Christians and Mythology (Part 6: Recovering)

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Jeremy Larson
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The series so far.

As many of us brought up in the Christian tradition can attest, there is a regrettable familiarity that comes from constant contact with Christianity. This includes everything from the order of service, to the songs we sing, and even to what we read in the Bible. As terrible as it feels to admit this, I don’t think I’m alone in saying that the force of the gospel wears off once in a while. Amazing grace is not so amazing the millionth time you’ve heard it. Speaking of this desensitizing, Bradley Birzer writes that there are many “things we have taken for granted or which have become commonplace.”1

This is not because we have fallen away as apostates, but it is hapless condition of human beings: We need constant refreshing and reminding that we are the recipients of a truly amazing inheritance. Meeting weekly as a body of believers is one way to remind us of the riches that we have in Christ, but repetition doesn’t always do the trick.

In 1947 J.R.R. Tolkien’s essay “On Fairy-stories” appeared in a collection published by Oxford University Press. This essay put forth Tolkien’s vision for what fairy-stories2 were and what benefits they could bring to readers. One of his main points included the concept of “recovery.” According to Tolkien, we need to see things, not merely in addition (i.e., week after week), but from a new position. We are characters in a marvelous story, and Tolkien firmly believed that the creation and reading of fairy-stories could awaken us to the wonder of reality.

Tolkien describes this new sense of wonder as a “regaining of a clear view…. We need…to clean our windows; so that the things seen clearly may be freed from the drab blur of triteness or familiarity—from possessiveness.” Tolkien continues:

This triteness is really the penalty of “appropriation”3: the things that are trite, or (in a bad sense) familiar, are the things that we have appropriated, legally or mentally. We say we know them. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.

Recovery is a concept Tolkien borrowed from G.K. Chesterton (who himself had picked up the idea from Charles Dickens). One dim and cloudy day, Dickens saw the word mooreeffoc on the window of a door. It was a door he had passed many times, but he couldn’t recall having seen that word there before. However, it took him only a split second to realize that he was viewing the word “coffeeroom” from the other side of the pane.

This startling experience caused Dickens to stop and examine the door, something he would have otherwise had no cause to do. Just as we often do in church, with a ho-hum attitude we tend to look right past the “ordinary” things of life, from the miracle of our beating heart, to the fact that a god once walked among us.4 To use Tolkien’s wording, mooreeffoc “was used by Chesterton to denote the queerness of things that have become trite, when they are seen suddenly from a new angle.”5

Similarly, when literary critic Cleanth Brooks read the British Romantics, he noticed their “preoccupation with wonder—the surprise, the revelation which puts the tarnished familiar world in a new light”:

In his preface to the second edition of the Lyrical Ballads Wordsworth stated that his general purpose was “to choose incidents and situations from common life” but so to treat them that “ordinary things should be presented to the mind in an unusual aspect.” Coleridge was to state the purpose for him later, in terms which make even more evident Wordsworth’s exploitation of the paradoxical: “Mr. Wordsworth [purposed] to give the charm of novelty to things of every day, and to excite a feeling analogous to the supernatural, by awakening the mind’s attention from the lethargy of custom, and directing it to the loveliness and the wonders of the world before us …” Wordsworth, in short, was consciously attempting to show his audience that the common was really uncommon, the prosaic was really poetic.6

Because of the Fall, we do not see things as clearly as we should, and for Tolkien, the point of “recovery” was a “return and renewal of health”7—a sort of postlapsarian convalescence. It is true that in regeneration Christ removes the veil from our eyes (2 Cor. 3:16), but just as sanctification is a process, we have a need for a constant removing of the veil—not so much the veil of unbelief as the veil of familiarity. Russian Formalists might have called this process “defamiliarization”—that is, helping familiar ideas or objects appear in a new light.8

To aid in this veil-removal, Tolkien suggests that we “meet the centaur and the dragon, and then perhaps suddenly behold, like the ancient shepherds, sheep, and dogs, and horses—and wolves. This recovery fairy-stories help us to make.”9 C.S. Lewis also recognized the essential nature of “defamiliarization.” In one of his essays, he writes the following, describing our veils of familiarity as “watchful dragons”:

I thought I saw how stories of this kind [fairy tales] could steal past a certain inhibition which had paralysed much of my own religion in childhood. Why did I find it so hard to feel as one was told one ought to feel about God or about the sufferings of Christ? I thought the chief reason was that one was told one ought to. An obligation to feel can freeze feelings. And reverence itself did harm. The whole subject was associated with lowered voices; almost as if it were something medical. But supposing that by casting all these things into an imaginary world, stripping them of their stained-glass and Sunday school associations, one could make them for the first time appear in their real potency? Could one not thus steal past those watchful dragons? I thought one could.10

In his review of The Lord of the Rings, C.S. Lewis wrote, “This excursion into the preposterous sends us back with renewed pleasure to the actual.”11 Mythology is a form of reification—making something abstract more concrete or real.

While we’re talking about looking at things from another angle, let’s look at this issue itself from another angle. This fall I am teaching several sections of a freshman writing course at a community college. One of the standard pieces of writing advice I give to students is to write a draft well before the due date, and then give their brains time to forget about it. What often happens during last-minute “revision” is that the student skips over blatant mistakes because he reads what he thinks he wrote—what he meant to write. But when he comes back to the paper once his brain has relaxed and forgotten, he is able to analyze it, as if for the first time. This is why true “revision” (literally, “seeing again”) requires a kind of template reset.

I am not suggesting that we take a break from our Bible study or weekly church meetings. But I am suggesting that mythology can provide this template reset that is necessary to see life afresh with a childlike wonder. Tolkien says that “we need recovery,” and “a taste for [fairy-stories] may make us, or keep us, childish.”12 Even through our reading life we can recover our amazement of grace when we see it again for the first time.13

Notes

1 J.R.R. Tolkien’s Sanctifying Myth (Wilmington, DE: ISI Books, 2003), p. 38

2 Again, I am using a broad definition of mythology, which includes fantasy, fairy tales, etc.

3 Tolkien’s use of appropriation is different from my use of the word in Part 2.

4 Even the fact that I used a small g for God can make us think of, say, Greek gods. Our jaws would drop if we saw a Greek god walking among us, and that minor lettering change—far from trivializing Christ’s deity—can make us exclaim, with a new sense of astonishment, “Wow—it’s like that!”

5 All of the above Tolkien quotes are from “On Fairy-Stories” in The Tolkien Reader (New York: Del Rey, 1986), pp. 77-78.

6 “The Language of Paradox” in The Well-Wrought Urn (Orlando: Harcourt, 1970), p. 7

7 The Tolkien Reader, p. 77

8 Russian Formalists looked to Tolstoy as their ideal literary artist, a writer who uniquely stripped away the “automatic” feeling (one we often get while mindlessly driving a car) and jolted us into perceiving something familiar as if for the first time. See here for more on this “making strange”

9 The Tolkien Reader, p. 77. Similarly, G.K. Chesterton writes in Orthodoxy (New York: Random House, 2001; p. 51): “[Fairy] tales say that apples were golden only to refresh the forgotten moment when we found that they were green. They make rivers run with wine only to make us remember, for one wild moment, that they run with water.”

10 “Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What’s to be Said” in Of Other Worlds: Essays and Stories (New York: Harvest/HBJ, 1975), p. 37

11 Qtd. in Faerie Gold (Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R, 2005), p. 278

12 The Tolkien Reader, p. 77

13 http://andynaselli.com/see-it-again-for-the-first-time


Jeremy Larson earned a BA in creative writing (English minor) and an MA in English, both at Bob Jones University. He has taught high school and college English for several years, and he and his wife and daughter recently moved to Waco, TX, where he will begin PhD studies in English at Baylor University (with a dual concentration in religion and literature). He blogs occasionally at The Mundane Muse.

Aaron Blumer
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Antisupernatural Christians

Thanks for this thoughtful piece, Jeremy. Enjoyed it.

Reminded me of often, paradoxically, even Christians tend to be antisupernaturalists these days... it's the spirit of our times I guess.

In our men's Bible study we've been reading through the Bible and just reached Numbers 5. There's a law of the jealous husband there--for determining guilt or innocence of a wife he suspects of unfaithfulness when there are no witnesses and she denies it. There's a drinking of what we today would see simply as dirty water... water with dust from the tabernacle floor. And then if she's guilty something terrible happens and if innocent, nothing happens.

Tell me that doesn't initially strike you on some level as pagan and superstitious. But really it's our modern antisupernaturalist mind kicking in. The accused doesn't drink dirty water. She drinks water mixed w/the dust of the place with the shekinah hovering over it... dust from God's presence. The water is mixed with something more real than dust.

Anyway, sometimes I do wonder if the speculative fiction I enjoy reading is escapism from reality or, in a way, escaping to reality. Probably sometimes one, sometimes the other.

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Escape

Thanks for the comment. Yeah, that Numbers 5 passage is fascinating. I hope to cover escape a little more in the next part.

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The point about

The point about supernaturalism and Christians being anti-supernatural reminds me of this video clip from Doug Wilson on "Magic in Literature."

http://www.canonwired.com/ask-doug/magic-in-literature/

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Jeremy Larson
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Yes, and more

That's a great resource, Bob. Here are some other helpful places to look (with some overlap to your recommendation):

http://www.dougwils.com/Book-of-Samuel/the-witch-of-endor.html

http://themundanemuse.blogspot.com/2010/04/magic-in-literature.html

http://themundanemuse.blogspot.com/2011/11/wilson-and-magic.html

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I'm sure I'm in the extreme minority, but I struggle with the value of this type of literature at all. I don't see it endorsed (and I've read Bauder's series on it). I'm not convinced - at all. If we are to focus on "what is true" etc., and meditate on the Word day and night, what place does fiction have in our lives? I have a hard time saying Tolkien or Lewis, etc. have true value, or can capture something that is somehow lacking in the Word. How can extended fiction works (not Scriptural analogies or parables) produce something that the inspired Word cannot? I see no hint of this need from Scripture itself.

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A Tool

Kevin Subra wrote:

I'm sure I'm in the extreme minority, but I struggle with the value of this type of literature at all. I don't see it endorsed (and I've read Bauder's series on it). I'm not convinced - at all. If we are to focus on "what is true" etc., and meditate on the Word day and night, what place does fiction have in our lives? I have a hard time saying Tolkien or Lewis, etc. have true value, or can capture something that is somehow lacking in the Word. How can extended fiction works (not Scriptural analogies or parables) produce something that the inspired Word cannot? I see no hint of this need from Scripture itself.

 

The genre under discussion is a useful tool to to teach character traits such as courage, loyalty, strength of character (and more).

 

Where the Bible says "be of good courage" (and I by NO MEANS mean to indicate that the Bible in itself is insufficient in any way), the books of Tolkien present a character in such a way that many readers respond, "THAT's what a man of courage is like."

 

Remember, the Bible we read is written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. I am sure that, if we knew those languages fluently, and read Scriptural passages - especially the books of History, the Gospels, Acts... - in the original languages, they would be even more exciting than they are in our English translation.

 

On the other hand, there are many people who just don't like this type of literature. (Just as in food, my wife likes liver, and I don't.) There is nothing wrong with that, and I am not here to convince you that you should like this type of literature.

 

God be with us all, and help us to keep one-another sharp.

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Thoughts

Rev Karl wrote:
Where the Bible says "be of good courage" (and I by NO MEANS mean to indicate that the Bible in itself is insufficient in any way), the books of Tolkien present a character in such a way that many readers respond, "THAT's what a man of courage is like."

To me, this is a good example of the problem. Using unbiblical, man-generated sources to define Biblical ideas. Often the Bible defines things in ways that our own minds do not (Prov 3:5-6), such as being the least, being weak, etc.

Rev Karl wrote:
Remember, the Bible we read is written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. I am sure that, if we knew those languages fluently, and read Scriptural passages - especially the books of History, the Gospels, Acts... - in the original languages, they would be even more exciting than they are in our English translation.
I agree. Though I do not know why this would argue in any way for the use of fiction, rather than the increased focus on the Word.

Rev Karl wrote:
On the other hand, there are many people who just don't like this type of literature. (Just as in food, my wife likes liver, and I don't.) There is nothing wrong with that, and I am not here to convince you that you should like this type of literature.
Personal appreciation seems to be something not great enough to approve or disapprove of anything. It is our sinful tendency to live by our lusts, wanting and doing what pleases us, rather than what might please God.

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preaching

Kevin,

what role does preaching play? Isn't preaching more than simply restating the Biblical text? Doesn't it involve more than simple exegesis? I think it does. Good preaching doesn't speak where God has not spoken, but it is not simply reciting Scripture either.

Warren Wiersbe offers a thorough perspective on the use and exercise of our imagination in communicating biblical truth in his book "Preaching and Teaching with Imagination." In it he argues that we ought to be well read in order to effectively communicate God's Word with sensitivity to the needs of our congregation, and we can often benefit from seeing truth in a new light ourselves.

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Correlation

pvawter wrote:

Kevin,

what role does preaching play? Isn't preaching more than simply restating the Biblical text? Doesn't it involve more than simple exegesis? I think it does. Good preaching doesn't speak where God has not spoken, but it is not simply reciting Scripture either.

Warren Wiersbe offers a thorough perspective on the use and exercise of our imagination in communicating biblical truth in his book "Preaching and Teaching with Imagination." In it he argues that we ought to be well read in order to effectively communicate God's Word with sensitivity to the needs of our congregation, and we can often benefit from seeing truth in a new light ourselves.

I'm not sure how the comparison relates. Preaching is primarily explaining and applying a text. You know, "preach the Word" and "[teach] them to observe whatever I have commanded you." Preaching certainly would not be the telling of fictitious stories with vague correlations to the truth.

To be fair, I have not read Wiersbe's book. I certainly would be interested in knowing the basis for his premise. Jesus certainly used parables to illustrate a truth, but not a volume to weave in things like this series discusses.

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It seems that Paul and other

It seems that Paul and other biblical writers were familiar with extrabiblical literature.

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Extra Biblical material

Kevin Subra wrote:

I'm not sure how the comparison relates. Preaching is primarily explaining and applying a text. You know, "preach the Word" and "[teach] them to observe whatever I have commanded you." Preaching certainly would not be the telling of fictitious stories with vague correlations to the truth.

To be fair, I have not read Wiersbe's book. I certainly would be interested in knowing the basis for his premise. Jesus certainly used parables to illustrate a truth, but not a volume to weave in things like this series discusses.

Bro. Kevin,

 

Have you ever used an illustration not found in the Scriptures to explain the passage under discussion?

 

Have you ever used a visual aid not specifically described in Scripture to help people understand the Word?

 

Have you ever used a personal testimony of an experience to praise and worship the Lord? In the IFB churches I have been a part of, this has been an acceptable part of the ministry, but obviously it (our personal experience) is not found in Scripture.

 

All that being said, I would NEVER use an illustration out of the type of literature being discussed as an illustration in the pulpit. While Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, John Bunyan, and scores of others have written books which elaborate desireable character traits, the triumph of good over evil, etc., I would not use them in a sermon, or as a book study in a church setting.

 

God be with us all.

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Apples vs Oranges?

Rev Karl wrote:

Have you ever used an illustration not found in the Scriptures to explain the passage under discussion?

Have you ever used a visual aid not specifically described in Scripture to help people understand the Word?

Have you ever used a personal testimony of an experience to praise and worship the Lord? In the IFB churches I have been a part of, this has been an acceptable part of the ministry, but obviously it (our personal experience) is not found in Scripture.

All that being said, I would NEVER use an illustration out of the type of literature being discussed as an illustration in the pulpit. While Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, John Bunyan, and scores of others have written books which elaborate desireable character traits, the triumph of good over evil, etc., I would not use them in a sermon, or as a book study in a church setting.

To answer your three questions - yes. However, I think using "an illustration not found in Scripture" is missing the point of this series, and at least my argument. How does that relate to focusing on a large work of fiction (hence, is not true) that itself has to be interpreted? One is a self-standing, made-made work, not necessarily created for explaining (or even illustrating) truth. The other, the Word of God which we are commanded to learn, meditate upon (as opposed to other things like fiction?), and live.

God never included such works in Scripture. What did He miss by not doing so?

 

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Truth

Odd to see telling the truth pitted against fictional stories as though there was some kind of tension between them. Fictional stories tell the truth quite often. Jesus did it quite often in parables.

The burden of proof falls on the anti-fantasy position to show that fantasy fiction is different from parabolic fiction--sufficiently different to demonstrate that it cannot be a suitable vehicle for telling the truth.

I've read the Lord of the Rings twice. It did me a great deal of good as a teenager. There is much truth in it.  For starters, the beauty of heroic sacrifice, the allure of power, the danger of deception by degrees (Wormtongue vs. that king of Rohan guy), the danger of technology even when devised with good intentions (the whole ring saga), on and on it goes. It rings true (no pun intended) all over the place.

I have used these as sermon illustrations. Can't see any reason not to other than lack of familiarity with some of the audience--and then you have too much story telling to do. Other than that . . . if stories are good enough for Jesus, who am I to say they're unfit for the pulpit?

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Umm

Where are the "description does not prove prescription" people when you need them? (They're always on my case. ;>D)

I will suggest just a few of things:

  1. Nothing that Jesus used remotely resembles The Lord of the Rings. God wrote the majority of the Bible in chronology and prescription. He did not write us an allegory to decipher (we have enough trouble with clear revelation, don't we?).
  2. The Bible is inspired (including what Jesus said). That is a HUGE distinguishing characteristic from what you suggest. Apples versus [uninspired] oranges. Man's works are full of holes (Pilgrim's Progress has many of them, for example).
  3. Fictional works have no redeeming value whatsoever without accurate understanding of Scripture. It is open to major fallacy and pseudo-application. They also may be given more weight than their authors even intended.

I'm happy with the Bible as my source of truth. I'm glad to use illustrations, etc. but I will not lift up man's work to a level which is seen to somehow enhance Scripture (which it cannot do), nor distract people from what they should be meditating on by redirecting their attention to man's works.

Oh, and I prefer the term "pro-Bible," rather than anti-fantasy (would I be fair to call it the "anti-revelation" position?). ;>D

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Clarification, if you please.

Bro. Kevin,

 

Is the basis of your comment(s) on this thread that believers should no make use of *any* non-scriptural source material for any reason? Not for personal relaxation? Not to be read in the five minutes waiting for the bus? Are we to avoid newspapers and news magazines? Are we to avoid political information? Are we to avoid reading material dealing with current sin/social issues in our country? Are we to avoid the internet? (Are we to avoid SI? After all, there is nothing in the Scriptures dealing with believers blogging.)

 

What is the scope of your comments? Is it Universal?

 

Just thought that would help us understand where you are coming from.

 

God bless us all.

 

 

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Quality Fiction

The best fiction does tell the truth. The setting may be futuristic or other-worldly, but when it isn't consistent with what we know to be true about the human condition, we feel that and reject it as being of poor quality.

That is, unless one has the IQ of a cabbage. There's plenty of that going around, but those folks aren't reading the Bible anyway.

Fiction is also a way to experience a life other than one's own, and gain perspective from another POV. It is an enjoyable way to learn about other cultures and times. We can exercise critical thinking by deconstructing themes and metaphors.

However- reading fiction doesn't help me understand the Bible any better. The work of the Holy Spirit is what interprets and guides and informs my understanding of Scripture.

On a side note, just because a book is in the nonfiction section doesn't make it factual. One of my favorite authors is Neil deGrasse Tyson, and it's safe to say that much of what he writes is either theoretical or pure fantasy. I can say that I gain an appreciation for the complexities of the universe by reading his stuff though.

People spend their 'down time' doing something. Reading has a quantifiable, beneficial, physical effect on the mind and body, and is a healthy way to spend time relaxing. If reading fiction develops the intellect, it is a worthwhile endeavor.

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I will not. . . distract

I will not. . . distract people from what they should be meditating on by redirecting their attention to man's works.

Do you read non-Biblical story books to your kids?

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Scope

Rev Karl wrote:

Is the basis of your comment(s) on this thread that believers should no make use of *any* non-scriptural source material for any reason? Not for personal relaxation? Not to be read in the five minutes waiting for the bus? Are we to avoid newspapers and news magazines? Are we to avoid political information? Are we to avoid reading material dealing with current sin/social issues in our country? Are we to avoid the internet? (Are we to avoid SI? After all, there is nothing in the Scriptures dealing with believers blogging.)

What is the scope of your comments? Is it Universal?

Just thought that would help us understand where you are coming from.

I think I have answered your first question already. I believe the scope of this is an affirmation of fictional works as a means of teaching (and even study - hey we're on part SIX of this series). The series, if I can gather it to some degree (I've only read this part) lauds the writing and use of fiction as a means of teaching the truth. I see nowhere in the Bible that this is commanded, encouraged, or illustrated (I've already stated that they no way resemble parables). We quote Tolkien, Chesterton, Cleanth, and Lewis to prove our points, but not the Bible. Why? Isn't that supporting the greatness and use of extra-biblical writings by extra-biblical writings? If the Bible doesn't present this as a practice, encourage this as a practice, or present Itself in such a way, on what basis should I pursue it? I have not seen anywhere in Scripture where I am to write such things or study the works of others in order to know God or His Word better.

Is it wrong to read newspapers? Any other sources? That is not the scope of the discussion. I read this article, so I think you can answer many of these questions on your own. I do not read newspapers (OK, news web sites, etc.) to understand the Bible. I do read the Bible to help me have a right understanding of what I read in newspapers, etc.

Is it wrong to read [insert your list]? I would answer by saying that we are commanded to meditate on the Word day and night (Psalm 1:1-3; Psalm 119; Joshua 1:8-9, etc.). Does the Word forbid other reading [I'm a non-fiction guy myself...]? No (you didn't mention STOP signs...). It does, though, place a preeminent focus and priority of time upon the Word of God. If we are experts in [name your fictional novel, past time, sports event, movie character, etc.] and not the Bible, that should indicate a wrong focus, wouldn't you say? If we do not meditate on the Word, however you decide to reason through it, we have ceased to focus upon what God has indeed told us to fix our attention upon.

The Word does say that it is complete, and able to complete us for every good work. That sounds wholly sufficient to me. For someone to say that we need some method of writing outside of the Word seems to diminish the Word.

Hope this helps.

 

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Yes

DavidO wrote:

I will not. . . distract people from what they should be meditating on by redirecting their attention to man's works.

Do you read non-Biblical story books to your kids?

Yes. (Are you going to tell me Dr. Seuss was written to teach us the Bible? I do not claim that, nor is that the scope of these articles, from what I can discern.)

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I'm a Cabbage :?D

Susan R wrote:

The best fiction does tell the truth. The setting may be futuristic or other-worldly, but when it isn't consistent with what we know to be true about the human condition, we feel that and reject it as being of poor quality.

That is, unless one has the IQ of a cabbage. There's plenty of that going around, but those folks aren't reading the Bible anyway.

Fiction is also a way to experience a life other than one's own, and gain perspective from another POV. It is an enjoyable way to learn about other cultures and times. We can exercise critical thinking by deconstructing themes and metaphors.

However- reading fiction doesn't help me understand the Bible any better. The work of the Holy Spirit is what interprets and guides and informs my understanding of Scripture.

On a side note, just because a book is in the nonfiction section doesn't make it factual. One of my favorite authors is Neil deGrasse Tyson, and it's safe to say that much of what he writes is either theoretical or pure fantasy. I can say that I gain an appreciation for the complexities of the universe by reading his stuff though.

People spend their 'down time' doing something. Reading has a quantifiable, beneficial, physical effect on the mind and body, and is a healthy way to spend time relaxing. If reading fiction develops the intellect, it is a worthwhile endeavor.

I would like to see you present your arguments / support your statements from Scripture. I can put any number of 'down time' activites in your paragraph in place of reading and justify most anything from your logic.

If you argue that reading helps us learn to think, helps our imagination, stimulates our thinking, I'm on board. Fiction is not inspired, and often clouds or distorts reality rather than reinforces it. Whether or not I can do it a great deal and still mediate on God's Word, or think on things that are true is another argument.

H. Norman Schwarzkopf said in the introduction to his autobiography that there is enough fiction in non-fiction as it is... ;>D

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Susan R wrote: Reading has a

Susan R wrote:

Reading has a quantifiable, beneficial, physical effect on the mind and body, and is a healthy way to spend time relaxing.

 

Just curious how reading benefits the body?  I understand the mind, imagination and intellect, just not clear about how reading in of itselfs does to benefit the body.  Sure you can relax while doing it but that doesn't mean the reading is beneficial to the body, but the relaxation that is beneficial.

 

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@ Bro. Subra

Kevin Subra wrote:
I would like to see you present your arguments / support your statements from Scripture. I can put any number of 'down time' activities in your paragraph in place of reading and justify most anything from your logic.

If you argue that reading helps us learn to think, helps our imagination, stimulates our thinking, I'm on board. Fiction is not inspired, and often clouds or distorts reality rather than reinforces it. Whether or not I can do it a great deal and still mediate on God's Word, or think on things that are true is another argument.

H. Norman Schwarzkopf said in the introduction to his autobiography that there is enough fiction in non-fiction as it is... ;>D

I don't understand what you are objecting to, but maybe I can clear some things up.

First, I don't believe one can put 'any number of activities' in place of reading, since 'any number of activities' are already dealt with specifically in their own right. IOW, you can't substitute 'getting drunk' or 'torturing puppies'. You could, I suppose, substitute another allowable activity, such as golf or checkers or building a tree fort or knitting sweaters, as all these things are not only allowable, but have actual physical or mental benefits. Just don't use the knitting needles to stab your mother-in-law. 

I did not say or imply that fiction is inspired. I do not equate reading fiction to reading Scripture. Perhaps you missed the part where I said "...reading fiction doesn't help me understand the Bible any better. The work of the Holy Spirit is what interprets and guides and informs my understanding of Scripture."

Reading the Bible informs our lives- our relationships, our vocations, our ministries, our recreation, not the other way around. I don't propose nor would I agree with anything said to the contrary. I don't read fiction to refresh my mind, I read the Bible to refresh and readjust my thinking. 

Reading fiction can be a good thing if we treat this activity with the same thoughtfulness and purpose with which we should endeavor to approach everything, even relaxation. Perhaps I should say especially relaxation, which is when we tend to let our guard down.  "Relax" doesn't have to mean 'vegging out' or dropping our moral boundaries.

Benefits of reading include reducing stress, increasing mental acuity, broadening the vocabulary, improving writing skills, sharpening the memory, and there are studies that indicate it can slow the progress of the mental deterioration we experience as we age. These are all positive things that are beneficial in every area of our lives. 

Bro. Subra- you are obviously not in danger of becoming coleslaw. You know the difference between Herman Melville and E. L. James. I am certainly NOT advocating that every book in the universe is equally useful, informative, or of the same literary quality. 

 

 

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Late and maybe redundant, but . . . .

Got behind so this might be repetitive. But anyway....

Kevin Subra wrote:
Where are the "description does not prove prescription" people when you need them? (They're always on my case. ;>D)

The relevance of description vs. prescription depends on what one's claim is. If we're claiming a biblical requirement  to X, we'd need prescriptive passages to support it rather than descriptive ones. If we're claiming that X is permissible, descriptive is sufficient.

Kevin Subra wrote:

1. Nothing that Jesus used remotely resembles The Lord of the Rings. God wrote the majority of the Bible in chronology and prescription. He did not write us an allegory to decipher (we have enough trouble with clear revelation, don't we?).

First, Lord of the Rings is not allegory. Second, "remotely resembles"... parables are fiction, LoTR is fiction = much more than resemblance. They are species of the same genus. Third, there is some allegory in Scripture... but a subgenre doesn't have to exist in the Bible in order for us to use it. It's just that a positive presence of a subgenre in Scripture helps us see more clearly that it is not forbidden. (Omission is not prohibition.)

Kevin Subra wrote:
2. The Bible is inspired (including what Jesus said). That is a HUGE distinguishing characteristic from what you suggest. Apples versus [uninspired] oranges. Man's works are full of holes (Pilgrim's Progress has many of them, for example).

Again, the relevance depends on the claim being made. Since nobody is claiming that fiction by human authors is infallible, the absence of that characteristic doesn't support the idea that human fiction is unuseable. (In fact, we use hymns--not infallible; poetry--not infallible; textbooks--not infallible... list goes on)

Kevin Subra wrote:
3. Fictional works have no redeeming value whatsoever without accurate understanding of Scripture. It is open to major fallacy and pseudo-application. They also may be given more weight than their authors even intended.

This one depends on what "redeeming value" means. We were created in God's image so that, like Him, we would--among other things--imagine and create. So even a lost person who enjoys an imaginative work is, in a small way, being what God made him to be. Personally, I think it's a mistake to look at fiction strictly in terms of its message. I've seen lots of Christian writers go that route. The creative act and the act of experiencing story are good things in themselves, other things being equal.  But even if we suppose fiction is worthless to those who aren't biblically informed, the claim that it has value for those who are biblically informed stands.

Kevin Subra wrote:
I'm happy with the Bible as my source of truth.
So are we all. The question is whether God has put 100% of the truth that exists in the pages of the Bible and 0% anywhere else. I don't think you'd want to take that position. But if there is even 1% somewhere else, we should pursue that 1%.

Kevin Subra wrote:
... nor distract people from what they should be meditating on by redirecting their attention to man's works.

The assumption here is that man's works must distract and cannot add to our understanding. Doesn't fit Paul's use of secular poets in his speaking and writing (see Titus 1). And the act of preaching itself--as someone mentioned upthread--is human work. We don't just read Scripture for an hour. We add our perspective and experiences into our delivery as an aid to understanding. Scripture has to be hitched to Life if we're going to use it faithfully. That involves understanding both Scripture and Life. Stories of all sorts help a great deal with the latter.

(Being a bit relationally-challenged by nature, I'm so thankful for all the stories people have written that have helped me understand human nature better. Stories are almost a way of living multiple lives and gaining the wisdom of experiences without the risks of really experiencing them.)

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And so our point of disagreement is...?

Kevin Subra wrote:

I think I have answered your first question already. I believe the scope of this is an affirmation of fictional works as a means of teaching.

 

OK. And in my own personal opinion and preference, I responded:

Rev Karl wrote:

All that being said, I would NEVER use an illustration out of the type of literature being discussed as an illustration in the pulpit. While Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, John Bunyan, and scores of others have written books which elaborate desirable character traits, the triumph of good over evil, etc., I would not use them in a sermon, or as a book study in a church setting.

So I am now going to shut up and bow out.

 

God be with us all.

 

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How About Non-Fiction?

Susan R wrote:
Reading fiction can be a good thing if we treat this activity with the same thoughtfulness and purpose with which we should endeavor to approach everything, even relaxation. Perhaps I should say especially relaxation, which is when we tend to let our guard down.  "Relax" doesn't have to mean 'vegging out' or dropping our moral boundaries.
I do not disagree. I just think that the emphasis placed upon fiction in this thread far exceeds its true value and seems to indicate a heavy focus upon it rather than the Word. Too much of anything takes us away from our required attention to the Word.

Susan R wrote:
Benefits of reading include reducing stress, increasing mental acuity, broadening the vocabulary, improving writing skills, sharpening the memory, and there are studies that indicate it can slow the progress of the mental deterioration we experience as we age. These are all positive things that are beneficial in every area of our lives.
Is there too much of a good thing possible here? Just asking. I managed a bookstore for awhile. Fiction was the hottest commodity and soared out the door (you can guess what kind too - yep, the romances). I doubt if Bible reading was high on anyone's list, even though their vocabulary was higher and their mental acuity was increased. ;>D Their realism and expectations in marriage were probably fictional with all of that exposure. ;>D

I know who Edgar Rice Burroughs is. :>D Fascinating reading back in the day (but a real waste of time as I look back). I encourage people to read biographies, histories, and non-fiction, hoping that they receive some of the same benefits you suggest with a higher level of benefit.

 

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How Do You Interact with Someone Who Uses the Word "Subgenre?"

Aaron Blumer wrote:

The relevance of description vs. prescription depends on what one's claim is. If we're claiming a biblical requirement  to X, we'd need prescriptive passages to support it rather than descriptive ones. If we're claiming that X is permissible, descriptive is sufficient.

This is where I start sounding stupid and uneducated. I disagree with this dual standard. God had 1500 years and 66 books (in English) to relate His means of relaying truth. He did not do it via a novel. Jesus spoke directly, and used no more than short stories to illustrate specific truths. We are to preach the Word, not someone's novel that weaves the truth in by means of the mind of man.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
 

Kevin Subra wrote:

1. Nothing that Jesus used remotely resembles The Lord of the Rings. God wrote the majority of the Bible in chronology and prescription. He did not write us an allegory to decipher (we have enough trouble with clear revelation, don't we?).

First, Lord of the Rings is not allegory. Second, "remotely resembles"... parables are fiction, LoTR is fiction = much more than resemblance. They are species of the same genus. Third, there is some allegory in Scripture... but a subgenre doesn't have to exist in the Bible in order for us to use it. It's just that a positive presence of a subgenre in Scripture helps us see more clearly that it is not forbidden. (Omission is not prohibition.)

I will repeat, nothing Jesus used remotely resembles a multi-volume fictional work like LoTR. Small and direct, versus long and opaque is quite a difference. (My son would argue about the allegorical content of LoTR, and I'd probably say it would be easy to understand it allegorically.) Omission is not permission, either, I'd say.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
 

Kevin Subra wrote:
2. The Bible is inspired (including what Jesus said). That is a HUGE distinguishing characteristic from what you suggest. Apples versus [uninspired] oranges. Man's works are full of holes (Pilgrim's Progress has many of them, for example).

Again, the relevance depends on the claim being made. Since nobody is claiming that fiction by human authors is infallible, the absence of that characteristic doesn't support the idea that human fiction is unuseable. (In fact, we use hymns--not infallible; poetry--not infallible; textbooks--not infallible... list goes on)

Aaron, we are suggesting and encouraging people to read this type of fiction because in some way the Scripture as it stands is insufficient and needs this effort to explain it. That is not found in Scripture, and it really defies what Scripture does say ("thoroughly furnished unto all good works"). It also gives more credit to a work of man that deserves our time and focus. We are to rightly divide the Word, not Tolkien.  We are not talking hymns (non-fiction, which often repeat doctrine in metered form), textbooks (non-fiction, which explain the Word much like a sermon), and poetry (depends upon the context).

Aaron Blumer wrote:
  

Kevin Subra wrote:
3. Fictional works have no redeeming value whatsoever without accurate understanding of Scripture. It is open to major fallacy and pseudo-application. They also may be given more weight than their authors even intended.

This one depends on what "redeeming value" means. We were created in God's image so that, like Him, we would--among other things--imagine and create. So even a lost person who enjoys an imaginative work is, in a small way, being what God made him to be. Personally, I think it's a mistake to look at fiction strictly in terms of its message. I've seen lots of Christian writers go that route. The creative act and the act of experiencing story are good things in themselves, other things being equal.  But even if we suppose fiction is worthless to those who aren't biblically informed, the claim that it has value for those who are biblically informed stands.

I have to disagree. Unless man's imagination is first taught and tempered by the Word, the "creative act and the act of experiencing story" are not "good things in themselves." Man's imagination is evil from his youth (Gen 8:21). We have deceitful and desperately wicked hearts (Jeremiah 17:9). To be honest, though I understand what you say about the image of God involving imagining and creating, i don't find that clearly defined in Scripture, do you? I do find that we should reflect him. We certainly can imagine, design, etc., but apart from the influence of the Word and the proper focus on the Creator Himself, it is just another form of idolatry, worshipping the creature rather than the Creator.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
   

Kevin Subra wrote:
I'm happy with the Bible as my source of truth.
So are we all. The question is whether God has put 100% of the truth that exists in the pages of the Bible and 0% anywhere else. I don't think you'd want to take that position. But if there is even 1% somewhere else, we should pursue that 1%.
The Word defines what truth is. You still have to start and end with the Word, or you cannot identify what is true. (And fiction is not a source of truth, by definition, I would think.) And we are still told to meditate on the Word day and night, to rightly divide the Word, to preach the Word, etc. That seems to have some weight, doesn't it?

Aaron Blumer wrote:
    

Kevin Subra wrote:
... nor distract people from what they should be meditating on by redirecting their attention to man's works.

The assumption here is that man's works must distract and cannot add to our understanding. Doesn't fit Paul's use of secular poets in his speaking and writing (see Titus 1). And the act of preaching itself--as someone mentioned upthread--is human work. We don't just read Scripture for an hour. We add our perspective and experiences into our delivery as an aid to understanding. Scripture has to be hitched to Life if we're going to use it faithfully. That involves understanding both Scripture and Life. Stories of all sorts help a great deal with the latter.

I don't argue using illustrations if the truth is the central focus. If you want to read a volume-length story and study it at length, as opposed to studying the Word directly, I'd pass.

Paul's references to secular writers doesn't validate this conversation. He acknowledges their existence. He leverages a short comment. He does not turn and suggest to study the works, seeking what truth may be found there.

When I suggest that man's work distracts, it can easily do so by mere logistics. Time spent on something else is time spent away from 66 books that God did give for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. I don't know about you, but I'm still a bit shy from the comfortable mark on my knowledge of those 66 books. I think of Luke 8 which talks about the cares, riches, and pleasures of this life which choke us and prevent us from bringing fruit to maturity. I think of redeeming the time because the days are evil. I think that we are to meditate on the Word day and night. It sure appears to me that distraction is very, very possible (not just from reading - it could be from spending too much time on SI ;>D).

For what it is worth, I like Les Miserables. I read the abridged version in high school. I saw the Broadway musical a couple of times. I listened to the 62 hour unabridged audio version. I found it fascinating in many ways. (The priest as the hero of the book occupies 10-12 chapters before Jean Valjean even is mentioned.) I enjoy the music too. However, the entire book only has meaning as I understand what the Word says. I cannot preach the story - there are way too many falsehoods in the midst of the noble intentions. I might take a slice of one moment as an illustration - explaining the context a bit first - and then use that to illustrate a point. I would never use Les Miserables (or LoTR, or Chronicles, etc.) as a text to try to teach the truth. That is backwards. The Word is much to rich to leave it for something that can only pale in comparison.

I'll end here. I have never used "subgenre" ever. I know when I'm over my head. ;>D

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Fiction helps to understand Bible

Several people on this thread have suggested that, whatever the merits of fiction, it does not help one read the Bible better. Kevin Subra's bit about newspapers calls into question whether even (purportedly) non-fiction books can help one read the Bible better. Susan contrasted the illumination of the Holy Spirit to the process of reading. I believe that extra-biblical works, both fiction and non-fiction, can help one be a better Bible reader, and that this help in no way competes with the Holy Spirit. That doesn't necessarily mean that any work WILL help someone.

Saint Augustine's De doctrina christiana (On Teaching Christianity) is a manual to help priests interpret and expound the Bible. The preface to his work offers a justification for it. I have written about that elsewhere: http://wp.me/pMeOB-7S

He has some points worth making. First, people who are reading the Bible are, well, reading. How did they learn to read? Someone taught them. So, there can never be an absolute separation between general knowledge and scriptural interpretation. I would extend the point further. Being a good Bible reader shares many attributes in common with being a good reader in general: thoughtfulness, attention to detail, genre recognition, empathy, etc. How are these developed? Usually by reading other books.

Almost all Christians believe that the historical and grammatical contexts matter for interpretation. But how does one understand a word that is used only once in the Bible? Perhaps the context makes the meaning beyond doubt, but often one is forced to draw from the broader corpus of Hebrew or Greek literature. If there were not some people who read many other books, one would not even have a reliable English translation to read. How does one make sense of an obscure practice in the Bible? Cultural histories can reveal to us the meaning that would have been obvious to the original reader. Also, if one acknowledges the necessity of orally teaching about Scripture, any objection to written forms of that teaching seems hypocritical.

As for fiction, many of the genres that make up the Bible are what we would today call literature, or are at least heavily imbued with literary qualities. A good bit of the Old Testament is poetry. Some resembles epic. There are psalms. Many of the genealogies, annals, and covenantal codes are shaped by ancient near eastern genre expectations. (A great resource on this is Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament by John Walton.) So, if ancient or modern fiction can help one become a better reader of a genre, the skill is transferable. 

As for the Holy Spirit, I don't think it does well to pit him against "natural" skills, though his role extends beyond them. I don't think Susan meant to do such a thing, but it behooves us to be careful about our disjunctive statements.

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Glad you made that point,

Glad you made that point, Charlie.  I agree whole-heartedly.

I became a serious reader of poetry about 6 years ago, and it has helped me immensely in my reading and interpreting the Bible.

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Right

To further clarify- reading fiction or nonfiction hones our reading skills, and therefore can help us understand the Bible. I was trying to make a distinction between interpreting Scripture on a spiritual level and an intellectual level. 

This could be similar to studying to be a better mechanic, if that was one's vocation, as excellence should be a part of a Christian's testimony. (Whatever thy hand findeth to do ...) Everything we do to better ourselves for the work of the Lord is 'spiritual' in that sense.

I didn't and don't propose that our intake of fiction/nonfiction, secular or otherwise, takes the place of or diminishes our reading and studying of Scripture. But we need to be careful about saying that we should spend more time reading the Bible than we do anything else. Who else has a job and needs more than 2 hours of sleep a night? Does God expect us to neglect our families or take an extra-long lunch break or call in sick to spend time studying the Bible? Of course not. I am assuming an audience that understands extremes or abuse of liberty are not being promoted here.

The thread focuses on fiction, but I also recommend reading nonfiction, and it's safe to say I read much more nonfiction than fiction, even with the YA book reviews that I do for one of my blogs. But nonfiction, as I have mentioned, is not automatically better than fiction. Some fiction is more 'factual' and thought provoking than nonfiction. It really depends on the skill and intent of the author.

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Wasted time and effort

Kevin,

I'm curious. Are there any pursuits or activities which do not constitute Bible reading or study that are worthwhile in your view? I know that you have been arguing against reading fiction, but it seems that your arguments are generic enough to be applied to almost every activity a Christian might engage in. 

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Your view...

Kevin, I'm having a little trouble now seeing what your view is. Which of these would you say best summarizes it:

  1. Fiction is inherently competitive with the Word and the Spirit: more of one necessarily means less of the other.
  2. Fiction has value but not very much and is not useful in preaching (unless maybe it's very short and/or inspired fiction)
  3. Fiction is good but the tendency is to overuse it.

Related ... your argument is that LoTR is bad fiction because it's longer than the short fiction Jesus uses in His parables? If that's the case, what is it about length that ruins fiction?

(FWIW, I don't think anyone here is saying that we should preach fiction at all, much less preach it instead of the Word.)

One more: is Les Miserables good and LoTR bad because Les Mis. is less imaginative? In what way is LM "better" than LoTR?

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I Believe We Are Passing By Each Other

Charlie wrote:
I believe that extra-biblical works, both fiction and non-fiction, can help one be a better Bible reader, and that this help in no way competes with the Holy Spirit. That doesn't necessarily mean that any work WILL help someone.

Saint Augustine's De doctrina christiana (On Teaching Christianity) is a manual to help priests interpret and expound the Bible. The preface to his work offers a justification for it. I have written about that elsewhere: http://wp.me/pMeOB-7S

He has some points worth making. First, people who are reading the Bible are, well, reading. How did they learn to read? Someone taught them. So, there can never be an absolute separation between general knowledge and scriptural interpretation. I would extend the point further. Being a good Bible reader shares many attributes in common with being a good reader in general: thoughtfulness, attention to detail, genre recognition, empathy, etc. How are these developed? Usually by reading other books.

Charlie, it seems to me that your are discussing something entirely different. The article above is not discussing learning to read well via practice. Reading most anything (from the Bible and comic books, the Koran and anything in between) would produce more proficient reading skills. The more one reads, the more one develops his/her reading skills. No argument there. The article above promotes reading mythology to "recover," which infers (to me) that such is needed outside of Biblical revelation to make Biblical revelation work (my summary). I think this diminishes the Word, and has no foundation in Scripture. I am not arguing for or against reading other things besides the Bible, per se.

Charlie wrote:
Almost all Christians believe that the historical and grammatical contexts matter for interpretation. But how does one understand a word that is used only once in the Bible? Perhaps the context makes the meaning beyond doubt, but often one is forced to draw from the broader corpus of Hebrew or Greek literature. If there were not some people who read many other books, one would not even have a reliable English translation to read. How does one make sense of an obscure practice in the Bible? Cultural histories can reveal to us the meaning that would have been obvious to the original reader. Also, if one acknowledges the necessity of orally teaching about Scripture, any objection to written forms of that teaching seems hypocritical.
Once again, I think this deviates from the article and the discussion. Reading mythology will not help one better understand a word used only once in the Bible, unless you are suggesting that everyone learn Classical Greek to do so (and in my limited understanding, Classical and Koine are not the same). Reading such things in English would not help the "once used" understanding, as English is not that precise.

As far as understanding words, we have lexicons and precise tools that cite such usages. It doesn't require us to become students of mythology to do so. Understanding an obscure practice in the Bible is not furthered by reading mythology either, if mythology is mythology.

Charlie wrote:
As for fiction, many of the genres that make up the Bible are what we would today call literature, or are at least heavily imbued with literary qualities. A good bit of the Old Testament is poetry. Some resembles epic. There are psalms. Many of the genealogies, annals, and covenantal codes are shaped by ancient near eastern genre expectations. (A great resource on this is Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament by John Walton.) So, if ancient or modern fiction can help one become a better reader of a genre, the skill is transferable.
These statements miss my argument. I do not suggest that there are not many different genres represented in the Bible. I argue that we do not need to read or study works of mythology to get "reset," or to understand the Word. I also argue that just because the Bible uses brief forms of fiction in no way validates works of mythology as a source of training or truth, or something required outside of Scripture in order to understand Scripture better.

Finally, I am ignorant of Augustine's work in any detail. I just hope that what he proffers can still be  proven from Scripture. If so, then I'm with him.

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Answering Your Question

pvawter wrote:

Kevin,

I'm curious. Are there any pursuits or activities which do not constitute Bible reading or study that are worthwhile in your view? I know that you have been arguing against reading fiction, but it seems that your arguments are generic enough to be applied to almost every activity a Christian might engage in. 

My objections are specifically connected to the premise that mythology is somehow something that can help us understand the Bible, which puts it in opposition with the Word's sufficiency. Your question seems to deviate from that, but I understand why you would ask it. To me, your question isn't one answered by "what" nearly as much as by "where" and "how much."

You ask a "what" question. There are certainly things that are clearly forbidden in Scripture. There are also things that we are commanded to be doing. Both can be answered by "what."

You also find in Scripture the idea of "where," (as I call it) in that something unrestricted becomes wrong because it is placed above or before God, or that prevents us from doing "what" we are clearly commanded to do. It becomes an idol if it removes God from His rightful place. It becomes our determining factor, our primary influencer, etc.

Tied with "where" is "how much." Is it wrong to read fiction? I would say it is not. However, if our enjoyment of fiction displaces our meditation on God's Word, our responsibilities as believers, etc. then it becomes wrong. Can I watch a football game? I'll answer a generic "sure." (I don't follow football, but for the sake of discussion..., and I'll not discuss possible reasons for not watching football not related to this discussion). However, when I immerse myself in football at the cost of neglecting God's other commands to me, then it becomes wrong. (That does seem to be our heart's tendency, as illustrated in OT and in the NT.)

Several passages dictate my understanding in this area:

  • Luke 8:14, where people are "choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity."
  • Luke 14:27 where Jesus says that "...whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." (Carrying a cross seems to be an ongoing self-denial to pursue Christ, not piety for piety's sake.)
  • Ephesians 5:15-16 "See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise,  redeeming the time, because the days are evil." (We are to make the most of our time.)
  • Colossians 3:1-2, where we are commanded very directly: "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.  Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth."
  • Colossians 3:16: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Probably parallel to meditating on the Word day and night in Psalm 1 and Joshua 1:8-9)
  • 2 Timothy 3:1-5 "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:  For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,  unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,  traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,  having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"
  • Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,  teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,  looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,  who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. (This tells us what we are not to be driven by, and also what we are to be driven to do.)
  • 1 John 2:15-17:  "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world-- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-- is not of the Father but is of the world.  And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever."

There are multitudes of verses like this expressing God's direction that we be different. We somehow have the idea that we are saved to do whatever we want, when God has indicated clearly otherwise. We can get more specific about what we are to be doing (reading, meditating upon, memorizing the Word; praying; good works; etc.). However, suffice it to say the Bible seems to not leave us to ourselves to fully determine our focuses and efforts. Yet we are a culture of believers that revels in doing what we want because God hasn't said we couldn't. However, He has spoken more clearly than we often care to recall.

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Sorry to Confuse

Aaron Blumer wrote:

Kevin, I'm having a little trouble now seeing what your view is. Which of these would you say best summarizes it:

  1. Fiction is inherently competitive with the Word and the Spirit: more of one necessarily means less of the other.
  2. Fiction has value but not very much and is not useful in preaching (unless maybe it's very short and/or inspired fiction)
  3. Fiction is good but the tendency is to overuse it.

Related ... your argument is that LoTR is bad fiction because it's longer than the short fiction Jesus uses in His parables? If that's the case, what is it about length that ruins fiction?

(FWIW, I don't think anyone here is saying that we should preach fiction at all, much less preach it instead of the Word.)

One more: is Les Miserables good and LoTR bad because Les Mis. is less imaginative? In what way is LM "better" than LoTR?

Sorry about confusing you. It's all clear in my mind. ;>D

I would probably agree to some extent with all three statements (and the several concepts in each one):

  1. As I've expressed in another response, we are to focus upon what is true. Fiction by definition is not true. Mixing truth and fiction seem to me to distort truth, because it cannot (as a man-generated work) add to it. We begin to think in terms of the fiction rather than the truth. We have what we know to be true clouded and defined by what isn't true. Quantitatively (logically?), we can give ourselves to concentrating (meditating) on the Word or something else. If we immerse ourselves in something else, does it not remove us from the Word?
  2. Personally, I probably can accept fiction as a means to some ends (learning to read, entertainment) but not (as my primary objection is to this article) in some way thinking that it can assist the Word to make it better, or as necessary to "reset" us as though the Word cannot be effective without fiction. As I see it, and as I have expressed before, I do not see any Biblical justification for using the LoTR, Chronicles, or Les Mis as some type of God-approved (or some, even God-mandated or God-reflecting) teaching activity. The Bible wasn't written as a fictional triology, nor did Jesus use fiction apart from a direct lesson (or to confuse listeners).
  3. Some fiction can be good ("fiction is good" is too general and includes all fiction, and I'm sure not what you intended). Often fiction (such as historical fiction) can confuse fact & fiction, so people really do not gain the ability to know what happened, but lose the ability to do so. I believe our primary focus (in quantity and quality) is clearly to be on the Word.

Your FWIW comment: The entire Part 6 quotes nothing of the Bible to validate any of its claims, and yet suggests that fiction can be used to awaken us, reset us, recover us. On what Biblical principle is this based? My entire objection finally in a concise question.

Les Miserables and LoTR - Reread my comments. I did not suggest that Les Mis was better. I was only relating that I had indeed read another popular fictional work, and liked it. I don't think it should be used as a means to learn the Word better either. I wasn't proclaiming it any better.

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I do not think it means what you think it means...

Kevin Subra wrote:

My objections are specifically connected to the premise that mythology is somehow something that can help us understand the Bible, which puts it in opposition with the Word's sufficiency. Your question seems to deviate from that, but I understand why you would ask it.


I don't think the sufficiency of the word can be used the way you mean it, otherwise, there would never be any need for teaching or preaching once one is converted. Clearly, that is not the case -- we don't say that once the things of the Word are no longer foolishness, we then therefore automatically understand everything, since the Word is "sufficient." The Bible says "Be not many masters," and that's certainly not because all saved are now automatically in that category.

It would be easier to argue (and more correct, IMHO) that it's the *insufficiency* of humans (not the insufficiency of the Word) that makes teaching, preaching, and yes, examples from the real world useful (and modeled by Jesus) in getting the meaning across to fallen man.

Since there is that insufficiency on our part (and again, because it's modeled in scripture), there are plenty of things that help get the full meaning of scripture across to us. I wouldn't argue that we have to spend large amounts of time with ancient literature, fiction or non-fiction to understand the Bible, but that's not the same thing as saying studying it can't be of any help and is therefore completely unnecessary. You refer pretty easily to lexicons, but where did those come from? They certainly were not inspired and handed to us by God, and those that wrote them or did the hard work to understand how to put them together would have had to delve into all sorts of writings to get a full understanding of the meanings of the words.

In addition, he men who did many of the great works in Bible translation, lexicon work, commentaries, etc., were indeed well-learned, and often versed in much ancient literature of all types. Clearly it benefited them.

I'm sure I can hear you object that we don't "need" any of that, and it's certainly true that God's Holy Spirit can illumine the Word and make it clear, even to the unconverted when drawing them to himself, without anything else needed. However, it's also true that God has told us to study to show ourselves approved. It's been my observation that the right division of the Word of Truth is pretty rare among those who eschew any studies outside the Word itself. I'm sure many would like to think of themselves in the same league as the "unlearned and ignorant" disciples, able to speak with authority without further study, but we haven't been called to spend 3 years in study with Jesus in person, and then to go forth and speak miraculously.

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Yes. Kevin, there's all kinds of material in your posts that is just not in dispute. The problem lies partly in your premises but mostly in the conclusions you're drawing from them.

The entire Part 6 quotes nothing of the Bible to validate any of its claims, and yet suggests that fiction can be used to awaken us, reset us, recover us. On what Biblical principle is this based?

This would be a premise problem. The premise seems to be: "Everything must be proved from Scripture in order to be true."

I would probably agree to some extent with all three statements (and the several concepts in each one):

This illustrates to a degree what I mean by "conclusions you are drawing from them." View A is not compatible with B or C.  Because, if it's true that "fiction is inherently competitive with the Word and the Spirit: more of one necessarily means less of the other," then it follows that fiction is to be avoided entirely and there is no good in it at all.  (And Jesus should have given us a disclaimer: "I am using fiction in my public ministry but nobody else should.")

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To Some Extent

Aaron Blumer wrote:

Yes. Kevin, there's all kinds of material in your posts that is just not in dispute. The problem lies partly in your premises but mostly in the conclusions you're drawing from them.

The entire Part 6 quotes nothing of the Bible to validate any of its claims, and yet suggests that fiction can be used to awaken us, reset us, recover us. On what Biblical principle is this based?

This would be a premise problem. The premise seems to be: "Everything must be proved from Scripture in order to be true."

I would probably agree to some extent with all three statements (and the several concepts in each one):

This illustrates to a degree what I mean by "conclusions you are drawing from them." View A is not compatible with B or C.  Because, if it's true that "fiction is inherently competitive with the Word and the Spirit: more of one necessarily means less of the other," then it follows that fiction is to be avoided entirely and there is no good in it at all.  (And Jesus should have given us a disclaimer: "I am using fiction in my public ministry but nobody else should.")

Aaron, the key phrase in my lengthy response to your multiple choice question is "to some extent." I didn't simply answer with letters, because there were multiple points in each, and I could agree with parts of each. I have not said that fiction should be avoided entirely. I just argue that it is not something necessary to help people understand Scripture, which is the premise of the article.

I do believe that such a claim needs more support than "the Bible doesn't prohibit it, and therefore all things are allowed." I have stated that there is no hint of such a need in Scripture for man-written mythology to help one understand Scripture, and that saying so diminishes the Gospel and Scripture. The Gospel is the power of God to salvation, Aaron, not the LoTR. Jesus did not point us in that direction, and used fiction in a very limited, direct way to make specific points. The Bible is not written in such a way, which I believe gives us a pattern to learn by and teach by. Justifying things solely by silence with nothing more is trusting man's heart rather than God's revelation, as I would see it.

If you are comfortable encouraging people to read fiction as a means to understanding the Word, do so. I do not believe it to help or enhance, nor do I believe mythology can do so. I do not believe the Scriptures hint at such a use in any way, and actually argue against it by what is done and what is used. At worst, I'd rather err on the side of studying the Word, rather than J.R.R. Tolkien.

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I'm In

dcbii wrote:
Kevin Subra wrote:

My objections are specifically connected to the premise that mythology is somehow something that can help us understand the Bible, which puts it in opposition with the Word's sufficiency. Your question seems to deviate from that, but I understand why you would ask it.

I don't think the sufficiency of the word can be used the way you mean it, otherwise, there would never be any need for teaching or preaching once one is converted. Clearly, that is not the case -- we don't say that once the things of the Word are no longer foolishness, we then therefore automatically understand everything, since the Word is "sufficient." The Bible says "Be not many masters," and that's certainly not because all saved are now automatically in that category. It would be easier to argue (and more correct, IMHO) that it's the *insufficiency* of humans (not the insufficiency of the Word) that makes teaching, preaching, and yes, examples from the real world useful (and modeled by Jesus) in getting the meaning across to fallen man. Since there is that insufficiency on our part (and again, because it's modeled in scripture), there are plenty of things that help get the full meaning of scripture across to us. I wouldn't argue that we have to spend large amounts of time with ancient literature, fiction or non-fiction to understand the Bible, but that's not the same thing as saying studying it can't be of any help and is therefore completely unnecessary. You refer pretty easily to lexicons, but where did those come from? They certainly were not inspired and handed to us by God, and those that wrote them or did the hard work to understand how to put them together would have had to delve into all sorts of writings to get a full understanding of the meanings of the words. In addition, he men who did many of the great works in Bible translation, lexicon work, commentaries, etc., were indeed well-learned, and often versed in much ancient literature of all types. Clearly it benefited them. I'm sure I can hear you object that we don't "need" any of that, and it's certainly true that God's Holy Spirit can illumine the Word and make it clear, even to the unconverted when drawing them to himself, without anything else needed. However, it's also true that God has told us to study to show ourselves approved. It's been my observation that the right division of the Word of Truth is pretty rare among those who eschew any studies outside the Word itself. I'm sure many would like to think of themselves in the same league as the "unlearned and ignorant" disciples, able to speak with authority without further study, but we haven't been called to spend 3 years in study with Jesus in person, and then to go forth and speak miraculously.

I am at a loss to what you are addressing that I said. I do not believe mythology or fiction is necessary, per the article, to reset or recover someone in addition to Scripture. I see great value in studying the efforts of others in helping learn the Word. We are commanded to rightly divide the Word. I'm in, unless you count The Lord of the Rings in with commentaries.

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Once again...

I reiterate my stance on these articles, and it appears Kevin is in agreement. I've personally come to the place in my life where Scripture is the only thing I read anymore ( if one discounts the occasional newspaper for world news, and various websites for news and other articles of use to believers, such as contending for the faith once given ).

 

To me, mythology has no place in the life of a believer and is only of any value if one meets another person who has been converted out of mythology ( other gods and goddesses ) or one preaches the Gospel to those who are involved in idolatry. IMO, further involvement takes our attention away from the finished work of Christ and worship of God the Father and His Son. Scripture is all we need ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ).

 

Dave.

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Dave Gilbert wrote: I've

Dave Gilbert wrote:
I've personally come to the place in my life where Scripture is the only thing I read anymore . . .

 

No offense, but that's flat crazy, not to mention inhumane.

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Dave Gilbert wrote: I

Dave Gilbert wrote:

I reiterate my stance on these articles, and it appears Kevin is in agreement. I've personally come to the place in my life where Scripture is the only thing I read anymore ( if one discounts the occasional newspaper for world news, and various websites for news and other articles of use to believers, such as contending for the faith once given ).

 

To me, mythology has no place in the life of a believer and is only of any value if one meets another person who has been converted out of mythology ( other gods and goddesses ) or one preaches the Gospel to those who are involved in idolatry. IMO, further involvement takes our attention away from the finished work of Christ and worship of God the Father and His Son. Scripture is all we need ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ).

 

Dave.

So then Scripture ISN'T the only thing you read anymore.

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OK.

OK, Greg, you have a point. Scripture isn't the only thing I read anymore. I do, however, feel that studying or reading anything to do with other gods and goddesses ( other than the one, true Father God and His Son, Jesus Christ ) to be an honest waste of time ( not to mention bordering on idolatry, which is a sin ), since Scripture is infinitely more valuable for the believer than any thing else. I personally have enough trouble obeying God when it comes to loving Him with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind without introducing this particular subject to the mix.

 

As for being "flat crazy" or "inhumane", I fail to see how either of those terms can be used to describe someone who desires to know God through only His word, and no other means of "getting there". Perhaps I made myself misunderstood. Let me lay it out plainly then...

 

In the best spirit of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Scripture is all we need to have for a relationship with God. Commentaries, books on life experiences and other forms of reference are decidedly secondary, IMO; With respect to the first two I've listed, I find those to be ultimately untrustworthy since one is an opinion of what God's word says ( and not always theologically correct ) and the other is a subjective "look" at the Lord through one person's eyes. Experience is a wonderful "gauge" to identify where a person is at in their growth, but it has no real authority when compared to Scripture. For me, a good Strong's concordance and an accurately translated copy of God's word is enough.

 

Now Greg and DavidO...I take it you were both joking and poking me for saying I only read Scripture, as me even being here posting on these forums indicates that I misstated myself. Wink

 

Respectfully,

 

Dave Gilbert.

 

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Now for my next comment...

I've re-read this article and I'm at a loss as to how mythology, other types of fiction or even non-fiction can help us understand what God's word says, or how it can make God's word more "interesting" or see it in a different "light" than the way it is.

 

As believers, we know that the indwelling Holy Spirit of God is the only one who can help us to make sense of Scripture, so it goes without saying that all one would need is a copy of the Scriptures and a mind that believes the truth. Like Lydia in Thyatira, our heart gets opened by the Lord so that we can understand the Gospel and respond to it. Hearing it for the "millionth time" doesn't make it any less special to me than it did the first time, only more precious or at least as precious.

 

This process of "de-familiarization" is a side-track in my opinion, and not worthy of inspection at all. Also, the vail referenced in 2 Corinthians 3:16 refers to Israel turning back to the Lord in the end times, and when it does, the vail that has blinded them judiciously for thousands of years shall be removed, allowing them to respond in repentance and faith. It is true that from our viewpoint, regeneration is needed to respond ( by the way, this is a conclusion based on election passages, but a sound one, and John 6:44 proves this ) and Scripture bears out also that we must be born again...this is the taking out of the heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh so that we will then be receptive and will embrace the Gospel by faith. There is no "aid" needed in removing this vail, except God's Holy Spirit.

 

As for "a god" once walking among us, yes, I saw the footnote...but I still must say ( with as much composure as I can ) that Jesus was not just "a god"....yes, I understand where it's coming from, so to speak, but I still find it demeaning to Him. As the only begotten Son of the living God and not one of man's making, He is the only one who could walk among us...all the rest are fictitious and false and could never take on the real flesh and blood of mankind in the way that Christ did.

 

Mythology, J.R.R. Tolkein ( a fantasy writer and one I find very hard to believe in his personal salvation, if he even confessed Christ ) and C.S. Lewis ( another I find to be difficult to believe in his salvation, as well ) are just more of the same worldly, unedifying-but-fleshly-entertaining stuff that gets distributed via the world's media to those who eat it up by the bucket load. I find all of it a huge distraction to knowing the Lord through His Spirit and the word. Now, maybe that's just a bit too fundamentalist for some to hear, but I feel it is the truth and needs to be said. I'm reminded of a gentleman I once car-pooled with, who "saw the redeeming qualities" of J.K. Rowling's work with Harry Potter as somehow reflecting biblical principles...perhaps there are similarities with fictional characters and those of the Bible, but the main difference is, the Bible is true and the rest are lies.

 

At the end of it all, we need to remember that God is holy, and we are to be as well...but it sure can be difficult if we are not yielding to the Spirit.

 

Dave.

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Dave, most Christians

Dave, most Christians throughout history have not taken the approach that all we need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. The Bible itself says God has given teachers to build up the church, and teachers teach both in person and through writing books. Also, in 2Tim. 4:13 Paul asked Timothy to bring "the books, especially the parchments" to him in prison.

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Greg, weak argument, my friend. We are not arguing "no books," Rather, a keen focus on the Bible without the distraction of such things as mythology, for which we argue are of little value.

Do you think the books were mythological works? Did you catch "especially the parchments" part? What do you think those were?

Paul, from prison: "My life is near the end. Please bring me The Lord of the Rings, that I may end my life immersed in mythology" is probably short of the truth. ;>D

You can expand the argument to anything, but certainly it is easy for us, with all of the sports, past times, etc. to become distracted by the "cares, riches, and pleasures" of this life so we have no time for meditating on the Word day and night. The latter eclipses the former, and should. We can argue that all of these focuses do not draw us away from the Word, or somehow make us better understand it. However, the Word seems to argue otherwise.

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Kevin, I was specifically

Kevin, I was specifically addressing Dave's argument that all we need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

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Teaching from Scripture is one thing...

Teaching from books based on observation of Scripture is another. Sorry Greg, I don't agree with the concept of needing anything else besides Scripture to show us what Scripture means, or "news ways in which to see it". To me, that equals, " I get my teaching and knowledge from the Bible plus "Rev." So-and-So's interpretation ( or commentary, etc. )".  I don't intentionally wish to offend, but rather to place my trust in Scripture itself. Men are fallible, God's word is not.

 

As for Paul ( writing by inspiration of the Holy Ghost ) requesting "books and parchments"...keep in mind that books are also folios or bindings of pages of some type that could also just as well have been blank, while parchments themselves are loose pages. For Paul to request them from someone while he was in prison probably meant he was going to do some writing while he was there.

 

 

Dave.

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Still overreaching

Kevin,

You have made a declaration that mythological fiction is of little value, but by what rubric do you define the value of a work of fiction?

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You can expand the argument

You can expand the argument to anything, but certainly it is easy for us, with all of the sports, past times, etc. to become distracted by the "cares, riches, and pleasures" of this life so we have no time for meditating on the Word day and night. The latter eclipses the former, and should. We can argue that all of these focuses do not draw us away from the Word, or somehow make us better understand it. However, the Word seems to argue otherwise.

So there is no way to do both?  Enjoy God's creation such as sports, past times, and etc... and meditate on God's word?  The view that it "eclipses the former" shows that you may have an underdeveloped theology of what it means to be made in God's image, which is directly connected to the cultural mandate that was given to Adam and his descendants.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but my fear is that you have embraced a more dualistic, gnostic view of life by interpreting these passages about the things of this world ontologically instead or morally.   

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Brief Repeat

pvawter wrote:

Kevin,

You have made a declaration that mythological fiction is of little value, but by what rubric do you define the value of a work of fiction?

I'm repeating all of this from above, but here is a quick summary:

  • TRUTH: We are to focus upon what is true (Phil 4:8)
  • TIME: We are to use our time wisely (Eph 5:18)
  • INSPIRATION: Man's works are not reliable (2 Tim 3:15-16; Col 2:6-8)
  • FOCUS: We are told to meditate on the Word day and night (Psalm 1:1-3; Josh 1:8-9)
  • PATTERN: The Bible was not written in mythology; Jesus only used simple stories to explain specific truths

I don't think those are all the arguments by a long shot. Those are the ones I've mentioned in this discussion.

 

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Nope

Joel Shaffer wrote:

You can expand the argument to anything, but certainly it is easy for us, with all of the sports, past times, etc. to become distracted by the "cares, riches, and pleasures" of this life so we have no time for meditating on the Word day and night. The latter eclipses the former, and should. We can argue that all of these focuses do not draw us away from the Word, or somehow make us better understand it. However, the Word seems to argue otherwise.

So there is no way to do both?  Enjoy God's creation such as sports, past times, and etc... and meditate on God's word?  The view that it "eclipses the former" shows that you may have an underdeveloped theology of what it means to be made in God's image, which is directly connected to the cultural mandate that was given to Adam and his descendants.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but my fear is that you have embraced a more dualistic, gnostic view of life by interpreting these passages about the things of this world ontologically instead or morally.   

Joel, how do you explain how we are to take up our cross and follow Jesus? Does that sound like "enjoy your life and experience all that God wants you to experience as being created in the image of God?" I personally don't think so. The Bible commands us not to love the world, or the things in the world (defined by the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life), further explaining that those things are not of God (1 John 2:16) and are temporary (1 John 2:17).

The Bible does tell us that we can be choked by the cares, riches, and pleasures of this life. How do you correlate that with what you call the cultural mandate that was given to Adam and his descendants (which, though you did not explain, causes me to "fear" about your view of the five mandates in Genesis 1:26-28)?

How do you correlate the "friendship with the world is enmity with God" concept in James 4:4? The last days "lovers of themselves," "lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God," phrases? Can the study of mythology, sports, [insert anything here] be the pursuit of pleasure? Absolutlely. The Ephesians "be filled with the Spirit...redeeming the time because the days are evil," and the correlating "let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly" passages? etc? Where do you see where the general populace and their focuses and activities are inert and in no way impede one's walk with God? How much is too much focus on these "other things" before they become idols, and we begin worshipping (by heart, time, focus, energy, etc.) the creature rather than the Creator?

Dualistic? No. I do believe that there is a god of this world that presents himself as an angel of light, in direct contrast to the True God. I believe that there is truth and that we are commanded to preach the Word (not mythology), because people will be drawn away by their itching ears heaping to themselves teachers (it is not the failing to study, but listening to the wrong teachers). I believe that "men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil." There is light and darkness, and that is all. We were sometimes darkness, now we are light, so we are to walk as children of light. There is the old man and the new man. We are to put off the old man, and we are to put to death our members which are on the earth (Col 3:5). We are to see those things which are above, setting our minds on things above, not on things on the earth. There is so much that says there are two distinct realms. If one doesn't follow Jesus as the light, he walks in darkness.

Is the world evil? I believe creation is cursed. I believe that our motives, intents have to be enlightened and tempered by the Word (Heb 4:12). I believe our hearts are "deceitful and desperately wicked," and we can talk ourselves into justifying most anything, even in the context of religion. I believe that we are not to lean on our own understanding, but we are to acknowledge God in all things. Apart from God's revelation, nothing is clearly interpreted or understood correctly.

When I read of how we are free to do [insert topic here] without regard for all of these concepts taken into account, I believe it is an abuse of liberty. We are saved for good works (Eph 2:10; Titus 2:15), not self fulfillment. That's what Adam pursued. I think we're here to please God, not to pursue what we want, whatever that may be.

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Ken,  I Timothy 6:17-19 17

Ken, 

I Timothy 6:17-19

17 Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

 

In this passage, God is described as richly providing us with everything for our enjoyment (including wealth).    Of course verse 18 tells us that with everything that we have from this world for our enjoyment that we must do good, to be rich in good deeds and be willing to share.  

My point is that there is no platonic dualism about the things of this world coming from Paul in this passage.  They are also for our enjoyment.  

 

Also,  I Timothy 4:1-5

 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Interestingly, even after the fall (which of course distorted everything in the world with sin), Paul clearly teaches a view that verifies the goodness of creation.  He describes everything that God created as good.   Paul is preaching against a form of gnostism that was forbidding certain cultural activities such as marriage and abstaining from certain foods.   

When people quote "Love not the World," I know that it is the sin that has permeated the world (lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life) that John is talking about.     That is why I interpret these passages morally rather than ontologically.  If I interpret them ontologically as well, I am afraid of falling into the category that Paul warns Timothy of in I Timothy 4   

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Mythology or Marriage?

Joel Shaffer wrote:

I Timothy 6:17-19 - Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

In this passage, God is described as richly providing us with everything for our enjoyment (including wealth).    Of course verse 18 tells us that with everything that we have from this world for our enjoyment that we must do good, to be rich in good deeds and be willing to share.  

My point is that there is no platonic dualism about the things of this world coming from Paul in this passage.  They are also for our enjoyment. 

Joel, this passage actually says something different than what you suggest. It tells the wealthy not to put their hope in wealth. They are not to focus on their wealth as an end. The idea that God gave everything to enjoy is modified by these wealthy doing good with their wealth, being rich in good deeds, and to be generous / sharing. The enjoyment is in doing what God would have them do, not what they would want to do with it in some self-focused way. The purpose of the enjoyment is that they might "take hold of the life that is truly life." It is living life, enjoying it, as defined by God, not as defined by self-interest.

Joel Shaffer wrote:

Also,  I Timothy 4:1-5

 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

Interestingly, even after the fall (which of course distorted everything in the world with sin), Paul clearly teaches a view that verifies the goodness of creation.  He describes everything that God created as good.   Paul is preaching against a form of gnostism that was forbidding certain cultural activities such as marriage and abstaining from certain foods.   

When people quote "Love not the World," I know that it is the sin that has permeated the world (lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life) that John is talking about.     That is why I interpret these passages morally rather than ontologically.  If I interpret them ontologically as well, I am afraid of falling into the category that Paul warns Timothy of in I Timothy 4.

Joel, who here is forbidding anyone to marry? I thought we were discussing the value of mythology. (For the record, I affirm God's plan of marriage. I've been married for 31 years. My wife and I have 15 children.) I'm not talking about food either (though the sins of gluttony or just living to eat for the enjoyment of eating I believe would be governed by the Word.)

The world is cursed, affected by sin. However, that isn't the issue - our issue. I'm not saying that matter is evil. It certainly is impacted by evil. The big issue is the deceptive nature of our own hearts. We must view things through God's revealed Word, not by means of our own faulty, self-deceiving, right-in-our-own-eyes, sin-infected hearts. It is how we approach the world (via our eyes, our flesh, our pride). It is the evil world system (not the physical world) that is the issue. It is a moral interpretation of 1 John 2:15-17, but it understands that all we do is to be governed and directed by God's revealed Word, not our own self-defined beliefs. Our enjoyment is not to be defined by us, or in some open way when the Bible most definitely directs us how to use our time, focus our minds, etc. That would be taking one truth at the expense of all of the rest. (See my previous post for a larger list.)

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Dave Gilbert wrote: Teaching

Dave Gilbert wrote:

Teaching from books based on observation of Scripture is another. Sorry Greg, I don't agree with the concept of needing anything else besides Scripture to show us what Scripture means, or "news ways in which to see it". To me, that equals, " I get my teaching and knowledge from the Bible plus "Rev." So-and-So's interpretation ( or commentary, etc. )".  I don't intentionally wish to offend, but rather to place my trust in Scripture itself. Men are fallible, God's word is not.

 

As for Paul ( writing by inspiration of the Holy Ghost ) requesting "books and parchments"...keep in mind that books are also folios or bindings of pages of some type that could also just as well have been blank, while parchments themselves are loose pages. For Paul to request them from someone while he was in prison probably meant he was going to do some writing while he was there.

 

 

Dave.

Well, I for one am very thankful for the many resources that are available to us today, resources which the Holy Spirit uses to help us better understand Scripture.

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Not misusing this world

Kevin,
I believe it is 1 Cor 7:31 where Paul implies that there are valid uses of the present world, even while it is possible to abuse it. In the context, it would have been a perfect opportunity for Paul to decry anything other than prayer and Bible study as inferior pursuits, but such a declaration is conspicuously absent.
I have yet to hear anyone suggest that mythological fiction can or should replace Scripture as the source of truth. Any truth found in such manmade works certainly originates in Scripture.
you still have not answered my question about what, if any, activities other than Bible study are acceptable according to your stated standard. For instance, is it alright to season your food? I mean, if you season it, you might enjoy it and you could possibly become a glutton. Should our goal be to make our meals as bland and unenjoyable as possible to avoid the risk?

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Arguing Against Unstated Claim

pvawter wrote:
Kevin, I believe it is 1 Cor 7:31 where Paul implies that there are valid uses of the present world, even while it is possible to abuse it. In the context, it would have been a perfect opportunity for Paul to decry anything other than prayer and Bible study as inferior pursuits, but such a declaration is conspicuously absent.

No one has stated this. I have to work, mow my lawn, eat, etc. The arguments are clear above (I even gave a list). It is possible, to have wrong focuses, which are distractions or time wasters instead of focusing upon what God clearly says should have our attention.

pvawter wrote:
I have yet to hear anyone suggest that mythological fiction can or should replace Scripture as the source of truth. Any truth found in such manmade works certainly originates in Scripture. you still have not answered my question about what, if any, activities other than Bible study are acceptable according to your stated standard. For instance, is it alright to season your food? I mean, if you season it, you might enjoy it and you could possibly become a glutton. Should our goal be to make our meals as bland and unenjoyable as possible to avoid the risk?
Again, no one has stated this. The article we are discussing suggests that mythology can be used to "reset" or "recover" someone's thinking, suggesting that the Word Itself is unable to be the Power it claims to be. That is not replacing Scripture, but it certainly undermines it. It does not argue in anyway against enjoying things. My objection relates specifically to the context of the article. I do not think that mythology is necessary or helpful in the study of the Bible, nor can it be.

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Clarification Please

Greg Long wrote:

Well, I for one am very thankful for the many resources that are available to us today, resources which the Holy Spirit uses to help us better understand Scripture.

Greg, for clarification within the context of the article in which these discussions are happening, would those resources which you use to help you better understand Scripture include mythology, such as The Lord of the Rings series? If so, how do they help you better understand Scripture?

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Again, I was only addressing

Again, I was only addressing Dave's argument that all we need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. But we are probably having a separate conversation from the main thread so I will leave that alone.

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Joel, this passage actually

Joel, this passage actually says something different than what you suggest. It tells the wealthy not to put their hope in wealth. They are not to focus on their wealth as an end. The idea that God gave everything to enjoy is modified by these wealthy doing good with their wealth, being rich in good deeds, and to be generous / sharing. The enjoyment is in doing what God would have them do, not what they would want to do with it in some self-focused way. The purpose of the enjoyment is that they might "take hold of the life that is truly life." It is living life, enjoying it, as defined by God, not as defined by self-interest.

 Kevin,

Here is what Dr. Craig L. Blomberg, professor of N.T. at Denver Seminary had to say in his book, Neither Poverty or Riches: A Biblical Theology of Material Possessions.  “Paul also readily acknowledges how wealth can be a blessing. God ‘richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment’ (6:17b) We may enjoy the fleeting pleasures that wealth can provide for a short time in this life, but we dare not put our trust in material possessions. Instead we must lay up treasures in heaven ‘as a firm foundation for the coming age.’………Again Paul is challenging the conventional Hellenistic system of patronage and reciprocity.  He is telling those who have this world’s goods not to count on being able to buy the favors of others in return.  But one way in which he does draw on convention is to command rich people to be generous benefactors themselves (6:18)  There are four terms in verse 18 that all reinforce the same command: ‘to do good’, ‘to be rich in good deeds’, ‘to be generous’, and to be ‘willing to share’ their material possessions."

Another commentary I checked out, Walvoord and Zuck’s The Bible Knowledge Commentary had this to say about this passage.   “Paul had dealt with those who did not possess wealth, but who deeply desired it (vs. 3-10) Now he addressed those who had it and instructed them as to what their attitude should be toward it.  They are not to be arrogant as if their wealth is deserved.  Nor must they put their hope in wealth, which so uncertain and transient.  This is perhaps the the greatest temptation to wealthy Christians, into which category most modern Western believers fit.  Christians should put their hope in God, who is the Source of material things.  Again material possessions are among those things God has given for our enjoyment.  Yet Christians must not merely consume material possessions selfishly.  Possesions are to be shared with those who have less.  Thus Timothy was to charge the well-off to do good, to be rich, not ultimately in money, but in good deeds."

Both these interpretations coincide with what I am saying.   That God has given everything on this earth for our temporary enjoyment.  That there is nothing wrong with enjoying this world’s resources, but that we also need to generously share our resources with those in need so that we can lay up treasures in heaven.    I have never seen any commentary on this passage that held your interpretation that implied that ‘God richly provides us everything for our enjoyment’   the enjoyment referred to giving.  That enjoyment of what God has given us is on this earth is somehow wrong or insignificant because we need to hate the world.  

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As for I Timothy 4:1-5, of

As for I Timothy 4:1-5, of course I do not believe that you somehow hold that marriage and eating food are wrong.   But there is a deeper principle at work here.   Let me again quote Walvoord and Zuck’s Bible Knowledge Commentary.  “Paul went to the heart of the dualistic error by stating that matter is not inherently evil: it is rather part of what God created (I Tim 6:17b) Hence those who believe and who know the truth can gratefully (4:4) receive and use the things God created, which were designed to be received “for partaking.”  Contrary to the teaching of the errorists, everything God created is good.  Here Paul echoed God’s own verdict (Gen 1:31).  Whereas the false teachers were intent on “forbidding” and “abstaining” (I Tim. 4:3), Paul said that nothing is to be rejected----nothing that is, that God created.  Man can abuse what God has created, as adultery is an abuse of the marital sexual relationship, and gluttony is an abuse of a normal appetite for food.  Such abuses should certainly be rejected.  But God’s creations themselves are all good and should be received with thanksgiving, not with taboos.  All of the seemingly ordinary things of life can then become extraordinary as they are consecrated by the Word of God and prayer.  In the light of the scriptures A Christian recognizes God’s good hand behind the things provided, and offers thanksgiving to the Lord.  In this way the ordinary things so easily taken for granted (some of which are forbidden by errorists) become sanctified as occasions of worship and praise.”  

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“all we do is to be governed

“all we do is to be governed and directed by God's revealed Word, not our own self-defined beliefs. Our enjoyment is not to be defined by us, or in some open way when the Bible most definitely directs us how to use our time, focus our minds, etc. That would be taking one truth at the expense of all of the rest. (See my previous post for a larger list.)”  

I would totally agree.  I am not defining my enjoyment from myself, but actually from God’s Word says.  But from your definition 'all we do is to be governed and directed by God’s revealed Word, not our own self-defined beliefs,’  is it possible that you may even be neglecting a few aspects of the cultural mandate (however having 15 kids, you certainly are following that aspect of the cultural mandate Smile) and may possibly be embracing an unbiblical dualism that is not found in scripture, but has more in common with Greek platonic philosophy (Spiritual over matter)?  

 

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Kevin Subra wrote: I'm

Kevin Subra wrote:

I'm repeating all of this from above, but here is a quick summary:

  • TRUTH: We are to focus upon what is true (Phil 4:8)
  • TIME: We are to use our time wisely (Eph 5:18)
  • INSPIRATION: Man's works are not reliable (2 Tim 3:15-16; Col 2:6-8)
  • FOCUS: We are told to meditate on the Word day and night (Psalm 1:1-3; Josh 1:8-9)
  • PATTERN: The Bible was not written in mythology; Jesus only used simple stories to explain specific truths

I don't think those are all the arguments by a long shot. Those are the ones I've mentioned in this discussion.

 

f

I'm sure you think I'm being obtuse, but you have asserted that nothing other than Scripturally defined and encouraged activities are acceptable for the believer. Your argument seems to require total abstinence from all non-biblical pursuits, doesn't it?

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Gray box

God could have created a gray box for the human race to "have dominion" over. But He didn't. Instead, he gave him a rich and fertile garden and told man to cultivate it. There was no Bible then, no Great Commission, no church.

And yet God said it was "very good."

What does that mean to us now? It means that the Bible and the Great Commission are means to a higher end: the glory of God through His creation. The Fall sets up Redemption as a huge part of that... to the praise of the glory of His grace.

But none of that reverses or nullifies God's heart for a people that knows Him, loves Him, serves Him by cultivating the creation--by using God-given imagination and energy to make new things out of what He has provided.

So the question is not "How can we prove fiction has value?" It's "Can we prove that any broad category of human creative output does not have value?" We have to frame the question in the truth or there's little chance of answering it correctly.

Secondly, I zeroed in some questions earlier for Kevin, one of which was along the lines of "Are fiction and Scripture inherently competitive?" I'm still not sure I can fairly summarize your answer, Kevin.

  • But if they are inherently competitive, then we should pile all the fiction we've got--Les Miserables included--and burn it.  
  • If they are not inherently competitive, then the question becomes what are the criteria for evaluating good uses of fiction and poor uses of fiction, or what are the criteria for evaluating good works of fiction from bad works of fiction. Which leads to the question, why should fiction that is longer and more imaginative be regarded as inferior to fiction that is shorter and less imaginative?

But going back to the beginning of the argument--what basis do we have for thinking fiction is inherently competitive with Scripture? Nobody reads the Bible 7x24. And it's clear that Paul did not read only the Bible. But even apart from reading, our creation tells us that we're intended to engage in other activities, especially creative ones--not just because we have to, but because it's "very good."

So there appears to be no valid argument in this thread for rejecting fiction in general or for rejecting fantasy fiction in particular.

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Correction on Augustine

Earlier in this thread, I posted some thoughts based on Augustine's De doctrina christiana as to how extra-biblical literature can be helpful in understanding the Bible. I should note, however, that Augustine did not believe in the usefulness of fiction. In fact, he thinks of it as a lie. You can read his argument in the Soliloquies

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Oh well...

He was messed up on infant baptism, too. Smile

(It is almost endlessly interesting to me though, the different ways people construe the term "lie." What seems obvious is that we need a word for what people are doing when they communicate information that (a) they know is false (b) they intend to pass off as truth. It also seems obvious to me that in English the word for this is "lie" and that the term does not apply to (a) info people don't know is false or (b) there is no intent to deceive. But Augustine had this knack for looking at things very differently from most people!)

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Obviously

Augustine was a fan of Lawrence Block.
 

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Types of lies

Augustine was well aware of the different types of falsehood. He put into the Western theological vocabulary the distinction between fallax (unintentional falsehood) and mendax (intentional falsehood). In Contra Mendacium​, he condemns all lies, including several types of "charitable lies" that some Christians had accepted. He even interprets lies by Old Testament saints as allegories. It's not entirely clear why Augustine thinks this way, but his strong perception of God as Truth and his understanding of language as a system of real signification has something to do with it. Fiction is a lie, because its signifiers do not point to a real, signified thing. Some of the thinking seems to me to parallel Bauder's ideas against theater. Augustine's teaching on lying, but not on fiction as lying, became the majority report in Western theology for 1,000 years. 

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my lowly contribution

worth not much, I know ...

 

fantastical elements used in the Bible, like in Judges 9 where the trees, vine and bramble are conversing with each other in a made up story...

 

neither here nor there, but i think our imaginative faculties are linked to our ability to have faith and believe. if we could never imagine something outside of what we see, could we have faith?

anyway, that was all dusted off from Anne, the creative writing major, lo, these many years ago ...

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Thx

Charlie wrote:

Augustine was well aware of the different types of falsehood. He put into the Western theological vocabulary the distinction between fallax (unintentional falsehood) and mendax (intentional falsehood). In Contra Mendacium​, he condemns all lies, including several types of "charitable lies" that some Christians had accepted. He even interprets lies by Old Testament saints as allegories. It's not entirely clear why Augustine thinks this way, but his strong perception of God as Truth and his understanding of language as a system of real signification has something to do with it. Fiction is a lie, because its signifiers do not point to a real, signified thing. Some of the thinking seems to me to parallel Bauder's ideas against theater. Augustine's teaching on lying, but not on fiction as lying, became the majority report in Western theology for 1,000 years.

Great info. I didn't know Aug. did that much work on the topic. 

I take it his views on fiction are not central to his teaching on truth/lying as a whole... since the intellectual/theological tradition after him was comfortable excising that part?

(Interesting stuff on fallax and mendax here. ... in their view, looks like both fallax and medax are intentional but the intentions are different)

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What of What the Bible DOES Say?

pvawter wrote:

I'm sure you think I'm being obtuse, but you have asserted that nothing other than Scripturally defined and encouraged activities are acceptable for the believer. Your argument seems to require total abstinence from all non-biblical pursuits, doesn't it?

I'm not sure anyone can totally abstain from all non-biblical pursuits (is there a list somewhere?). However, the Bible certainly and clearly points out what we are to be focusing upon. Where you draw the line is probably well away from "how much can I be distracted and still be focusing on what God clearly wants me to be doing?" I think the argument of total abstinence misses the point. It is a direction and intention and purpose.

I would say that the Bible is much more narrow than we tend to be about how we spend all of our time (or even our words, since we will give an account for every idle word). Are you arguing that we just spend our lives being entertained, instead of "losing our life" for Christ's sake? I don't get how you can argue that (and I doubt if you would).

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Monkeys on Backs

Aaron Blumer wrote:

God could have created a gray box for the human race to "have dominion" over. But He didn't. Instead, he gave him a rich and fertile garden and told man to cultivate it. There was no Bible then, no Great Commission, no church.

And yet God said it was "very good."

You infer this, but "very good" was before sin entered into the world. Sin changed everything, including our focus.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
What does that mean to us now? It means that the Bible and the Great Commission are means to a higher end: the glory of God through His creation. The Fall sets up Redemption as a huge part of that... to the praise of the glory of His grace.

But none of that reverses or nullifies God's heart for a people that knows Him, loves Him, serves Him by cultivating the creation--by using God-given imagination and energy to make new things out of what He has provided.

I beg to differ. You will find no mandate to "cultivate creation" developed in the Word. You find that men are tempted (and usually yield to) the worship of creation (worshipping the creature rather than the Creator). Jesus did not push the cultivation of creation. He pushed the making of disciples, the taking up of one's cross, and the losing of one's life for His sake. Paul did not push the cultivation of creation. He pushed redeeming the time (because the days are evil), and practiced such warning people night and day with tears. (And you can without doubt repeat this sentiment for John, Peter, and Jude, and probably others.)

Aaron Blumer wrote:
So the question is not "How can we prove fiction has value?" It's "Can we prove that any broad category of human creative output does not have value?" We have to frame the question in the truth or there's little chance of answering it correctly.
I disagree here too, Aaron. Either question is answered by nothing but speculation, unless you desire to use what the Bible does say, rather than what the Bible doesn't say. We can explore the far reaches of the universe, arguing that it might yield some value some time somewhere. However, it misses the point of what God has said we are to be busy doing and focusing upon.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
Secondly, I zeroed in some questions earlier for Kevin, one of which was along the lines of "Are fiction and Scripture inherently competitive?" I'm still not sure I can fairly summarize your answer, Kevin.

  • But if they are inherently competitive, then we should pile all the fiction we've got--Les Miserables included--and burn it.  
  • If they are not inherently competitive, then the question becomes what are the criteria for evaluating good uses of fiction and poor uses of fiction, or what are the criteria for evaluating good works of fiction from bad works of fiction. Which leads to the question, why should fiction that is longer and more imaginative be regarded as inferior to fiction that is shorter and less imaginative?
  

Aaron, the primary argument is against thinking fiction helps to reset or restore us to allow us to understand the Bible. THAT is the argument, and my objection. You are arguing against something that is not my point. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that it is unable, without fiction, to effect change in the minds of men. Man-written fiction is not the Word, and so it is most certainly inferior to the Word. Regarding the use of fiction in ways that God neither used, discussed, or mandated, I would say the monkey is on your back to say that we should use it. As I have stated elsewhere, this necessarily causes us, in my reasoning, to be distracted from the focus we have been commanded to have on the Word. At what point is the reading and study of fiction something that takes us from what we are to be doing, thinking upon, etc.? I don't have that answer, but I don't suspect that becoming experts in fiction takes us down the right path.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
But going back to the beginning of the argument--what basis do we have for thinking fiction is inherently competitive with Scripture? Nobody reads the Bible 7x24.
I thought that was a requirement for SI staff. ;>D The Bible doesn't say "read the Bible 7x24, does it? It does say, however, we are to meditate on it day and night. Our minds are to be occupied with the truth. Is that 100% obtainable? No, but focusing upon [insert whatever past time here] can most certainly distract us from doing so. Does that make any particular past time wrong? No (and that's not the point of my primary objection). It is that all things are to be done with a proper focus. Once we become absorbed in God's creation rather than God, we are idolatrous, even if it's enjoying creation in any of its forms.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
And it's clear that Paul did not read only the Bible.
 

I don't think you can say this with certainty. We do know that he was trained as a Pharisee prior to his conversion. We do know that he was aware of the writings of his time. However, to say that he read things other than the Bible has no support. Using this is like using Paul's references to sports (as a means of teaching) to suggest that he was a die-hard sports fan. One does not require the other. Interestingly, Paul doesn't exhort us to study Homer's Odyssey or other such work in order to be able to have our minds reset or restored, or discuss the characters in any fiction available to him in his day.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
But even apart from reading, our creation tells us that we're intended to engage in other activities, especially creative ones--not just because we have to, but because it's "very good."
Prove this from the NT, my friend. You are building things from a pre-fall mindset.

Aaron Blumer wrote:
So there appears to be no valid argument in this thread for rejecting fiction in general or for rejecting fantasy fiction in particular.
You still argue a point I have not made in my primary objection. However, I believe the monkey is still on your back (sorry for using that twice - I'm not very creative) to argue that we should be using our time, mental energies, and creative abilities on such things.

[/quote]

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Kevin Subra wrote: As I have

Kevin Subra wrote:

As I have stated elsewhere, this necessarily causes us, in my reasoning, to be distracted from the focus we have been commanded to have on the Word. At what point is the reading and study of fiction something that takes us from what we are to be doing, thinking upon, etc.? I don't have that answer, but I don't suspect that becoming experts in fiction takes us down the right path.

Kevin,

sorry to steal a quote from your response to Aaron, but I think it appropriately illustrates why I've taken issue with your response to this article. While you maintain that you don't believe complete abstinence to be the right response to fiction, you declare that it "necessarily causes us...to be distracted from the focus we have been commanded to have on the Word."

You are correct that I would not argue that we should spend our lives being entertained instead of losing our lives for Christ's sake, but my argument from the beginning is that there is not a necessary conflict between the two. In other words, losing our lives for Christ doesn't necessitate a stark and somber existence.

I do agree with you that 21st century Christians face a powerful temptation to make entertainment their idol, but that has been true of men all through human history. If it is not entertainment, then it is something else. We ought to warn each other to beware of the danger of idolatry, and since almost anything can supplant God as supreme in the believer's life, we ought to constantly evaluate ourselves in light of God's Word. This includes the influence of any and all entertainment we enjoy.

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Anne Sokol wrote:neither

Anne Sokol wrote:

neither here nor there, but i think our imaginative faculties are linked to our ability to have faith and believe. if we could never imagine something outside of what we see, could we have faith?

anyway, that was all dusted off from Anne, the creative writing major, lo, these many years ago ...

 

Mrs. Sokol,

 

If you spend enough time on SI, rest assured that somebody will come along and post something to the effect that your ministry or chosen field of study (unless it is straight Bible) has no place in the ministry of the current church.

(Says the music major and Minister of Church Music of 25 years experience in churches from Illinois to Florida. Smile)

 

God bless us all.

 

Rev Karl

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OK, Then....???

I'm fine with what you say. My "necessarily" argument is simply one of capacity or logistics rather than anything else. If we busy ourselves with or occupy ourselves with something such as fiction, how can it not keep us from focusing on the Word? If I am to be meditating on the Word day and night, how does this happen if I am meditating upon something else fictional? (I'm asking you, not arguing against you.)

Another question, which poses itself (in my mind): Why, if I avoid reading fiction to enhance, reset, or resolve my mind regarding Scripture, does that only leave me with a somber existence? Is Scripture that empty to you? I find it the most fascinating book on earth, and have found nothing more deep or more exciting. (And my argument has primarily been against the premise of the article, not against fiction per se. You and Aaron have been the ones pursuing the all or nothing fiction fight.)

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erm

i don't have time or inclination to get deeply into this discussion, and i was reading the one with hannah and the creativity and home business thingy too,

and i don't know, kevin subra, sure fiction and creativity can all be used for sinful purposes, just like s-x or food or cars ...

God is the creator, it is the first thing we see him doing, the first way we are His (redemption is the second). we create too. is it the main way we see our lives? sure not. but is it a valid perspective to include in our life view? sure.

i'm home schooling my kids, i read them a made-up story about birds to teach science concepts--The Burgess Bird Book. I read them Aesop's fables to teach moral sayings, we read stories from history about Alexander the Great, for example, I'm sure some of it is made up.

most of a good education is reading widely. . . . .

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Erm?

Anne Sokol wrote:

i don't have time or inclination to get deeply into this discussion, and i was reading the one with hannah and the creativity and home business thingy too,

and i don't know, kevin subra, sure fiction and creativity can all be used for sinful purposes, just like s-x or food or cars ...

God is the creator, it is the first thing we see him doing, the first way we are His (redemption is the second). we create too. is it the main way we see our lives? sure not. but is it a valid perspective to include in our life view? sure.

i'm home schooling my kids, i read them a made-up story about birds to teach science concepts--The Burgess Bird Book. I read them Aesop's fables to teach moral sayings, we read stories from history about Alexander the Great, for example, I'm sure some of it is made up.

most of a good education is reading widely. . . . .

Erm? I must have missed that term in my public school education. ;>D

I have not argued against using a made-up story to teach about birds. Or to teach kids to read, etc. My objection (have I said this before) is with the premise of the article, where fiction can be used to reset or resolve in some way that Scripture cannot and therefore suggests that Scripture is insufficient.

Would you agree, Anne, that we are to focus on some things, which would necessarily keep us from focusing on other things? If your kids are reading about birds, their not watching TV, or doing math for that matter. That's my point on that.

I do not want to cross threads. I'll let you and Hannah continue on that discussion. I promised to bow out. I see no mandate or suggestion in Scripture that our pursuits should be in that direction (as an end in itself), and I see lots of clear commands to do all sorts of other things. I just have to opt to lean in that direction.

I think the discussion misses my objection to this thread, and really doesn't address my arguments in this thread, so I'll just leave what I've said to stand.

Anne Sokol wrote:

most of a good education is reading widely. . . . .

I'll wait for some Biblical support on that one. ;>D I've heard "readers are leaders" too, but that doesn't necessarily mean readers are Biblical leaders. In the mean time, I think Col 2:8 has enough to say. I'm dumb enough to need much more time in the Word, and I'm impressionable enough with a Bible-verified wicked and deceitful heart not to trust anything but God's Word to point me in the right direction (and even then I get it wrong much of the time!).

 

 

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erm, yes, erm, it's a technical term .. erm ... :)

Kevin Subra wrote:
 I have not argued against using a made-up story to teach about birds. Or to teach kids to read, etc. My objection (have I said this before) is with the premise of the article, where fiction can be used to reset or resolve in some way that Scripture cannot and therefore suggests that Scripture is insufficient.
can you find the exact quotes in the article that you are referring to?

 

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this is a little unfair

Kevin Subra wrote:

Anne Sokol wrote:

most of a good education is reading widely. . . . .

I'll wait for some Biblical support on that one. ;>D I've heard "readers are leaders" too, but that doesn't necessarily mean readers are Biblical leaders. In the mean time, I think Col 2:8 has enough to say. I'm dumb enough to need much more time in the Word, and I'm impressionable enough with a Bible-verified wicked and deceitful heart not to trust anything but God's Word to point me in the right direction (and even then I get it wrong much of the time!).
i'm not sure why you are implying that you're somehow dumber than the average Christian, too gullible and naive to be able to read things other than the Bible. We all depend on the Word of God and the teaching of the Holy Spirit to guide us. There is a certain wonderful joy in knowing the truth and being able to enjoy many other things because we know the truth.

i really enjoy being a grown up and having discernment and being able to read widely and glean helpful things out of what I read. ... A few weeks ago a read a booklet by Henri Nouwen (sp?) about fundraising, he is some catholic dude, i don't know much about him, and there are objectionable elements to his life I later learned. What he wrote also wasn't perfect theologically. But, God used it to help me probably more than anything in my life, to date, on the subject of fundraising. And I'm glad I have the discerning maturity to read it and get the help from it I needed.

 

ps. read all that with a nice tone of voice, nothing intended to be mean or snarky.

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Premise

The premise of the OP is that a constant diet of anything tends toward an insensitivity to that thing. The Bible can become a chore, a textbook.  If I understand him correctly, he is not assigning any kind of spiritual illumination or eternal value, so to speak, to 'mythology', or fiction. What he asserts is that we use books other than the Bible to broaden our perspective, our knowledge base, and gain a better appreciation of Scriptures. As in, sometimes when you 'walk away' from something, and come back to it, your mind is 'clearer'.

Do you (general 'you') ever stop thinking about something in order to gain clarity? I do that all the time. Of course, sometimes clarity comes at 2am, which is very inconvenient.

So, I can see his point. I attended a Christian high school and then Bible college, and there were times I took the Bible for granted and did not view it as the divine Scriptures, but as just another assignment. We are faulty humans, and can become desensitized to anything of which we have a steady, unbroken diet. It is reasonable to propose that Scripture is also one of those things that we can take for granted. An appreciation for good literature can increase our appreciation for the Bible by refreshing our perspective. I certainly gain a further appreciation for creation every time I read anything science related- Isaac Asimov or Brian Greene- and I think it is entirely possible that whether we "eat, or drink, or whatsoever we do", we CAN do it in the name of the Lord.

I'm currently reading The Shadow of a Great Rock by Harold Bloom. This guy is as lost as a golf ball in high weeds, but in this book, he asserts that the King James Bible is "the sublime summit of literature in English". Obviously we know that the Bible is much more than that, but I think my point is that we can gain an appreciation for Scriptures by broadening our literary horizons. I wouldn't know what Mr. Bloom was talking about if I didn't have some knowledge of Shakespeare and other literary classics. The Bible compared to any other book that has ever been produced is a supernatural masterpiece, for lack of a more glowing term at the moment. But by that very statement, I have to have something to compare it to in order to make any sort of comparison. Assertions based on limited knowledge do not lend any credibility to one's argument. 

 

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I beg to differ. You will

I beg to differ. You will find no mandate to "cultivate creation" developed in the Word. You find that men are tempted (and usually yield to) the worship of creation (worshipping the creature rather than the Creator). Jesus did not push the cultivation of creation. He pushed the making of disciples, the taking up of one's cross, and the losing of one's life for His sake. Paul did not push the cultivation of creation. He pushed redeeming the time (because the days are evil), and practiced such warning people night and day with tears. (And you can without doubt repeat this sentiment for John, Peter, and Jude, and probably others.)

 

Why would the Bible need to develop it?  Jesus and the Apostles had no need to push for developing culture, because humanity never stopped developing cultures.  Adam and his descendants obeyed the cultural mandate!  Its part of what it means to be made in God's image. Rather, Jesus and the Apostles pushed for gospel-centered disciple-making because it addresses the main problem within humanity, which is a depraved sin nature within all of us, which has corrupted and perverted all cultures within humanity.     Maybe I am not really understanding you, but it seems as if your arguments about fiction, about the world in general can create a false dichotomy.  That we can't enjoy aspects of what has been cultivated in creation because we need to die to self, hate this world, and redeem the time that we have.  Why can't we do all of it for the glory of God?  Whether we are doing life-on-life discipleship of someone in our churches, or having fun with our family at a college football game, or enjoying reading the Lord of the Rings, or going to a Shakespeare play in the park, or sharing the gospel with a neighbor?     

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Use-of-time test

Kevin wrote:
 If we busy ourselves with or occupy ourselves with something such as fiction, how can it not keep us from focusing on the Word? If I am to be meditating on the Word day and night, how does this happen if I am meditating upon something else fictional? (I'm asking you, not arguing against you.)

"Meditate day and night" does not mean "never stop to do anything else." It's about consistently weaving it into your life, not making it your life. (BTW, reading more widely also helps us recognize figures of speech).

"Does it make me stop reading my Bible while I'm doing it?" doesn't work as a test for the use of time. Some things we must stop reading the Bible to do:

  • Pray
  • Sing hymns
  • Work
  • Play game with kids
  • Visit sick in hospital
  • Brush teeth
  • Eat

Well, you get the idea. But I'll throw one more in: every time Jesus used a parable (fiction) He missed an opportunity to directly quote the Old Testament.