching degree from an approved institution. It has nothing to do with what one knows, but rather is a system of control. Pursuing any government approval results in government control, eventually. It has no business in evaluating the teaching of the church, and the church has no business pursuing this evaluation.]

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Louise Dan wrote:

Here's my final concern. The opening article talks about government oversight like it's an inappropriate encroachment of authority. On the other hand, maybe this is God's common grace. He does say that He sets up secular authorities "not as a terror to good conduct, but to bad."

...If we take these verses literally, we are hard put to say the government in this case is doing an inappropriate thing. Some Christian institutions HAVE done wrong, though perhaps with good motives. And it is good and right that secular authorities oversee and correct this.

Louise, if the Federal government suddenly started taking a massive interest in making sure that your parenting style was acceptable - that kids' bedrooms were big enough, that they got what they considered to be enough play time every day, and that all of their toys were on an approved list of acceptable items, would you still be make this argument that it's a good thing? After all, parenting is nothing more than education and training for God's service.

__________________

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
-Eph. 4:29-32, ESV

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Louise, please don't use

Louise, please don't use Romans 13 to justify governmental authority in anything other than what is mentioned in the passage--punishing those who do what is wrong and approving of, protecting, and serving those who do what is right. It has nothing to do with educational oversight.

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Quote: the current president
Quote:

the current president has NO educational degrees outside of BJU. Less than 15% or so of their faculty have terminal degrees from accredited institutions.

Can you give us the accrediting agency guidelines on where degrees come from? I am curious as to what exactly these guidelines are. I have never actually seen anything on them. I did a little looking at SACS the other night and all I could find where the degree requirements for various levels (either Master's or Doctorate) but no information as to where those degrees come from.

Quote:

If a counseling professor who has no training in clinical psychology offers what sounds to be an informed opinion on, say, depression or bipolar disorder, it's still suspect.

As opposed to someone with no training in accreditation offering what sounds to be an informed opinion on, say, accreditation? Laughing out loud ...

But seriously, why is it suspect? (I am not saying it's not, but I want to hear your reasons.)

Furthermore, who gets to determine whether or not something is suspect?

Quote:

Some Christian institutions HAVE done wrong, though perhaps with good motives. And it is good and right that secular authorities oversee and correct this.

Do you really think you can make a case that is "wrong" to have professors educated at certain institutions rather than others? I am fairly sure you would not be of the "legalistic" mindset, and that you would cry foul when someone raises "extrabiblical standards" and insists that other live by them. Perhaps I am misreading you on that. Here it sure sounds to me like you are raising up some standards that fall somewhat short of the typical notion of "wrong."

Are we confident that the federal government is qualified to judge what a good theology professor might look like? Or what a good psychology professor looks like? Given the type of things that the federal government is defending and propogating in public education already, color me skeptical that they will do any better with higher education.

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Greg Long wrote:

Louise, please don't use Romans 13 to justify governmental authority in anything other than what is mentioned in the passage--punishing those who do what is wrong and approving of, protecting, and serving those who do what is right. It has nothing to do with educational oversight.

when the powers-that-be are inventing new definitions of "right" and "wrong". Cooking with lard is now a sin? Angels forfend!

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Greg Long wrote: Louise,
Greg Long wrote:

Louise, please don't use Romans 13 to justify governmental authority in anything other than what is mentioned in the passage--punishing those who do what is wrong and approving of, protecting, and serving those who do what is right. It has nothing to do with educational oversight.

It does have to do with educational oversight if educational institutions are committing fraud.

Fraud -- deceitful pretenses, breach of confidence, posing.

If you portray yourself as an expert in a field, charge large sums of money with the promise that your students will be respected and accepted experts in their field of study upon graduation, but can deliver on neither, then it's fraud. Fraud is wrong. Fraud is sin. We are talking basic business ethics, and Romans 13 most certainly applies here.

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Jay C. wrote: Louise, if the
Jay C. wrote:

Louise, if the Federal government suddenly started taking a massive interest in making sure that your parenting style was acceptable - that kids' bedrooms were big enough, that they got what they considered to be enough play time every day, and that all of their toys were on an approved list of acceptable items, would you still be make this argument that it's a good thing? After all, parenting is nothing more than education and training for God's service.

That's hypothetical. I think the real problem is that an unbiblical view of government has overtaken fundamentalism so that we don't really believe God when He says, quite clearly by the way, that He set up government for HIS purposes. You are worried about encroachment by the Obama administration. But that is NOTHING compared to the Roman authorities in charge at the time Romans 13 was written. Until you believe that God really does set up governments (either Bush's, Obama's, or Caesar's) and that HE is trustworthy with His commandment that we submit to them as protection against wrong, you'll remain suspicious.

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Kevin Subra wrote: An example
Kevin Subra wrote:

An example would be a medical doctor being unable to teach in a public high school (or his own children as a home schooling parent) because he does not have a teaching degree from an approved institution. It has nothing to do with what one knows, but rather is a system of control. Pursuing any government approval results in government control, eventually. It has no business in evaluating the teaching of the church, and the church has no business pursuing this evaluation.

What about the guy who is not a medical doctor claiming to be one? Should we let him practice without oversight? That's the real analogy here. Personally, I don't want to operated on by a guy with an honorary doctorate.

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Quote: Those of us with
Quote:

Those of us with nationally accredited degrees are treated the same as those without accredited degrees. We cannot get admittance into most (if not all) secular graduate programs; they are all now requiring a regionally accredited degree.

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The closest thing they ever had was that the state of TN Dept. of Ed. approved TTU's education degrees for certification. My wife got her TN certification after graduating from TTU, but that changed when the state legislature passed a law that necessitated regional accreditation for approved teacher training programs in the state.

Quote:

I applied for the PACE program in SC (allows folks without teaching degrees to acquire certification), and was denied simply because my degree was from TTU and they are not regionally accredited.

Bolded emphasis mine. (All of these quotes from the PCC seeking TRACS thread.)

THIS is the problem. If schools tell students and parents, "We're accredited!" but fail to mention that their national accreditation will PREVENT the student who graduates with an education degree from getting a teaching certificate in well over half of the states in the nation, then that is WRONG!!!

And if the schools aren't willing to police themselves, then I think it is good for the Federal government to step in and attempt to fix the problem and protect other students from spending thousands of dollars on degrees that are not recognized as legitimate.

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So what are we talking about here- if a church were to take on the task of training the next generation's pastors and missionaries, should they seek accreditation in order to be 'legitimate'? I think the real question is still "Who should be deciding what the requirements are for ministers of the Gospel?".

I was also considering the fact that many colleges recognize the worth of life experience- I have been looking into going back to college to earn another degree, and I actually qualify for quite a few credits based on my life experience, and I can test out of several classes (and earn credits) based on my own independent reading and study. I would think that the church can do the same as well- a man given to study and of good character is just as qualified for ministry as he who has an alphabet soup of letters after his name. Personally, I think the character issue outweighs the education issue- you can teach an upright man, but a slime is a slime no matter how smart he is.

Other than for those who are dedicated to pure scholarship (which is a whole other ball of wax), I see no worth in federal accreditation of seminaries for the training of pastors. Gov't employees are not the ones empowered by God to measure the legitimacy of ministerial qualifications- Paul covered those criteria well enough in Scripture.

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Quote:

If schools tell students and parents, "We're accredited!" but fail to mention that their national accreditation will PREVENT the student who graduates with an education degree from getting a teaching certificate in well over half of the states in the nation, then that is WRONG!!!

The problem is that people don't take any responsibility to understand accreditation before they plunk down their thousands of dollars. There are a bazillion accrediting agencies out there, and schools right up front have the information of where they received accreditation available for anything with two brain cells to rub together.

But human nature is lazy and likes to lay itself on the doorsteps of others and not take any responsibility for researching and asking questions pertinent to their desired career path. The college is not being dishonest about credits not transferring, it's the students and parents who aren't doing their homework. One of the first things any student worth their weight in Skittles should ask is what other schools would accept their credits should they desire to transfer or pursue an advanced degree. And that goes for every college on the planet, not just Christian colleges.

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Quote:

What about the guy who is not a medical doctor claiming to be one? Should we let him practice without oversight? That's the real analogy here.

That's actually not a good analogy, IMO. The MD and the PhD are two different types of degrees, with two different tracks, and two different purposes. Furthermore, the practice of medicine and the life of academia are two entirely different kinds of lives.

Furthermore, in the world of academia, one of the cherished principles is academic freedom which amounts, in many cases, to the lack of oversight (or at least a lack of teeth in the oversight). No one in an oversight position dare challenge the academic freedom of a tenured professor. Of course, this is inconsistently applied, but it is a principled dogma. Medicine doesn't really celebrate freedom. In fact, failure to practice accepted medical norms can lead to all kinds of problems, including multi-million dollar lawsuits.

A professor at a regionally accredited can say something unorthodox every class period without any vetting and no one can call him on it. New medical advances have to go through long periods of testing and evaluation before they are even able to be labeled as "experimental." And patients have to be fully informed that something is experimental.

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Louise Dan wrote:

What about the guy who is not a medical doctor claiming to be one? Should we let him practice without oversight? That's the real analogy here. Personally, I don't want to operated on by a guy with an honorary doctorate.

Louise, my analogy stands. A piece of paper proves nothing either way. The whole accreditation scheme is artificial. That's my point.

I'm addressing the superficial process whereby people or institutions are OK'd. And I don't think it has a place within the Church. There's no such discussion in Scripture. The Word is the measure, not where one went to school, or who accredited someone. The local church selects their leaders with the help of other leaders. No mention is made of their diverse training backgrounds, etc.

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Larry wrote: Quote: What
Larry wrote:
Quote:

What about the guy who is not a medical doctor claiming to be one? Should we let him practice without oversight? That's the real analogy here.

That's actually not a good analogy, IMO. The MD and the PhD are two different types of degrees, with two different tracks, and two different purposes. Furthermore, the practice of medicine and the life of academia are two entirely different kinds of lives.

Larry, I believe you've missed the point that was being made. No one is trying to say that PhD's are out there trying to practice medicine. However, there are:

1. HONORARY DOCTORATES out there teaching/acting as if these are EARNED DOCTORATES

2. Professors whose highest degree is a BACHELOR's DEGREE teaching students who are attempting to earn their BACHELOR'S DEGREE

This was the analogy . . . that there are professors teaching at TRACS schools who do not have the qualifications normally recognized to meet the requirements to do so.

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Larry wrote: Quote: What
Larry wrote:
Quote:

What about the guy who is not a medical doctor claiming to be one? Should we let him practice without oversight? That's the real analogy here.

That's actually not a good analogy, IMO. The MD and the PhD are two different types of degrees, with two different tracks, and two different purposes. Furthermore, the practice of medicine and the life of academia are two entirely different kinds of lives.

Larry, you missed the point of what I was saying. I was particularly talking about professors and college presidents that call themselves doctors but don't even have a PhD from an unaccredited school. The difference between an MD and PhD is irrelevant. How about the difference in a PhD and an honorary PhD? The use of honorary doctorates in some fundamentalist institutions is outright fraud and makes the term Doctor almost meaningless.

Here's my final comment. I don't care if government has oversight over seminaries. It would be great for seminaries to be free of some of the constraints of accreditation or if churches did their own training. But you need to be honest about WHY government wants to define credit hours, monitor reporting of students enrolled, and expects accredited degrees among faculty. It's because schools that offer things beyond bible degrees (say counseling, education, nursing, accounting, and so on) have misled their students about their credentials and what an unaccredited degree will do for them. And when TRACS allows and "accredits" an institution run by honorary doctorates and inbred education, then they make themselves suspect.

If you google educational fraud, you will see that fraudulent educational outlets are rampant. And just as we would want some kind of oversight of a bank that doesn't actually protect your money (or maybe you would argue that government overstepped its bounds in prosecuting Bernie Madoff?) or a pharmacy that sells fake FDA approved heart medicine, it is reasonable that government stops educational fraud. Schools like BJU weren't wise in taking steps to protect themselves from being lumped in with fraudulent schools. They thumbed their nose at generally accepted educational norms, and here is the consequence.

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Let's try again

Louise,

Once again, I think you've got it wrong way 'round. The Feds are not going after accreditation because of the nationals. They are going after accreditation because of the regionals.

The Feds are tired of paying money for students to attend institutions with national accreditation, only to have those students required to repeat the same hours when they transfer into a regionally accredited school. The Feds are tired of having regionally-accredited schools reject applicants for graduate programs when those applicants have graduated from nationally accredited undergrad institutions. It's regionally accredited institutions that are creating the problem with their prejudicial attitude toward national accreditation (not just TRACS, but organizations like ABHE, DETC, etc., whose standards are sometimes more stringent than the regionals).

Here is a paragraph from a communication dated 14 Sept. 2009. It is from Robert Gomez of the Information Resource Center at the US Department of Education.

"There is no quality difference between regional and national accrediting agencies, nor does one outrank the other. Basically, regional agencies accredit public or private colleges and universities within a specific state or region, whereas the national agencies are specialized, meaning they accredit "programs" (programs, departments, schools) within a larger institution/university that is already accredited by a regional. It is really only a small group of the national agencies that accredit free-standing "institutions" like rabbinical, allied health, bible colleges, distance education, business, and vocational/occupational/trade/technical schools. "

This is pursuant to a separate communication dated 30 Aug. 2007, in which Carol A. Griffiths (chief of the Accrediting Agency Evaluation Unit of the Department of Education) stated,

"In order to be recognized by the Secretary, an accrediting agency must demonstrate to the Secretary's satisfaction that it meets the Criteria for Recognition, which are stated in Federal regulation. The Criteria do not differentiate between types of accrediting agencies, so the recognition granted to all types of accrediting agencies-regional, institutional, specialized, and programmatic-is identical."

Get it? In the eyes of the Feds, the nationals are just as good as the regionals. THAT'S the problem. When some regionally accredited institutions act prejudicially against some nationally accredited institutions, the Feds see money going down the drain.

Ironically, there are plenty of nationally accredited schools (including some TRACS schools) that are salivating for a Federal takeover. They see this as a quick way to solve problems of transfer credits, etc.

Accreditation never guarantees transfer of credits or recognition of degrees from other institutions, not even between regionally accredited schools. In virtually every case, other criteria will also be factored into the decision. Every institution (whether regionally or nationally accredited) will have its own rubrics for deciding those questions. The Feds are pushing for standardization. CHEA and the regionals are resisting--and I'm glad they are.

There is a real problem, but it is not the one you think. There is a need for standardization. The question is whether the solution to that problem should be left in the hands of the private sector (as it has always been), or whether it should simply be taken over by the government. If there is a government takeover, then all non-accredited institutions will lose the privilege (not right!) of granting degrees. For this and other reasons, I see a government takeover in this area as highly problematic.

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Rachel, I wasn't under the

Rachel,

I wasn't under the impression that anyone claimed PhDs were practicing medicine (though some do I believe). The point is that comparing an MD with a PhD is an illegitimate comparison because the degrees serve two completely different purposes in their respective fields. That's all.

Quote:

1. HONORARY DOCTORATES out there teaching/acting as if these are EARNED DOCTORATES

2. Professors whose highest degree is a BACHELOR's DEGREE teaching students who are attempting to earn their BACHELOR'S DEGREE

TRACS schools are not able to do this according to the TRACS guidelines. They say:

Quote:

The faculty must possess the appropriate academic credentials and experiences for their teaching assignments.
a. Faculty hold at least the master's degree in their teaching field from an accredited institution in order to teach at the associate or bachelor's level, including 18 graduate hours in the field of his or her teaching assignment.*
*All references to "from an accredited institution" specifically refer to an institution that is accredited by an accrediting agency approved by the U. S. Department of Education as a nationally recognized accrediting body.

That appears actually to be higher than the SAC requirements. SACS says that those teaching associates classes not designed for transfer to a baccalaureate degree only have to have a bachelor's degree. Under TRACS, associate level teaching requires a master's degree.

I don't know of any TRACS accredited schools where honorary doctorates are being used as teaching credentials. Do you?

You have to remember that some people with honorary doctorates may be teaching based on their master's degree, not their doctorate.

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Louise, I am not entirely

Louise, I am not entirely sure how to proceed here. I have asked you several questions that would help us all to understand where you are coming from and what exactly your complaint is. So far, you haven't answered. It sounds an awful lot like your main complaint is that BJU exists and confers degrees. I actually recently asked a number of the deans about some of these issues with accreditation, and they said they tell prospective students up front what the lay of the land is so they know ahead of time.

But I went ahead and did a little searching about requirements for professors. You can see in my response to Rachel above that TRACS accreditation requires doctorates and master's from accredited institutions for teaching. I can't find any place where it talks about where in specific those degrees come from.

Quote:

I was particularly talking about professors and college presidents that call themselves doctors but don't even have a PhD from an unaccredited school.

If a person has done legitimate doctoral level work they are entitled to the title. If they haven't they may still be entitled to the title based on other things. Remember honorary degrees were typically given for a life of contribution to a particular field. It is true that some schools have greatly compromised this, but TRACS schools are not allowed to have professors who teach based on honorary or unaccredited degrees.

Quote:

The difference between an MD and PhD is irrelevant.

Actually, it's quite relevant if you are comparing them, as you seemed to be doing.

Quote:

How about the difference in a PhD and an honorary PhD?

I am not aware of anyone who has or is giving out honorary PhDs. In the academic world, honorary degrees have other designations, typically.

Quote:

The use of honorary doctorates in some fundamentalist institutions is outright fraud and makes the term Doctor almost meaningless.

Fraud? Probably not. But a honorary degree is not a basis for teaching.

Quote:

And when TRACS allows and "accredits" an institution run by honorary doctorates and inbred education, then they make themselves suspect.

And TRACS does this? I asked you above if you could tell us about accrediting agencies guidelines on where their professors get their degrees. You didn't. I have done a little searching and can't find any requirements.

Quote:

If you google educational fraud, you will see that fraudulent educational outlets are rampant.

I doubt you will find anyone here defending fraudulent educational outlets.

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Not True
Louise Dan wrote:

If you google educational fraud, you will see that fraudulent educational outlets are rampant. And just as we would want some kind of oversight of a bank that doesn't actually protect your money (or maybe you would argue that government overstepped its bounds in prosecuting Bernie Madoff?) or a pharmacy that sells fake FDA approved heart medicine, it is reasonable that government stops educational fraud. Schools like BJU weren't wise in taking steps to protect themselves from being lumped in with fraudulent schools. They thumbed their nose at generally accepted educational norms, and here is the consequence.

Actually, that's not true. The reason why BJU and so many other schools did not want to be accredited is because they were afraid that this would happen - that the DoEd would start trying to get the schools to change their curricula, mandate textbooks - Heather Has Two Mommies, for example in the case of preschoolers / kindergarteners - and force the schools to legitimize things like quotas and affirmative action.

The wisdom of opting in or out is quite a bit different when you realize that they had good reasons for not wanting to get entangled in the first place. If I can find the old BJU paper on non-acceditation, I'll link to it here. And it's not just BJU that did this, as well.

--edit--

Here's some of the policy as reproduced elsewhere:

Quote:

WHAT IS THE ACCREDITING ASSOCIATIONS’ AGENDA?

The accrediting agencies have their own "gods." A Christian college can’t receive their stamp of approval without bowing down to their gods--their policies, their philosophy, their agenda.

The Chronicle of Higher Education. October 10,1990, presented an article exploring what role accrediting associations should play in shaping campus quality and diversity. The Western Association of Schools and Colleges (one of the six accrediting agencies) decided in 1988 that every college under its aegis should be expected to make continuing progress toward becoming a multiracial, multicultural institution. The Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools (Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New York, et al.) has taken a similar stand. We can assume the other four accrediting agencies will follow suit and hasten education’s role in producing citizens for the new world order.

These accrediting associations are not merely concerned about the educational agenda. They also wish to dictate the social agenda. They want the colleges to indoctrinate graduates that will be good citizens for the New Age. This means that for the first time, the Federal Government, through its recognized agency--the regional accrediting associations--will be party to the control of intellectual viewpoints by encouraging some and excluding others.

Foremost on the agenda of the Christian college should be its desire to produce Christians who are biblical in their philosophy and style of life. The New Age agenda is antithetical to the Christian college’s purpose. We don’t worship the gods of the New Age. It isn’t hard to figure out what will happen to the Christian college that allows accrediting bodies thus minded to dictate its educational and social policy.

The associations’ expectations regarding "diversity" affect virtually every aspect of campus life. Their social agenda requires institutions to have equal opportunity and affirmative action policies. Their plan addresses curricula, recruiting, and retention strategies for students, faculty, and staff members; student life programs; academic support for students—pervasive control over all aspects of the school. The Chronicle’s closing statement sounds an ominous warning, "Campuses are changing, and so is the nature of accreditation."

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Larry, this is the nail in the coffin.
Larry wrote:

TRACS schools are not able to do this according to the TRACS guidelines. They say:

Quote:

The faculty must possess the appropriate academic credentials and experiences for their teaching assignments.
a. Faculty hold at least the master's degree in their teaching field from an accredited institution in order to teach at the associate or bachelor's level, including 18 graduate hours in the field of his or her teaching assignment.*
*All references to "from an accredited institution" specifically refer to an institution that is accredited by an accrediting agency approved by the U. S. Department of Education as a nationally recognized accrediting body.

This is what TRACS tells the Dept of Ed that it does, and yet in reality it did the exact opposite. It certified BJU when ALL of their Bible faculty and the vast majority of their other faculty only had degrees from unaccredited BJU! They basically said, "While you don't meet our requirements, we're going to accredited you so that you will." Furthermore, whether you believe their BJ degrees are worthy of accreditation or not, you still have people like Greg Mazak HEADING UP ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS without "appropriate academic credentials" for their teaching assignments.

Larry, TRACS didn't keep TRACS own standards. So, back to Dr. Bauder's last point, even if only TRACS is doing this kind of outright fraud (certifying institutions that don't meet their own standards for certification), then it is right that regional agencies start rejecting their credits, and it is right for the DOE to step in and figure out what is happening.

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TRACS website uses the term

Louise Dan, I don't know a lot about the accreditation process or the academic world so I have tried deliberately to be cautious in my assertions about it. I am not sure what your qualifications are to speak to it either.

TRACS website uses the term "substantive compliance." I don't know what exactly that means, particularly with respect to BJU. I don't know much about BJU's accrediting process, the makeup of their faculty degrees and the like. I don't know anything about what was said or done. So I am going to withhold comments on the specifics. FWIW, I have heard some suggest that it is better to be unaccredited than TRACS accredited. I don't really care either way, so my point is not a defense of TRACS or anyone else. My point was that early on you made some statements that did not appear to be entirely clear or accurate. And you tried to focus on BJU when that was not the point of the article (and still isn't).

Quote:

you still have people like Greg Mazak HEADING UP ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS without "appropriate academic credentials" for their teaching assignments.

What would be an "appropriate academic credential" for teaching about biblical change and the human condition?

We still have not had any discussion about what would qualify an organization to assess academic quality. To my way of thinking, that would be a pretty important point. (But my education is mostly unaccredited so I am probably not entitled to a place at the table in this discussion cuz you know, some of the people I learned from didn't have accredited degrees).

I am not sure why anyone thinks the federal government would be equipped for this. As I say, I have not been impressed with their educational efforts so far. I don't see any hope for change in that.

I tend to think graduates should be assessed on their abilities and skills, not on the name on their diploma. If you can teach effectively, why does it matter who taught you to teach? If you can add numbers properly, why does it matter who taught you to add? And if you can't do either, does it really matter that your degree was accredited?

If we start to assess real skill level, the accreditation issue becomes moot, it seems to me. But if accreditation is a world of cronyism that may match old time fundamentalism, that may be unlikely to happen.

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Quote: Quote: The faculty
Quote:
Quote:

The faculty must possess the appropriate academic credentials and experiences for their teaching assignments.
a. Faculty hold at least the master's degree in their teaching field from an accredited institution in order to teach at the associate or bachelor's level, including 18 graduate hours in the field of his or her teaching assignment.*
*All references to "from an accredited institution" specifically refer to an institution that is accredited by an accrediting agency approved by the U. S. Department of Education as a nationally recognized accrediting body.

That appears actually to be higher than the SAC requirements. SACS says that those teaching associates classes not designed for transfer to a baccalaureate degree only have to have a bachelor's degree. Under TRACS, associate level teaching requires a master's degree.

Then BJU is violating TRACS policy. A quick look at the nursing program shows 4 faculty with just a bachelor's degree teaching 200, 300, and 400 level nursing courses. One member of the nursing faculty appears to just have an A.A. and is teaching a 300 level course.

Quote:

I don't know of any TRACS accredited schools where honorary doctorates are being used as teaching credentials. Do you?

You have to remember that some people with honorary doctorates may be teaching based on their master's degree, not their doctorate.

Well this is a bit tricky, really. If someone is teaching a master's level course and has both an earned master's and an honorary doctorate, which one are you "counting" them teaching with? There is no good answer. A master's level course being taught by someone with just a master's is (generally) inappropriate... so maybe they're using their honorary doctorate as the legitimizing degree? If the person in question is addressed as "Doctor" one can't help but think that the honorary doctorate is what is being "used."

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Accreditation Standards

Someone who has not worked with accreditation may not understand what the associations (whether national or regional) are looking for.

For years, schools accredited by the North Central Regional have been able to use professors with doctorates from unaccredited institutions if, like Bob Jones University, the unaccredited institutions gave evidence of being bona fide educational institutions. Furthermore, individuals with honorary doctorates have been able to teach in North Central Regional schools, provided they have made a significant contribution to their discipline that justifies their employment.

One of my doctorates is from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, which is accredited by both NCA (now HLC) and by ATS. During my studies there, I had more than one professor who had either no doctorate or only an honorary doctorate. Sometimes professional expertise is what counts.

SACS and Middle States tend to be stickier on these standards. NCA/HLC tends to be a little more flexible. And NCA is really the behemoth among the regionals.

What the accrediting associations are most concerned with are the following:

(1) That the institution has a clearly stated mission that fits into the category of higher education. [As long as it fits the category of higher ed, accreditation does not interfere with the mission.]

(2) That the institution is working out its mission strategically in terms of its values, institutional objectives, programs, and other aspects of campus life.

(3) That the institution is assessing every aspect of its operation for its contribution to accomplishing the mission.

(4) That the institution is drawing students to its mission and equipping them in a way that will accomplish the mission.

(5) That the institution has sufficient resources to achieve its mission.

(6) That the institution is, in its governance, free of conflicting interests that could thwart or interfere with the accomplishing of its mission.

If the institution can demonstrate all of the above adequately, that is what really counts.

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Isn't this getting back to the original question
Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

Sometimes professional expertise is what counts.

After all the bruhaha about BJU, accrediting agencies, accrediting standards, etc...Isn't this statement getting back to the original question about ministry training in light of what the Department of Education is seems likely to do?
Local church based ministry preparation seems to be the Biblical paradigm and the way that churches need to seriously consider. This is said without discounting the valuable contributions that Bible Colleges and Seminaries have made. I thank God for the admirable service many have provided to local churches. But as Dr. Bauder pointed out in the original essay, they are parachurch organizations working under the medieval and modern Western paradigm of the University system...there is no Biblical precedent for them.
So, bouncing an idea of of the quoted statement...shouldn't we start seriously looking at what "apt to teach" means for the pastor, and what "equipping the saints for the work of the work of the ministry" really looks like in the local church? It's "professional" expertise that counts--professional expertise as measured by the Scriptures, not TRACS, SACS, NCA, HLC, or any other accrediting agency.

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Susan R wrote: Mike Durning
Susan R wrote:
Mike Durning wrote:

Clearly, the current paradigm for ministy training is broken. There are too many failures in ministry, and too many who complete their training only to leave ministry after only a few short years.

The problem is this: Anyone who has the money can go to a Bible College or Seminary. Anyone who can pass the courses can get a degree. Anyone who gets the degree can get ordained. Anyone who can get ordained can get a church. And I Timothy 3 is nowhere in sight.... In short, a well managed church is far better qualified to judge the fitness of someone's life than a Bible College or Seminary. The profs will always have their roles, but it needs to mutate a bit.

That is a major concern and a problem that should never have been tolerated. Young men send out resumes and apply for ministry positions in the same way that a secular business recruits and hires for their company. They have not been tried and tested in any way, shape, or form. Their 'personal' references come from teachers that have never personally witnessed these guys ministering. It is flat out scary what is being passed off out there as pastor material. Oy vey.

Quote:

Modern technology is beginning to craft an escape from this trap. On-line classes by specialists in the various difficult fields can fill in very well, whether or not any degree is conferred. In just a few short years, who you studied with will be more important than where you studied. So, "I studied hermeneutics in an on-line course from Vanhoozer, and Greek with Dr. ..." will be the kind of thing we hear, rather than "I went to BJU."

Many men before the age of electronics were self taught in the areas of language and philosophy. Those who had that mindset were often exceptional by default. We don't have that same sifting ability today, thanks to the homogenized education system, and we (in general) certainly don't hold up high standards of character and intellectual discipline anymore. The extension of so-called 'adolescence' into the second and third decades of one's life began many years ago, and the crop of ne'er-do-wells has increased to an alarming degree.

Technology is (hopefully) going to result in a resurgence of the self-motivated scholar.

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

In an ideal world, every local church would be training its own next generation of pastors. In fact, everything the church would be doing from nursery through college-and-career would be aimed at preparing the next pastors and missionaries--and since the church would not know who those would be, it would have to train every child as if that child were going to be the church's next pastor.

Imagine how that vision would change youth ministry!

Absolutely- IMO every church should sift through their Sunday School curriculum and get rid of the cartoons and cutesy stories, and start teaching apologetics as soon as the kids can speak English. I think Ken Ham's book Already Gone addresses some major issues in how we teach our children the Scriptures. Too many churches act as if Sunday School doesn't matter, it's just glorified babysitting, and the qualifications for Sunday School teacher are 1) you are a carbon-based life form 2) you have a pulse.

When you've set up your youth and church in such a way, is it any wonder that applying scholarly discipline to Bible study is so rare? That we have ceased to hold up Biblical qualifications as the standard for ministry?

I think the whole accreditation issue is a blessing in disguise, especially if it forces us to reconsider and reformat how we teach and train the next generation.

I agree with Susan here. Youth (12 and up) should be trained for adulthood and not with the secular adolescent model that has been adopted by many fundamental Christians. By 18, if youth are saved, separated and serving they should have a heart to reach their generation in society by attending colleges where they can be grow through involvement in a local church discipleship program and reach the lost on campus. Practical evangelistic work using the apologetic they have learned is crucial in the maturing process.

The local church can train pastors and missionaries without the help of seminaries brick or mortar or on-line education. Just use books. How simple! Like home-schooling, but in the household of the local church family. Outside interaction with other pastors, speakers, field trips to other ministries can augment this education. What a concept! Biblical too.

Bible College and Graduate School and their paradigm is over-rated.

DJung

Kevin T. Bauder
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Joined: Sat, Jun 6 2009
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Maybe the paradigm, but not the preparation

Derek,

You may be right that the college/seminary paradigm is over-rated. What is not over-rated is the preparation that these institutions provide.

The purpose of a pastor is not PRIMARILY to hold peoples' hands, to engage them socially, or to have a comforting bedside manner. The purpose of ministry is to mediate to people the system of faith as revealed in the Word of God so that their lives are conformed to God's expectations.

To put it bluntly, that requires learning. Of a high order.

There are two sides to pastoral leadership: the expository side and the exemplary side. On the expository side, a pastor has to be able to understand and explain the Scriptures for himself. He cannot afford to echo commentaries or theologies. He is responsible to do the work of the mind on his own.

That means that he has to be competent in the biblical languages. He has to master the art and science of hermeneutics. He must work out the Bible's teachings in terms of the way that they affect each other and the way that they affect life--i.e., he must be a good theologian. And he must be able to take this whole bundle of knowledge, reduce it to comprehensibility, and bring it to bear upon people's lives (whether in the pulpit, the counseling session, or the discipleship meeting).

In order to perform these tasks, a pastor must first possess the tools of thought. These tools are three in number: grammar, rhetoric, and logic. Of all people, a pastor has an obligation to grow skillful in the use of these tools, for without them thinking is not possible. These are the tools that are normally sharpened during one's undergraduate training.

In short, an pastor MUST be an educated man. If he is not, he is likely to seriously misunderstand his text and his task. He will never take his congregation where he cannot go. The likely result (even if he is a kind and warmhearted man) will be a congregation that is seriously shallow. For a generation that congregation may continue to be carried by the momentum of its forebears, but the next generation will begin to evidence the decay.

This is precisely the choice that Fundamentalism made in the early 20th century. When we rejected seminaries for Bible institutes, we traded away a learned ministry for mess of pragmatic pottage. The result is the shambles that we see today. We have had three generations of pastoral leadership that was increasingly efficient at getting things done, but increasingly deficient at knowing what was worth doing.

The belief that we had to do something to fix that disaster is one of the things that drove me from the pastorate into seminary teaching.

Granted, learning by itself will not fix all problems (knowledge puffs up), but ignorance is not demonstrably superior. I have never, ever had a pastor tell me that he regretted having learned too much in seminary, and I never expect to (assuming a decent seminary that focuses on Scripture). I have heard many pastors share their regret that they skipped seminary and failed to obtain a level of skill that would have made them more effective than their are.

If a church is serious about training its own ministers, I'll cheer them on. If, on the other hand, their talk of training pastors is only so much cant to cover up the fact that they really want to sell God's people into populism, pragmatism, revivalism, and roll-your-own-at-home theology, then shame on them.

If you dissolve all Bible colleges and seminaries today, within a decade you'll be starting them up again. Less than a handful of churches are actually able and willing to do the job of training pastors for themselves.

If we want to fix the problem, we begin by strengthening churches. While we do that, we set a high standard for the sort of preparation that a pastor requires. Then we aim to provide that--whether through a single church, a group of churches, or an institution that is accountable to churches (a seminary).

At the end of the day, I don't think it matters whether we offer degrees (though, if we do offer them, it matters whether they are credible). What does matter is that we are giving pastors the tools that they need in order to minister. That will be more than a seminary with a traditional M.Div. can offer, but it should never be less.