Waking Up After QAnon: How Can the Church Respond?

While we wait to see if the article comes back, I have a question for anyone who cares to answer...

Has anyone actually encountered QAnon or similar conspiracy theories in their pastoral ministries? Before Jan. 6, the only reason I even knew it existed was because people kept telling me how important it was that I denounce it. All the real, flesh-and-blood Trump supporters that I know had either never heard of it (again, pre-Jan. 6) or dismissed it as non-sense.

To be clear, I think it's a real and dangerous problem. I just have never had to deal with it. 

So, has anyone actually had to deal with this outside of the Internet and if so, how did you handle it?

Honestly, I'm not sure how QAnon conspiracy theories are different than the "election theft" conspiracy theories. If they are one in the same, then yes, there were several people in my congregation who believed the election was stolen from Trump. They even asked for prayer that God would expose the election fraud and punish the democrats.

I categorize these conspiracy theories similarly to what Paul warns about with Jewish myths and genealogies.

QANON is a kook theory about a secret cabal of child traffickers

The Election problems are obvious. In the six months before the elections Democrats went to court all over the country to get election rules changed "because of COVID." These are factual events, not conspiracies. The idea was to loosen the restrictions on voting by mail and absentee "for public health." The result was that many ballots were accepted this time that NEVER would have been counted before. That is what Trump was mad about, and what he talked about from the start of the COVID panic. This QAnon stuff was internet kookism that had nothing to do with Trump's key argument. I honestly don't think Trump even knows what QAnon is. Some people took Trump's obvious points about election concerns and mixed them with QAnon and things like the militia movements, and that's who broke into the capitol. The regular Trump supporter didn't do that.

Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Christ Plante... none of this is QAnon.

Let me say it stronger. It is a flat out LIE to say election fraud belief equals QAnon. Period. I would appreciate an apology for saying that.

Aaron Blumer wrote:

Fact: 'stolen election' is a conspiracy theory, it is a shared belief among QAnoners, and its association with QAnon is strong (e.g., actively promoted by many of the same people.)

No matter what you believe about either the "stolen election" or QAnon, the logic doesn't change.  The fact that the "stolen election" theory may be held by many or most (or even all) QAnon followers neither makes those equivalent, nor requires those who believe that the election was "stolen" to have anything to do with QAnon.  (And although this should be obvious, it also doesn't mean that those who firmly believe there were election issues that still need to be investigated believe that the election was "stolen.")

Mormons hold some of the same beliefs that orthodox Christians do.  The fact that those beliefs are shared in common does not make the Christians Mormon either.  This is kind of the same thinking the mass media uses to declare that all evangelical Christians are essentially equivalent to people like Jerry Falwell Jr. and believe and practice the same excesses.

A church (IFB) that I was in in the 70's had quite a bit of Illuminati conspiracy theorists. It was never preached from the pulpit, but some leaders believed in it.

I have encountered QAnon and studied it extensively.  There is a lot of overlap between conspiracy theories and faith.  It tends to suck those from our congregations into these theories.  We preach from the pulpit that the world is against them, there is a war between good and evil that cannot be seen, the world is against God.....  Some preachers and news hosts and websites espouse that the liberals are against them.   There is a secret war from the far left, the world is against Trump.....  So you can see how this plays out amongst many in Christendom.  I am not saying they are the same, but they play on the same elements.  There are mature Christians and weak Christians, and this plays on certain elements of some congregations in churches.  One way that you can see what is taking place in your church is to look at the social media feeds and see what type of current is taking place.  If you have someone posting about child trafficking a lot, than they could be drawn to QAnon.  While not all those who believe in the "stolen election" narrative are QAnon supporters, it is a key theme of QAnon.  They believed that on January 6th they were to storm the capital, so that Trump could execute on the coming "Storm" and seize power and expose the cabal of pedophiles.  That believe it is this group that stealing the election.  Many christians are pulled into much of the stolen election unknowingly not realizing that much of the proofs and concerns that they have are created from the QAnon groups.

I've encountered Illuminati stuff too in IFB . It seems to rear its head more in   hyper-fundy churches. 

Mark in PA it's the PA Republicans who instituted  it and more Republicans voted for it  than Democrats.  It was upheld by the PA Supreme Court.  In the Texas Lawsuit the US Supreme Court said we have no standing to get involved because it's a State matter.  Arizona has had Mail in voting for 70 years.   I don't know about the other states in question.  So where was the big Democrat conspiracy to institute voting by Mail.  
 

Mark the only voter fraud with Mail in voting on record in the last two elections was done be Republicans in a NC Congressional Race and in PA race.  So Mark where is your basis to throw stones at the Democrats other than  repeating the usual Trump Baloney that's just like the Qnon Baloney.  It's all BALONEY.  Trump is a big lying comman period.  
 

Mark I suggest you watch the interview on CNN of Congressman Cauthorne no matter how you thinks it's Fake News.  Can't say it's fake news because you can watch him speak yourself.  Cauthorne tries all the usual Trump mass voter fraud fraud baloney and the interviewer whittles down all his BALONEY Trump lies.  At the end Cauthorne concedes no mass voter fraud and BIDEN WON THE ELECTION FAIR AND SQUARE.  
 

The above all being said what is really scary to me is a Bulk of the Evangelicals would have no problem with Trump overthrowing our Government and making himself President for life   A lot of the Evangelicals involved in the assault hailed from that Charismatic Network led by men claiming  to be Apostles and Prophets   These Prophets claimed God directly spoke to them and said Donald Trump will be the President over Biden   This group are also Domiomists and believe making Evangelical Christianity a state religion ie A Christian Saudi Arabia   
 

I say a lot of Evangelicals would support Trump being President for life even though the above violates the first Amendment in spades ♠️  I say at what price to get abortion and gay marriage outlawed   You think Trump's White Supremacist Thugs are not going to want a free hand in putting the African Americans and other minorities in there place   I say Id take 100 Bidens if freely elected over a Trump Dictatorship where Jim Crow would return but we got abortion outlawed and we are jailing those gays   
 

Mark I'd have to question any Christian  voting for Trump the second time after with his own words said the White Supremacists were his guys ie  Proud Boys Stand Back and Stand By   Mark Trump also supported the Michigan Militia led by Men my age   I recognized them in the interview Mark   They were prior associates with Timothy McVeigh and Company   McVeigh was a follower of the Turner Diaries and killed 182 of my fellow employees and in that count were 10 Babies and 10 Toddlers    There was three main groups back then   The Identity Church the Sword and Something and the Posse Comitatis  The Posse were the Tax Protestors and thats who I dealt with   The others were blowing up abortion clinics and shooting Abortion Doctors By throwing in with Donald a second time the Evangelicals threw in with this crowd  We should all think about that before we so quickly point the finger and say Demon Democrats  I say the Christian Right's sin is throwing in with this lot   Why do you think Senator Portman quite   Portman knows that the Senators who have no problem with White Supremacists and killers are not going to convict Donald Trump their Demigod  
 

I'm supporting Chris Christie if he runs in 2024   Christie said if he was a Senator he would vote to convict Trump   If they can't convict Trump why bother with any impeachments  any more   Sorry state of affairs for the Republican Party   Like I said I'd take a 100 Bidens freely elected before I'd take Trump or a Trump copy

Joeb wrote:

Mark in PA it's the PA Republicans who instituted  it and more Republicans voted for it  than Democrats.  It was upheld by the PA Supreme Court.  In the Texas Lawsuit the US Supreme Court said we have no standing to get involved because it's a State matter.  Arizona has had Mail in voting for 70 years.   I don't know about the other states in question.  So where was the big Democrat conspiracy to institute voting by Mail.  
 

Mark the only voter fraud with Mail in voting on record in the last two elections was done be Republicans in a NC Congressional Race and in PA race.  So Mark where is your basis to throw stones at the Democrats other than  repeating the usual Trump Baloney that's just like the Qnon Baloney.  It's all BALONEY.  Trump is a big lying comman period.  
 

Mark I suggest you watch the interview on CNN of Congressman Cauthorne no matter how you thinks it's Fake News.  Can't say it's fake news because you can watch him speak yourself.  Cauthorne tries all the usual Trump mass voter fraud fraud baloney and the interviewer whittles down all his BALONEY Trump lies.  At the end Cauthorne concedes no mass voter fraud and BIDEN WON THE ELECTION FAIR AND SQUARE.  
 

The above all being said what is really scary to me is a Bulk of the Evangelicals would have no problem with Trump overthrowing our Government and making himself President for life   A lot of the Evangelicals involved in the assault hailed from that Charismatic Network led by men claiming  to be Apostles and Prophets   These Prophets claimed God directly spoke to them and said Donald Trump will be the President over Biden   This group are also Domiomists and believe making Evangelical Christianity a state religion ie A Christian Saudi Arabia   
 

I say a lot of Evangelicals would support Trump being President for life even though the above violates the first Amendment in spades ♠️  I say at what price to get abortion and gay marriage outlawed   You think Trump's White Supremacist Thugs are not going to want a free hand in putting the African Americans and other minorities in there place   I say Id take 100 Bidens if freely elected over a Trump Dictatorship where Jim Crow would return but we got abortion outlawed and we are jailing those gays   
 

Mark I'd have to question any Christian  voting for Trump the second time after with his own words said the White Supremacists were his guys ie  Proud Boys Stand Back and Stand By   Mark Trump also supported the Michigan Militia led by Men my age   I recognized them in the interview Mark   They were prior associates with Timothy McVeigh and Company   McVeigh was a follower of the Turner Diaries and killed 182 of my fellow employees and in that count were 10 Babies and 10 Toddlers    There was three main groups back then   The Identity Church the Sword and Something and the Posse Comitatis  The Posse were the Tax Protestors and thats who I dealt with   The others were blowing up abortion clinics and shooting Abortion Doctors By throwing in with Donald a second time the Evangelicals threw in with this crowd  We should all think about that before we so quickly point the finger and say Demon Democrats  I say the Christian Right's sin is throwing in with this lot   Why do you think Senator Portman quite   Portman knows that the Senators who have no problem with White Supremacists and killers are not going to convict Donald Trump their Demigod  
 

I'm supporting Chris Christie if he runs in 2024   Christie said if he was a Senator he would vote to convict Trump   If they can't convict Trump why bother with any impeachments  any more   Sorry state of affairs for the Republican Party   Like I said I'd take a 100 Bidens freely elected before I'd take Trump or a Trump copy

 

Joeb, your responses here are a little on the kooky side, with all due respect.

I read several PA newspaper articles on what the PA legislature voted for in reforming election laws and you might want to reread what you think you know. You are wrong, sir.

When I lived in Colorado, there was even a little radio station out of Johnstown that friends of mine listened to--we affectionately dubbed it "conspiracy talk radio."  

There are two tacks that we ought to take with this.  First of all, just because QAnon is associated with allegations of voter fraud does not mean that all of those who would suggest a degree of vote fraud are with QAnon.  Many of us simply see the voting rule changes that many states enacted as not only impermissible loosening of voting laws, and we simply disagree with the court rulings that upheld them.  Correlation is not causation, and there are sound reasons to be skeptical of the process many states followed this year.

However, I would agree that there is a certain tendency of fundagelicals to fall for conspiracy theories, and the big question is why.  I would suggest that at least part of the problem is that certain pastors select their congregation by their willingness to accept breaches of basic logic.  For example, those who use Frank Garlock's arguments against modern music are being trained to accept arguments based on guilt by association fallacies.  Those who preach KJVO theories are doing the same, and are also training listeners to accept a large amount of personal attacks.

If we're going to be a people of the Word, we're going to need to be a people who handles verbal statements correctly and with sound logic.  If we want to prevent the embarrassment of being found following a lot of nonsense arguments spread by QAnon and others, we have to start policing ourselves in other areas.

Mark_Smith wrote:

The Election problems are obvious. In the six months before the elections Democrats went to court all over the country to get election rules changed "because of COVID." These are factual events, not conspiracies. The idea was to loosen the restrictions on voting by mail and absentee "for public health." The result was that many ballots were accepted this time that NEVER would have been counted before.

That doesn't prove massive voter fraud.  Just because rules are changed and less restrictions exists on voting.  It was confirmed by the courts, the secretary of state, the state certification and the senate certification.  Trump was mad about Georgia, but every complaint was debunked, 3 recounts which confirmed that the Dominion machines were okay, and signature verification audit by law enforcement that showed not a single error, plus gave a greater than 99.99% statistical confidence rate on all of the signature verifications.  Trump kept throwing out kooky ideas and QAnon ate it up.  Practically no shred of evidence for any inconsistencies or fraud, which is actually pretty amazing, yet people ate up that Trump was espousing millions of votes were fraudulent across the country, all being fed by a few lawyers and Trumps inner circle.  Regardless of how tight the voter fraud people were to QAnon, they wre all crazy.

A lot of the Evangelicals involved in the assault hailed from that Charismatic Network led by men claiming  to be Apostles and Prophets   These Prophets claimed God directly spoke to them and said Donald Trump will be the President over Biden   This group are also Domiomists and believe making Evangelical Christianity a state religion ie A Christian Saudi Arabia   

Dominion theology (not the voting machines) has been around long before Trump and Q.  If Q morphs into another form of dominion theology, then it is definitely something to be concerned about.  The problem is that now Q can morph into anything people want it to.

I am not convinced however, that the original Q is directly related to dominion theology. 

In order to understand Q, we need to understand that there is someone with the code name Q who posts information from time to time and then there are those who call themselves Q followers and often post things unrelated to the original Q.

I do not follow Q, but spoke to a relative who does.  She says that most of what we see that is attributed to Q is not even Q.  (That almost sounds like a conspiracy inside a conspiracy).  She went on to explain that what has happened is that there are a whole slew of bloggers etc that are cashing in on the Q craze and essentially saying that they have special (gnostic) information based on the insights they get from Q.  IE they use the Q label to sell the ideas that they suck out of their thumb.  What was really interesting is that when I asked her about Q a couple of weeks ago, she said that Q had been mostly silent for the last couple of months.  It has been interesting to actually talk to someone who follows Q instead of someone who follows people who claim to follow Q.  It sounds like Q has turned into a catch letter for every crazy idea out there and the crazies are using Q to cash in.

I also recently heard that Q and Anon are two different things and are being combined by some.  I have not looked into that.  I really am not all that interested in Q or Anon, but have had conversations with those who are (these are people who agree that a lot of this stuff is crazy).  I just thought I would pass on the little info I have that I got from those in the know (that is kind of what this whole thing seems to be about- passing on special secret info)

Whenever conspiracy theories come up on SI, I wonder why we don't do much to address Russian collusion.  Other than finding that Russians spent money on promoting both Trump and Clinton in 2016, there was no evidence of Trump actually working with them.  More people in the church were affected by the Russian conspiracy than by Q from what I have seen.

dgszweda wrote:

 

Mark_Smith wrote:

 

The Election problems are obvious. In the six months before the elections Democrats went to court all over the country to get election rules changed "because of COVID." These are factual events, not conspiracies. The idea was to loosen the restrictions on voting by mail and absentee "for public health." The result was that many ballots were accepted this time that NEVER would have been counted before.

 

 

That doesn't prove massive voter fraud.  Just because rules are changed and less restrictions exists on voting.  It was confirmed by the courts, the secretary of state, the state certification and the senate certification.  Trump was mad about Georgia, but every complaint was debunked, 3 recounts which confirmed that the Dominion machines were okay, and signature verification audit by law enforcement that showed not a single error, plus gave a greater than 99.99% statistical confidence rate on all of the signature verifications.  Trump kept throwing out kooky ideas and QAnon ate it up.  Practically no shred of evidence for any inconsistencies or fraud, which is actually pretty amazing, yet people ate up that Trump was espousing millions of votes were fraudulent across the country, all being fed by a few lawyers and Trumps inner circle.  Regardless of how tight the voter fraud people were to QAnon, they wre all crazy.

I didn't say "massive voter fraud."

I didn't talk about Dominion voting machines.

Once mail-in ballots were opened and accepted there is no way to go back and to confirm the mail-in ballot.

Are you telling me that accepting thousands (or maybe tens or hundreds of thousands) of improperly filled out absentee and mail-in ballots is not a concern?

Stop calling me crazy.

I've never once heard or read anything by anyone QAnon.

Why are we so concerned about Q when there is also a conspiracy theory that a whole bunch of people conspired to bring forth made up evidence of voter fraud?  The conspiracy theory suggests that Donald Trump is guiding a whole bunch of people to lie under oath about what they saw.  This theory is having more of an effect on the church than Qanon.  In fact, even moderators on a fundamental Christian forum have fallen for this conspiracy theory.

Mark_Smith wrote:

Are you telling me that accepting thousands (or maybe tens or hundreds of thousands) of improperly filled out absentee and mail-in ballots is not a concern?

Stop calling me crazy.

Fake news.  No evidence.  60 court cases found no evidence.  Secretary of States found no evidence.  Homeland Security found no evidence.  DOJ found no evidence.....  But I understand, a tweet from the President or Rudy has definitely more weighting than any of these.

dgszweda wrote:

 

Mark_Smith wrote:

 

Are you telling me that accepting thousands (or maybe tens or hundreds of thousands) of improperly filled out absentee and mail-in ballots is not a concern?

Stop calling me crazy.

 

 

Fake news.  No evidence.  60 court cases found no evidence.  Secretary of States found no evidence.  Homeland Security found no evidence.  DOJ found no evidence.....  But I understand, a tweet from the President or Rudy has definitely more weighting than any of these.

The rules of the election were changed in the months before the election to allow looser acceptance of ballots. Thus, when LEO and DOJ look, they find "nothing" because the rules were changed. We need to go back to the old rules.

All 9 Justices on the US Supreme Court twice and 60 Federal and State judges in unison essentially said Donald Trump's claim of mass voter fraud due to Mail in Ballots was absolutely FALSE. 

Actually the Supreme Court never took the case, so we cannot make that statement.  Further,  Justices Thomas and Alito wanted to take the case so it was not all 9 justices.  Further on the state levels there were split decisions among the courts about hearing the cases.  None of the cases were even heard and multiple justices were giving strong dissenting opinions saying the cases should have been heard. 

There is a difference between the court acknowledging that someone wants a case to be heard and saying "no" and actually hearing the case.  What happened with all the election cases was that the court said "no."  None of the cases were actually tried.  That is why this issue is still not settled and how the word "FACT" used in relation to fraud charges being debunked is inaccurate.

Mark_Smith wrote:

The rules of the election were changed in the months before the election to allow looser acceptance of ballots. Thus, when LEO and DOJ look, they find "nothing" because the rules were changed. We need to go back to the old rules.

Rules changing is not illegal.  Many states do it and have done it.  There is a long line of precedence and the same activities were carried out in Republican winning states.  The funny thing is that everyone claims voter inconsistency for President, but the same ballots that contained the winning Republican Senators and Congressman those votes were okay.  This is why it was never challenged or thrown out in court, because it was legal and the legislature did not put up any red flags when they certified the election.

JD Miller wrote:

None of the cases were actually tried.  That is why this issue is still not settled and how the word "FACT" used in relation to fraud charges being debunked is inaccurate.

Because there was no proof.  Read the findings.  Most of them lambasted the attorneys who brought these cases and some judges were getting close to holding them in contempt and fining them.  Why do you think they fizzled out?  First, none of the courts were having any of it and second, none of the attorneys wanted to be disbarred as these shenanigans continued.

Joeb wrote:

Mark you are a Trumper.   So no matter what I say you will say it's false.   All 9 Justices on the US Supreme Court twice and 60 Federal and State judges in unison essentially said Donald Trump's claim of mass voter fraud due to Mail in Ballots was absolutely FALSE.   GA reconfirmed that in spades ♠️ in all their repeated counts and audits.  Qnon and Trump are just plain lying machines.  For you Mark to try to throw a hint of fraud by your claims and concoct some mass Democratic conspiracy is absolutely wrong.  
 

Unfortunately scare tactics and misinformation are the big Evangelical Money Maker.  Foolish  Evangelicals give money to support these very foolish Christian Right initiatives instead of supporting the local church and changing hearts and minds through Christ.   Very sad for the young Pastors underpaid unappreciated and in the trenches who are out their expanding the Lord's Kingdom.  
 

Your Trump buddies tried to overthrow our Government based totally on Qnon and Trump lies.   Any Evangelical/Fundy Christian at that last rally are in sin period and in my opinion are COP KILLERS.   Plus they killed their own people by being foolish.  Stomped that young wife to death who ironically was carrying a DONT TREAD ON ME flag.  The woman that got shot was a justifiable use of deadly force by the Police Officer given the circumstances.  

When those people were trying to breach the doors yelling we are going to kill you all I would have emptied every clip I had except one backup into that crowd.  The only reason the Police Officers did not use more deadly force is they knew the attackers IN VIOLATION OF DC CRIMIMAL LAW were well armed.  So Mark they were Criminals before even entering the Capital.  One Pastor in the crowd said the violence was BIBLICALLY justified.  
 

If Trump ran again Mark I suspect you would support Trump again.  Just be honest.  Sadly like Hitler Trump will make a comeback and this time like Hitler he will make himself President for Life and the Congress and Senate will only serve to be advisors.  Even if he loses the vote again this time Trump will seize power by overwhelming force of the barrel of a gun and will be absolutely brutal with his followers assassinating every Democrat they can get their hands on and any Republican proven to be disloyal.    Trump will not make the same mistake twice.  Over the next four years he will brood and want total revenge as civil and criminal courts will try to take him apart legally.  On his rebound he will be deadlier than ever and again the Evangelicals will flock to his cause for 2024 with his promise of vanquishing the Demon Democrats and Outright outlawing abortion and gay marriage.  
 

Maybe it's God's will for the sin of this Country equally shared by extremists on both sides.  We are no where to be found in the last days Biblical Prophecies so Trump maybe our Leader that leads us to our demise into a Police State.  It seems to many Fundy/Evangelicals desire this to overcome abortion and gay marriage and Trump will deliver as long as he can enrich himself and his corrupt family.  Oh Trump will probably trade Melania in for a new 20 something beautiful model so will get a whole new First Lady.  

Joeb, you are so full of it you don't even know what you are talking about. I was put on a block to this blog for over a year where my posts had to be approved by Jim or Aaron for a TENTH of the bull, presumptions, and lies you wrote about me.

Mark if your not a Trumper why further the voter fraud lie and allege some grand Democrat Conspiracy. It's that simple Mark.  Sadly you can't bring yourself to say Trump is a conman and a liar who cost 5 people's lives for a lie.  That's the truth. The only reason the Senators won't convict Trump is his Thugs are already making threats to the Senators lives.  
 

Just say Joe your right about that but I won't support Trump again. Easy to do.  Not hard.   Therefore you were wrong about me.  If I'm wrong I apologize.  

The only reason Senators won't support the impeachment is because Trump's thugs are making threats?  How do you know that?  How can you discern the motives of another's heart?  How do you know that these Senators do not have legal and constitutional reasons that cause them to believe that impeaching a man who is no longer in office is purposeless if not illegal?  

What is the purpose of impeachment?  Isn't it to consider evidence that someone is not fit for office and to remove him from office if the evidence warrants it?

Some of the greatest constitutional minds (including Democrats) have declared this unconstitutional.  But somehow you know the workings of these Senators minds to declare that their reasons have nothing to do with  sincere objections to what they consider to be an illegal procedure?  Amazing.

In an effort to help people calm down, I offer this picture of a kitten ...

This is a kitten after the new executive order from President Biden.  Just because it was born a dinosaur does not mean it cannot identify as a kitten.

Seriously, from what I've seen, there are two major reasons Republicans aren't supporting conviction.  First, many are convinced that you can't do it to someone who's left office. I disagree, but that's part of the rationale.  Others are not convinced that what Trump is accused of doing really isn't any worse than what a lot of Democrats have done, including Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi, and others who were encouraging riots that were far more destructive and lethal.  

Could it be threats from Drumpf?  Well, I'm going to need to see some evidence for that, including witnesses who are willing to be named.  

you are so clueless. I will not vote for Trump again. I've said that before on this blog! I've repeatedly said Trump made all kinds of mistakes.

But I am deeply concerned at the injustice of the 2020 election. State legislatures have the sole authority to establish election procedures, not secretaries of state or local officials. Also, voter id is a must. 

Mark all the State People to my knowledge in the contested states said repeatedly NO MASS VOTER FRAUD.  Most were Republican.  What did they get for their trouble death threats by Trump Thugs.  So where is your concern for the integrity come from unless your basing it on the Trump lies and Qnon.  I'd think you'd be more concerned about the safety of the State Election  employees.  It's obvious TRUMPERS were not concerned.  
 

Bert you make a good point but it doesn't matter because the Senate is not going to convict Trump.  Trump will be back in 2024. If he didn't do all his dirty deeds and lies I'd have no problem if he ran again as long as Trump honored the Voter box.  No Mass Voter Fraud 2.
To all believers the Demon Democrats are taking over.  They're not going to take over  Far from it.  
 

Bernie Mittons Sanders already said if the Democrats don't make things better by 2022 the Republicans will be in charge of the Senate again.  Bottom line Americans vote for their pocket books.  All the rest of nonsense is noise.

Trump will say the Magic words in 2024 that he will Outlaw Abortion and Gay Marriage and the Evangelicals will line up for him again.   

Joe, my thought is that by 2024, Trump is going to decline physically a bunch.  He clearly put on 30-40 lbs in the White House and has lost a lot of vigor already.  Four more years of brooding and putting down the Big Macs is not going to help him, and since his candidacy depends even more on image than the average politician, that's going to kill his hopes, IMO.

Regarding the state legislatures, they really didn't have a choice.  They did not, for whatever reason, intervene when voting restrictions were (illegally and foolishly IMO) loosened for the epidemic, and then they had results that they could either approve, or throw out the election altogether--you can't just remove ballots once they're counted.

At this point, my take is that people who care about our republic have two years to start taking a very good look at who voted, how many people were at certain addresses, how often they voted, whether they are felons or dead, and other factors that would clearly indicate fraudulent voting.  If you demonstrate that a lot of votes are likely not real, the liberal mantra "elections are fair" becomes much harder to sustain.

To draw a picture, we are the only nation with widespread mail voting that did things the way we did--in Europe, mail voting is far more regulated than here.  So to argue that fraud is not a big issue is to deny the lessons those other countries have learned, some the hard way.