Conundrum

The year was 1986. I was about a year into my first senior pastorate, preaching to a church with a membership that was pushing 200. After a year in this ministry, I was experiencing frustration from two sources.
First, I was wondering why my college and seminary had not taught me more about what the real pastorate would be like. I felt that I had been poorly trained to face many of the actual situations that present themselves in ministry. Second, while I had grown up in one of the more balanced versions of fundamentalism, I had reason to question the model of leadership that I saw employed by many Fundamentalists. On the one hand, these leaders could be authoritarian to the point of brutality. On the other hand, they seemed preoccupied with trivial questions to which they gave answers that were either irrelevant or simply silly.
For instance, one of my earliest written pieces was a response to someone who was trying to impose the “no pants on women” theory on our church. I regarded Fundamentalist speculations about music as simply pathetic. In fact, the typical answers to the whole orbit of “cultural taboos” (as they were sometimes called) struck me as vacuous. The case that some Fundamentalists made for their version of separation was utterly unimpressive.
To be sure, there were still Fundamentalist figures whom I admired both for their leadership and for their thoughtfulness. The number of these, however, was declining. I had begun to look for other answers than I had been given and other models than I had received. In short, I was on the brink of a crisis.
I thought that I might find answers in more advanced training, and ended up in a broadly evangelical institution while continuing to pastor. Later I did a fair amount of my work under mainline ecumenical auspices. I found that I had been welcomed into a new world, and I am still grateful for what I received there. I was exposed to exciting new models and methodologies. Before long, however, I began to discover that these models and methods rested upon philosophical and theological assumptions that had too often been left unexamined. As I pushed to explore the ideas that drove the methodologies, I encountered as much closed-mindedness within evangelicalism as I had come across within Fundamentalism. Furthermore, I found that the new methodologies resulted, not in less, but in greater trivialization of the Christian faith.
All of this pushed me back into an investigation of first things. I found myself asking, What is the church? What is the church for? What is its mission, its structure, its polity, its leadership? What is worship? What is fellowship? How are we supposed to do these things? Indeed, what is Christianity?
It may seem surprising that a pastor writing for his doctorate would be asking such questions, but there I was. Although I had begun to move toward answers that would lead to a fairly radical reorganization of my understanding, I was very uncertain of my conclusions, and I felt that I could not ask a church to wait for me while I tried to find answers. I left my pastorate in order to seek answers in another doctoral program.
Ultimately, the answers came from a confluence of four elements. These elements influenced me in different ways, some more positively than others. None of them did I accept uncritically, but in each of them I found some key idea or ideas that helped to provide the mental categories that I needed before I could sort out the questions and find the answers.
The first element was a definitely Reformed approach to culture. I first became consciously aware of this theory when I read Machen’s essay on “Christianity and Culture.” In the Reformed theory, Christians recognize that all of culture must be brought under the Lordship of Christ. The approach is summarized in Abraham Kuyper’s words: “There is not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: Mine!”
The second element was a prolonged encounter with the works and perspectives of H. Richard Niebuhr, centering on the categories in his famous Christ and Culture. In this work, Niebuhr attempted to provide a typology of possible approaches to culture. Niebuhr’s categories were useful to me, but they became more useful when I realized the fundamental incoherence of Niebuhr’s typology. Eventually, a modified appropriation of Niebuhr became a powerful engine for critiquing various approaches to culture.
Third, at the same time I was reading Niebuhr, I was also reading broadly on cultural issues. When I say broadly, I mean to include sociologists such as Emile Durkheim, Ernst Troeltsch, Max Weber, and especially Peter Berger. My reading also included critics such as Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Matthew Arnold, Jacques Barzun, and the Marxian, Raymond Williams. It also included shapers of the postmodern theory of knowledge such as Martin Heidegger, Hans-Georg Gadamer, Jürgen Habermas, Michael Polanyi, and Thomas Kuhn.
The writings of these individuals were instructive, but stronger influences came from a disparate and sometimes quirky collection of my favorite authors. During this period I devoured the writings of Richard Mitchell, Russell Kirk, E. D. Hirsch, T. S. Eliot, Abraham Kaplan, Leonard Bernstein, Aaron Copland, and especially Richard Weaver and C. S. Lewis. As I completed this reading, a definite theory of culture and its relationship to Christian faith was taking shape in my own mind.
The fourth and latest element that influenced me was a profound interaction with what I will call the “theologians of affection” (the proper name for this approach is fideism). Theology of the affections is very Augustinian, and therefore it is also Calvinistic. It shows up in Pascal, but receives its most sustained treatment in Jonathan Edwards. It is also the theory that undergirds the approach of C. S. Lewis to the presentation of Christianity.
Exposure to these theologians (especially Edwards) and to Lewis reinforced the importance of the affections. It also highlighted the crucial distinction between affections and passions or appetites, a distinction that was recognized almost universally in the premodern world. Lewis provided the mechanism for articulating this distinction in more specific ways (see especially his Experiment in Criticism).
A quarter of a century has passed since I began the transition that brought me to my present perspective. But now I find myself faced with a conundrum. This conundrum revolves around both sources of frustration that I experienced in the mid-1980s.
First, I have been thrust into a position of leadership. It is not a very big or important position, but I do bear responsibility for the ministry of a seminary. I would like to lead that seminary according to the perspectives that I have gleaned over twenty-five years’ worth of struggle. Having rejected authoritarian and abusive models of Fundamentalist leadership, however, I cannot simply enforce my perspectives upon the institution. New Testament leaders must not use tools of coercion. They are limited to tools of persuasion.
I have been surprised to discover a widespread assumption that to be a Fundamentalist leader is ipso facto to be authoritarian and abusive. This means that I am often assumed to be, and occasionally accused of being, the very things that I most despise. For some people, there seems to be no possible evidence that would contradict this assumption.
Let me be perfectly clear about my own leadership. There are times when I lead badly and times when I lead sinfully. But when these behaviors are pointed out to me, I take them to be sins of which I must repent. Far from endorsing such modes of leadership, I wish to do all that I rightly can to undermine them, both in myself and in my peers. At the least, I want to communicate a different model of leadership to a future generation of churchmen.
Christian leadership is persuasion, but occasions for persuasion are far less common than one might assume. Most of a president’s life is taken up with administrative bustle. Even if he is also a teacher, he does not get to focus simply on the areas that most interest him. Overworked employees are understandably resistant to the suggestion that they might do extra reading or otherwise prepare for extra conversations. Constituencies are alert for any idea that seems unusual. Gatekeepers of churches and other institutions are watchful for any remark that might be construed as a criticism. I have about concluded that institutional presidency is the worst position from which to attempt to propagate ideas. Presidents have less freedom to say what they think, and they are granted less opportunity to say it, than almost anyone else.
There is another side to my conundrum. By the mid-1980s, the weakness of fundamentalist argumentation had convinced me that certain “cultural taboos” were trivial. In some cases they really were. My subsequent study and thinking, however, has led me to believe that all cultural activities are far more freighted with meaning than Fundamentalists (or most other evangelicals) have realized. We cannot insist with Kuyper that Christ claims every area as His own, but then treat certain areas as if they are unimportant.
In other words, many of the things that I once considered trivial, I now see as greatly significant. But when I try to explain my conclusions, many people seem to assume that I am just repeating the same, old Fundamentalist presentation that I rejected twenty-five years ago. In a way, I can understand. Some of my present positions do bear similarities to practices that some Fundamentalists have advocated. In most cases, however, my reasons diverge, and in all cases the process of reaching my conclusions has been entirely different.
The conundrum is this: how do you speak to people who are already convinced that they know what you think, and who have already rejected your conclusions because they do not accept arguments that you never intended to use anyway? Furthermore, how do you explain conclusions to people who lack even the categories to frame the questions?
The only place for sustained interaction over these questions is in the classroom. If they are to be discussed there, then something else will not be. Here is the greatest irony and the most pressing conundrum of all. In the effort to prioritize the kind of thinking and conversation that will lead students to grapple seriously with first things, I must choose not to offer some of the hands-on, practical training that I myself missed in my earliest years of ministry.
These conundrums are always humbling and sometimes humiliating. Here as everywhere the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. If there is one lesson to carry away, it is this: no seminary can teach a pastor everything he needs to know. The best that we can do is to equip him with a set of tools and habits that he can employ in his lifelong pursuit of learning and effectiveness.
An Hymne
Phineas Fletcher (1582-1650)
Drop, drop, slow tears,
And bathe those beauteous feet,
Which brought from heav’n
The news and Prince of Peace.
Cease not, wet eyes,
His mercies to entreat;
To crie for vengeance:
Sinne doth never cease.
In your deep floods
Drown all my faults and fears;
Nor let His eye see
Sinne, but through my tears.
This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
There are two broad schools of thought. First is what Bauder presented, the neo-Calvinist, Kuyperian, or transformational view of culture. Neo-Calvinists believe in two major tenets. First, the antithesis - there is such a complete disconnect between Christian and non-Christian that they will approach every matter, no matter how seemingly neutral or non-religious, from completely different presuppositions and so move in different directions. This introduces the second tenet: the world can be understood according to structure and direction. The world consists of many “structures,” spheres in which culture happens - art, science, law, etc. But because of the antithesis, Christians and non-Christians will always develop these structures in different directions. In the neo-Calvinist model, then, there can be no positive cooperation between Christian and non-Christian in any social structures or endeavors. There will be Christian schools and non-Christian schools, Christian science and non-Christian science, Christian literary criticism and non-Christian literary criticism, Christian public policy and non-Christian public policy. (Even within Christian structures there can be further ideological strain if those propagating them are not consistently Christian, that is, Reformed.) The goal, then, is to build up our own Christian structures and exert a “transformational” influence on the culture as people come to Christ through the gospel. In one school of neo-Calvinism, Christian Reconstructionism, the non-Christian society will eventually collapse under the weight of its own metaphysical and epistemological contradictions, and we Christians will pick up the pieces. Neo-Calvinists include Abraham Kuyper, Cornelius Van Til, Herman Dooyeweerd, and John Frame.
The other broad approach is the Two Kingdoms. I can’t comment as much on 2K theology, because I don’t know as much about it. Basically, it sees Christians as operating under dual citizenship, the kingdom of the world and the kingdom of God (church). These two kingdoms are not entirely separate, but we don’t expect the kingdom of the world to live under God’s rule the way the church does. There is a “natural law” that serves as the basis for Christian/non-Christian interaction. The focus is not on building rival structures or trying to create a Christian counter-culture, but rather living as strangers and pilgrims wherever we happen to be. It seems quite similar to me to Luther’s early writings. In any case, much of Reformed 2K theology is coming from Westminster Seminary California, which insists that 2K was in fact the Reformed position before neo-Calvinism remade Reformed theology in its own image. Proponents include…. the WSCAL faculty, especially David VanDrunen, and I’m not sure who else.
An article by Kevin DeYoung comparing the two: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/08/14/two-kingdom…
Here is an article by VanDrunen explaining the 2K position on “culture war”: http://www.kerux.com/documents/KeruxV11N1A4.asp
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
*I am, of course, talking about issues and not about doctrines. And they are often confused in fundamentalist circles!
Jon BellBucksport, ME"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
I think we are all frustrated at how little influence we have. If you think about, those of us called to leadership — even on a pastoral level — are burdened to influence others. We can’t influence enough, it seems. So, even if we underestimate our influence, it never can be enough.
I appreciated Charlie’s comments (which is not an unusual event; after all, I am a type C reformed :)) I lean more toward the 2 kingdom approach — it seems to me a natural, simpler, and less-european interpretation. Of course my views are somewhat influenced by the Jewish perspectives, an area of special interest to me.
I consider Dr. Bauder’s thoughtful writings one of the top highlights here at SI.
"The Midrash Detective"
Reformed theology does indeed offer more than one view of culture. In fact, it offers more than two. Machen is certainly not a Kuyperian “neo” (if ever a term was misapplied, that is it) Calvinist. You can find a survey of Reformed approaches in Henry Van Til’s fine volume, “The Calvinistic Concept of Culture.” Please note that this is NOT Cornelius Van Til.
What all Reformed views have in common is a recognition that none of culture is exempt from the Lordship of Christ. Culture is therefore never simply neutral. This Reformed position coheres nicely with a genuinely conservative perspective toward culture (conservative perspectives are articulated by such writers as Weaver and Eliot).
The two-kingdom theory is more prevalent in Lutheranism than it is in Reformed thought. It is the basis for the type that Niebuhr labeled “Christ and Culture in Paradox.” Yes, you can find Reformed thinkers who hold it. But even the two-kingdom theory does not exempt cultures from the lordship of Christ. It simply notes that some cultures, and some cultural phenomena, reject that lordship, and it insists that the church does not possess authority to impose the lordship of Christ upon all humans. This theory does solve certain problems, and it reinforces the (in my opinion, correct) doctrine of the spirituality of the church. In other words, it puts an end to theocracy.
All of that, however, is subordinate to the question, Who has the right to say what is good and bad, within cultures as much as within theology or personal ethics? The answer to this question can only be, Jesus Christ.
Jon,
This is precisely the answer that I can no longer accept. All of our activities and all of our cultures are subject to the lordship of Christ. Scripture has something to say about all of these things. Our problem is that we are not skillful in applying Scripture to the questions that we face. Because we are not skillful, but we nevertheless prefer to think of ourselves as spiritual and mature, we begin to pontificate that Scripture has no principles for certain situations.
Again, the problem lies in applications, and applications depend upon second premises. This is not merely a cultural problem. A correct second premise is as crucial for doctrines and morals as it is for cultural applications. Consider the following doctrinal argument:
Christ died for all humans.
John is a human.
Therefore, Christ died for John.
The argument is formally valid, but its soundness depends upon the truth of the second premise. Is John genuinely a human? What if he turns out to be a chimp? This is a question that no amount of exegesis will answer. We may get a definition of humanity from Scripture, but even if we do, we can apply it to John only after we have actually inspected him. In other words, the application of this doctrine relies upon an extra-biblical source of information.
The Bible is still our sole authority, but unless we have some extra-biblical information about John, we cannot apply the authority of Scripture. This is the case with virtually all doctrines as well as all moral demands.
Bill is married to Hillary, but he has been having an affair with Monica. Under oath, however, he swears that he “did not have sex with that woman,” meaning Monica. His rationale? “Having sex” means sexual intercourse, and he and Monica have only ever engaged in oral sex. Therefore, he reasons, he is not guilty of adultery.
Should Hillary buy Bill’s argument? Of course not. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is certainly a command that Bill has violated. But we can apply the command only if we have some accurate understanding of what adultery includes, and so far as I know the Bible never gives a specific rubric for dealing with Bill’s situation. We must have some extra-biblical definition, some extra-biblical source of information.
The case is the same with matters of music, dress, ornamentation, etc. The Bible definitely articulates principles that apply to these phenomena. Our skill at applying those principles, however, will be directly related to our ability to articulate second premises that are true.
From the beginning of my intellectual journey until now, little has been added to my overall understanding of Scripture (though plenty of details have been filled in). The Bible was perspicuous enough for me to understand it in 1986. What I lacked was the ability to assert true second premises with confidence. My journey has been a matter of discovering how to think at the level of the second premise: how to understand, weigh, critique, judge, and choose among the various proposals.
What I find is that within American evangelicalism, including fundamentalism, there is a profound obscurantism when it comes to dealing with second premises. There seems to be an idea that, as long as we have read the Bible, we know all that we need to know in order to make wise and just applications. The result is an evangelical world that has begun to resemble a cross between a circus and a rather bumptuous auction. Disaster is occurring at the theological, moral, and cultural levels.
If we cannot think seriously about second premises, then we shall be powerless to halt those who pervert them. Consider the contemporary evangelical argument for homosexuality, i.e., that what the Bible forbids is not the same thing as the homosexual relationship of today. If you can’t deal with second premises, this argument is going to steamroll right over you.
Evangelicals in general, and fundamentalists in particular, have proven themselves to be exceptionally obtuse at dealing with second premises. Their ham-handedness becomes overt hysteria the moment that a second premise threatens some source of gratification for their appetites. And that, as much as anything else, is why we have worship wars.
[Kevin T. Bauder] The only place for sustained interaction over these questions is in the classroom. If they are to be discussed there, then something else will not be. Here is the greatest irony and the most pressing conundrum of all. In the effort to prioritize the kind of thinking and conversation that will lead students to grapple seriously with first things, I must choose not to offer some of the hands-on, practical training that I myself missed in my earliest years of ministry.This is exactly why churches need to take the responsibility upon themselves to train their own men for ministry, rather than just sending them off to Bible College or Seminary. I’m not against Bible College or Seminary, but for too long we have counted on them to do far too much.
The local church setting is the best place (the only place?) to learn this “hands-on, practical training.”
[Kevin T. Bauder] The only place for sustained interaction over these questions is in the classroom.Isn’t sharperiron another place where such sustained interaction could take place? Granted, the type of interaction is different, but the audience is probably larger and the experiences and views are more varied. I believe that this sort of discussion is at or near the core purpose of sharperiron.
Rick Franklin Gresham, Oregon Romans 8:38-39
[Kevin T. Bauder]Thanks for your further comments, Dr. Bauder. Are you saying that we should develop and teach rigid guidelines for music, dress, movies, etc? I should clarify my earlier comment: I think there is certainly a place to say to a brother/sister who is consistently taking in everything the world offers with little or no discernment, “You are being worldly.” Like many things we think in terms of the tails of the Bell curve. We all know what a very worldly christian looks like and we all know what a super-seperated christian looks like but the trouble is all the people inside the first standard deviation. I know people who are really striving to live out the gospel in their lives and to be light in a dark world and they don’t want to be worldly but they come to different conclusions than me about cultural issues. So it seems to me that while we can discuss the issues within the body of our local church and teaching principles, can we expect that everyone will apply the principles identically?
Jon,
This is precisely the answer that I can no longer accept. All of our activities and all of our cultures are subject to the lordship of Christ. Scripture has something to say about all of these things. Our problem is that we are not skillful in applying Scripture to the questions that we face. Because we are not skillful, but we nevertheless prefer to think of ourselves as spiritual and mature, we begin to pontificate that Scripture has no principles for certain situations.
Jon BellBucksport, ME"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
[Brian Jo]The strength of any college or seminary is that (hopefully) there are people there from many places and multiple backgrounds. There should be an orthodox latitude in views that provides us with a broader horizon than we may get within a church. I am aware that some bible colleges reverse this and are more provincial than many churches and end up teaching students only one way of thinking about key issues. The goal of all true christian liberal arts education should (by definition) be broad exposure within a christian worldview.[Kevin T. Bauder] The only place for sustained interaction over these questions is in the classroom. If they are to be discussed there, then something else will not be. Here is the greatest irony and the most pressing conundrum of all. In the effort to prioritize the kind of thinking and conversation that will lead students to grapple seriously with first things, I must choose not to offer some of the hands-on, practical training that I myself missed in my earliest years of ministry.This is exactly why churches need to take the responsibility upon themselves to train their own men for ministry, rather than just sending them off to Bible College or Seminary. I’m not against Bible College or Seminary, but for too long we have counted on them to do far too much.
The local church setting is the best place (the only place?) to learn this “hands-on, practical training.”
Jon BellBucksport, ME"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
[Bauder] The only place for sustained interaction over these questions is in the classroom. If they are to be discussed there, then something else will not be. Here is the greatest irony and the most pressing conundrum of all. In the effort to prioritize the kind of thinking and conversation that will lead students to grapple seriously with first things, I must choose not to offer some of the hands-on, practical training that I myself missed in my earliest years of ministry.Maybe this issue is deeper though.
Most see classroom time as a time of lecture—teacher giving out knowledge and students receiving. But grappling with questions like this requires a vulnerability that most classrooms (i.e., teachers, seminaries) are not willing to risk. It even requires levels of exposure and discernment that most schools aren’t willing to admit.
It also requires that students themselves actually be internally wrestling with these issues to some extent, rather than having a typical, receptive-learner-oriented classroom experience. But how can a teacher lead students to actually make these questions the internal questions of their students at that time in life? And very few of them bring to the classroom the breadth of life experience and even openness needed for honest thinking. I am a much, much different student today than I was 15 yrs ago. And it’s basically because of my life experiences.
Also:
[Bauder] The conundrum is this: how do you speak to people who are already convinced that they know what you think, and who have already rejected your conclusions because they do not accept arguments that you never intended to use anyway? Furthermore, how do you explain conclusions to people who lack even the categories to frame the questions?This is also almost impossible to address in a classroom situation. Opening someone’s heart to truly listen to and consider your words usually requires first demonstrating that you will listen to their words and perspective to some extent. Getting a person’s heart really open to hearing is usually not even considered. But truly, it is essential to really touch another person. Can that be done in the classroom? Well, yes, but with risk. And a college has to be willing to be open for that risk, for examlpe, that “shocking” things might be said, though honestly. And that stories of so and so said this or that or promoted this or that idea will float around the world.
anyway, …
Dr. Bauder stated:
“What I find is that within American evangelicalism, including fundamentalism, there is a profound obscurantism when it comes to dealing with second premises. There seems to be an idea that, as long as we have read the Bible, we know all that we need to know in order to make wise and just applications. The result is an evangelical world that has begun to resemble a cross between a circus and a rather bumptuous auction. Disaster is occurring at the theological, moral, and cultural levels.
If we cannot think seriously about second premises, then we shall be powerless to halt those who pervert them. Consider the contemporary evangelical argument for homosexuality, i.e., that what the Bible forbids is not the same thing as the homosexual relationship of today. If you can’t deal with second premises, this argument is going to steamroll right over you.
Evangelicals in general, and fundamentalists in particular, have proven themselves to be exceptionally obtuse at dealing with second premises. Their ham-handedness becomes overt hysteria the moment that a second premise threatens some source of gratification for their appetites. And that, as much as anything else, is why we have worship wars.”
This is a good and true observation.
As an example, this is the basis for the argument against those who embrace “Nouthetic Counseling.” They simply do not adequately deal with the second premise application of scripture which requires the study, and acceptance or rejection, of truth from Psychology and Psychiatry. Of course it must be recognized that sources outside of scripture are fallen sources, that is they are subject to fallen men discovering and interpreting. However, while scripture gives us truth as an unfallen source, it is also always interpreted by fallen men, However, the Christian does have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit working on and within the still fallen soul.
Some Fundamentalists and conservative Evangelicals have taken a largely exclusive view of truth as applied to man’s problems. A false inclusive view of the sufficiency of scripture is often set forth which avoids the true nature of the second premise application of scripture and the possible need to integrate outside truth as part of the application. This often results in the misapplication of scripture by ignoring the original intent. This is seeking to find a principle to stand alone where non is there. The application itself then becomes extra biblical. Nouthetic counseling has become the shield behind which many can hide without making the difficult applications required by the second premise application. It allows the avoidance of the study of outside truth and even the awarding of degrees in counseling without adequate awareness of of Psychology and Psychiatry. This can result in a paranoia of information from outside scripture even though it is not contrary to scripture. An example is the term “mental illness” which is falsely rejected because the mind is viewed as immaterial. For all the years of their study they still have not differentiated between mental which is the process of the Brain and mind and the immaterial concept of the mind. The result is some of their writings still talking of the myth of “mental illness.” They have a totally false concept of Biblical anthropology because of an aversion to proper second premise truth which adequately deals with outside truth.
The Christian world view must recognize the absolute nature of first premise scriptural truth while recognizing the necessary complexity of some second premise applications. This applies to the concepts of church and state, individual responsibility for decisions in handling truth in different situations, and acceptance of extra biblical truth in dealing with practical problems. We know of the extreme false world view that has caused a few to reject medical treatment as contrary to faith. We usually readily recognize the wrong second premise conclusions there but then fail to recognize such errors in other key areas.
Please do not let me get this thread off track. I just felt such an application was somewhat relevant to the overall discussion as it has developed.
Great article. Wow. I actually understand some of the tension you speak of here. If anyone has done a good job of living with the tension with grace, you have. I love the part where you talk about people having made up their minds on you before you have a chance to speak. That was a great line. Thanks for your thoughts! As always, very helpful. Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
I’m amazed that, on the verge of hosting a major conference in your church, you can find time even to read this stuff, let alone reply!
You and the other men at the Standpoint Conference are in my prayers. I am hoping that much good will come of it. There are some sessions that I’d very much like to hear.
Maybe I can listen to the recordings afterward.
Kevin
Time? Wow. Wish I could make some extra.
Thanks my brother. I’m thrilled that we can do this. It will be encouraging to our folks to hear the guys share on the various topics. I’m sure we’ll make the presentations available. Grateful we’ve been able to get these guys. Maybe we’ll do this again in the future and build on what we do here. We’ll see.
Straight Ahead!
Joel
ps - great having your folks with us on Sunday. They look great…..they are great. Praying for your fam!
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
[Ed Vasicek]I second that.
I consider Dr. Bauder’s thoughtful writings one of the top highlights here at SI.
[RPittman] I wonder how the Reformed view of culture squares with Premillennial views and Dispensationalism? Many who hold a Reformed view of culture are Postmillennial or Amillennial in eschatology and are not Dispensational.That depends on a lot of assumptions, such as what sort of cultural views (if any) are necessarily implied by certain theological systems. I would venture to say that although certain eschatological views may render some cultural attitudes more plausible (and vice versa), cultural views are determined by multiple factors and cannot be explained by eschatology.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
http://sharperiron.org/eschatology-and-cultural-engagement
This one might also relate somewhat: http://sharperiron.org/those-pesky-premillennialists
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
So a vague beginning of an answer to your question would be that in many particular cases where believers “do something” to improve the world they live in, a Premillennialist w/something close to “the Reformed” view of culture vs. an amill. or postmill. (who believes the gospel!) would do exactly the same thing. Often there would be no difference at all in how they behave. Sometimes there would be, and often there would be differences in the rationale when you connect the idea of “Lordship of Christ over culture” to the idea of Kingdom and the End of age.
I don’t know if that helps any. I’m sure my view on it isn’t nearly as deeply rooted and broadly informed as KB’s, but it looks to me like they are otherwise very similar.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Then too, I also wonder why no one else has had this same question. Surely those who have posted comments are at least slightly acquainted with neo-orthodoxy and the its men.
I understand that there are times when we must wade into the writings of men such as Niebuhr, but when we are at a crisis in our own understanding of Biblical issues as Dr. Bauder has made clear in this article?
While this article has answered some questions for me in relation to Dr. Bauder, it has also created another.
Yes, there are “safer”—and probably better—sources for that info for most of us, but when a guy decides he is no longer willing to take others’ word for it, he goes to the primary source. Nothing wrong with that.
I’d add that it’s evident, in retrospect, that what God was doing was making a leader out of KB, and leaders are—on the whole—not the ones who get their knowledge second hand. They are the second hand the rest of us go to. They get it themselves as directly as possible. (The only way any of us knows that Neibuhr was seriously off is that somebody read him and told us… and we have taken their word for it. But it’s also clear that neither of the Niebuhrs were seriously off about everything. For example, both Reinhold and H. Richard were eventually penetrating critics of social gospel liberalism)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
In response to Pastor Danny Sweatt’s Southeast Regional message, Dr. Bauder mentioned his own background in fundamentalism in a response entitled, TIME TO SPEAK UP dated May 15, 2009:
“I am grateful to have been reared in a version of fundamentalism that was led by men who refused to become ‘giants.’ You have probably never heard their names, because they were not trying to create or control empires. They were willing to stand up to bullies, however, and in some cases they were savaged by the very ‘giants’ whom Pastor Sweatt identifies. They were men of faith and strength, but also men of kindness and gentleness. They were genuinely and biblically meek. They fought the battles of their day, but they did it for the most part without losing the sweetness of their spirits or the freshness of their walk with Christ. They were honest and fair and charitable, but they had backbone when they needed it. They revered the Word of God, and when they preached, they delighted to expound the Scriptures. As a young man I wanted to be like those leaders, and I still do. I chose their fundamentalism because it was a fundamentalism worth saving.”
Secondly, In a Sharper Iron essay, FUNDAMENTALISM: WHENCE?, WHERE?, WHITHER?: part 1 Things have changed, dated Oct. 16, 2009, Dr. Bauder wrote:
“Before proceeding, expressions of gratitude are in order. Certain individuals shaped my vision of fundamentalism in powerful ways. George Houghton gave me my first lessons as a student of fundamentalism, and to his analysis I remain deeply indebted. David Nettleton showed me that a fundamentalist could be both cultured and compassionate—and, more importantly, could lead as a statesman rather than a politician. Robert Delnay demonstrated that a fundamentalist could exhibit both broad learning and deep piety. William Fusco exhibited a version of fundamentalist leadership that was wrapped in gentleness and love. Myron Houghton modeled a fundamentalism that was devoted to the life of the mind.”
In this second quote, Dr. Bauder speaks in fond terms of those who taught him in his early days of his extensive college training, yet here in his conundrum which goes back to his early years he casts a very different tone toward fundamentalism. In the two articles I quote from, Dr. Bauder has said that in those early days he had already formed a disparaging view of certain forms of fundamentalism which in this article he seems to indicate was the cause of his crisis. I am still left wondering. I appreciate Dr. Bauder’s honesty in telling us his conundrum, but why go to the fog that is neo-orthodoxy for answers when he has the Bible, as it were, right there in front of him?
Bauder mentioned a number of men from many different religious perspectives, and his term relating to Niebuhr was “a prolonged encounter.” This is an appropriate phrase for someone seeking to explore deeply a system of thought. It does not mean that Bauder was abandoning his Fundamentalism and latching on to some other theology.
When you say that the answers are in the Bible, no one here would dispute that in an ultimate sense. Yet, whenever we move to apply Scripture, we need an appropriate knowledge of the object to which we are applying it. If you are suggesting that seeking outside the Bible for knowledge is wrong (and I don’t think you are suggesting that), then that is simply anti-intellectualism and an incorrect view of Biblical sufficiency. If you are suggesting that reading experts in their fields is wrong if they are not “one of us,” that too is anti-intellectualism and an incorrect view of scholarship. It would also lead to a very revisionist understanding of Fundamentalism. The early Fundamentalists were well informed about non-evangelical scholarship and interacted with it critically and constantly. If you are suggesting that plenty of Fundamentalists had deeply analyzed the issue of culture so that Bauder unnecessarily turned to other sources, you are simply wrong. Fundamentalist writing on culture is a wasteland. If some does exist, it hardly compares to the work done by non-Fundamentalists, especially by the Reformed or Catholic.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
[Charlie] Brian, I fail to see any cause for concern in Bauder’s writing. Anyone seriously interested in Christianity and culture reads the Niebuhrs because they were profound thinkers about the issue. Anyone seriously interested in medieval philosophy reads Etienne Gilson. Anyone seriously interested in the origins of protestant thought reads Heiko Oberman.Charlie, I think you are entirely missing Brian’s point, which makes the balance of your post irrelevant.
If I understand Brian correctly, he is suggesting that Bauder isn’t merely expressing interest in certain subjects which require the expertise (alleged or otherwise) of the Niebuhrs et al, but that Bauder went to these sources in his search for answers to questions that were shaking him at a foundational level.
Bauder does say that what he found useful was Niebhur’s categories, especially because of their incoherence.
[Kevin Bauder] Niebuhr’s categories were useful to me, but they became more useful when I realized the fundamental incoherence of Niebuhr’s typology. Eventually, a modified appropriation of Niebuhr became a powerful engine for critiquing various approaches to culture.To be fair to Bauder, he may be simply saying that as he was wrestling with foundational questions, he found helpful ideas along the way from unusual sources. But one could also conclude that he sought out these unusual sources deliberately in his pursuit of answers to his questions.
[Kevin Bauder] It may seem surprising that a pastor writing for his doctorate would be asking such questions, but there I was. Although I had begun to move toward answers that would lead to a fairly radical reorganization of my understanding, I was very uncertain of my conclusions, and I felt that I could not ask a church to wait for me while I tried to find answers. I left my pastorate in order to seek answers in another doctoral program.Regardless, as described, Bauder’s journey seems a rather curious and circuitous route to arrive at fundamentalist convictions.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
I greatly enjoy the article and agree with the tensions we must deal with. Much of our problems often stem from the hallway theology in seminary, and the hallway sermons at our churches. My question arises out of your use of your syllogism. All syllogism require that the premises are truthful, the major often determined by our paradigms. My question comes of how did the second premise apply in the Hillary/Bill argument? Bill’s defense is not one of logic but a subterfuge of redefining the terms. A far more sinister method to winning one’s point. Hillary/Congress/the Supreme Court need only correct the parameters of the terms in use to show that the argument is NOT sound. But the illustration is not parallel to the initial argument. What are the first premise and second premise of the argument? I was totally lost at that point and having trouble drawing conclusions, which several seem to have found using this methodology.
I would also like to question, if we are to build upon this logic, at what point do we accept that the second premise is true? Once John is a Chimp, we disallow the application of Christ sacrifice. Once he is found to be a man; Christ died for him. What amount of proof do we demand? No amount of exegesis qualifies that question either. Exactly how am I to apply the quandary of the second premise to doctrine and its application?
He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent. - Augustine
but why go to the fog that is neo-orthodoxy for answers when he has the Bible, as it were, right there in front of him?Reading Niebuhr isn’t the same as “going to the fog that is neo-orthodoxy.”
I don’t know, maybe I need to re-read and see if I can find something I missed.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Charlie, you are correct, I am not saying that seeking knowledge outside the Bible is wrong. But you miss the point entirely. Dr. Bauder is not “researching” the issue of Christianity and culture for a series of sermons for church or a class in seminary. He is admittedly facing a crisis on a foundational level. As such, my question still stands, why would you go looking for answers in the writings of neo-orthodxy? These men are apostates, denying the very foundational things you and I and Dr. Bauder hold as true, Biblical Christians.
Aaron, when using the term “fog” in reference to neo-orthodoxy, I am drawing from memory of my Religious Trends class in preacher boys at BJU. I believe Dr. Beale taught that course. The “fog” has to do with the understanding that in neo-orthodoxy there are no absolutes, that everything is relative. Conservative sounding yes, but with different meanings.
[Aaron Blumer] I still don’t see the problem. Both Niebuhrs were brilliant men (their errors notwithstanding) and a discerning person doesn’t need much of an excuse to read them. As it stands, he had more than an excuse.Aaron, as I stated earlier, the question isn’t just a matter of reading Niebuhr. The question is how much influence have these (and others like them) had in influencing Bauder’s philosophy. He clearly states that he went to these sources (and others) at a point where he was sorting out his own philosophy. Rather than reading them for understanding in order to teach about them academically, or even pastorally, he appears to have gone to them to try to sort out his own questions.
Now he hasn’t said all of that explicitly, that’s why I use terms like “appears” and “seems”.
But as one who holds what could be called (I guess) a more typically fundamentalist viewpoint, Bauder’s expressions of his fundamentalist philosophy often are at best disquieting, and usually are alarming. You are about to publish on Monday an article by him that will go far further in exposing his disdain and broad-brushing of fundamentalism as a quiet back-water that isn’t doing all that much for the defense of the gospel. He is also going to say that conservative evangelicalism is where the action is in defending the gospel these days. He is going to deny that John Piper is a new evangelical.
It is astonishing to see a major fundamentalist leader articulating such views. Even his friend, Dave Doran, has to come out on the same day [URL=http://gloryandgrace.dbts.edu/?p=276] criticising Bauder’s article[/URL] and taking issue with his main points. (You can find a link to Bauder’s article in Dave’s article. I assume it will show up here at SI on Monday.)
It appears from this that Bauder’s position is at least on the leftish side of fundamentalism. The concern about the reading of the Niebuhrs et al the way Bauder appears to have read them is that one wonders if this ‘leftish-ness’ of Bauder’s position isn’t at least partly a result of the way Bauder has gone about getting his answers.
Interestingly, Dave makes this point about the conservative evangelicals in his article:
I made essentially the same point [URL=http://oxgoad.ca/2010/01/13/what-kind-of-c-are-you/ some weeks ago[/URL] , essentially asking what it is that the conservative evangelicals are conserving.
And if the full original agenda of new evangelicalism (as articulated, for instance, by Ockenga) is used as the standard, then I would suggest that many of these men and ministries are much closer to new evangelicalism than fundamentalism. IOW, they agree with the original vision and are intent on fulfilling it. The Gospel Coalition was very clear about its desire to do so. Russell Moore (of Southern) has written very aggressively in defense of Carl Henry’s views and the very title of the book seems to make his view clear—The Kingdom of Christ: The New Evangelical Perspective. Al Mohler too has written clearly in defense of the idea that evangelicals may engage in co-belligerence outside of gospel boundaries for the sake of social issues.
Anyway, to conclude, I don’t think it is a problem to read Niebuhr. I started his Christ and Culture some time back. I think it is interesting and perhaps important to try to understand what he is saying (although I don’t get the impression he is all that brilliant, just very pleased with himself and his long words). I haven’t finished the book (very ponderous and boring reading), but I am reading it to understand Niebuhr, not to understand myself. That would be the difference, and I think it is important.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
I don’t think it’s accurate at all to read the essay so that Bauder is saying “I thought Neo-orthodoxy might be better than orthodox Christianity so I went to Niebuhr to figure out my faith.” But even if that was what he meant, it would be fair to chalk up as a period of confusion and thank the Lord he got over it!
I’m not sure anybody fully owns his faith until it is shaken to its foundations at least once and at least briefly and he comes out on the other side of the experience with renewed and deepened conviction. There are many ways this can happen (1 Pet 1.6-7)—an intellectual crisis being one.
I don’t think the idea that Bauder is toward the left end of the Fundamentalist spectrum is in dispute. It sure won’t be after next Monday.;) But he’s been distinguishing himself from those further right for some time and also characterizing them as increasing in number. So, it follows that he sees himself as left of the majority.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer] I don’t think it’s accurate at all to read the essay so that Bauder is saying “I thought Neo-orthodoxy might be better than orthodox Christianity so I went to Niebuhr to figure out my faith.”Hi Aaron,
I want it to be crystal clear that I don’t think that’s what Bauder meant or thought at all.
Whatever concerns I have about Bauder or his approach, I don’t think he ever thought Neo-orthodoxy was better than orthodox Christianity.
[Aaron Blumer] I don’t think the idea that Bauder is toward the left end of the Fundamentalist spectrum is in dispute. It sure won’t be after next Monday.;)Yeah, I think this place will be hopping! The blogosphere is already buzzing!
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Whatever concerns I have about Bauder or his approach, I don’t think he ever thought Neo-orthodoxy was better than orthodox Christianity.Glad we got that straight!
I don’t think he meant to say he ever even considered that as a remote possibility, either. So whatever reading Niebuhr was about, it wasn’t that.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.


Discussion